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Why Hillary Sucks
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subego
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May 29, 2017, 03:04 PM
 
If people want to talk more about this I can be accommodating.

Had Hillary done any one of the following, she would be president.

Gotten out in front of the emails.
Admitted she was feeling ill.
Had a coherent message.
Actually liked people rather than merely tolerating them.
Taken oration tips from her personal friends, the two greatest living orators.
Not thinking Arizona is in play... Arizona FFS.
Having her husband talk to poor, white people.
     
subego  (op)
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May 29, 2017, 03:24 PM
 
Made a deal with Sanders.
Not used "basket of deplorables".
Been less paranoid.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 29, 2017, 03:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If people want to talk more about this I can be accommodating.

Had Hillary done any one of the following, she would be president.

Gotten out in front of the emails.
Admitted she was feeling ill.
Had a coherent message.
Actually liked people rather than merely tolerating them.
Taken oration tips from her personal friends, the two greatest living orators.
Not thinking Arizona is in play... Arizona FFS.
Having her husband talk to poor, white people.
I've given this thought and as with any catastrophic outcome, it's not one thing that can be pointed to, but a litany of things that go wrong.

On my phone but add had any charisma, or want so lazy/entitled that she used a private server.
     
reader50
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May 29, 2017, 04:07 PM
 
I've had a poor opinion of Hillary since she was first lady. Bill cheated on her, and she didn't dump him. Not even after he left office. Apparently for political expediency - she'd have trouble being elected later if she cut him loose. This would qualify her as a mainstream politician, but I've come to believe the office of President should be held by someone better than that.

Apparently I'm not the mainstream public. My chances of voting for Hillary would have gone up dramatically, not down, if she'd held Bill accountable. I don't care if a candidate is married or not - I'm not voting for the spouse. High-level politicians don't seem to be held accountable for anything today - it would have been a breath of fresh air in my opinion.

Then the Dem party chiefs undermined Bernie's campaign. That's election tampering - but has anyone been punished? Charged? Held accountable in any way? Hillary might have known, though that is speculative. There doesn't seem to be any investigation happening.

Addressing all the complaints subego raised would help. I'm not sure if it would have gotten my vote, but I'd have at least considered her. The "had a coherent message" would have helped me the most. She just sounded like business as usual in DC.
     
subego  (op)
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May 29, 2017, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I've given this thought and as with any catastrophic outcome, it's not one thing that can be pointed to, but a litany of things that go wrong.

On my phone but add had any charisma, or want so lazy/entitled that she used a private server.
Amusingly, another thing we can pin on Hillary is the proposition her loss could be based on one thing. After a period of introspection, she's determined Comey is the one thing that can be pointed to.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 29, 2017, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Amusingly, another thing we can pin on Hillary is the proposition her loss could be based on one thing. After a period of introspection, she's determined Comey is the one thing that can be pointed to.
I'd say hes the second biggest factor. That timing was catastrophic as well. But without the private server there is no opportunity for Comey to interfere.
     
subego  (op)
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May 29, 2017, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I've had a poor opinion of Hillary since she was first lady. Bill cheated on her, and she didn't dump him. Not even after he left office. Apparently for political expediency - she'd have trouble being elected later if she cut him loose. This would qualify her as a mainstream politician, but I've come to believe the office of President should be held by someone better than that.

Apparently I'm not the mainstream public. My chances of voting for Hillary would have gone up dramatically, not down, if she'd held Bill accountable. I don't care if a candidate is married or not - I'm not voting for the spouse. High-level politicians don't seem to be held accountable for anything today - it would have been a breath of fresh air in my opinion.

Then the Dem party chiefs undermined Bernie's campaign. That's election tampering - but has anyone been punished? Charged? Held accountable in any way? Hillary might have known, though that is speculative. There doesn't seem to be any investigation happening.

Addressing all the complaints subego raised would help. I'm not sure if it would have gotten my vote, but I'd have at least considered her. The "had a coherent message" would have helped me the most. She just sounded like business as usual in DC.
I guess there's no reason to mince words here. It wasn't cheating... the Clintons have an open marriage. The problem was he got caught.

