[everyplace]

Honestly, I don't really know where else to turn about this problem. Over the past week, a serious problem (definitely mac related) has occurred, and I don't know what to do about this. First, some background on me, and my father, who this computer-related issue happend to.

I'm currently a Package Designer by day and a Web Application Developer by night in NYC. In the past, I've been a systems administrator and a mac technician, amongst other things. The point being that computers are my life, and in my years of professional experience, macs have always been my specialty.

My father is a mathematician. Its funny, because when I say that, people are either puzzled or don't even know what to make of it. Its weird though, because he's one of those people who comes up with competing theories of the universe, but isn't insane. As in he's considered one of the better theoretical physicists in the world, has an absurd amount of papers, publications, even a theorm named after him. The point is that he's really at the top of his game when it comes to his profession, and a lot of the people he works with have been knighted in england for their contributions to the world at large, or are long overdue for nobel prizes. Prestegious work, in other words.

Anyway, despite what you may think by this previous paragraph about my dad, his work is not lucrative, financially. He works at a university in a medium-sized town in the USA, who's metropolitan area has around a million people. He's a tenured professor, who's had the same position since he moved to this country around 27 years ago. As such, his salary is piss poor.

He has always used the computers that his university has provided for him, and I've always helped him get the most out of them. His history of machines : Mac Plus, Mac Se, Power Mac 8100, Beige G3 233, ibook 800 14". I was a bit confused when they gave him an ibook instead of a powerbook for their last purchase, what with software like maple and mathematica taking advantage of the g4 processors found in the powerbook and desktop line, but there wasn't really anything he could do about it.

In the less than 2 years he's owned his ibook, it has been serviced 4 times. All for the logic board problem. Really. Almost on the dot, every 6 months, it has crapped out. The last time, between #3 and #4, it was 4 months. Its ridiculous.

Anyway, due to always consulting him about this problem every time it went wrong, I became very familiar with both the symptoms of this problem, and the ramifications, one of which is that his data was always fine. The first 2 times the logic board died, the machine was under the 1-year applecare, and was fixed fine. I opted to pay for a $100 data backup fee, just to be safe. The second 2 times, it was covered under both extended applecare plan, and the logic-board recall program. The 3rd time, I paid for the data backup fee, the 4th time they no-longer offered it, but said it wouldn't be a problem at all.

So, he sends it off at the end of august for the 4th time, and it comes back to him the next week, and it still doesn't work. It came back too quickly, and it ended up apple screwed up and just sent it back without doing anything to it. So I call to schedule the 5th pickup of the machine, and to my surprise they offer a replacement computer!

I was really excited, because they offered him a 1ghz ibook g4 as a replacement. This isn't an amazing machine by todays standards, but of course the g4 and added clock speeds were going to make a huge difference for his week-long calculations. During the return conversation, the proceedure was that we send the machine off to their processing department, and then they send the new machine to him. Cool, I said, but what about the data?

I said to the tech on the phone that because of my experience with the previous times this happened, I knew that it was just the computer hardware that had failed, and that the HD was fine. I suggested that I remove the drive, mount it in an external case, back up the data, put it back in, and then send it to them. The tier-2 tech said that this would void the warranty, and that I should take it to an apple store. Lucky for me, one had just opened in the city my dad lived in.

* As a side note, I haven't lived in this city for quite some time now, but go back about once a month. It just so happened that I was home for this exchange with apple, and as with every time before, I had made the arrangements for my dad. He hates talking with people on the phone about service-related issues.

I went to the applestore on day 2 of it being open, and they looked up the case history of this particular machine, who's serial I had memorized from calling about it so many times before. The mac genuis, after reviewing the history, and seeing that it was approved for a replacement, waived the data backup fee, and said he would back up the machine at no cost. I didn't really care about the cost, because the data on the machine was worth far more than any fee they could have charged. I explained to the tech what went wrong, and how to recover the data, to save him some time. He completely agreed with my summary of both the problem and solution, and said he'd do it that night. One of the stipulations with this arrangement though was that they would only hold the data for 30 days.

On day 3 of the store being open, my dad got the call that his machine was ready to be picked up. So he went there, and they gave him the wrong mahcine. He didn't notice, because his computer was dead, so he didn't even bother turning it on. They called me later that night though, after realizing that they gave him the wrong machine, desperate to get a hold of him before he sent it off to the replacement center. Also, during this conversation I asked the genius if the data backup went well, and he said yes, it went exactly as I had said, he had to remove the drive, mount it in an external case and it worked perfectly.

