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typhoon · Apr 7, 2006, 01:48 AM

My mom is getting sick and tired of her old Windows laptop which is very slow, unstable and not much fun to use at all, so I'm thinking a Mac would be ideal for her. Especially since she's not a computer person and just needs something that works.

She's been hesitant towards Macs because she says she only knows Windows and its standard software (Word etc.) but now with the newly introduced "Bootcamp" it seems that she will be able to run Windows on the same machine although I'm not entirely sure how well this works in real life

In any case she can have NeoOffice installed, which I believe is more or less having Word on a Mac, isn't it?

As for having a laptop -she never really needed that as she bought an external keyboard, mouse and monitor, so a Mac laptop isn't really anything she needs to look into.

The Mac mini looks like a nice machine for her, but she needs a new keyboard/mouse anyway (the PC laptop doesn't use a USB keyboard and mouse), so that's going to add to the price. To avoid any confusion (the missing Apple-key etc.) I would suggest her to get an Apple keyboard and not just any old PC keyboard although the latter will of course be cheaper). I have no idea if the Apple mouse that comes with it is usable or not, in which case she might need to buy a standard Logitech mouse in addition, which she's used to from her PC.

And in her age I really think she should replace her old, fuzzy 17" CRT monitor with something better on her eyes, so add a proper LCD monitor to the total price.
Oh, and the Superdrive option is probably useful (as opposed to just being able to burn on CD) because it should make backing up her data easier (by the way, is there some *very* easy to use software available which will allow her to do that without any fuss? Back up her data to DVD (or DVD-RW) that is?

So it all boils down to buying a Mac mini with all those extras, or paying (a little?) more for the 17" iMac. Having experienced her PC to become too old and slow in such a short time I'm sure she wouldn't want that to happen again, and I'm thinking that the iMac will probably survive for longer than the mini. What do you guys suggest?

mduell · Apr 7, 2006, 03:26 AM

NeoOffice is good for what it is, but a far cry from Word; if she wants Word, have her buy Word.

I'd go for the iMac; Amazon has a $150 rebate on them, and no tax in many states.

Tuoder · Apr 7, 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by typhoon

My mom is getting sick and tired of her old Windows laptop which is very slow, unstable and not much fun to use at all, so I'm thinking a Mac would be ideal for her. Especially since she's not a computer person and just needs something that works.

Don't we all?

She's been hesitant towards Macs because she says she only knows Windows and its standard software (Word etc.) but now with the newly introduced "Bootcamp" it seems that she will be able to run Windows on the same machine although I'm not entirely sure how well this works in real life

It involves rebooting to switch OSes, same as any other Dual-booting system. The Boot Camp software is currently in Public Beta, so, as good as it seems to be, it is not really finished yet. Also OS X will be able to read (and write, if you excercise the right option) from the windows part of the hard drive, but windows is blind to the existence of any files in the Mac OS part of the disk. It is a bit technical, so you may want to just avoid that altogether, as OSX is not too hard to pick up. (It. Just. Works. usually)

In any case she can have NeoOffice installed, which I believe is more or less having Word on a Mac, isn't it?

I haven't personally used NeoOffice, but I have used OpenOffice, and if it is terribly similar, I like Word better. I know OpenOffice will open and create anything and it is free. I also know that Word:Mac is a bit different than PC Word (not too bad, but different [compatibility checks may worry her. that is unwarranted for the most part, but it may]).

As for having a laptop -she never really needed that as she bought an external keyboard, mouse and monitor, so a Mac laptop isn't really anything she needs to look into.

The Mac mini looks like a nice machine for her, but she needs a new keyboard/mouse anyway (the PC laptop doesn't use a USB keyboard and mouse), so that's going to add to the price. To avoid any confusion (the missing Apple-key etc.) I would suggest her to get an Apple keyboard and not just any old PC keyboard although the latter will of course be cheaper). I have no idea if the Apple mouse that comes with it is usable or not, in which case she might need to buy a standard Logitech mouse in addition, which she's used to from her PC.