I didn't dig too deeply into the DNC shenanigans, but I got the impression their tricks were dirty but legal.
     
subego  (op)
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May 29, 2017, 04:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'd say hes the second biggest factor. That timing was catastrophic as well. But without the private server there is no opportunity for Comey to interfere.
My (somewhat rhetorical) thesis is she lost by such a razor thin margin, even something far less significant could have tipped the scales.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 29, 2017, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My (somewhat rhetorical) thesis is she lost by such a razor thin margin, even something far less significant could have tipped the scales.
Sure, but that's thing with a catastrophic outcome. You need everything and the kitchen sink to occur. Every little thing adds up. Which includes white resentment, anti-establishment backlash, and poor campaign strategy.
     
andi*pandi
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May 29, 2017, 06:12 PM
 
Somehow I feel that we've covered all this before, in multiple threads. I also question the relevance at this point. Hillary who? She's not involved in current government, so why distract everyone by rehashing her downsides AGAIN?
     
The Final Dakar
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May 29, 2017, 06:30 PM
 
Any time she comes into the public sphere the entire post election dynamic reignites.
     
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May 29, 2017, 06:53 PM
 
2016 called, it wants its thread back. Hillary Clinton is retired, she doesn't hold any public office, and has no influence on today's political agenda. Bringing her up now is a giant waste of everybody's time and deflects from the important issues at hand.
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The Final Dakar
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May 29, 2017, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I didn't dig too deeply into the DNC shenanigans, but I got the impression their tricks were dirty but legal.
It's a private organization. They get to do all kinds of ****ed up shit because they aren't technically part of the government. Apparently being fair isn't part of the law.
     
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May 29, 2017, 07:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I've had a poor opinion of Hillary since she was first lady. Bill cheated on her, and she didn't dump him. Not even after he left office. Apparently for political expediency - she'd have trouble being elected later if she cut him loose. This would qualify her as a mainstream politician, but I've come to believe the office of President should be held by someone better than that.
Like Trump.
     
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May 29, 2017, 07:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Any time she comes into the public sphere the entire post election dynamic reignites.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
2016 called, it wants its thread back. Hillary Clinton is retired, she doesn't hold any public office, and has no influence on today's political agenda. Bringing her up now is a giant waste of everybody's time and deflects from the important issues at hand.
Then this stuff happens.
45/47
     
subego  (op)
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May 29, 2017, 09:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I also question the relevance at this point.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Bringing her up now is a giant waste of everybody's time
I go where the clicks are.
     
subego  (op)
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May 29, 2017, 09:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Then this stuff happens.
Okay, that's awesome.

"I love Hillary. She's full of... energy."
     
Waragainstsleep
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May 30, 2017, 06:35 AM
 
Nothing on your list would have changed the election result.

Trump won because he got the most attention and the most airplay. Like a crappy song that gets to number one because it gets stuck in everyone's head. Its that simple. Also the 30 years of vitriolic hatred the Republicans constantly spouted against Hillary.

A brainwashing double whammy.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego  (op)
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May 30, 2017, 06:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Nothing on your list would have changed the election result.

Trump won because he got the most attention and the most airplay. Like a crappy song that gets to number one because it gets stuck in everyone's head. Its that simple. Also the 30 years of vitriolic hatred the Republicans constantly spouted against Hillary.

A brainwashing double whammy.
I firmly disagree. He barely won and Hillary was spectacularly awful.
     
subego  (op)
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May 30, 2017, 06:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Sure, but that's thing with a catastrophic outcome. You need everything and the kitchen sink to occur. Every little thing adds up. Which includes white resentment, anti-establishment backlash, and poor campaign strategy.
I do want to be fair to Hillary. There were definitely things which harmed her that were out of her control. First on the list is she had enormous shoes to fill. Like, size 50.

However, I'm not sure I agree with the idea of this being catastrophic. Her massive list of flaws aren't an "occurrence".

It's not really the perfect storm which sinks the boat that leaves the harbor with a giant hole...

That Jack built.
     
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May 30, 2017, 07:04 AM
 
Hillary lost because she ****ed over one of her own. That one election has cost the Dems dearly and it'll take decades for them to recover, all because a tiny number of the Leftist elite believed it was Hillary's turn. What's worse, those same people are currently burning every bit of political, and social, currency they have in a futile attempt at derailing Trump, a guy who is incapable of even feeling shame (and will never be impeached, let alone removed from office, due to the Repubs holding congress). All they'll get for their troubles is an even greater distrust of the media outlets who go to bat for them and an angrier base of opposition come the midterms.
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May 30, 2017, 07:09 AM
 
In hindsight, that she was so utterly clueless what to do with Democrats, it's no surprise she was out over her skis when it came to dealing with Republicans.
     