On day 4 of the store being open, two things happend. The first is that in the evening, my dad brought back the incorrect machine given to him, and got his back. The second thing is that the applestore received a software update for their machines at the store, which re-imaged everything there, erasing the 1 existing backup of my dad's machine.

On day 5 of the store being open, my dad sent his machine off to the replacement center.

On day 11 of the store being open, my sister had her first baby.

On day 20, my dad still hadn't received his new machine from apple. I called them, and they said it had shipped only that morning from Taiwan, and gave me the fedex tracking number, scheduled to arrive on day 25.

On day 21, I went back to the city to see my sister's baby. While in town, I went to the applestore to talk with them about how I had the tracking number for the new machine, and appologized for not having been back sooner, wanting to check to make sure they would still have the data on day 25, even though it would have only been the 23rd day they had held his information.

After wandering for a few minutes, they told me that the geniuses couldn't find the information, but said they had files all over the place, and perhaps another tech had it under his login. I gave them my phone number again and asked them to call me the following day, as I was only in town for 40 hours and couldn't stop back.

On day 23, my dad called me, saying that his new computer had arrived, and that he was extremely happy with it. I hadn't told him about my trip to the store two days previous, because I was incredibly worried, and didn't want to upset him, because they gave no indication that it was gone.

I called the applestore right away, and talked with the head tech guy, who I had spoken with on the most recent trip there. He said, with certainty, they no longer had his information. I didn't even know what to say. It was so far beyond anything I could have really expected. This is the first time I heard about the software update that the store had received, re-imaging their systems and losing my dad's data. He said he would put in a request to see where his old machine was, to recover the data that way.

I called apple's 800# tech support, got ahold of a tier-2 tech who tracked down his old machine only far enough to know that it had already been scrapped, and that there was no system in place to track where parts from what system had gone to where.

I called the applestore back, and told them that. In the evening, the same guy who I had spoken with both earlier that day and the few days prior at the store, called me back to tell me that they had begun running data recovery tools on their machines, and that he would put in a formal request for the previous machine. I told him that the chances of a multi-gig image file surviving constant writes and re-writes over the course of 3 weeks was highly unlikely, and he agreed.

My dad is one of those users who knows about computers only so far as to become intimate with the programs that he knows. He can write up some LaTex files like no-one's business, publish quick websites using latex2html for his students, write equations that take a week to run in Maple, and whatnot. But he couldn't burn a cd for the life of him, even with the finder cd-burning integration.

So there weren't any other backups.

At this point, you can call me dumb for not going ahead with the backup myself, but although I was right in my diagnosis of the solution, I didn't want to jeopardize the chance of him not being eligible for this new machine. And besides that, when I was at the store with the machine, explaining to the guy what was wrong and how to handle it, I re-affirmed again that I was completely capable of doing the backup, but he insisted.

The same guy called me back today confirming what I already knew, that both a) the data was unrecoverable, and b) the original computer had already been processed.

So many things are wrong with this situation, but here are the most prominent:

1) My father was still in posession of the machine when they erased the data. Had they told me or him at this point that they needed to back it up again, we would have had the data.

2) They waited almost 3 weeks to tell me that they had lost the information. Had they told me sooner, its chances of recovery would have been much greater, along with the fact that the original machine could very well have been recovered from the scrapping process.

3) I was fully capable of doing this backup, but was told by 2 sources (applecare 800#, and the tech at the store) not to.

4) This is incredibly important information. I mean, I use my macs for serious work, and would be crushed if I lost everything I had. But my work seems insignificant on the grander scale of things, as compared to the information he works with.

Here's the question: What can I do about this? I love apple to death, and am one of the biggest supporters of their technology and platform you can find. But I am extremely unhappy with the way this store has handled things. The way things have been left at the moment is that the store manager (who has been on vacation for a week, due to return this weekend) will call me regarding the manner. The man who I previously have spoken with multiple times has given me the indication that some sort of compensation is being considered, but franky I don't think they realize the severity of this screw-up.

