[Cody Dawg]

Then you disagree with Bush's law, which permits, in the absence of a written directive from the patient, for family (first spouses, then adult children, then parents) to make a choice to remove artificial nutrition and hydration.]

No, I do not.

However, I do think this: When there is a conflict between two first relatives then the patient should be kept alive as the patient should be given the benefit of the doubt and kept alive.

I had to make it perfectly clear to my son last night that even if I'm not here, I'm still around - death is not the end in our family and it should not be feared.

I honestly think that death is a transition to another stage. I'm not afraid of it. I am a good person and I don't think something bad is waiting for me on the other side.

Heck, part of me believes that as soon as we die we are a baby waking up to life somewhere else with another chance to dance the dance.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
This has more to do with distrust of Michael Schiavo than anything else. I don't know if Terri actually said she would not want to be kept alive this way - I think he's lied before and may be lying now. He is not trustworthy.

That's my opinion.

This might be a good opportunity to revisit some of the documents from this long, long case.
The 11th District Court of Appeals decision, 2001:

Theresa has been blessed with loving parents and a loving husband. Many patients in this condition would have been abandoned by friends and family within the first year. Michael has continued to care for her and to visit her all these years. He has never divorced her. He has become a professional respiratory therapist and works in a nearby hospital. As a guardian, he has always attempted to provide optimum treatment for his wife. He has been a diligent watch guard of Theresa's care, never hesitating to annoy the nursing staff in order to assure that she receives the proper treatment.

Since the resolution of the malpractice lawsuit, both Michael and the Schindlers have become suspicious that the other party is assessing Theresa's wishes based upon their own monetary self-interest. The trial court discounted this concern, and we see no evidence in this record that either Michael or the Schindlers seek monetary gain from their actions. Michael and the Schindlers simply cannot agree on what decision Theresa would make today if she were able to assess her own condition and make her own decision.

Jay Wolfson, the guardian ad litem appointed by Jeb Bush:

One thing Wolfson never doubted was that for all their intense, mutual antagonism, both Michael Schiavo and Terri's parents love and adore her.

She was cared for incredibly well, Wolfson said. Her hair was always combed, and after 15 years of being incapacitated, she never developed a bedsore. In fact, Wolfson said until about seven years ago, Michael Schiavo had Terry's makeup and hair done regularly, and her clothes changed every day - to the point that hospice staff protested that he was being overly demanding about her care.

[Mithras]

Incidentally, a new poll:

WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TO TERRI SCHIAVO NOW?
Re-insert tube: 27%
Do not re-insert: 66%

SHOULD CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT BE INVOLVED IN SCHIAVO MATTER?
Yes: 13%
No: 82%

WHY DO YOU THINK CONGRESS GOT INVOLVED?
They care about Terri Schiavo: 13%
Trying to advance political agenda: 74%

[Mithras]

Alright, my last post of the day on Schiavo:
This is snark but hilarious:

The first one is real; the rest are projections into a possible future...

Orlando Sentinel: Gov. Bush: DCF may intervene (March 23, 2005)

Gov. Jeb Bush said today his social services agency may step in to have her feeding tube reinstated. In an extraordinary move, Bush said the Department of Children and Families has filed a legal motion alleging "30 detailed allegations of abuse, neglect or exploitation" that have occurred during Schiavo's stay at a Pinellas Park hospice.

Miami Herald: Bush Requests Condemnation Hearing on Schiavo (March 24, 2005)

His legal options quickly running out, Florida Governor Jeb Bush today asked a state court to classify Terri Schiavo as "abandoned property," allowing the state to seize control of the brain-damaged woman under the law of eminent domain. Lawyers called the maneuver "unusual."

Associated Press: Bush Wants Schiavo Taken to Rescue Shelter (March 25, 2005)

Rebuffed in his previous attempts to gain control of Terri Schiavo, Governor Bush today asked the Florida Supreme Court to define the brain-damaged patient as a "dangerous animal," giving Pinellas County animal control officers the right to take her into protective custody. Legal analysts called the move "a cheap political stunt."