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May 30, 2017, 07:25 AM
 
We have the numbers now, we know what mattered. Black turnout dropped a lot, which mattered in the swing states and is responsible for most of the polling error there (perhaps not the Wisconsin miss). Late deciders broke for Trump by a massive margin - that is where the Comey emails come in to it. The Sanders supporters did come out for her, though, as witnessed by the big victory margins in traditionally blue states. Don't blame the Bernie Bros for this mess - they may have held their noses while doing it, but by and large they did vote for her.

I think strategy-wise Clinton made an error in that she tried to win a lot of states, trying to hit the Obama map from 2008 and even improve on that instead of focusing on a single path to 270. I also think that she underestimated her problems in the Midwest from the start. She picked a running mate from Virginia, which is fine because it strengthened her position there, but there were no neighboring states where he could give her a chance. I think she needed someone from the Rust belt, much like Obama did.

Most of this doesn't matter next time. Hillary won't run again, Dems will take the Rust Belt seriously next time, and I'm sure they will pick someone more likable. The turnout is a problem, though - the changing demographics won't matter if they don't come out to vote.
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May 30, 2017, 12:46 PM
 
I'm liking Elizabeth Warren to run, and I think she has a great chance as a sort of younger Bernie Sanders without the socialist label.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 30, 2017, 12:47 PM
 
'Younger'
     
subego  (op)
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May 30, 2017, 12:50 PM
 
Liz works for me.
     
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May 30, 2017, 12:50 PM
 
Yeah, she is only 8 years younger, so in 4 years she'll be about the age Trump is now.
     
besson3c
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May 30, 2017, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Liz works for me.
On a first name basis with her?

You must have had sex with her. Again? This is the only explanation.
     
subego  (op)
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May 30, 2017, 12:57 PM
 
Liz gets around.
     
reader50
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May 30, 2017, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Then the Dem party chiefs undermined Bernie's campaign. That's election tampering - but has anyone been punished? Charged? Held accountable in any way?
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I didn't dig too deeply into the DNC shenanigans, but I got the impression their tricks were dirty but legal.
What I was referring to is the F.E.C. is disfunctional. Link is to a resignation explanation by commissioner Ann Ravel, who has formerly been a chairwoman of the FEC. The FEC is made up of 6 commissioners: 3 Democrats and 3 Republicans. She mostly complains about the Republican commissioners blocking investigations, but it's possible the Dems don't allow investigations of Dem shenanigans either.

Regardless of whether one or both parties block investigations, the FEC is neutralized. There is no enforcement of elections wrongdoing, illegal or just dirty. Between FEC paralysis and Citizens United, I view elections fairness issues as corruption threatening our democracy. The two major parties are to blame - 3rd parties are not represented on the FEC. My solution would be to block the two biggest parties from holding more than 1 seat each on the FEC, and Citizens United needs to be overturned. By a new Amendment if need be.
( Last edited by reader50; May 30, 2017 at 01:07 PM. Reason: fixed link)
     
subego  (op)
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May 30, 2017, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
On a first name basis with her?

You must have had sex with her. Again? This is the only explanation.
I'm a little irritated at her for not doing Bernie, though.


Forgot another Hillary flaw.

Holding a grudge forever.


I leave whether these two are related as an exercise for the reader.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 30, 2017, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
What I was referring to is the F.E.C. is disfunctional. Link is to a resignation explanation by commissioner Ann Ravel, who has formerly been a chairwoman of the FEC. The FEC is made up of 6 commissioners: 3 Democrats and 3 Republicans. She mostly complains about the Republican commissioners blocking investigations, but it's possible the Dems don't allow investigations of Dem shenanigans either.

Regardless of whether one or both parties block investigations, the FEC is neutralized. There is no enforcement of elections wrongdoing, illegal or just dirty. Between FEC paralysis and Citizens United, I view elections fairness issues as corruption threatening our democracy. The two major parties are to blame - 3rd parties are not represented on the FEC. My solution would be to block the two biggest parties from holding more than 1 seat each on the FEC, and Citizens United needs to be overturned. By a new Amendment if need be.
The guy who ****ed up the FEC (intentionally) is now White House counsel
     
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May 30, 2017, 08:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I firmly disagree. He barely won and Hillary was spectacularly awful.
No single item on your list was a big deal. Even put together they wouldn't have made enough of a difference. He may have lost the popular vote by a distance but he won the college votes by much more than hairs breadth.