I am seriously considering pursuing this case legally, but have no idea what my rights are in this situation. I've talked with my dad about the loss of data, he said its basically going to take him 2 years of solid work to recover from this, from a research and publication standpoint. I'm not opposed to contacting lawyers for advice, but I've never had the pleasure of interacting with them before, and when you do a search like "technology lawyers in nyc" the results are a little daunting.

But maybe that's not the way to do with this? I just don't know. I never dreamed of being in this situation.

The guy at the store said "What type of result are you looking for in this?" and I said "I just want the data back, and if that fails I don't even know what."

[storer]

Well, thats a big long post. I can't say anything but "Good Luck" with my knowledge, but I will take a wild guess and say you won't get the data back. The apple store should have known better than that, and the tech shouldn't have allowed it to happen.

[everyplace]

Yeah, the applestore has already said that I won't get the data back. But, of course, I already knew that. Their "official" request for the old machine got the same response that I found out by calling the 800#, that the machine had already been processed. It just took longer for them to tell me than it did to find out myself.

That's part of the reason why I'm so perplexed. I've already given up on the data. Its gone. But leaving this as just "you royally screwed me over, thanks" is just not right.

This is what makes the situation so bad. I would _love_ to pay someone thousands of dollars to recover the data. I know this is possible with technology these days, and there are companies to specialize in this. But this isn't an option for me, because the drive has no way of being tracked. You know, unless I was able to purchase every apple machine that appears refurbished on the market for the next 6 months. And that is even more impossible.

-everyplace

[storer]

If you took them to court they would try to point out that if the data was worth that much then it should have been backed up, so thats a problem.

[ringo]

Sad story. This is truly the most painful way to learn the importance of making regular backups of important data. I totally agree that the handling of the situation screwed you over, but not making regular backups of important data screwed your father over just as badly. Ignorance is no excuse, learning to burn a CD would have taken twenty minutes and would have given your father personal accountability for his data instead of having to depend on someone else to preserve his work. Sorry if that sounds harsh, consider it an expensive lesson learned.

[everyplace]

I know, but that's exactly the point. I said I was going to back it up, and on two occaisions they told me not to! This is one of the things that bothers me the most about the whole debacle. I knew the data was safe on the harddrive, I knew apple had facilities and expertise to do the backing up of the data, so I wasn't worried about it to leave it in their hands. And when I called the day after it was backed up, and they said it was fine, I was validated in both my thoughts on my capabilities of backing it up and the problems that were with the machine.

It is just so frustrating.

[storer]

i meant backed up by your dad in the pasy. like ringo has said, its an expensive lesson learnt.

[TETENAL]

NO BACKUP!

There are certain things that you just need to know. Play with scissors at the power plug: you get a very painful shock. Never refill the oil in your car: the engine will blow up eventually. Don't do backups: you will lose your data.

Your father is a mathematics professor at a university. So he knows how to teach people. He should also know how to educate himself. He refused to, it is no-ones fault but his own's. You may blame the Apple store, but sooner or later this would have bitten him anyway one way or the other.

[everyplace]

Look, obviously I know the ramifications of not having backups. I make regular backups of my own work, in addition to working off of a 0+1 raid at work, so this concept is not lost to me at all.

The problem that I have is that this goes beyond the obvious "you don't have a backup, you're an idiot" because I made provisions to get that backup made, and then it was destroyed, and the negligence of informing me of this caused the original to be destoyed as well. That's where my problem lies.

[chris v]

At least look to this not happening again in the future. A hard drive can fail randomly at any time. If you're father's a mathematician, surely he can understand the statistical probabilities at work here. Buy him a firewire external hard drive, and teach him how to back his data up to that device. Better yet, use an application like Retrospect or CarbonCopyCloner to do this automatically at regular intervals. With an automatic backup schedule in place, all your dad will be responsible for is making sure that the drive is plugged in via Firewire at the times the scheduled backups are to take place.

That, and wring the bloody neck of the so-called "Genius." I personally think he should lose his job, as he has behaved in a rather negligent manner. I am certain, however that you have no recourse for legal satisfaction from Apple, inc., at least monetarily.

[druber]

My understanding, from times I've had to take my iBook's in for logic board repairs, is that the backup is done long enough for them to wipe the drive and do the repair, then they dump the data back down (and only if they actually do that should you be charged the $$, as well). If a wipe was necessary, they would either wipe it and go or do their best to back it up if you'd signed the dotted line or whatever. But they weren't providing a full back-up service, if that makes sense.