That Mac Mini is the only Apple to not include a keyboard and mouse. The iMac comes with the Mighty Mouse, which has two (actually more) buttons, even though it doesn't look it. If the mouse is configured to one-button mode, or you chose to you a one-button mouse, then control-clicking is just about the same as right clicking.

And in her age I really think she should replace her old, fuzzy 17" CRT monitor with something better on her eyes, so add a proper LCD monitor to the total price.
Oh, and the Superdrive option is probably useful (as opposed to just being able to burn on CD) because it should make backing up her data easier (by the way, is there some *very* easy to use software available which will allow her to do that without any fuss? Back up her data to DVD (or DVD-RW) that is?

So it all boils down to buying a Mac mini with all those extras, or paying (a little?) more for the 17" iMac. Having experienced her PC to become too old and slow in such a short time I'm sure she wouldn't want that to happen again, and I'm thinking that the iMac will probably survive for longer than the mini. What do you guys suggest?

Mac Mini Duo, Mighty Mouse, Apple Keyboard, third-party LCD (15", maybe even 17" under $200) would be my reccomendation. That is $877 + $160-$180. On the other hand, the iMac would be a significantly better system for $300ish more, and the monitor would be built in. It would also alomost certainly have a longer service life.

MacOS-Fan · Apr 7, 2006, 09:28 PM

How do you figure the longer service life?

Berman · Apr 7, 2006, 09:46 PM

imac all the way. no point in having nice new hardware on a crap old crt screen. plus, the imac looks so clean on a desktop and takes up so little room.

Stoopid · Apr 7, 2006, 11:19 PM

This is exactly the same dilemma going on with my parents. My dad is still nervous about switching, but I basically told him if he and my newly retired mom want my free technical phone support, he better get a mac. As for which, I have no preference.

So mini or imac, mini or imac? The nice thing about the mini and the new external monitor is that you can use the monitor for other things... laptops, additional computer, etc. But the imac is soo... COOL. Groan. Decisions.

typhoon · Apr 8, 2006, 04:59 AM

There's one thing I forgot to ask in my first posting: noise levels.

My mom's old PC laptop makes an awful racket when the fan kicks in. I'm sure she would appreciate a silent machine when she puts a lot of money into a new Mac, so does the new iMac and Mac mini computers make a lot of noise?

Berman · Apr 8, 2006, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by typhoon

There's one thing I forgot to ask in my first posting: noise levels.

My mom's old PC laptop makes an awful racket when the fan kicks in. I'm sure she would appreciate a silent machine when she puts a lot of money into a new Mac, so does the new iMac and Mac mini computers make a lot of noise?

they're pretty quiet. then again, the G4 mini and G5 imac are also quiet unless worked really hard.

spectre · Apr 8, 2006, 07:53 PM

The mac mini seems to be virtually silent for most of the time...

Personally, I'd suggest an iMac especially if you're going to be buying a mouse, keyboard, and monitor. It's probably a better value and it's just easier having an all-in-one computer for parents. Either machine is great, but the iMac is probably easier and has a better value for people that don't have a mouse, keyboard and monitor.

Tuoder · Apr 8, 2006, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by MacOS-Fan

How do you figure the longer service life?

iMacs are significantly faster. Faster computers have longer service lives because they are able to run current software for a longer time. (as time goes on, software requirements get higher and higher, especially games [though I doubt she will use games]). I think that the iMac may see a service life of a good year longer. I think that the advantage will be especially pronounced between the duo and solo, as more and more software becomes multithreaded. There may come a time, in 5 or 6 years (very very rough estimate) when single-core will not be supported, or just not fast enough.

At the very least I would get the Mac Mini Core Duo.