Washington Post: Fla. Gov Ask Supremes for Control of Schiavo (March 26, 2005)

In a last-ditch bid to save Terri Schiavo, lawyers for Governor Jeb Bush today asked the U.S. Supreme Court to declare the brain-damaged woman a "regulated public utility," saying this would authorize the Florida Power Commission to order the restoration of vital services, such as her feeding tube. Constitutional scholars called the petition "a outrageous abuse of the American legal system."

There's more.

[Cody Dawg]

That tells me that everyone wants to see her live - no matter how.

Who cares HOW as long as she lives?

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
This has more to do with distrust of Michael Schiavo than anything else. .

Now I understand.


All your reasoning has gone out the window. I can see why you don't seem to actually care about Terry Schiavo suffering in her current state. It's all about Michael Schiavo paying for his crimes.

My mom and dad are divorced. Domestic problems are never what they seem in my experience. We're jumping on MS for being a bad husband but what if Terry gangbanged the entire town while smoking crack and importing assault rifles? We'll never know and that's why I am always skeptical about domestic hearsay.

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

For once I agree with Zim. I'm done with this thread.

[Cody Dawg]

I don't know about the rest of what you have to say ( ) but this is categorically wrong:

All your reasoning has gone out the window. I can see why you don't seem to actually care about Terry Schiavo suffering in her current state. It's all about Michael Schiavo paying for his crimes.

I DO care that she is dying from hunger and thirst (DUH - see the title of the thread?)

[dav]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Who cares HOW as long as she lives?

apparently terri did

[Cody Dawg]

My comment, BTW, was made in response to the weird and various ways that the state, and Jeb Bush, are trying to preserve her life.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Moderator:
...if the family can't PAY!

Yeah..the idealogues are suspiciously silent on this. Pathetic

And you are suspiciously illiterate. Idiotic.

[waxcrash]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
This has more to do with distrust of Michael Schiavo than anything else. I don't know if Terri actually said she would not want to be kept alive this way - I think he's lied before and may be lying now. He is not trustworthy.

Admit it Cody Dawg, the real reason you don't like Michael Schiavo is because he has a mustache.

[bstone]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
Admit it Cody Dawg, the real reason you don't like Michael Schiavo is because he has a mustache.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
That tells me that everyone wants to see her live - no matter how.

Who cares HOW as long as she lives?

Who? Cody, are you not paying attention? Terry Schiavo does (or rather, did). Her loving, caring, compassionate husband is working diligently to make sure that her intrusive, abusive, heartless and selfish parents cannot keep her "alive" by artificial means, in a manner in which she clearly stated she would never, ever want to be in.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by bstone:
Who? Cody, are you not paying attention? Terry Schiavo does (or rather, did). Her loving, caring, compassionate husband is working diligently to make sure that her intrusive, abusive, heartless and selfish parents cannot keep her "alive" by artificial means, in a manner in which she clearly stated she would never, ever want to be in.

Sorry, but I don't equate "loving, caring, compassionate" with a person who shacks up with someone else while his wife is in the hospital.

Damn, someone just needs to smother her with a pillow or something, starving her to death is just damned barbaric, no matter how you slice it.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Cody Dawg,

Thanks for the discussion! You have taught me many things about the insight into a person's mind. Nothing concerning the case at all, but I learned a lot. Thanks!

APU

[saddino]

In a last-ditch bid to save Terri Schiavo, lawyers for Governor Jeb Bush today asked God to declare the brain-damaged woman a "political football," saying this would allow he and all other Republicans running for President in 2008 to service the religious right. Theological scholars called the petition "a blasphemous call for political gain" except for Christian scholors who called the petition "God's will" before reaffixing red masking tape to their mouths.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
You don't know him, do you? The only reason you see conflict is because you're projecting motivations on him.

Only based on things he himself has said. As for the rest, this is what the law does. That's how the legal definition works.

