[lizardgator]

I just noticed on Appleinsider that Intel will be releasing it's Merom processor the successor to the current Core Duo chip in August. Does anyone know if Merom will be a big leap forward compared to the current core duo? I did a google search and found a site that said the Merom chip will have a 20% performance increase at the same power level which doesn't seem that great to me. Since it said at "the same power level" am I correct in assuming that battery life will not be that much better than the current core duo chip? I can wait for a Merom MacBook Pro if the wait is worth it.

[mduell]

Yea, Intel stated at the most recent Intel Developers Forum (a couple months ago) that the switch from Yonah (current Core Duo) to Merom will improve performance by about 20% at launch and keep power levels the same place they are today. Even with the same TDP battery life may improve with more power-saving tweaks at less-than-full-load, or it may get worse with more power hungry components elsewhere in the system.

[wupboxer]

I'd guess battery life would go up a tiny bit. Let's see if I can muster up some logic for this one

Ok, so Merom won't be clocked 20% faster than Yonah. Instead, it'll be 20% more efficient doing what it does, at the same power level. So, consider your cpu is currently maxxed out, exporting a quicktime video. Considering that quicktime will take advantage of AS MUCH of the CPU as it can, your CPU usage will stay at 100%. However, it will take 20% less time to finish. In addition, processes that take only 50% of the processor will probably only grab 40 or 30% to execute. So, the book will get tough, current guzzling tasks finished sooner, allowing more idle time, and lowering power usage.

What could totally throw all this off? Well... merom will be clocked higher than Yonah! I'm expecting to see the lowest clocked Merom at 2.0ghz. Which, yes, requires more energy to run anyways. So it's possible that any energy saving benefits will be negated, simply because of the bump in Speed, available L2 cache (a huge energy waste) and possibly Bus speed (??).

As to whether or not to buy your new laptop now? It depends if you NEED it now. Honestly, if you wait for Merom, your new powerbook will have to do a LOT of computing to catch up to what the Yonah could accomplish in the same amount of time. As for pure numbers, since Merom is based upon Conroe, and Conroe is about 30% more efficient than Yonah, you're looking at a hefty bump. In addition! I do believe that the lowest clocked Meroms will be 2 - 2.16ghz. A 2.16ghz Merom will have both a 334mhz clockspeed and a 30% efficiency bonus over the Yonah. In my books, that's 30-45% actualized performance increase... which'll make a huge difference for Rosetta apps, if nothing else. If you can wait, I'd say wait... I am.

Oh and PS... August is a overestimate... Most current sources agree that Merom will be released in Q3 of this year, and it'll take at least a week or 2 to get them into the MBPs. I'd expect september or october really.

[Toyin]

Wait if you can. Cycle speeds of Merom are up to 2.33ghz now. Merom will have up to 4MB of L2 cache and be 64 bit. So it's possible that the next generation of MBPs may support more than 2gb of RAM.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Toyin

Wait if you can. Cycle speeds of Merom are up to 2.33ghz now. Merom will have up to 4MB of L2 cache and be 64 bit. So it's possible that the next generation of MBPs may support more than 2gb of RAM.

The current MacBook Pro supports 4GB RAM. Merom will be using the same chipset at launch (Santa Rosa won't be out until next year), so the memory limit will stay at 4GB until at least the first refresh in 2007.

[Zyphere]

Oh and PS... August is a overestimate... Most current sources agree that Merom will be released in Q3 of this year, and it'll take at least a week or 2 to get them into the MBPs. I'd expect september or october really.

August is mid-Q3 so it's actually a pretty fair estimate; July will be the earliest Merom gets here if the sources claiming Q3 are correct, and September the latest. I'd like to see 'em in MBPs though before September, as I'd most likely be picking one up then.

[mduell]

Intel recently states Woodcrest in June, Conroe in July, and Merom in August. Right in time for a PowerBook and iMac refresh.

