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So, is Amazon screwing its warehouse workers?
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The Final Dakar
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Oct 9, 2014, 11:10 AM
 
I suppose this answer could be split between legally and ethically/whatever-you-will.
Justices Will Decide Whether Workers Must Endure Unpaid Inconvenience : The Two-Way : NPR

Integrity Staffing Solutions Inc. is a temp agency that hires workers for many of Amazon's warehouses. The employees fill customer orders and package them to ship. But after the workers clock out, they have to go through anti-theft screening — a process that they say took an average of 25 minutes because the company set up just two screening checkpoints for 1,000 workers at the shift change in Nevada warehouses. The workers sued, contending that under federal law they should be paid for the time spent in the long screening process.
He told the justices that under federal law, workers are not paid for clocking out or waiting to clock out, and therefore they should not be paid for the screening process afterwards.

Justice Elena Kagan interrupted with a question: Suppose you have an employer with an "extensive process for closing out cash registers" to protect against theft. Without the theft concern, you could close out the register much more quickly. The same would be true for bank tellers or casino employees: Instead of a couple of minutes, there would be a 20 minute anti-theft process. So, she asked, what's the difference "between that case and going through security at Amazon?"

Clement seemed to suggest that in those cases, the employees would not be paid for their time either .

"Couldn't you say," Justice Antonin Scalia suggested, that "closing down the cash register is part of the job," while "getting yourself inspected as you leave" is not?

Clement readily agreed to the suggestion, but Kagan did not. "That would seem to make it depend on a complete fortuity," she warned. After all, you could have the cashier "take her tray" to the manager "on the way out the door." And you would end up with one answer at the cashier's station and a different one at the manager's station.

"Is it irrelevant," Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg interjected, that because there are not enough screeners, "what could be a five-minute process turns out to be 25 minutes?"

Clement replied that it is irrelevant, though he pointed out that some people at the front of the line would be screened in far less than 25 minutes.

Justice Anthony Kennedy focused the questioning back on the company. Isn't it "for the benefit of the employer" to hire fewer checkers, he asked, despite the fact that it causes long waiting periods for the workers?

Clement conceded the point, but maintained that the time spent waiting in line still wasn't compensable. To qualify for compensation, he argued, the screening would have to be "indispensable" to the job — and Amazon could "perfectly well run a warehouse" without security screenings.
Chief Justice Roberts observed that that "the employer doesn't hire someone ... to go through security screening." It seems to me, he said, that "you're just saying [that] anything that is required for the benefit of employer" is an activity that has to be compensated.

"A person is hired to do what they are told to do. That's your job," Thierman responded. And the employer has to pay for it, if it takes more than a trivial amount of time.

Justice Stephen Breyer said that in a case like this, he normally would look to the Department of Labor, "and they say you lose."

Thierman replied that the Labor Department's interpretation of the law in this case is inconsistent with its other rules that "define work as 'when you're under the control of and doing what the employer tells you to do.' "

Breyer followed up, asking for examples of other activities, similar to security screening, that are compensated. Thierman noted that workers are compensated for time spent in routine drug testing, and truck drivers are paid for time spent refueling their trucks at the end of their shifts.

Chief Justice Roberts postulated that all of these issues likely would be addressed during the collective bargaining process, but Thierman noted that these are nonunion workers. Moreover, he said that most of these cases do not involve union workers.
L-O-L

---

It's an interesting case because I'm not sure the legal mechanics are there, but its undeniable that the screening isn't optional and further that it's unnecessarily long due to there not being enough screeners. Honestly, if amazon was smart, they might off-set the shift into two shift 15 minutes apart to thin the line out by half.

I thought the cashier example had merit. I did that at a grocery store in high school and they used to pull you off your register 15 minutes before your shift ended so you had time to cash out properly before your shift ended. And if you ran into problems with numbers not matching and it ended up taking an extra 15 minutes, guess what, that was paid.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 03:13 PM
 
when you're under the control of and doing what the employer tells you to do
they have to go through anti-theft screening
Seems clear to me. They should be paid.
     
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Oct 9, 2014, 04:32 PM
 
Yes - they should be paid. It's not an optional process and is part of the job.
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Oct 9, 2014, 05:49 PM
 
They should stay on the clock until they're cleared to leave. But here's my issue with this: I think it's the temp agency that's really the problem, not Amazon, and making it sound like it's Amazon that is not paying them is disingenuous. Amazon should have a much better process for clearing any worker to leave the building, BUT it's the temp agency that pays them, NOT Amazon.

