[red rocket]

I think it is sad that desktop system designers have missed out on the prime advantage that flatscreens offer over CRT-based approaches, eliminating the necessity to have the user interface at crazy, near-perpendicular angles to the actual desktop.

Viewed in conjunction with already existing touchscreen technologies such as Wacom's Cintiq tablet, the very real possibility of implementing a one-in all interface system as exemplified by Star Trek: The Next Generation's consoles, as early as the mid-1980's, seems exciting enough that the neglect of the industry's No. 1 innovator, our beloved Apple, to provide such a system to the consumer, is all the more aggravating.

Picture it: A touch-sensitive Apple Cinema Display, flat on your desktop, integrated into a larger frame including a virtual keyboard. No more unsightly towers, mini towers, neck problems, sticky keys or anything, just the interface unit, an inch-thick slab of smooth perfection. You step away from it after doing your work or play, it doesn't even look like a computer, just a smooth, elegant top to a desk (or floor, even).

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

It takes time and investment for companies to get to that level of dreamy technology affordable for normal consumers. That investment wouldn't be there if we didn't consume generations of evolving technology first.

[Seb G]

Wouldn't the strain on the neck be worse if we'd have to look down all day? I mean, we were surely designed / have surely evolved (pick your favourite) to look forwards most of the time, not down.

[mac128k-1984]

I don't think it the ergonomics of a screen flat on the desk would work. What about glare from over head florescent lights. There's also neck strain.

Your not seeing this now for a reason, It doesn't work. They've tried sinking a monitor into the desk before. Babies-r-us has them at their registration desk and the people who work there are always seeming to strain to read the monitor.

Looking straight ahead is a lot easier then looking down, especially for long periods of time.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984

I don't think it the ergonomics of a screen flat on the desk would work. What about glare from over head florescent lights. There's also neck strain.

Your not seeing this now for a reason, It doesn't work. They've tried sinking a monitor into the desk before. Babies-r-us has them at their registration desk and the people who work there are always seeming to strain to read the monitor.

Looking straight ahead is a lot easier then looking down, especially for long periods of time.

When I read a book, it's more often than not flat on the table.
When I draw something, it's usually flat on the table.
When I write something (with a pen), it's flat on the table.
When I'm typing (as now), I'm looking straight down at the keyboard (guess where it is.)

I think the reason those people you mention seem to have problems reading the monitor, is because their monitors are of low quality and/or too small. Imagine a 30" display at 300 dpi resolution.

I also find there is less strain on my neck when I don't have to hold my head up, and fewer distractions in my field of vision.

Lights can be changed. Reflections and glare can be eliminated.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I read a book, it's more often than not flat on the table.

Most people would hold a book up when reading. I know nobody who reads a book flat on the table.

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I draw something, it's usually flat on the table.

No ambitious painter does that.

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I write something (with a pen), it's flat on the table.

I give you that, though at times when people had to write a lot with a pen they preferred to have an angle.

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I'm typing (as now), I'm looking straight down at the keyboard (guess where it is.)

If you knew how to type you wouldn't look at the keyboard. You would look at the screen at what you are typing and/or at the original document pinned up to be viewed comfortably.

[iCol]

I have to agree with the majority on this one....

Wacom have made large tablets which incorporate a display for some time now, and yes, they have their uses, and I would love one.

However, for the majority of computer tasks, it is better to have the display at eye height infront of you. Ergonomically, this is why they are there. When you are seated, the top of your monitor should be at approximately eye level, which reduces the amount of repetative strain on your back and neck. If you were forced to use a desk-level display over long periods of time you would probably find people suffering from pretty serious RSI, including a bad back and neck... possibly, in serious cases, resulting in a bad posture.

I do think, however, that this kind of display would be extremely useful as a companion product to use along side (or beneith!) a standard orientation display... however, as we can see with the Wacom product, it would be pricey... possibly too pricey for a company such as Apple to focus resources on R&D, and sell at a competative price. I would like to see a large monitor presented like a drawing board... but that would have to be one big mofo of a display!

Col

[Doofy]

German health and safety (according to the SuSE manual) suggests a monitor position which mimics reading a book - i.e. you're looking slightly down, not straight ahead (the reading graphic posted by Tetenal illustrates it well).
The lampshade iMac manages this perfectly if you've got the monitor at its lowest point and angled back about 10-15 degrees. Newer iMacs are too high (due to the stand). Newer Apple screens are also too high (again, the stand). Laptops are good.

[ajprice]

I want Sean Bean's desk from The Island .