[b11051973]

Merom is one thing I'm waiting for before getting a MBP. I also want 802.11n built in.

My 867 MHz 12" PB is really showing its age. I've been using it more and more for watching video podcasts and such. The thing can do it, but it's definitely slow to get going. I'm thinking next February or so will be time for the upgrade, after MacWorld.

[Jerome]

I'm waiting for the next major OS X revision: 10.5 before I get a Macbook... Maybe I'll get a 2-for-1. Will 10.5 be a 64bit OS?

[Tuoder]

Originally Posted by Jerome

I'm waiting for the next major OS X revision: 10.5 before I get a Macbook... Maybe I'll get a 2-for-1. Will 10.5 be a 64bit OS?

OSX is 64-bit. I know that it is more complicated than that, but G5s are 64-bit, and so is OSX.

[Jerome]

You are right, I'm working on 64 bit G5 right now, I just stupidly forgot that it's just that current Intel offerings in Apple's line-up are not.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Tuoder

OSX is 64-bit. I know that it is more complicated than that, but G5s are 64-bit, and so is OSX.

No, it's not. There are a few 64-bit libraries and extensions, but much of the OS is still 32-bit.

[Tuoder]

Originally Posted by Tuoder

OSX is 64-bit. I know that it is more complicated than that, but G5s are 64-bit, and so is OSX.

Note the bold.

[mduell]

G5s are also 32-bit, and so is OSX.
Waving your hands doesn't make it all 64-bit.

[Toyin]

Originally Posted by mduell

The current MacBook Pro supports 4GB RAM. Merom will be using the same chipset at launch (Santa Rosa won't be out until next year), so the memory limit will stay at 4GB until at least the first refresh in 2007.

From what I understand the MacBook Pro only supports up 2 gb of RAM .

Though this seems to be more a limitation of the OS than the motherboard (There is a Dell laptop with the same motherboard that supports 4gb of RAM). However if what you say is true, and Merom uses the same motherboard then they might place the same limitations on it.

[Tuoder]

Originally Posted by Toyin

From what I understand the MacBook Pro only supports up 2 gb of RAM .

Though this seems to be more a limitation of the OS than the motherboard (There is a Dell laptop with the same motherboard that supports 4gb of RAM). However if what you say is true, and Merom uses the same motherboard then they might place the same limitations on it.

He is right about the limitation. The only reason why you can't get 4GBs in there is because there aren't any 2GB RAM sticks yet.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

In computing, the PowerPC 970, PowerPC 970FX, PowerPC 970GX, and PowerPC 970MP, also known as PowerPC G5, are 64-bit processors in the PowerPC family from IBM, which was introduced in 2002.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/64bit/

Originally Posted by Apple

Tiger supports the industry standard LP64 programming model supported by other 64-bit Unix systems. This means developers can easily port 64-bit code to Tiger. LP64 support in Tiger provides for 64-bit pointer, long and long long but preserves 32-bit integer data types.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Toyin

From what I understand the MacBook Pro only supports up 2 gb of RAM .

Though this seems to be more a limitation of the OS than the motherboard (There is a Dell laptop with the same motherboard that supports 4gb of RAM). However if what you say is true, and Merom uses the same motherboard then they might place the same limitations on it.

Intel says the chipset supports 4GB, and it wouldn't be the first Mac where Apple understated the maximum memory capacity. That link also claims that only DDR2-667 is supported, while Intel's documentation and users have reported that slower speeds also work.

Originally Posted by Tuoder

He is right about the limitation. The only reason why you can't get 4GBs in there is because there aren't any 2GB RAM sticks yet.

Crucial has 2GB DDR2-667 SO-DIMMs available.

Regarding your quotes about the G5 and OSX, they're correct but incomplete. The G5 supports both 32 and 64-bit and much of OSX (such as all of the user interface code) is still 32-bit.
Note that the exclusively 64-bit OSs (Windows and Linux are the big two) require different drivers than their 32-bit counterparts, while OSX does not when running on a 64-bit machine.
In other words, 64-bit apps are supported in some ways (via 64-bit libraries and extensions), but the OS is not 64-bit.