MacOS-Fan · Apr 8, 2006, 08:15 PM

Thank you for explaining. I agree with your theory. I however, NEVER seem to keep a computer for that long

Tuoder · Apr 8, 2006, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by MacOS-Fan

Thank you for explaining. I agree with your theory. I however, NEVER seem to keep a computer for that long

I see. I am a bit of a pack rat. I am using an iMac DV SE (G3-400Mhz) and a PowerBook G3 (333Mhz). I buy used a good deal of the time, so it is important for me to consider service life.

typhoon · Apr 9, 2006, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Tuoder

iMacs are significantly faster. Faster computers have longer service lives because they are able to run current software for a longer time. (as time goes on, software requirements get higher and higher, especially games [though I doubt she will use games]).
(REST OF QUOTE SNIPPED)

At the very least I would get the Mac Mini Core Duo.

You're quite right that she won't be using the Mac for games

She mostly uses her Windows computer to write email, check out websites, write and print out Word documents that she's written herself or received as attachements from others.

But she needs something that doesn't crash all the time, needs maintenance/service from me or my father all the time, whenever something goes wrong or needs updating (such as anti-spyware software etc.) which is pretty often.
And it should be a pleasure to use of course, but she'll probably get that from any

On a sidenote, what would be the best, easisest and most affordable way to make backups for her? I'm sure if she decides on the nore expensive iMac (I talked to her recently and she said that the iMac will be stretching the budget) she wouldn't want to spend lots of extra money on expensive backup software.
Backing up to DVD or DVD-RW would most likely be the cheapest method hardware-wise, wouldn't it?
Another thing: if she gets the iMac, the hard-drive will also be really big (160 Gbytes), which she won't be filling up for sure. So could it perhaps be split into two (partitioned), and some sort of configuration be set up so that data is written in parrallell to both partitions at the same time. Sort of like a RAID solution, only that it's on the same physical drive.
I know it won't be as safe as using two separate physical drives, but better than using just one partition. Or is there a better solution?

Back to the hardware, I see upsides and downsides to both systems:
the Mac mini will be the cheaper solution and she will be able to to choose just about any monitor she wants (I'd suggest getting a good quality one, not the cheapest no-name branded monitor possible), but still a lot cheaper than the Apple monitors which are wayyyyy too expensive.
The limited hard drive size, shared memory between the graphic card and system memory and slower processor may still be good enough for her.
A word processor that works fine today will still work just as well in 10 years, but I guess software for Internet use evolves as it already has up to now (demanding faster hardware for playing audio-clips, video-clips, flash animation etc.) all the time.

The iMac on the other hand has lots of power -lots more than she will ever use or need, but it probably won't become obsolete in a while, and perhaps even if she doesn't use a fraction of its power she would feel a more responsive and less sluggish computer than the Mac mini, even for simple applications -is this correct, or would the Mac mini seem the exact same for her use?
There will also be less clutter of course since there won't be wires from here to there as everything is built in one single box (ehm... monitor really).
But if the monitor breaks the computer will become useless (or VERY expensive to replace I'm sure, compared to buying a new non-Apple monitor in any PC store, as she would if she got a Mac mini now, and her monitor breaks). From the specs I also see that the hard drive in the iMac is of the 7200 RPM type, which I'm sure means less sluggish performance (compared to a slower hard drive) in many respects (virtual memory -she definitely won't buy any more memory for it, at least not right away, having paid a premium price for the new computer system in the first place), but wouldn't a 7200 RPM drive make a lot more noise than a 5400 RPM drive which will be the type she gets in a Mac mini?

Well, that's a few thoughts I've had lately about the subject.

Personally I'm more like Tuoder when it comes to technology.
I bought myself a new 15" Powerbook in October 2005, replacing a really old 68K Mac and almost as old PPC Mac after many, many years of pushing them to the limits of what they could handle. I don't mind using old, second-hand bought computers as it saves my wallet and the environment, but for me it got to a stage where I simply couldn't do basic things like going online as my browser couldn't handle online banking, playing multimedia files etc. I also started getting into video editing and creating/recording music, so the less powerful computers I had simply couldn't cut it. Now with the 15" Powerbook G4 1.67 GHz I'm starting to roll!