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I read a book, it's more often than not flat on the table.

I don't, I hold it up as I read.

When I draw something, it's usually flat on the table.
When I write something (with a pen), it's flat on the table.

Same here, but we're not talking about drawing and writing.

When I'm typing (as now), I'm looking straight down at the keyboard (guess where it is.)

I don't and a lot of people don't look at the keyboard when they type

Lights can be changed. Reflections and glare can be eliminated.

At a cost and at what benefit. Looking a screen straight ahead is easier more comfortable and does not cause the next to strain. It also does not require a business to change its lighting to adapt to this.

As for writing and drawing. When I am writing or drawing I don't do it for hours on end like I do when I work on the computer, in fact if I find myself writing a lot, I need to take a break as the strain on my neck starts to be noticiable.

In a way Occam's razor fits here "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."
The people who created the terminal then the computer could have sunk a crt into a desk a long time ago but didn't - why. Because it didn't work. There are desks now that have the a hole in the desk for you to slid a monitor through. They don't sell very well because its not natural. I'd rather look straight ahead then down. My spine is happy, my neck is happy and my head is happy. I'm not incurring pain or fatigue in any of those because the display is at eye height.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I read a book, it's more often than not flat on the table.

Actually, most people read with the book parallel to the head. So if you are sitting, you raise it up, if you are at a desk, you probably have it flat. There is no correct way to read a book.

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I draw something, it's usually flat on the table.

Good point... and most drawing tablets are flat..

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I write something (with a pen), it's flat on the table.

Writing is great, but typing is what most people do... we type because it's faster and easier to read.

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I'm typing (as now), I'm looking straight down at the keyboard (guess where it is.)

You shouldn't be looking at the keyboard. If you are, you should learn how to type as it will save hours if not days of your life.

Consider the typewriter.... you may not remember the things that would hold the sheet up so that you could read it. I STILL have one of those for my computer.

[Landos Mustache]

The interfaces on Star Trek have always looked neat from far away but are impossible to use logically close up.

[Jawbone54]

I think some people just want to mimic Star Trek.

[olePigeon]

iRobot had a nice interface.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I write something (with a pen), it's flat on the table.

And mice are usually flat on a table as well.

[Gossamer]

There's one lab here at school that has the monitors placed under the desk and a see-through portion in the desktop itself, so that you look forward and down to see the monitor, but your desktop is still clear. It's not straight down, but I can imagine getting neck and eye straight from looking straight down.

[©öñFü$íóÑ]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

I think some people just want to mimic Star Trek.

heheheheh!! OH YEAH!

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Minority Report had the best interfaces.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

Minority Report had the best interfaces.

That was sarcasm right?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Great Post

If I truly wanted to kill my neck and back, I'd spend all day bent over a flat animation desk. Really doesn't make a difference if it's a wacom or traditional pen and paper.

Most professional drafting/drawing/painting etc. is done on a slanted surface. I even sometimes stand while drawing, as sitting is actually pretty un-natural and hard on the human body for long periods of time.

Just an observation, but I tend to notice that non-pros who don't have a good line, or the best pen/pencil/brush control want to rest their hand on the work surface, and so work flat. Pros with complete pen/pencil/brush control work without thier hand touching the work surface, and tend to prefer an elevated/slanted surface.

[KeyLimePi]

Good News!

[::maroma::]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nXHd...arch=interface

Gettin close.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nXHd...arch=interface

Gettin close.

That's a really cool vid!

[loki74]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Most people would hold a book up when reading. I know nobody who reads a book flat on the table.

I give you that, though at times when people had to write a lot with a pen they preferred to have an angle.

If you knew how to type you wouldn't look at the keyboard. You would look at the screen at what you are typing and/or at the original document pinned up to be viewed comfortably.

exactly.

Furthermore, drawing cannot be accurately analagous to typing. Drawing is much more engaging, more motion is involved, etc. When I draw, paint, or make any type of art on a flat surface, I almost NEVER am in the same, hunched over position, for an extended amount of time.

This is why the Wacom devices, including the Cintiq, lay more flat--both a flat and vertical surface are ideal for making art, but in smaller sizes, a flat surface is better.

However, I must confess-I keep my 23" LCD at an angle... it is still more vertical than horizontal, but it is much better on the eyes and my posture in general than if it where perfectly vertical.

PS in this post, by "flat" i mean horizontal...

[MM-o4]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Good News!

hahaha. lovely

MM

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nXHd...arch=interface

Gettin close.