[TailsToo]

Originally Posted by b11051973

Merom is one thing I'm waiting for before getting a MBP. I also want 802.11n built in.

My 867 MHz 12" PB is really showing its age. I've been using it more and more for watching video podcasts and such. The thing can do it, but it's definitely slow to get going. I'm thinking next February or so will be time for the upgrade, after MacWorld.

I'm right there with you... plus I want 10.5 on it as well.

[SEkker]

I'm just glad that all this discussion is about options ahead of us -- in the next 12 months!

We've been stuck with machines only slightly better year over year for the past 4, it's hard to imagine this terrific MBP is just the beginning.

[fafnir]

Don't you guys ever learn something?
If you want/need a computer, get it NOW!

Imagine fast-forward to late August:
Apple announces the MacBook Pro with slightly higher clocked Intel Merom CPU. They are shipping in 5-10 business days.

Late September:
After a waiting time of only 3 weeks they are finally available in stock.

October:
Bitching about some obscure sound or display problems.

November:
Endless arguments, if you should buy a new MacBook now or should be waiting till MacWorld in January.

January:
Repeat.

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by fafnir

Don't you guys ever learn something?
If you want/need a computer, get it NOW!

Imagine fast-forward to late August:
Apple announces the MacBook Pro with slightly higher clocked Intel Merom CPU. They are shipping in 5-10 business days.

Late September:
After a waiting time of only 3 weeks they are finally available in stock.

October:
Bitching about some obscure sound or display problems.

November:
Endless arguments, if you should buy a new MacBook now or should be waiting till MacWorld in January.

January:
Repeat.

I, for one, was not complaining. I'm delighted with my MBP that will only get better as all the software I need becomes universal so I can enjoy this speed boost across the board.

[workerbee]

Originally Posted by mduell

Crucial has 2GB DDR2-667 SO-DIMMs available

Has anyone bit the (expensive) bullet and tested this? Crucial does not recommend the 2GB DIMMs for the MBP themselves...

[Toyin]

Originally Posted by fafnir

Don't you guys ever learn something?
If you want/need a computer, get it NOW!

Imagine fast-forward to late August:
Apple announces the MacBook Pro with slightly higher clocked Intel Merom CPU. They are shipping in 5-10 business days.

Late September:
After a waiting time of only 3 weeks they are finally available in stock.

October:
Bitching about some obscure sound or display problems.

November:
Endless arguments, if you should buy a new MacBook now or should be waiting till MacWorld in January.

January:
Repeat.

You're assuming that I NEED a computer now, I don't. My 1.5ghz powerbook is plodding along fine. The MBPs are tempting because we're finally getting desktop performance in a laptop. Personally I'd like to see a 64 bit laptop.

If you don't need a computer right now, it's always wise to wait until you do.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by workerbee

Has anyone bit the (expensive) bullet and tested this? Crucial does not recommend the 2GB DIMMs for the MBP themselves...

Crucial is just following Apple's official guideline (linked to above).
I, too, am hoping someone will try it.

[workerbee]

Originally Posted by mduell

I, too, am hoping someone will try it.

Well, what are you waiting for?!

[mduell]

Originally Posted by workerbee

Well, what are you waiting for?!

You to paypal me $2000 for the MBP and $1400 for the memory... whatcha waiting for?

[markponcelet]

Originally Posted by Toyin

You're assuming that I NEED a computer now, I don't. My 1.5ghz powerbook is plodding along fine. The MBPs are tempting because we're finally getting desktop performance in a laptop. Personally I'd like to see a 64 bit laptop.

If you don't need a computer right now, it's always wise to wait until you do.