I'm sure Apple has a policy regarding their back-up-for-repair service. Get the written version, if at all possible, and see what it says. I'm afraid it may be more of a good-faith agreement than a contract: a, we'll do our best to save your data and get it to your next machine, but it's not our fault if it doesn't work. Is it at all possible that you have a copy of the system profile information? That lists the serial number of the specific hard drive, I believe.

Apple isn't ultimately responsible for data loss. They're always telling people, back your data up, back your data up. Because you don't know when the hardware might go south, and while the hardware is replaceable, the data isn't. I'm a writer, and I know I'd be beside myself if I lost all my old ClarisWorks docs. So I back it up, even just the essential stuff instead of the whole thing, to other hard drives and now and then to CD. It's one case where being paranoid is all right.

I know that's no news and no comfort. This matter probably rests mostly on the agreement you made with the tech. I can't quite imagine which update they downloaded that required erasing a hard drive. But I can't quite imagine what they could do for you now, without getting lawyers involved.

[MindFad]

Wow, that sucks. Sorry to hear about it. This just scared me into backing up (jeez, it's been almost a month!). I've learned the lost data lesson before.

[TETENAL]

You had backups been made after it was too late. Multiple times even! That's not idiocy, that's ignorance.

The idea is to make regular backups while everything is still working all right. Otherwise your father could have lost all his data any second. Just dropping the iBook or having it stolen could be enough and all the data is gone.

[zigzag]

The Apple warranty excludes liability for consequential damages, including data loss. However, your father might be able to argue that when they agreed to back up the data, they made a new contract, breached it, and are liable for the data loss.

I'm an attorney. PM me and I'll see if I can help.

[pathogen]

I see room here for a possible lawsuit, but it would be tricky.

They had your backup data done (at no charge - representing good faith that all would be taken care of) and left you with the "impression" (you substitute the right wording there) that the new machine would arrive in time for them to replace the data onto the new laptop. That was the agreement. Apple failed in that agreement (verbal contract), and as a consequence can be held liable for civil damages (what the data was worth to your dad). Apple frequently states they can't be held liable for a whole slew of things that might go wrong, but that doesn't mean you can't argue that they should be held liable in a court of law if they first break their own contract.

This is tricky, because you have to be certain that the Apple store agreed to replace the data on the new ibook (which was Apple Care's responsibility - and by extension, the Apple Store's - to do in a timely and professional manner). The machine took too long to arrive, they didn't backup your backup as a precaution (usually they do this to DVDs, and I don't know why they didn't mention they could do that), and they lost your data without warning you.

You have a case, if what I said is true. But, you have to assume that they would try to find every point where you would be liable for the problem, and part of that would be telling you you should have kept a better backup before things went haywire with the iBook the first time. However, remember, that point is moot because the issue is what they failed to do, not what you failed to do, and no one can sue your father for not doing a backup because your father never had a verbal agreement with apple to do that. (no one does!)

[Captain Obvious]

Wait, the University bought this laptop?
Then have their legal department handle it. I am not sure why the school's tech support did not take on this project but as nice of you as it was to help him out you should have let them deal with this from the start. The damages were done to university property not to your father. You may not even be able to bring suit.

I got a little lost in your story details but do you have proof, as in written proof, that when the unit was left with them the order stated that the data be backed up? I don�t know what the repair contract says but I bet that Apple does not assume complete liability if something like this happens. You might get something but I doubt you are going to get whatever value you think the data is worth. Either way, you should hand this over to the school.

[ort888]

I think you have a good case. I would suggest calling a lawyer and seeing what they say.

[everyplace]

The university's tech department is basically ignorant when it comes to macs. They (the math tech dept team) basically just hand over Macs and say "here, it's your problem" as they only have hundreds of dells, half and half Win XP and RedHat 9. I had to sign a form stating that I was turning over the machine to them, and that they were doing work on it.

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Wait, the University bought this laptop?
Then have their legal department handle it. I am not sure why the school's tech support did not take on this project but as nice of you as it was to help him out you should have let them deal with this from the start. The damages were done to university property not to your father. You may not even be able to bring suit.