Now THAT was awesome!

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nXHd...arch=interface

Gettin close.

Did anyone hapopen to notice the screen was mounted at an angle to the user's position? Flat surfaces don't work for most things because--as someone already said--our bodies are oriented for an upright, forward-facing interaction with the world.

[tutelary]

Originally Posted by red rocket

When I'm typing (as now), I'm looking straight down at the keyboard (guess where it is.)

lol

[pierrelourens]

The only place I can see a flat, or angled, computer screen as mentioned in this thread or on the video, is in a store or a restaurant. It's more likely to be seen at an angle, so that users can use it easily while standing.

Now that I think about it, my local McDonalds has computers away from the counter where you can order, and almost every Target across the country has gift-registry. Touch-screen technology like this has been around forever, just not in the home or office. When you have to do something reptively, like programming, you need an ergonomic workspace -- the monitor's top is at eye level and your keyboarding techniques are correct. Ordering a BigMac doesn't require as much ergnomics.

[©öñFü$íóÑ]

Originally Posted by ::maroma::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nXHd...arch=interface

Gettin close.

I want one...

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Most people would hold a book up when reading. I know nobody who reads a book flat on the table.

Depends on the book. Try reading heavy, large-format reference books that way, you'll find it pretty strenuous, I should think. Also, if you're doing something else at the same time, like doodling or taking notes, it's more practical to have it flat.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

No ambitious painter does that.

Ambitious painters not drawing on tables? Where did you get that idea? Of course some do. There are occasions where one would use an easel, occasions where one wouldn't (or couldn't). Anyway, I wasn't talking about painters or painting.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

If you knew how to type you wouldn't look at the keyboard.

I'm not constantly looking at it, just sometimes, as I tend to type a bit faster and more accurately when doing so. Do you never look at it? The point I was trying to make was that the keyboard is lying flat on the desk, which would appear to be the de facto dumping ground for everything apart from the screen.

Originally Posted by TETENAL

You would look at the screen at what you are typing

If you know how to type, you should already know what it is that you are typing, what then is to be gained from looking at it onscreen?

Originally Posted by TETENAL

and/or at the original document pinned up to be viewed comfortably.

If the screen was flat on the table, I could just lay the original document next to it. No need to pin anything up.

--------------------------------

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Most professional drafting/drawing/painting etc. is done on a slanted surface. I even sometimes stand while drawing, as sitting is actually pretty un-natural and hard on the human body for long periods of time.

I regularly stand up. Which results in the screen being at an awkward viewing angle. With the horizontal screen model, I could stand up and continue typing, the viewing angle remaining perfect.

--------------------------------

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

Actually, most people read with the book parallel to the head. So if you are sitting, you raise it up, if you are at a desk, you probably have it flat. There is no correct way to read a book.

Good point. I guess I'm more used to looking down than straight ahead when seated at desks, hence my interest in having the screen down there.

[pierrelourens]

Frankly, I am more enthralled by Microsoft's prototype demonstrated at CES -- three humongous monitors at eye level. Looking down doesn't seem so bad for a couple minutes, but when you have to do it for 8 hours a day, every day of the week, not being ergonomic really does not pay off. The ideal situation is to have your feet flat on the ground, your wrists up but not arched, the top of the screen in line with eye site. The user should always keep their eyes on the monitor. If you are a typing a report, it should not be flat on the table, but pinned up or being held up, to the right of the monitor.

...I learned this in third grade. When your office space really is ideal and you have correct typing skills, your stress and pain is seriously gone.

[mac128k-1984]

The bottom line is that people find the easiest and best approach to working and for computers its having the monitor at (or near) eye level.

Take the book argument, while big heavy reference books can only be viewed flat on a table, the clear majority of people reading is doing so at or near eye level - why because its more natural to be looking straight ahead reading.

Artists and graphic artists seem to also to prefer working on the vertical as opposed to having their work lay flat on the table.

Nothing is 100% but clearly the majority of reading, painting, and computer work lend themselves better when not laying flat on the desk or table.

Also consider (as others have mentioned) the human spine and the impact of having to work looking down for long stretches of time. Its not natural and would be prone to issues, heck look at people who type all day, they are prone to carpel tunnel syndrome because the hands are not meant to do the same repetitive task all day eveyday. Don't you think the spine could incur similar types of issues if you had too look down at a monitor all day every day? Besides the glare would still be a problem regardless if a company tried to change the lighting, its just the nature of the beast. You need an office bright enough to work, and that bright light causes reflections.