Wrong. The evidence was reviewed by an independent judge and upheld numerous times now. In both State and Federal courts. Are you going to question their motives?

No, only their alleged perfection. Things like this get through state and federal courts all the time; if they didn't, there would be no need for an appeals process. I believe that such a thing has happened here.

Not as easy to demonize a whole judicial system, is it?

No, but apparently it's really easy to assume its perfection.

BTW, it isn't only her husbands assertion she wouldn't want to be kept in this condition, there are others who assert this is Terri's wish as well.

All of whom are compromised. There are others who assert the opposite, and they are also compromised. My point is not simply to brand the husband as unqualified to make this decision, but everyone involved in this case as unqualified, because for one reason or another every last one of them is. That is the problem; there is no one left.

Nobody's trying to make a him a saint.

You certainly paint him as such, denying any possibility of imperfection.

He's just a man going through probably the hardest decisions he'll ever have to make.

Oh, come on; even he admits that it's not that simple.

If you have sympathy for Terri, as you obviously do, I don't see how you can't have some empathy for him as well.

Empathy and faith are two different things. I would feel empathy for him, if the evidence I've seen of his past behavior wouldn't point so strongly to the idea that it's not warranted. Regardless of whether or not he's respecting his wife's wishes, he has been a complete jerk throughout the whole process, and that really rubs me the wrong way.

If you were in his shoes, do you honestly think you'd make every decision perfectly?

If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want the law to trust me either. Believe me, I've given that matter a lot of thought. It's unlikely that I'll ever be in exactly this same situation, but this is why I keep pestering my wife to get a living will drawn up for herself, just in case that were to occur.

Wouldn't there be some decisions, over such a long period of time, that would appear to be callous or calculating to a barely informed media and public? Should he be blamed for not being more PR conscious?

If it were simply a matter of PR-consciousness, that would be one thing. However, his actions point to someone who feels grudging respect for his wife's actions at best. Certainly not love.

No matter how much you try to make it so, this case isn't about Michael Schiavo.

Not directly, no. It's not. He's just one of many people in this case, but it is his testimony on which most of his supporters focus.

It's about Terri Schiavo and fulfilling her wishes.

Wishes which cannot be accurately determined.

If you are ideologically against pulling life-support from PVS patients or against euthanasia in general, then just say so. Be honest about it.

I am only ideologically against pulling life-support from PVS patients who haven't expressed a wish for the plug to be pulled, or patients whose wishes are uncertain. If they've expressed a wish, and that wish can be verified, then so be it. My entire problem with this case is that no one on either side is trustworthy enough to verify her wishes one way or the other.

As for euthanasia in general, I would only support it under extremely strict safeguards to ensure that it could only happen under the person's direct wishes. That is not a decision that I would even allow someone with power of attorney to make for someone else. The risks of abuse are simply too great.

[budster101]

I've been away from this thread too long it seems, but did anyone notice that there was a Doctor from the Mayo Clinic who is prepared to say Terri is NOT PVS? In that case, she can be quite aware of what is going on around her, but cannot communicate.

Anyone wish to dispute THIS doctor's credentials?
I'll find his name, but wanted to put this up for discussion.

[Cody Dawg]

Looks like the Supreme Court has denied the Schindler's last-ditch effort and appeal. 10:30 AM.

Now I cannot imagine what will happen. Judge Greer will most certainly not reverse.

Guess the ball is...bouncing in the middle - there is no one to pass it to.

Protective custody next?

Hmm...

[budster101]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Looks like the Supreme Court has denied the Schindler's last-ditch effort and appeal.

Now I cannot imagine what will happen.

Hmm...

The Governer will step in and the state will take custody of her. This will entail several officers going against the judges admonishment that no law enforcement personal will be allowed to take her into custody for the state...

I hope they can find a few who will go against this a-hole and do the right thing.

.

Any comments on the May Clinit Doctor stating that Terri was misdiagnosed?