I got a little lost in your story details but do you have proof, as in written proof, that when the unit was left with them the order stated that the data be backed up? I don�t know what the repair contract says but I bet that Apple does not assume complete liability if something like this happens. You might get something but I doubt you are going to get whatever value you think the data is worth. Either way, you should hand this over to the school.

[everyplace]

I'm not one of these people thinking "Oh man, an opportunity to make pots of money!" And claim that this lost data was gold. All I want is a way for my dad to be able to make up for lost time, 'cause this is really bad.

[SQLDba]

Let me first say that I sympathize with your situation. I am a database administrator and get paid to make sure my data is always available.

That said, I have some serious problems with your story and should you want to pursue it legally, I don't think you'd have much of a chance. Here are my problems with what you described.

1) Your father is a lifetime mac user - from System 8 on up to OS X and he hasn't learned to back up his data? He's making up theorems about the universe but not backing them up?

2) You are an app developer, mac consultant and former systems admin and you haven't shown him how to back up his data, or do it for him regularly? Your resume of expertise and your father's history with the mac only server to bolster the argument that you should have known better than the "average" user.

(here is where your story really falls apart)

3) He's been working on a laptop for nearly 2 years that has a history of problems....4 times in that time period - and he doesn't start backing up his data? If you drive a car without a spare tire, after the 4th flat don't you go buy a spare?

4) He's sent his ibook in 3 previous times and NEVER backed up his data first? I know they warn you that they can't guarantee the safety of your data - or even your OS - when you send a system in for service. He's ignored those warnings?

5) You have this priceless data on the hard drive - and have the store back it up - and never ask for a copy of it on DVD or CDs? You never check the quality of the backup but just assume that it's safe? Sorry sir, but rule #1 is that data is NEVER backed up UNTIL it has successfully been restored.

6) The apple store gives your dad the wrong ibook back - and at that point you don't check to see that the backup is good? Heck, if they mixed the ibooks up, my first thought would be that they backed up the data on the wrong ibook as well. Big red flags here that you are ignoring....

(my biggest problem with this story)

7) This laptop was one that was given to him by his employer. Even if it's a small town university or whatever - they obviously have some type of IT department. He should be dealing with them - and NOT doing all this leg work himself. That part just doesn't make sense to me.

Bottom line - you trusted another person or persons with the safety of data that you (or your father) were ultimately responsible for. You (he) had ample opportunity to back up this data over the last 2 years - yet you (he) continued to ignore basic data safety on a machine that had a clear history of problems. The fact that you lost no data the previous 3 times was nothing but dumb luck.

I have little doubt that apple has clear guidelines and warnings about who holds the responsibility for your machine's data - and I know that isn't them. I know this is heart breaking, but simply put - you can't in good faith look to lay the blame on Apple when the machine has never been backed up in 2 years. That is unforgivable. If it has value, it needs to be backed up. Period.

You (or your father) own this one yourselves.....

My 2 cents.

[Laauuren]

I don't know enough of the specific details of what happened according to you or according to Apple, or what was promised to you, and if any definite promises were even made, and I am just a student and NOT a lawyer. That in mind, if you are really looking to bring a lawsuit then you might consider looking up "conversion" or at the very least "trespass to chattels" online. Make sure your sources are credible, and see if you think your case would pass the "test" regarding the requirements for bringing that action.

[everyplace]

See, the thing with this, I was strongly concerned with this fact. That's why, the day afterwards, I called the store to make sure the data was successfully backed up, and talked to the tech who did it, and he verified that it was successfully backed up.

Originally posted by SQLDba:


5) You have this priceless data on the hard drive - and have the store back it up - and never ask for a copy of it on DVD or CDs? You never check the quality of the backup but just assume that it's safe? Sorry sir, but rule #1 is that data is NEVER backed up UNTIL it has successfully been restored.

[Spliffdaddy]

Don't worry. The data on the disk couldn't have been important. If it was important, there would be more than one copy.


I get to say that a lot where I work. People look at me like I'm crazy.