But I'm sidetracking.... my mother I'm sure won't be "power using" a computer, even though she still needs something that won't become a hindrance in her work as her PC laptop has become. And since I'm still quite new to the MacOS X and have only been using my own Powerbook G4 among the up-to-date computers I really have no clue as to what to recommend her to get.

Phew!! what a long posting

MacOS-Fan · Apr 9, 2006, 09:22 AM

Have you ever used a CoreDuo Mac Mini? If not, then I would go to an Apple store and play around with one. They are anything but sluggish and the processors are not slow AT ALL. The iMac is the more powerful computer, but not as much as you think (unless your mom is a gamer or wants to do a lot of heavy 3D work). The iMac's processor(s) and HD are "slightly" faster than the Mini's. The iMac definitely does have alot more GPU power. Whichever machine you choose will be great, I just don't want you to get the wrong impression of the Mini. The CoreDuo Mini is quite a fast, capable and powerful computer. Don't let it's size fool you

NOTE: I don't want to offend any CoreSolo users out there. I am simply pushing the CoreDuo here becuase it is being compared to an iMac CoreDuo.

typhoon · Apr 9, 2006, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by MacOS-Fan

Have you ever used a CoreDuo Mac Mini? If not, then I would go to an Apple store and play around with one. They are anything but sluggish and the processors are not slow AT ALL. The iMac is the more powerful computer, but not as much as you think (unless your mom is a gamer or wants to do a lot of heavy 3D work). The iMac's processor(s) and HD are "slightly" faster than the Mini's. The iMac definitely does have alot more GPU power. Whichever machine you choose will be great, I just don't want you to get the wrong impression of the Mini. The CoreDuo Mini is quite a fast, capable and powerful computer. Don't let it's size fool you

NOTE: I don't want to offend any CoreSolo users out there. I am simply pushing the CoreDuo here becuase it is being compared to an iMac CoreDuo.

No gaming or 3D heavy work for my mom. The only gaming she's done is that card game that comes with Windows, so I'm sure she'll be happy if I can install something similar for the Mac so she can feel right at home

So basically you're saying that an Imac is really overkill for my mom's use and that I shouldn't ditch the idea of the Mac mini, as long as it's the more expensive of the two currently available models (the one with a 1.66 GHz Intel duo-core processor), and that she wouldn't notice any difference at all between the two computers?

I was thinking she would at least need some additional options of that cheaper (single-core) like a Superdrive (very handy for backups).

I read that there's no separate graphic memory in the Mac mini, and instead the 512 Mbyte standard memory is shared for software and the graphic card. Does this mean that she'd need to buy an additional memory module to be able to use it sufficiently whereas with the Imac, 512 Mbytes would be OK?
I'm asking because additional memory would increase the total cost and draw closer to the cost of the Imac.

(personally I only have the stock 512 Mbytes of RAM in my 1.67GHz 15" Powerbook G4, and I edit videos with Imovie, burn them with IDVD, use Photoshop elements to edit and create images and so on. It works fine for me, even though I guess I would see the "beachball" a lot less if I had more memory).

angelmb · Apr 9, 2006, 04:04 PM

What about the iMac coming with a built-in iSight?, maybe your mom would like that.

G5man · Apr 9, 2006, 06:02 PM

I would go for a 17" iMac because you have more storage, better graphics, and you can have it running right out of the box.

abe · Apr 9, 2006, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by MacOS-Fan

Thank you for explaining. I agree with your theory. I however, NEVER seem to keep a computer for that long

How long has your Mom had her laptop?

Get her the best (fastest, most capable, easiest to operate, simplest) one possible then you'll have no regrets no matter how long she keeps it.

iMac.

production_coordinator · Apr 10, 2006, 01:11 AM

I would buy the iMac. Very clean... simple...

I would also install ARD (apple remote desktop) so that you can help them remotely.

Last suggestion, but M$ Office. It will save a good amount of headache. NeoOffice is good, but it isn't Office by a mile.

