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Sore loser Boeing cries for communist state to help them
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Jun 20, 2008, 03:27 PM
 
So Boeing lost fair and square because Airbus offered the better package. Why did I knew they couldn't give it a rest? So of course the state will help them now. That's some special form of capitalism. Boeingism-communism maybe.

--
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/bu...4/Y6XoJpHDk1FA

Audit Says Tanker Deal Is Flawed
Northrop Grumman, via Reuters

EADS and Northrop Grumman won out in February with plans for a refueling tanker, in a rendering above with a B-2 bomber.

By LESLIE WAYNE
Published: June 19, 2008

In a stunning turnabout for the Boeing Company, government auditors on Wednesday upheld the company’s appeal of the Air Force’s decision to award a $35 billion contract to build midair refueling tankers to a partnership of Northrop Grumman and the European parent of Airbus.

In February in Everett, Wash., protesters echoed the calls on Capitol Hill, arguing that Boeing should build the tankers.

The action is yet another twist in the competition for one of the modern military’s most expensive — and most controversial — procurement programs. In February, when the Air Force awarded the contract to the international partnership, it set off a trans-Atlantic battle over jobs and national pride.

Boeing quickly appealed the decision, and members of Congress, arguing that key military contracts should remain in American hands, rallied on behalf of Boeing.

The auditors, with the Government Accountability Office, agreed with Boeing that the Air Force unfairly evaluated the merits and overall cost of the Boeing bid, and urged the Air Force to reopen negotiations. The tanker contract, which could eventually grow to $100 billion to build a fleet of 179 refueling planes, is one of the most lucrative ever awarded by the Pentagon.

“Our review of the record led us to conclude that the Air Force had made a number of significant errors that could have affected the outcome of what was a close competition between Boeing and Northrop Grumman,” said the G.A.O., the agency that Congress has designated to review federal contract disputes. “We therefore sustained Boeing’s protest,” it added.

The agency report, while a major coup for Boeing, is a setback for the Air Force, whose credibility is in tatters over the besieged procurement program and other recent scandals.

In a statement, the Air Force said it would not decide whether to reopen the bidding for the contract until it had fully reviewed the 69-page G.A.O. report. “Once the review is complete, the Air Force will be in a position to determine the best course of action,” said the Air Force statement.

Lt. Col. Karen Platt, an Air Force spokeswoman, said: “We don’t know the way forward right now. It is a huge document, and it will take time to review it.” The Air Force has 60 days to respond to the G.A.O. report.

The controversy spilled over into presidential politics as well. One of the leading players in the tanker contract dispute is Senator John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, who scuttled an initial deal between the Air Force and Boeing in 2004 as a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

That plan, in which the Air Force was to have leased the tankers from Boeing, collapsed in a corruption scandal that sent two Boeing executives to prison and later cost the chief executive his job.

This setback, in turn, opened the door for a challenge to Boeing from Northrop Grumman and the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company, known as EADS, eager to do more business with the Pentagon.

Mr. McCain’s top advisers, including a co-chairman of his presidential campaign, were lobbyists for EADS. And Mr. McCain had written to the Defense Department, urging it to ignore a trade dispute between the United States and Europe over whether Airbus received improper subsidies. Mr. McCain said that he was asking the Air Force only to maintain a level playing field as it considered the two bids.

Democrats immediately seized on Mr. McCain’s role on Wednesday, suggesting that his efforts could lead to a loss of American jobs. A press release issued by the Democratic National Committee carried a headline saying that “McCain mimicked EADS every step of the way” on a deal that “sent American jobs abroad.”

Senator Barack Obama, the likely Democratic nominee, did not echo this line of commentary, but said he “applauds” the G.A.O. recommendation and added that the tanker competition “must be reopened to ensure a fair and transparent process.”

At a news conference in Springfield, Mo., Mr. McCain also called for the Air Force to reopen the competition. “Obviously, they need to go back and redo the contracting process again,” said Mr. McCain, adding that he hopes “that this time they will get it right.” He also defended his role in the demise of the Boeing-Air Force deal: “I’m still proud that the first time around, I saved taxpayers $6.2 billion.”

Because of the need to keep some of its report confidential, the G.A.O. released only a three-page summary. In it, the G.A.O. said that the Air Force had made “unreasonable” cost calculations which, when corrected, would make Boeing the lower bidder over time. It also said the Air Force had “conducted misleading and unequal discussions” with Boeing when the Air Force indicated to Boeing that it had satisfied program requirements when, in fact, it had not.