So the temp agency should be paying the folks that work for them, while Amazon should be more organized in inspecting people who have done work for them. For what it's worth, at least they aren't working for a South African diamond mine, where people get strip searched and/or x-rayed before they can leave. (But the diamond mines don't let people clock out until after they're cleared to leave...)

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Oct 9, 2014, 11:01 PM
 
When I worked for Integrity at the Amazon DC in Fernley, I don't think I got paid during screening. Though, it was only a couple minutes, and we had a separate line than the Amazon employees.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 22, 2014, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
But here's my issue with this: I think it's the temp agency that's really the problem, not Amazon, and making it sound like it's Amazon that is not paying them is disingenuous.
It's a good point. Counter-point: Amazon created this situation because they hire temps instead of full-time workers.
     
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Oct 23, 2014, 07:10 AM
 
Amazon uses temps to adapt to a variable workload. That's not a "problem" if they do this intelligently. They don't just use temps as seasonal workers, but it looks like they sort of "try before buy" workforce sizes (often in specific locales) as well. Having been a temp (in a different industry), having ANY sort of opportunity to work within my availability was a great thing.

Finally, a temp generally costs more per hour,, not less, than a permanent employee. Using temp workers is not a method to avoid paying regular employees, it's a method of staffing where and when one needs staffing, and employers pay a premium for that flexibility.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 23, 2014, 08:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Finally, a temp generally costs more per hour,, not less, than a permanent employee.
I don't believe that's the case when you include benefits.
     
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Oct 23, 2014, 08:51 AM
 
They should move the punch-out clocks to the other side of the screening line.
Maybe then the the 2 screeners might pick up the pace?

Perhaps a work slowdown is in order?
     
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Oct 23, 2014, 10:41 AM
 
^this. If it's the temp agency that is being slow, and the temp agency that pays the workers for their time, I guess they'd speed up/hire another screener to save themselves money.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:35 AM
 
If they truly think they're getting a bad deal they have a right to quit their job. No ones forcing them to wait at check points / work for amazon. If I were amazon or the staffing agency, I'd pay them for the 20 minutes they wait, then just cut their overall hourly pay to compensate. That way it's a wash. Poor poor amazon, just trying to deliver low cost products to everybody and this is what they get.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 07:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't believe that's the case when you include benefits.
In many cases, you're right. But day-to-day staffing isn't usually managed based on extended costs, but rather "current budget period" costs. Corporate usually covers benefits costs while lower level managers are responsible for managing day-to-day staffing costs, and corporate usually sets guidelines for use of contract and temp workers. On a daily basis, temps cost more - often a lot more. Further, vetting a temp agency is about as expensive as vetting multiple new employees, so on a shorter-term basis, temps are more expensive, while on an extended basis they aren't.. But again, it's rare to see temps used for long term staffing.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 24, 2014, 08:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
If they truly think they're getting a bad deal they have a right to quit their job. No ones forcing them to wait at check points / work for amazon.
In Libertopia, maybe. In the real world, there's a definite shortage of jobs and bills to be paid.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
But again, it's rare to see temps used for long term staffing.
I don't recall the specifics for this enterprise, but you have point, as I believe these jobs have high turnover. They don't work you to death, but they do work you to exhaustion.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 11:19 AM
 
"There's a definite shortage of jobs people like and bills to be paid", is more accurate. Our office building couldn't fill a janitor/light handyman position, even starting at $14.00 /hr (higher for more experience), so we went with a service.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 24, 2014, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
"There's a definite shortage of jobs people like and bills to be paid", is more accurate.
It's not accurate. No one likes being an amazon picker, but you still see them taking the position.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Our office building couldn't fill a janitor/light handyman position, even starting at $14.00 /hr (higher for more experience)
Am I supposed to feel something negative about this?
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 11:30 AM
 
I have no idea, do you? It was a good paying, easy job that didn't even require a HS diploma, yet we only received 4 or 5 resumes and none were suitable.