Some more information:

"Dr. Keith Andrews, writing in the British Medical Journal in 1996, found
in a study that out of 40 patients diagnosed as being in a persistent
vegetative state, 17 were misdiagnosed and in fact were aware and
responsive. That's a pretty high proportion of mistakes! If someone were
fishing with a net and snaring 17 dolphins for every 23 tunas, how long do
you think he'd be permitted to fish in that location?"


Source

http://www.terrisfight.org/schiavo_c...eed_to_pro.htm

[ironknee]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
snip

You know, my family sat here last night and talked about this. My son said that he would want me to stay alive. My husband said that he would want to honor my wishes and take me off of life support, whatever that would be.

Right here, in my living room, my son said that he thought that I might be able to get better and he would not want to pull the plug - even though I had just stated I'd want to be able to go. He and my husband started arguing about it!

snip

intresting...a mature adult would want to honor your wishes....a boy would want you to live thinking (hoping) you could get better...

perfect analogy of this argument...

[saddino]

Originally posted by budster101:
Anyone wish to dispute THIS doctor's credentials?

Sure, a doctor who publically wrties articles of this kind of religious cheerleading seems to have a conflict of interest in a case where the religious right is seeking to outflank the Constitution.

[Cody Dawg]

A nurse just came out and said that her nose is starting to bleed and her lips are terribly cracked and full of deep ruts and she can no longer move her mouth.

Also, Michael Schiavo has forbidden her parents to see her this morning.

He's an asshole, plain and simple.

I hope Jeb Bush does something. This is crazy.

[Cody Dawg]

I feel a little vindicated: Terri Schaivo's brother just said that "seeing his sister reminds him of concentration camps in Germany because she looks so bad." That's for all of the people that jumped on me when I raised that analogy yesterday.

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Also, Michael Schiavo has forbidden her parents to see her this morning.

He's an asshole, plain and simple.

Uh-huh. "forbidden" - perhaps he doesn't want them to see the body in this state. Unless you are there posting from the hospital, you are subject to the bias of the press.

I hope Jeb Bush does something. This is crazy.

What's crazy is that you can't grasp the concept that her brain has turned to goo several years ago. She's gone. She's been gone for a long time. It's sad, yes. But her chances of getting better are long gone. Look at the CT scan, for goodness sake! There's no brain matter left to function!

This is not because of her husband, who could at least recognize she was gone a long time ago and has made an attempt to move on with his own life. All he wants now is closure.

Why can't you understand this? You are arguing to keep an empty body functioning. Her body is as much of a person as one of those Aibo robot dogs. It can respond to stimuli, but that doesn't mean it's alive.

I don't know how you can be so cruel.

[Cody Dawg]

Cruel? Me?



You must mean cruel like Michael Schaivo who denied an MRI two weeks ago - after Judge Greer asked him if it was acceptable when the question was raised by the Schindler's attorney.

Or, you must mean cruel like Michael Schaivo who won't let her parents or siblings see her.

Yeah, I know the meaning of the word "cruel." You bet.

Remember, you people who say that we are being "cruel" by prolonging her life are the same ones saying that she cannot feel anything and is unaware - so where is the cruelty that you speak of?

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I feel a little vindicated: Terri Schaivo's brother just said that "seeing his sister reminds him of concentration camps in Germany because she looks so bad." That's for all of the people that jumped on me when I raised that analogy yesterday.

bwahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaa
.
.
.
.
.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
A nurse just came out and said that her nose is starting to bleed and her lips are terribly cracked and full of deep ruts and she can no longer move her mouth.

Also, Michael Schiavo has forbidden her parents to see her this morning.

He's an asshole, plain and simple.

I hope Jeb Bush does something. This is crazy.

Apparently even the Supreme Court doesn't agree with that assessment. It rejected the parent's request.

I hope the whole circus stops now and she can rest in peace.

[Cody Dawg]

Oh, she's resting really well right now, I'm sure.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Protective custody next?

That's what the case has always been about, more or less. Whether or not to pull the plug has always been nothing more than a secondary effect of this issue.