The G.A.O. ruling is only a recommendation and does not mean that Boeing will prevail in the end. But given the strong wording of the report and that the G.A.O. upholds only a small number of contract protests, analysts say that the Air Force is likely to give Boeing a second chance.


“This means a recompete,” said Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with the Teal Group, a consulting firm in Northern Virginia. “And it gives Boeing a strong chance.”

In Paris, there was disappointment mixed with hope. “Though we are disappointed, it is important to recognize that the G.A.O. announcement is an evaluation of the selection process, not of the merits of the aircraft,” Louis Gallois, the EADS chief executive, said at a Paris reception. He added that he remained confident that the Airbus aerial tanker, which is a version of its A330 commercial plane, was “best suited to meet the Air Force’s critical mission requirements.”

But on Capitol Hill, there was jubilation. Lawmakers from Washington, Kansas and Missouri gathered for an exuberant news conference. Still, they said they would wait to see what the Air Force did before taking any legislative steps. Representative Todd Tiahrt, Republican of Kansas, even went so far as to hold up a banner that said “Vindication!!” and referred to the Airbus offering as a “French tanker.”

“Parents always say it’s not nice to say ‘I told you so,’ but we told you so,” said Senator Pat Roberts, Republican of Kansas, where Boeing has operations. Representative Dave Reichert, Republican of Washington, said Boeing workers were rejoicing. “Over 20,000 of my constituents are Boeing employees,” he said. “And I can almost hear the cheer all the way from Washington State here to Washington, D.C.”

Mark McGraw, Boeing’s vice president for tanker programs, said, “We welcome and support today’s ruling by the G.A.O. fully sustaining the grounds of our protest.” Boeing’s stock rose 27 cents on Wednesday to close at $74.65, while Northrop shares fell $1.08 to $70.01.

Boeing’s decision to lodge a protest was a bold one, and it risked alienating the company’s biggest customer. At the time of the decision, Air Force officials had sent out strong signals that they hoped Boeing would not take the course that it did, arguing that a protest by Boeing would only further delay a needed program in a time of war.

But Boeing did so anyway, mounting a multimillion-dollar advertising and public relations campaign and encouraging members of Congress from states where Boeing provides jobs to rally on its behalf. It has run full-page color ads in major newspapers and in trade publications read by members of Congress and Pentagon officials.

For the Air Force, the tanker competition was also about its own reputation and ability to run a fair and honest competition after the 2004 Boeing-Air Force deal failed amid evidence of a pattern of pro-Boeing favoritism within the Air Force.

On Monday, the Pentagon strongly defended and stressed the importance of getting new tankers into its fleet. Geoff Morrell, the Defense Department spokesman, said: “We believe that the acquisition and contracting process that eventually produced Northrop Grumman and EADS as the winner of this deal was a fair and transparent one. It was very deliberate.”
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Jun 20, 2008, 03:38 PM
 
Wrong forum maybe?
     
ghporter
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Jun 20, 2008, 03:40 PM
 
Ummmm......If the GAO says the Air Force screwed up, then it's about 100% likely that the Air Force screwed up. So calling Boeing a "sore loser" is incorrect. And the appeal was entirely part of the contracting process, exactly by the book and by the rules. Considering how poorly the Air Force has done in the last few years (I blame it on my retirement in 2004 ), I'm not at all surprised that they screwed up in the contracting process.

Some of Boeing's complaints included things like the Air Force changing the requirements AFTER Boeing had told them about their planned airframe selection; the Air Force changed the requirement to a larger airframe than Boeing had already committed to building, one that just happened to match Airbus' existing airframe... That's not "sore loser" at all. That's "this process is supposed to be just plain business, not 'monkey business'" which it seems was afoot in the Air Force wing of the Pentagon.

And since one of the decisions the Air Force could have made was to split the award, so that existing Boeing technology and existing Boeing airframes could be used for the smaller airframe requirement that still exists (the Air Force is using the crap out of their -135 fleet right now, and not using the KC-10 nearly as much) while bringing in Airbus to build the follow on for the aging KC-10 fleet for large airframe requirements, it really looks bad on the Air Force if they knowingly and intentionally played with the numbers.

Please note that I am a (retired) Airman; I love my Air Force. I am quite ticked at the brass who have been screwing with my service lately, and if it takes the GAO to call them on this, then so be it. Maybe Mr. Gates will start firing Air Force contracting commanders too. Good.

And Mastrap is right, so I'm moving this to the PL.

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Jun 20, 2008, 04:01 PM
 
If Boeing bribed their way into the contract like they did the first time the competition was up, they should be out of this game by principle. Boeing became fat and overconfident after 60 years of constant contracts flowing in. And the first time when the Air Force allowed the competition and they lose, they run to Mama. So in the end, the Air Force might have to buy the inferior material for political reasons. Oh well...