I own a 1.67 Rev D 17" powerbook. I normally follow that same logic -- wait until your computer is useless before buying a new one. This time, however, I broke that rule and bought the Rev. A (*shudder*) MacBook Pro 17". My logic was this:

1) Windows can run natively, meaning I can finally give my workstation at work the field-goal punt.

2) Windows can run nateively, meaning I can play PC games.

3) The new laptop gives me double the VRAM and dual-layer DVD burning, which will be very fun for hobies.

There are some cons, though:

1) It's Rev. A. I hate unstable hardware. I especially hate computer whines and noises, which this one is likely to have.

2) It's not 64-bit.


Basically, I decided that the extra features I'd get for buying a new laptop a couple of years early would be worth the extra cost. :-) Will I be upset when the newer models come out at the end of the year? Probably. But until then, I get to take advantage of the new hardware.

Besides: The sooner you buy a new computer, the sooner you can sell the older one. And the sooner you sell the older one, the more money you'll get out of it. If I wait two years, this powerbook might be a little obsolete.

[b11051973]

Originally Posted by fafnir

Don't you guys ever learn something?
If you want/need a computer, get it NOW!

I would remove the word "want" from that. If I bought a new computer everytime I wanted one, I'd be getting one every 6 months. I'm waiting for certain technologies because I can. The slowness of my current PB isn't driving so nuts to upgrade just yet.

I want to upgrade really bad. I went to the Apple Store one day after the MBP was first released. If they had the 15" with the 2.16GHz in stock, I think I would have left with one. I'm now glad I waited.

[markponcelet]

Originally Posted by b11051973

I would remove the word "want" from that. If I bought a new computer everytime I wanted one, I'd be getting one every 6 months. I'm waiting for certain technologies because I can. The slowness of my current PB isn't driving so nuts to upgrade just yet.

Heh. Yes. My point was just that the MBPs finally offer enough features to make me break my normal thrifty ways. :-) If I actually thought I'd be able to make much use of a 64-bit laptop withiin the next three years, I might have waited.

Might. :-)

I just can't wait to pull an Office Space maneuver on my workstation at work. Oh, how thrilling that will be.

[Yakov]

Imagine fast-forward to late August:
Apple announces the MacBook Pro with slightly higher clocked Intel Merom CPU. They are shipping in 5-10 business days.

Late September:
After a waiting time of only 3 weeks they are finally available in stock.

October:
Bitching about some obscure sound or display problems.

November:
Endless arguments, if you should buy a new MacBook now or should be waiting till MacWorld in January.

January:

"I read on macrumors that OS 10.5 is coming rrrrrrealy soon! AND IT'S GOING TO BE THE BEST EVER OMG!!!!11"

(February: Powerbook G5s for everyone! *bonk*)

[gentryfunk]

I have a 15" PPC final rev with DVD-DL and other goodies. I have played with a MBP at CompUSA and with one my friends has and actually did a few side by side tests. The MBP feels faster, but in actual use, I did not notice a huge difference in speed. The only real difference was in Photoshop, as everyone already knows. I agree that waiting until the MBP is significantly improved makes more sense than diving in now.

[Toyin]

Originally Posted by Toyin

You're assuming that I NEED a computer now, I don't. My 1.5ghz powerbook is plodding along fine. The MBPs are tempting because we're finally getting desktop performance in a laptop. Personally I'd like to see a 64 bit laptop.

If you don't need a computer right now, it's always wise to wait until you do.

Karma is a

Yesterday I noticed my Powerbook was really sluggish. The new 7200rpm hard drive was constantly spinning. I check my ram and it reads 512mb WTF? System profiler reports the the lower slot is empty. Simple right? Re-seating the ram, swapping ram sticks, no joy. The slot is dead. So now I'm stuck with 512mb of RAM which is ridiculous.

Now I need to put my money where my mouth is. $200 for a 1gb stick as a temporary solution on a machine that may or may not have a failing motherboard, or bite the bullet and get the 17" MBP that I've been drooling over.