[Xeo]

I'm incredibly astonished right now. My mind has been blown. I'm sorry that this happened, but I just can't believe that 2 years of work, incredibly important work, had absolutely no backup of any kind. My mind just can't wrap around it. I mean, after the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd time the iBook died, always with the chance of data loss, that one backup wasn't made. This would have saved everything but a few months, at the least. But I'm sorry. I'm not trying to sound like the perfect computer user that backs-up daily. I, myself, only started backing up on a regular basis a few weeks ago. Before that I had no real backup. But then again, my stuff isn't my life's work. It's my life's play. I have never really done anything THAT important that I would pay to get it back. It's all just stuff I would be upset about if I lost but wouldn't ever try to recreate because it wasn't that important. I know I'm just echoing what others have said. I just couldn't not say it.

That said, it sounds to me like Apple screwed up royally here. They took your computer for a period of time specifically to back up it's data and told you they would hold it for 30 days. Come day 25, there is no data to be found. No matter what other statements Apple makes about data loss, they clearly have to take responsibility in this manner, somehow. There is proof that they had the computer. You probably got a receipt documenting the date and what they had the computer for. I have always gotten a receipt that clearly stated everything done to the computer, even when it's free under AppleCare.

I really don't know what sort of damages should be sought, but definitely something. I think you should have Apple sign a contract saying if Time Travel is ever invented that they will pay for you to use it.

[SQLDba]

This store has been open three days - and you assume that they know what they are doing? This after they demonstrated that they were confused by giving your dad the wrong laptop back when he picked it up? Heck the store had been open 3 days - how many laptops could they possibly have had?

I just think the whole thing is sloppy - and for every point that you can tick against Apple in their sloppiness - you have 2 ticks on your side.

Regardless of what they did or promised or tried to do - there is no excuse for not regularly backing up data. Especially data that is priceless, especially by someone who has high familiarity with macs, especially considering how easy it is to do anymore, and most especially considering you were holding this data on a machine which had failed you 3 times before.

Heck - the .Mac backup is so simple it's not even funny. For you to have no backups for 2 years is just inexcusable.

Your just damn lucky Apple gave you someone to try to blame. Had your dad dropped his laptop - or the drive failed on his own, he'd probably be having to answer some pretty tough questions right now by his employer.

The more I think about this story the angrier I get about it. You and your father have by your own admission been negligent in protecting his work product for the last 2 years - and because you have naively ceded that responsibility to a helpful tech at an Apple store who made an honest mistake, you are trying to pin the whole thing on them.

You are like the driver who refuses to wear a seatbelt and then sues because when they wreck their car, they are paralyzed. You have to own some if not most of the responsibility here. You lit the fuse of a bomb - a ticking time bomb called mean time to failure - and just because it exploded in the hands of an Apple tech doesn't mean you didn't light the fuse to begin with.

[everyplace]

See my original post as it pertains to me fully understanding the value of timely backups. That said, I don't live in the same state as my father, and there's only so much you can do remotely, at least in the case of a laptop.

The thing is, the type of errors the computer was going in for weren't threatening to the data. Would you expect your computer to be reformatted if the monitor broke? Its a similar, only in terms of the fact that the problem the computer was going in for was so far removed from a data problem.

[Parky]

There is no excuse for not doing a backup, regardless what Apple said.

To say 'would you backup your data if the monitor was being fixed', the answer would always be yes. Regardless of what was being done to the machine, once it is out of your care it is at more risk from theft, damage, repair errors, mistakes, spills, rain, anything.
They could have fixed your laptop perfectly and then a truck crashes and it get burnt, data lost.

If the hard disk had failed or the machine was stolen you would have lost the information anyway, because you did not have a backup.

Your information was not 'safe' on your hard drive, don't blame others for your own failing.

I'm sorry you lost the information, but if it was really that important you would have had a backup anyway regardless of the Apple incident.

You were totally unprepared for any loss of data occurrence.

Ian

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Bad service is bad service. You got bad service, so don't let any holier-than-thou wise acre convince you that your father "should have" done a backup and everything is his own fault. Enough already: lessoned learned. But even if your father did have a backup, Apple still lost the data after they told you otherwise. End of story.

[Parky]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
Bad service is bad service. You got bad service, so don't let any holier-than-thou wise acre convince you that your father "should have" done a backup and everything is his own fault. Enough already: lessoned learned. But even if your father did have a backup, Apple still lost the data after they told you otherwise. End of story.

Yes Apple is in the wrong, no doubt about that, they gave bad advice.

The owner of the information also has a responsibility as well, if he was so concerned about the data to ask Apple about it twice, why did he not do a backup anyway.