[Sorry just noticed it went into the wrong forum]

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iMOTOR
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Jun 20, 2008, 04:02 PM
 



Why would this tanker have windows?
     
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Jun 20, 2008, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by iMOTOR View Post



Why would this tanker have windows?
Because the tooling for the airframe includes making windows. On the converted 707 airframes used for aircraft like the E-3, you can see aluminum panels in window spaces. The KC-135 didn't have them because it is NOT a 707, but a slightly longer derivative of the predecessor of the 707, so the tooling is different. Tooling is a major investment in building an aircraft, even for something as "trivial" as the skin panels (which, by the way, provide a major portion of the fuselage's strength).

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Jun 21, 2008, 06:11 AM
 
The World from Berlin: The 'Political Dimension' Improves Boeing's Chances - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

The 'Political Dimension' Improves Boeing's Chances

Following a ruling by the GOA, the Air Force is likely to hold a new competition for its lucrative tanker bid. German commentators warn that this time Boeing is likely to trump EADS now that the issue has been dragged into the US presidential race.

EADS may have to fight for the contract it already won.
US planemaker Boeing scored a major victory this week when the Government Accountability Office (GOA) in Washington D.C. upheld its protest (more...) against the awarding of a huge contract to its European arch rival. The congressional body found that the US Air Force had made a number of errors when it awarded a $35 billion contract to European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) to build 179 tankers.

The GOA said on Wednesday that the Air Force had failed to judge the competing bids fairly. The non-binding ruling is likely to prompt the Air Force to hold a new competition for the contract.

Boeing executives had complained bitterly about the original decision to award the lucrative contract to EADS, parent company to Airbus. Despite the fact that the European company would be working with the US firm Northrop Grumman and had pledged to build the aircraft at a plant in Alabama, Boeing managed to present the deal as a loss of American jobs. With the economy wobbling, the argument has resonated with many in the US.

On Friday the German papers mull the implications of the GOA ruling and most argue that the politicization of the issue and the increased tendency toward protectionism in the US do not bode well for EADS.

The Financial Times Deutschland writes:
"In the competition between Boeing and EADS, psychology and prestige play a greater role than jobs."

"Whoever succeeds, US politicians should not worry about the loss of American jobs. The Airbus aircraft would be assembled in new factories in the US. In terms of employment policy, it hardly makes a difference whether the project is led by Boeing or EADS."

"The economic climate in the US is changing at the moment, the protectionist mood is getting stronger. If the Air Force does hold a new competition then the final decision will probably be made at the beginning of the new US president's term and with a newly elected US Congress. The 'Buy American' argument could carry more weight than it has in the past."

"EADS can now only hope that technical arguments will win out over political ones in Washington. Because one thing that military experts overwhelmingly agree upon on both sides of the Atlantic is that the Airbus model is the better aircraft."

The center-left Süddeutsche Zeitung writes:
"It was especially the Democratic Senators and Representatives that -- using a mixed of populism and protectionism -- created the impression that shady generals in the Pentagon and in the Bush administration were pushing the national aviation industry into ruin."

"In the light of this mood, the GOA has now found that the Air Force treated Boeing unfairly. This only adds to suspicions at EADS that political wrangling is at work here. However, the Europeans have little choice but to go along with things … and trust in the strength of their offer in a second bid against Boeing."

"Unfortunately for EADS, the case is now being dragged into the presidential campaign. John McCain, the Republican candidate, stopped a corrupt deal years ago in which the Air Force leased over-priced tankers from Boeing. The act of uncovering this has since been presented as akin to treason. Meanwhile Barack Obama, the Democrat, has tried to present himself as the guardian of American jobs. In the end, instead of price and quality, it could be the election that decides which company gets the business. That would be grossly unfair."

The left-leaning Berliner Zeitung writes:
"Boeing made it clear … that the acceptance of the EADS bid was not just a matter of $40 billion but that thousands of jobs would be leaving the country."

"That was bad news that no American wanted to hear in these difficult economic times. The argument that the EADS partner Northrop Gurmann is a US firm and that a plant for building the tankers would be built in Alabama could not appease the critics. In their eyes, this was not just about money and jobs, it was about prestige."

"Arch rivals EADS and Boeing are engaged in a bitter competition for contracts on the global market. The fact that it was the US Air Force that was giving its biggest contract to a European instead of American firm seemed strange from the very beginning. It was as if a sovereign right had been transgressed."

"Boeing's chances look good, because the size and prestige of the contract has now given it a political dimension. The Republican presidential candidate John McCain was a fierce critic of the Air Force and Boeing when accusations of favoritism emerged in connection with a tanker contract not long ago."