[workerbee]

Originally Posted by mduell

You to paypal me $2000 for the MBP and $1400 for the memory... whatcha waiting for?

I can't seem to find my PayPal account infos anywhere... sorry!

[Yakov]

There's a good pickup line for yall
"I can't find my PayPal account information; can I borrow yours?"

[workerbee]

Originally Posted by Yakov

There's a good pickup line for yall
"I can't find my PayPal account information; can I borrow yours?"

Noted, thanks!

[rhashem]

Originally Posted by Tuoder

Note the bold.

Yes, it is more complicated than that, but your statement was misleading. All versions of OS X today are fundementally 32-bit OSs. They support execution of 64-bit programs via a 64-bit libc and special features of the PowerPC, but 95% of the code is compiled with 32-bit pointers.

Now, the distinction doesn't matter a whole lot on PowerPC --- you get some inefficiencies having a 32-bit kernel deal with a 64-bit application, and there are limitations in what 64-bit apps can do since most OS X libraries are 32-bit, but at least things are usable. On x86, there is no running 64-bit apps on a 32-bit kernel. So in order to allow any x86-64 apps to execute, Apple will have to ship a fully 64-bit OS X. Now there is the interesting part. You have to ask yourself why OS X is still 32-bit even though the G5 has been out for three years now (and Apple knew about it for substantially longer). It might be the case that large parts of OS X are just not 64-bit clean. In that case, the 32-bit to 64-bit transition could take much longer than people expect, and be as painful as it was on Windows.

[phoenix78]

i wouldnt worry about the 64bit issue at all... you wont even feel it when you are working. 32 bit will still be supported for a long time to come. 4Gb ram is enough isnt it??? how much does a consumer really need to run office or safari? lol. Thats plenty even for a graphics person. If you need a hugely powerful computer then you wouldnt be buying a laptop anyways. 2x2Gb is mighty expensive and not too many people i know would care to pull that kind of money out for a laptop.

The most reasonable consideration when buying a pc is wether it will do the work you want and for how long. ANY MBP you buy today will do what you want for a few years at least. it wont slow down over time... its just a perception thing because others have become faster. also the urge to update is the 'grass is always greener on the other side' syndrome. Just because someone has a 1ExaHz pc with 10TerraBytes of ram and trillion pixel screen with true life 3d holographics capabilities, it doesnt mean that they can do more work and be better than you with your little core duo. I know people who are millionares who have simple 1.6GHz centrino laptops but they do all their work on it and the work they do is better than anyone esle...

Its just a machine... use it to do your work.

if you wantto play games then get a playstation or Xbox. much better than a whiny overheated laptop.

robM

[jtice]

Originally Posted by b11051973

I would remove the word "want" from that. If I bought a new computer everytime I wanted one, I'd be getting one every 6 months. I'm waiting for certain technologies because I can. The slowness of my current PB isn't driving so nuts to upgrade just yet. I want to upgrade really bad. I went to the Apple Store one day after the MBP was first released. If they had the 15" with the 2.16GHz in stock, I think I would have left with one. I'm now glad I waited.

It's pretty hard to justify need based on performance when the system bottleneck always sits in the chair. It always comes down to the magnitude of want, interval since the itch was last scratched, and mathmatical creativity applied to needs accessment. Whether or not there happens to be a major job in the pipeline that will foster said creativity and execute 5X faster with a new 'puter figures in heavily as well. I bought a G5 dual last summr, after the Intel move was announced, thinking it would bridge the gap––probably good timing. Also got a nice graphics monitor shortly thereafter. So I'm thinking that a Macbook Pro just might replace an aging iBook 933 and the G5 with one sweet stroke. But I really don't see much point until Adobe releases a universal CS version. So why not hold out and get a major revision MBP, Merom processor, 10.5 and universal CS all at once. IOW, that big job is not in sight at the moment.