Better safe than sorry. It's reckless behaviour and somehow it does not all ring true.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
Bad service is bad service. You got bad service, so don't let any holier-than-thou wise acre convince you that your father "should have" done a backup and everything is his own fault. Enough already: lessoned learned.

They didn't learn the lesson after 3 major warnings. From everyplace's replies it looks like they didn't learn the lesson after the 4th incident where they actually lost all the data. If you don't back up your data, you will eventually lose it. Hardware failure, operation error, dropping it, theft etc. it's just a matter of time. This is basic knowledge these days. If a person with an IQ > 130 chose to ignore it for over 2 years I blame noone else but himself for the data loss.

[chris v]

Originally posted by everyplace:
See my original post as it pertains to me fully understanding the value of timely backups. That said, I don't live in the same state as my father, and there's only so much you can do remotely, at least in the case of a laptop.

The thing is, the type of errors the computer was going in for weren't threatening to the data. Would you expect your computer to be reformatted if the monitor broke? Its a similar, only in terms of the fact that the problem the computer was going in for was so far removed from a data problem.

Dude. The Mac Genius screwed up. Badly. But so did you. Any component can fail at any time. I have a friend who lives in a neighborhood populated by graphic designers. We had a big thunderstorm a few weeks back that sprung up really suddenly. A transformer on his block took a hit, and blew up 7 or 8 Macs with one fell swoop. They were all in line together down at the repair shop the next day. Data is NEVER safe. Disaster will find a way to strike if given the opportunity. A mathematician should also be able to understand the laws of entropy at play here. Backups need to be performed frequently, and double-checked on, as well, like someone else pointed out. It has happened that people have reformatted hard drives only to find that their backup was toast due to some sort of glitch.

I back up to a second hard drive weekly, and back those back-ups to CD monthly, then take the CDs off site. (fire and burglary are sure-fire ways to lose your files, your back-ups and your back-ups of your back-ups.)

Back up. Test the back-up. Weekly, if you're a consumer with no irreplaceable files vital to your security/employment. Daily if it's really vital. It's simple to put in place, and all the hand-wringing in the world won't bring it back when it's gone.

[turtle777]

As much as I agree that Apple screwed up, you did as well.

Not doing ANY backups in all the time is plain stupid.
Yes, it suxx, it hurts etc.
But come on, if this never happened, you'd probably never learn it.

BACKUPS ARE YOUR LIFE !

-t

[d4nth3m4n]

why didnt you have the logic board fixed and then back it up and wait for it to die again? OR realize the importance of the information on there and the potential for them to f*ck up the backup?

just saying...

then again, THEY were the ones who suggested the new machine... does any responsibility fall on them as far as the backup goes?

[turtle777]

Originally posted by d4nth3m4n:
then again, THEY were the ones who suggested the new machine... does any responsibility fall on them as far as the backup goes?

In order to answer that, we have to first state the law of computing #1:

Always, always, always have backups.
You, y-o-u, Y-O-U are the sole responsible person for your data.

So can you fall back on Apple because they told you to act against common sense and the law of computing #1 ?

I doubt it.

-t

[ort888]

The bottom line is that you paid Apple to do a service, and rather than do what you paid for, they did the exact opposite and screwed you in the process.

Should you or your dad have been doing backups? Yes. Does that excuse what Apple did? No.

[drive-thru]

everyplace - PLEASE READ THIS:

(For the sake of making my point I'm going to ignore Apple's liability/responsibility in this).

Many people here have posted about making sure your father does regular backups now, but I fear (as TETENAL does) that you still haven't taken this on board.

1) If you send your computer to Apple for a repair there is no guarantee that your data will be secure. Even if you pay for them to keep your data, anything could happen. They might misread the repair sheet and not backup, they might lose your computer, drop it and damage the drive etc.
When you send your computer in for repair ALWAYS backup for yourself!

2) Someone mentionned mean-time-to-failure. No hard drive will last forever, they ALWAYS break. I've had hard drives die between it being sent and me receiving it. I've had a hard drive fail after 4 years without a problem.
Many people have said it, and I don't think you've acknowledged it yet: If the hard drive had failed, or the iBook damaged in a fire, the data would still be lost and you wouldn't be able to blame anyone but yourselves. I couldn't imagine where to start if faced with 2 years of research to re-do. I can't even imagine how much information that is.
Hard drives WILL fail. Backup your important data.