Anyway, what's so bad about being a picker? You grab a product off a shelf and put it in a shipping box? Right after HS I worked repack lines for Philips and spent 3 months loading a 10lb CD player box into a larger box, my pace was 8 /min. Wasn't bad at all.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 24, 2014, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It was a good paying, easy job that didn't even require a HS diploma, yet we only received 4 or 5 resumes and none were suitable.
Easy is in the eye of the beholder. Cleaning isn't desirable job for most.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Anyway, what's so bad about being a picker? You grab a product off a shelf and put it in a shipping box?
It basically boils down to running around with your head cut-off. Except, for safety reasons, you're not allowed to run.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Right after HS I worked repack lines for Philips and spent 3 months loading a 10lb CD player box into a larger box, my pace was 8 /min. Wasn't bad at all.
That's a cake-walk compared to picker work.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 11:42 AM
 
I've read stories of the behind the scenes of picker work. It sounds like a madhouse. 8/min would be low.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Easy is in the eye of the beholder. Cleaning isn't desirable job for most.
That's what I was saying, it was a good job, with benefits, but no one wanted it.

It basically boils down to running around with your head cut-off. Except, for safety reasons, you're not allowed to run.

That's a cake-walk compared to picker work.
Doesn't sound like it.
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Oct 24, 2014, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's what I was saying, it was a good job, with benefits, but no one wanted it.
Being a janitor is not a good job. That's the point.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Doesn't sound like it.
eh?
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Being a janitor is not a good job. That's the point.
I don't believe that assessment can be made without knowing the particular job and environment. Most of the time would be spent reading and making sure there's plenty of paper towels and TP in the restrooms.

eh?
huh?
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Oct 24, 2014, 01:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I don't believe that assessment can be made without knowing the particular job and environment. Most of the time would be spent reading and making sure there's plenty of paper towels and TP in the restrooms.
No one like cleaning their own bathrooms, let alone places where strangers have been (and likely treat worse).

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
huh?
"Doesn't sound like it" what doesn't sound like it?
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
I've never had an issue with it, put on rubber gloves, apply bowl cleaner, scrub, flush, done. That sounds a little "prima donna-ish" to me, dental hygienists and nurses (for example) have it far worse.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 24, 2014, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I've never had an issue with it, put on rubber gloves, apply bowl cleaner, scrub, flush, done. That sounds a little "prima donna-ish" to me, dental hygienists and nurses (for example) have it far worse.
Do you seriously want to argue that being a janitor isn't see as one of the least desirable jobs by Americans?

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
"Doesn't sound like it" what doesn't sound like it?
?
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 01:55 PM
 
My first full time job after high school was working for my best friends grandmother as a janitor. Try mopping down 16 flights of steps when the party last night had guys peeing down them (Military scum), cleaning out apartments after the tenants left after a fight with the landlords. How about spending 2 days buffing out wooden floor stains, or cleaning kitchens and bathrooms in apartments. It IS character building, and you never see janitors/cleaners the same. Many people are just snots.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Do you seriously want to argue that being a janitor isn't see as one of the least desirable jobs by Americans?
I think it highlights one of the main issues with people in the job market today, they feel they're too good to do such things. I've cleaned the bathroom at the shop, doesn't bother me. Back when I was younger man I would have jumped at a janitorial job that paid (comparatively) that much and offered benefits. My wife and I discussed it a while back, and we're going to require that our daughter keep her own bathroom clean (and she's going to work a summer job like my nephew), to instill some humility.

"Doesn't sound like it" what doesn't sound like it?
Doesn't sound worse than the work I did at Philips, it was a hell of a lot of repetition. The worst part was, if the person just up the line didn't place their item in the box perfectly (which was common), mine wouldn't fit. So I had to reorient their box and then squeeze mine in, which slowed down everything and put me behind, making me scramble to catch up. God forbid the line ever had to stop because a person was behind, that was the most sure way to get the foreman all up your ass. It still, by far, wasn't the worst job I ever had.
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I think it highlights one of the main issues with people in the job market today, they feel they're too good to do such things
So we've gone from it's a good job, to it's not hard, to it's people's fault for being too high and mighty. Man, life is tough for those offices trying to hire janitors.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Doesn't sound worse than the work I did at Philips
You obviously didn't look into it. Do so.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
My first full time job after high school was working for my best friends grandmother as a janitor. Try mopping down 16 flights of steps when the party last night had guys peeing down them (Military scum), cleaning out apartments after the tenants left after a fight with the landlords. How about spending 2 days buffing out wooden floor stains, or cleaning kitchens and bathrooms in apartments. It IS character building, and you never see janitors/cleaners the same. Many people are just snots.
That's a very different environment, think more like tidy offices and cubicles and a few executive-type washrooms (no "public" restrooms).
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:15 PM
 
Badkosh's anecdote sure makes the job sound hard, and unpleasant. I hope his friend's grandma paid well at least?

What was wrong with the 5 people whose resume you rejected?
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
What was wrong with the 5 people whose resume you rejected?
I'm curious too. Criminal history of lifting tissue rolls, superglue tricks around halloween, likes to sing while working?