[jamil5454]

I think the general rule to go by is: will buying this computer make your life easier?

[jtice]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

I think the general rule to go by is: will buying this computer make your life easier?

I like it! A simple, easy question by which to make spending decisions. The answer is––of course it would! Now, if I had just figured this out before I wrote that big fat check on April 15th.

[shabbasuraj]

Merom is gonna be bad a$$..

[houstonmacbro]

Originally Posted by phoenix78

i wouldnt worry about the 64bit issue at all... you wont even feel it when you are working. 32 bit will still be supported for a long time to come. 4Gb ram is enough isnt it??? how much does a consumer really need to run office or safari? lol. Thats plenty even for a graphics person. If you need a hugely powerful computer then you wouldnt be buying a laptop anyways. 2x2Gb is mighty expensive and not too many people i know would care to pull that kind of money out for a laptop.

The most reasonable consideration when buying a pc is wether it will do the work you want and for how long. ANY MBP you buy today will do what you want for a few years at least. it wont slow down over time... its just a perception thing because others have become faster. also the urge to update is the 'grass is always greener on the other side' syndrome. Just because someone has a 1ExaHz pc with 10TerraBytes of ram and trillion pixel screen with true life 3d holographics capabilities, it doesnt mean that they can do more work and be better than you with your little core duo. I know people who are millionares who have simple 1.6GHz centrino laptops but they do all their work on it and the work they do is better than anyone esle...

Its just a machine... use it to do your work.

if you wantto play games then get a playstation or Xbox. much better than a whiny overheated laptop.

robM

amen!

[houstonmacbro]

Originally Posted by Toyin

Karma is a

Yesterday I noticed my Powerbook was really sluggish. The new 7200rpm hard drive was constantly spinning. I check my ram and it reads 512mb WTF? System profiler reports the the lower slot is empty. Simple right? Re-seating the ram, swapping ram sticks, no joy. The slot is dead. So now I'm stuck with 512mb of RAM which is ridiculous.

Now I need to put my money where my mouth is. $200 for a 1gb stick as a temporary solution on a machine that may or may not have a failing motherboard, or bite the bullet and get the 17" MBP that I've been drooling over.

yeah, i am kinda in the same boat. i looked at the macbooks, the refurbished mbps (online) and cannot decide. i have a powerbook with a blown memory slot and seems like firewire port has failed too ... not really too keen on fixing it when i really would rather have a merom mbp or macbook. i guess i will wait until the thing actually dies on me or until i can unload it on ebay.

offers anyone?

[Toyin]

I'm still plodding along on my 1.5ghz Powerbook. I used a 1gb stick for the functioning memory slot. Since then my wife has upgraded to a MacBook 2ghz with 1gb of RAM. Her laptop smokes mine in every aspect. I'm most amazed with Parallels and how fast her machine can run both operating systems well. Her MacBook using parallels is faster then any windows machine I've used (fastest being a 3ghz P4).

I'm still waiting for the Merom MBPs and I wouldn't mind 4gb of RAM since I'll be running 2 operating systems at the same time.

[houstonmacbro]

Originally Posted by Toyin

I'm still plodding along on my 1.5ghz Powerbook. I used a 1gb stick for the functioning memory slot. Since then my wife has upgraded to a MacBook 2ghz with 1gb of RAM. Her laptop smokes mine in every aspect. I'm most amazed with Parallels and how fast her machine can run both operating systems well. Her MacBook using parallels is faster then any windows machine I've used (fastest being a 3ghz P4).

I'm still waiting for the Merom MBPs and I wouldn't mind 4gb of RAM since I'll be running 2 operating systems at the same time.

yeah, i am REALLY considering a mb over a mbp this time. but i am waiting on merom and then the inevitable reviews before i make the plunge.

[Kenstee]

No need to wait. Looks like Merom won't get you very much more.

Macworld: First Look: PC World tests: Mobile Core 2 Duo okay, not great