I don't mean to go on about all this but, as has been said before, you were lucky 3 times that the data wasn't lost during repairs and lucky another infinite number of times that the data wasn't lost due to hard drive failure/damage.

PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THIS, and do something about it.

You made a mistake, naturally we look for someone to blame. Man-up a take a little responsibility for this. Then make sure it doesn't happen again.

Everyone who replied in this thread is clearly an expert in backing up so ask us for advice on a backup system which will work for your father, please.

[iREZ]

Anybody care to shorten that post to a cut and dry 4-6 sentence post. I wanna know whats going on but come on, I'd rather read the 3rd chapter in my textbook than read all that crap.

[GK]

Cliffs ?

[drive-thru]

Summary:

'everyplace's' father does a lot of important research on his iBook.

The iBook has been in for 3 logic board repairs, so when it failed the fourth time Apple offered to upgrade to a new iBook. As the computer wouldn't boot, 'everyplace' couldn't do a backup (and was told not to remove the hard drive to do so by Apple).
He took the iBook to an Apple store, they backed up the data (said they would keep it for 30 days).

New iBook arrives on day 23, the Apple store have lost the data. It will never be recovered. 2 years of research gone.

teh suck.

(btw, can you run target disk mode on a 'dead logic board' mac? I'm guessing not.)

[turtle777]

Originally posted by drive-thru:

(btw, can you run target disk mode on a 'dead logic board' mac? I'm guessing not.)

Probably depends on what is wrong with it.
If it's just the GPU, you probably would be able to.

-t

[SQLDba]

The other issue that blows my mind (and makes this whole story a little bogus) is that you are doing all this for a $800-1000 laptop that isn't even yours?

You know the correct way to back up the data - yet you don't do it because some tech says it will void your warranty? First, we are not talking about big dollars here, second it ain't your money, third the risk to and value of your data is MUCH higher than the value of the laptop (this is nearly always the case) and you are directly responsible for that data.

You were sending back an 800 mhz ibook to swap for a $1,000 1ghz. This isn't big money. And it isn't your money anyway - it just doesn't make sense to me that you wouldn't open the book, do you backup, seal it up - and send it in.

I promise the fight you would have had over whether you opened the book or not would have been a lot easier than what you are faced with now.

[bstone]

For the past 4 years I was a Mac tech/sysadmin at a major midwest university. I worked in the labs supporting and professors' offices. There is absolutely no excuse for failing to make regular back ups. I know people have said this and resaid this, but as a (very recently former, quit cause I got into a program at Harvard) sysadmin in an almost identical situation to yours, there is no excuse other than singing the sing:

(To the tune of "If You're Happy and You Know It"

If you can't afford to lose it, back it up
If you can't afford to lose it, back it up
If you can't afford to lose it and you really need it bad
If you can't afford to lose it, back it up

These other times which you sent in the iBook, did you not make a backup or the info to a DVD, CD, ext FW HD, network server, ftp server, nfs box, sftp space, homedir?????

Did your dad email it to anyone? It has to be somewhere.

[DeathToWindows]

Thou shalt back up thine data. Thou shalt not trust any other person with thine data, for if ye do, your data shall be unholy.

Yes, apple ****ed up here - but as I tell every single person I do computer work for - even if it's just a plug-in-the-printer job - back up your data - even if it's just your uber-crucial files on a $20 flash drive. It's better than nothing.

There has got to be copies of this stuff somewhere... go looking.

[MacMan4000]

All I can say is good luck.

And if you do sue Apple, please don't make em go bankrupt, I wanna see tiger first.

[MilkmanDan]

I can't believe I read that entire post.

Also, back up everything, as much as possible.

I have my critical data in three locations. 1) on DVD or CD 2) on a separate computer 3) on a firewire HD.

When it comes down to documents or other work related material, I find that its usually not very large (data wise). A flash drive usually does the trick. For movies or pictures, use a DVD-R or CD-R.

[Buckaroo]

When they recovered the data the last time it had problems, did they put it on CD or onto the Hard drive?

I hate to say it, but it sounds like the lost data was accidental. If it was me, I would have backed it up every day. I don't trust hard drives.

Get a Fujitsu M.O. they are suppose to be very dependable.