The damage was done by the 30 year hate campaign against Hillary. The fact that you think she was spectacularly awful rather than just a bit dull or inadequate proves my point. You were as taken in by it as many others were.
She should have been able to win without trying. Instead she never stood a chance because the GOP and the RW media programmed America to hate her years in advance.

All Trump had to do was convince some (apparently very stupid) people that he was actually electable. That just required enough exposure, which he got in spades by saying dreadful things at a rate of several per minute.
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May 30, 2017, 08:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Hillary lost because she ****ed over one of her own.
There are at least as many Americans who would see this as a show of strength as there are who would see it as an unforgivable betrayal. At least if anyone but her had done it. Amongst the voters she needed to win over, I expect there are even more in the former camp than the latter.
If a man had done it, I think you'd have been impressed. Not that you'll admit it.
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subego  (op)
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May 30, 2017, 10:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
He may have lost the popular vote by a distance but he won the college votes by much more than hairs breadth.
Because in the Electoral College the winner of a state takes all. With less than 110,000 votes she could have flipped three states and won.

Calling this a hair's breadth is charitable. She won the popular vote by more than 25 times this amount.
     
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May 30, 2017, 11:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The fact that you think she was spectacularly awful rather than just a bit dull or inadequate proves my point. You were as taken in by it as many others were.
My argument for what makes her spectacularly awful is she chose not to address the dozen-plus flaws listed so far, any one of which could have made a 110,000 vote difference.
     
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May 31, 2017, 02:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Yeah, she is only 8 years younger, so in 4 years she'll be about the age Trump is now.
Biden is clearly thinking about running. He's not exactly young either.
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May 31, 2017, 02:59 AM
 
Trump won't run for reelection. IMO, it's likely the frontrunners for the Repubs will be Pence, Rubio, and Rand Paul (the last two would likely crush anyone the Dems can muster).
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May 31, 2017, 03:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Trump won't run for reelection. IMO, it's likely the frontrunners for the Repubs will be Pence, Rubio, and Rand Paul (the last two would likely crush anyone the Dems can muster).
I guess it's all downside for him.

He's proved he's the most awesome human being on the planet. He's also now discovered that the job involves a metric s**t ton of work that he's barely prepared to do. Running again and risking going down as the first one termer since Carter would puncture his balloon. By bailing after one term he gets to keep his awesomeness and bang on about whoever came next screwed up all his good work.
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May 31, 2017, 03:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My argument for what makes her spectacularly awful is she chose not to address the dozen-plus flaws listed so far, any one of which could have made a 110,000 vote difference.
She didn't address the flaws because she didn't think they existed.
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May 31, 2017, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
She didn't address the flaws because she didn't think they existed.
Another thing for the list.
     
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May 31, 2017, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
the first one termer since Carter
While I agree with the substance of your post, you have forgotten George H. W. Bush, who lost to Bill Clinton after his first term.
     
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May 31, 2017, 05:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
While I agree with the substance of your post, you have forgotten George H. W. Bush, who lost to Bill Clinton after his first term.
oops yes sorry. Stupid of me.
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May 31, 2017, 06:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Trump won't run for reelection. IMO, it's likely the frontrunners for the Repubs will be Pence, Rubio, and Rand Paul (the last two would likely crush anyone the Dems can muster).
Without knowing who the Dems would run it is hard to guess, but I do think that Rubio in particular would be very hard to beat - if he survives the primary. He has FL locked up, he will likely mean a GOP boost among latinos, he is fairly young, and he is hard to run a hate campaign against.

Do you really think Trump won't run again?I would think he is addicted to the crowds by now.
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May 31, 2017, 07:23 AM
 
He seems to hate the job, though, and has very thin skin.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 31, 2017, 09:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
He seems to hate the job, though, and has very thin skin.
Counterpoint: This describes Trump
     
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May 31, 2017, 12:58 PM
 
There is video of Trump talking about eight years as well.
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...29194906038272
Great meetings will take place today at Trump Tower concerning the formation of the people who will run our government for the next 8 years.
45/47
     
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May 31, 2017, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Counterpoint: This describes Trump
He was commenting about Trump.
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May 31, 2017, 01:31 PM
 
Yes. I'm ultimately confused by the statement, and/or missed the joke.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 31, 2017, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yes. I'm ultimately confused by the statement, and/or missed the joke.
I honestly thought you were talking about Rubio. He talked about hating working in the senate and he's easily flustered.
     
 
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