"Democrats are now criticizing McCain for this and for his links to Northrop Grumman. One of his advisors is said to have worked for Northrop as a lobbyist. McCain's Democratic rival Barack Obama made a show of welcoming the decision and said he hoped the process would be transparent and not only take into consideration the needs of the American military but also that of the American workers."
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Jun 21, 2008, 07:42 AM
 
Why shouldn't the "communist state" help Boeing? It helps Wal-Mart, Cabelas, Bass Pro Sports, the New York Yankees, the coal mining industry, the electric generating industry, and a raft of others, when there is no benefit to the local communities to those companies coming to their towns? There is very little "fair and square" in the American business world, especially when it comes to the little guy. America has been sold to large corporations. Read "Free Lunch," by David Cay Johnston; it does a nice job explaining how this came to be.
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Jun 21, 2008, 10:01 AM
 
This has nothing to do with the country helping anyone. It's a matter of the AF team that managed the bidding process changed the tanker requirements mid stream during the bidding process to favor EAD's aircraft.

The AF does not need another huge tanker. We have that with the KC-10. We can't land it at all the locations we need too. The AF needed a tanker that fit the size that Boeing submitted. Mid stream the AF team changed the design requirements to the larger size. This is one part of the teams failure.
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 11:39 AM
 
Yep - this is pretty much par for the course on how the "free market" works in the US today. Fair or not, right or not, there's always angling to buy someone off who can bend or change the rules by which the market operates.
     
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Jun 21, 2008, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Yep - this is pretty much par for the course on how the "free market" works in the US today. Fair or not, right or not, there's always angling to buy someone off who can bend or change the rules by which the market operates.
In this cases, the appeal is PART OF the rules. Boeing isn't trying to bend them, but it looks like the Air Force did.

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Jun 21, 2008, 10:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
In this cases, the appeal is PART OF the rules. Boeing isn't trying to bend them, but it looks like the Air Force did.
Yeah - I'm not making any claims as to WHO bends the rules. I'm saying the game has become one of skewing the rules one way or the other on all sides. One could say that's part of competition, but I'm not sure that's a healthy behavior for any 'free' market.
     
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Jun 25, 2008, 12:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
Yeah - I'm not making any claims as to WHO bends the rules. I'm saying the game has become one of skewing the rules one way or the other on all sides. One could say that's part of competition, but I'm not sure that's a healthy behavior for any 'free' market.
There's no such thing as a 'free' market. All markets have rules, and most large players try to bend or re-make them. The rules were not followed in this case, and the taxpayer has a right not to be defrauded in that way. This is the customer stepping up and saying that they will not have the rules of the game abused. I fail to see why that is 'communism'.
     
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Jun 25, 2008, 05:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
In this cases, the appeal is PART OF the rules. Boeing isn't trying to bend them, but it looks like the Air Force did.
This is mostly a political issue. Even though it would not make much of a difference in terms of jobs created in the US, if a `European' consortium (EADS-Northrop Grumman) would get this bid, this has been touted as a `loss of jobs' and a `security issue.' Boeing is just using that for their own advantage.

Boeing has gotten complacent and offered a tanker based on a very, very old frame. That's what happens if there is no competition. It's in the Airforce's best interest to diversify and put pressure on both companies to start competing.
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Jun 25, 2008, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
This is mostly a political issue. Even though it would not make much of a difference in terms of jobs created in the US, if a `European' consortium (EADS-Northrop Grumman) would get this bid, this has been touted as a `loss of jobs' and a `security issue.' Boeing is just using that for their own advantage.

Boeing has gotten complacent and offered a tanker based on a very, very old frame. That's what happens if there is no competition. It's in the Airforce's best interest to diversify and put pressure on both companies to start competing.
You are so so wrong. The AF bid team changed the specs mid stream just to make the EAD aircraft fit. You can't do that, and they got slapped for it.
     
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Jun 26, 2008, 05:17 AM
 
Boeing claims that this is what has happened and the GOA followed suit due to political pressure.
Originally Posted by Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-California
"These are the same European governments who are unwilling to support us in the global war on terror and over the last few months refused to provide even an additional 100 soldiers apiece for Afghanistan operations," said Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-California.
Quote taken from this article. It's about emotions and elections.

Why would the USAF favor the `foreign' underdog? Do you remember why the EADS-Northrop Grumman consortium has even had a chance competing? McCain uncovered a big corruption scandal involving USAF officials and Beoing concerning tanker contracts in 2003. The same company that now complains that the competition was `unfair.'
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