Got it. History of installing tissue to roll the wrong way.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So we've gone from it's a good job, to it's not hard, to it's people's fault for being too high and mighty. Man, life is tough for those offices trying to hire janitors.
Nope, it was/is a good job that's not hard at all, but the majority of people these days are "too good" for it. In recent generations we've successfully created a whole new middle-class gentry with a hyper-inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement, then right after turning their noses up at that type of work, they like to complain when immigrants (illegal or otherwise) take those jobs. It's unfortunate no Latinos applied for that janitor position, but (most ironically) none bothered because they probably felt it was too "upscale" for them and some white person would snap it up.

You obviously didn't look into it. Do so.
I did, it isn't.
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Oct 24, 2014, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Badkosh's anecdote sure makes the job sound hard, and unpleasant. I hope his friend's grandma paid well at least?

What was wrong with the 5 people whose resume you rejected?
Improperly filled resumes (very poor spelling and/or omitted information) and failed background checks (lied about criminal records and past employment). I'm all for giving someone a second chance, but don't lie about 12 months in jail for GTA.
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Oct 24, 2014, 03:01 PM
 
Ok, that makes sense. Even the spelling part - you have to read the instructions on strong chemicals.

regarding the tissue rolls: they're supposed to feed over the top.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Nope, it was/is a good job that's not hard at all, but the majority of people these days are "too good" for it. In recent generations we've successfully created a whole new middle-class gentry with a hyper-inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement, then right after turning their noses up at that type of work, they like to complain when immigrants (illegal or otherwise) take those jobs. It's unfortunate no Latinos applied for that janitor position, but (most ironically) none bothered because they probably felt it was too "upscale" for them and some white person would snap it up.



I did, it isn't.
I think we're done here.
     
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Oct 24, 2014, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Badkosh's anecdote sure makes the job sound hard, and unpleasant. I hope his friend's grandma paid well at least?
NOPE.. But it was an eye opener. I decided I needed to do something better, enrolled in the local community college and got an AA in data processing with a minor in accounting. That was enough in the 1970's to get a good job, and then my employers paid for the industrial classes in other languages etc., since most colleges were either teaching 'computer science' or just basic overview type computer classes. I paid for the education myself by spinning records as a DJ, so their is pride in accomplishment.
     
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Oct 25, 2014, 08:26 AM
 
That apartment cleaning job reminds me of my calculus professor's story about his first year at college. Party, party, party, and barely pass with Ds...so his dad got him a job for the summer. Harvesting cotton by hand is back-breaking, hot, filthy work, but my professor went on to stay on the dean's list for the rest of his college years. Hot, unpleasant, tedious and nasty work tends to help people motivate themselves to do something different; I spent a lot of time working to get through school so I would never have to spend a day in a 110º, barely ventilated garage space putting radios and phones into rich craphead's cars and trucks...

Unfortunately for most civilians, it's little known that a single call to a GI's commander can get him in a world of trouble for just being rude to people, so a party full of GIs being gross and disgusting sounds to me like a whole bunch of "volunteers" for what I call the "cigarette butt detail': 30 days worth of picking up other people's detritus after one's normal day of work sort of gets people's attention. BadKosh, I'm really sorry you had to deal with that specifically.

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Oct 25, 2014, 10:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I think we're done here.
don't forget your bat and glove.
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Oct 27, 2014, 11:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
don't forget your bat and glove.
I think I left them with your class.

Edit: Anyway, I just noticed this was a thread derail and at no time was the OP actually addressed. So, like I said, I think we're done here.
     
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Dec 9, 2014, 12:22 PM
 
The supreme court says no.
Supreme Court rules no worker pay for security screening | Reuters

A 9-0 ruling means either I'm ass backwards or there's some legal minutia I'm not understanding.
Justice Clarence Thomas wrote on behalf of the court in the important employment law case that the screening process is not a "principal activity" of the workers' jobs under a law called the Fair Labor Standards Act and therefore is not subject to compensation.

For workers to be paid, the activity in question must be “an intrinsic element” of the job and “one with which the employee cannot dispense if he is to perform his principal activities,” Thomas wrote.
I'm leaning towards the latter, as how something can be required by your employer but not considered a principal activity strikes me as a thoroughly legal sort of parsing.

I'll be interested to see if anyone in Congress jumps aboard the train to put forth some legislation to rectify this. I won't be holding my breath.
     
   
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