Stoopid · Apr 10, 2006, 01:28 AM

Just ordered the imac 17" for my PC dedicated father and retiree/novice mother. Thanks for the input. I'm also going to install a "one click" ARD like in this thread
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...5383&query=vnc

typhoon · Apr 10, 2006, 10:46 AM

The above comments got me curious as I had never heard about ARD before, but after understanding that it's a way of remotely "controlling" another Mac (as when my mom might have a problem with something and I'm not physically nearby to pop in and help) I thought to myself that this is pretty amazing.
So if/when she runs into trouble I can help her from my own computer where I live.

But is ARD an extra piece of (expensive) software you have to buy, or is it included with MacOS? I'm asking because when googling around for "Apple Remote Desktop" I read that it has to be bought.
But then again I see there's an option for "Apple remote desktop" in my (MacOS 10.4.5) "Sharing" control panel, in the "Services" tab, so what is it?

Stoopid · Apr 10, 2006, 03:01 PM

ARD - Client Software, for the computer to be controlled, is free and included with Tiger. You access it under the Sharing control panel.

ARD manager software, for the computer to do the remote controlling, is not free from apple. However, you don't have to use ARD to do the controlling.... you can use any VNC (generic term for Virtual Network Computing) software, and much of that is free. Chicken of the VNC is a popular one for macs. I use TightVNC for my PC.

AppleJockey · Apr 13, 2006, 06:31 PM

I just had my mom do "the switch"
Like your mom she mostly uses the computer for email surfing the web,word....

the computer she had was windows based and she kept getting flooded with spyware viruses....all of this slowed ddown proformance.
When I told her she could get word and exel on mac and that she would get no spyware or popups she was sold.

I got her a apple keyboard and a 2 button mouse
to help ease her transition

I set her with with a solo because
1 her demnds are not high
2.if she ever needed more she can upgrade(yes I know it will cost more to upgrade but I doubt she will ever need to)

so far she is loving it

Gavin · Apr 15, 2006, 09:46 AM

Chicken of the VNC is the way to go for remote control. works fine, it's free, and it even works for windows and linux.

I talked my mom into buying an iMac six years ago when her crappy pc died. The major selling point for her was that it was purple.

For the first 2 weeks she hated it, but that was all about familiarity. Once she got the hang of it, and I set a picture of her cat as the desktop, she got into it. I spent maybe a total of 3-5 hours over a month showing her how to do things. So my weekly tech support session became a yearly sort-her-files day.

A couple months ago I upgraded her to a newer iMac with OS X and she figured it all out by herself, all I did was to move her files over. She opens all sorts of email attachments from work, installs internet plugins, etc., with no help at all. I put VNC on it but have never had to use it once.

My main problem now is that she can't seem to realize that she's out of ink and thinks the printer is broken. So every three months I have to go over and "fix" it.

Anyway, I'd go with the iMac instead of the mini. There is just so much less to it. No cables, no monitor, etc. And it's up higher so it's much less likely she will spill lemonade on it (which is what did in the aforementioned pc)

Of course the real answer is to take her into a store and let her choose for herself.

tooki · Apr 15, 2006, 11:57 AM

My recommendation: iMac. Less cables = less to go wrong when Mom dusts and accidentally unplugs cables.

For card game: Solitaire Till Dawn. My Mom plays it constantly on her iMac.

For remote administration: Timbuktu. ARD is for lab management, not over-the-Internet control. VNC is much too slow for Internet use. Timbuktu is designed to work even over dialup. It's what I use with my Mom.

For backup: get a Seagate Pushbutton Backup model external drive. They come with backup software that can be run from a button on the drive. DVD is too small for regular backups, and managing multi-disc backups is a nightmare.

tooki

angelmb · Apr 15, 2006, 04:27 PM

Another nice card game is Kitty Spangles Solitaire,

www.swoopsoftware.com

mduell · Apr 15, 2006, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Gavin

My main problem now is that she can't seem to realize that she's out of ink and thinks the printer is broken. So every three months I have to go over and "fix" it.

Think about a color laser. HP has some reasonably priced low-end models.

cal-ov-whe · 11:15 PM

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