Anyway, I find it interesting. Some people claim she's PVS and then argue to end her suffering by pulling the plug, but if she's PVS then she cannot experience suffering and therefore there's no need to pull the plug. Conversely, some people claim she's not PVS and therefore the plug shouldn't be pulled, but if she's not PVS then she has undoubtedly been suffering greatly for the past 15 years, and so pulling the plug would be a mercy. Each side is drawing a conclusion which doesn't follow logically from their own arguments.

Everything's all mixed up and backwards in this case, it seems. It's almost funny how that happens.

[waxcrash]

When Terri dies and goes to heaven or purgatory, will she be the pre-accident Terri or the vegetable Terri?

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, those contradictions are very odd.

I guess it's the same of political processes also.

Michael Schindler's attorney is accusing Jeb Bush of attempting to "kidnap Terri Schaivo."

This is getting weirder and weirder.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
When Terri dies and goes to heaven or purgatory, will she be the pre-accident Terri or the vegetable Terry?

excellent question (albeit for another thread maybe)

*getsoutpopcornandbeer*

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Yes, those contradictions are very odd.

I guess it's the same of political processes also.

Michael Schindler's attorney is accusing Jeb Bush of attempting to "kidnap Terri Schaivo."

This is getting weirder and weirder.

Nope, it doesn't. Jeb Bush is trying to circumvent the judiciary branch, mingling in affairs that have been settled by courts (all kinds of courts, federal, state, etc.).

That is a problem in its own right.

[lurkalot]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
You must mean cruel like Michael Schaivo who denied an MRI two weeks ago - after Judge Greer asked him if it was acceptable when the question was raised by the Schindler's attorney.

Or, you must mean cruel like Michael Schaivo who won't let her parents or siblings see her.

Yeah, I know the meaning of the word "cruel." You bet.

Remember, you people who say that we are being "cruel" by prolonging her life are the same ones saying that she cannot feel anything and is unaware - so where is the cruelty that you speak of?

People don't loose their right to be treated with dignity and in accordance with their wishes when they lose awareness.

The cruelty would be in keeping her on unwanted medical treatment in a condition from which she can not release herself but which she rejected prior to full incapacitation. That she is not aware of this doesn't change that. That is the reason why she told others what to do on her behalf if she should ever end in a condition in which she would no longer be able to act on her own behalf. Like her husband's grandmother who was kept on life support against her wishes and who against the written DNR order she placed herself was resuscitated. Terri told her husband and brother-in-law Scott Schiavo at her funeral that she would want to be released should she have no hope of recovery. That hope passed years ago.

What would be the purpose of a living will or a prior expression of intent if the person knows that these previously expressed wishes would not be honored "because they wouldn't know what was happening to them anyway" after full incapacitation?

Is that not also cruelty?

Another repeat:
""The Governor raises the specter of "an erroneous decision" as a basis for finding this interest compelling (Gov. Br. at 35). This Court, however, has rejected such speculation, noting that, while it may be "very convenient to insist on continuing [the incompetent person's] life so that there can be no question of foul play, no resulting civil liability and no possible trespass on medical ethics, " "it is quite another matter to do so at the patient's sole expense and against his competent will, thus inflicting never ending physical torture on his body until the inevitable, but artificially suspended, moment of death." John F Kennedy Memorial Hospital v. Bludworth"

And from in Browning:
" The state argues that we should not permit the enforcement of Mrs. Browning's
expressed wish because we can never know whether Mrs. Browning may have changed her
mind. A critical problem regarding the exercise of an incompetent's choice is
sometimes posed by the inability of the incompetent to express his or her immediate
wishes. Unfortunately, human limitations preclude absolute knowledge of the wishes
of someone in Mrs. Browning's condition. However, we cannot avoid making a
decision in these circumstances, for even the failure to act constitutes a choice.
That choice must be the patient's choice whenever possible. The right of privacy
requires that we must safeguard an individual's right to chart his or her own
medical course in the event of later incapacity."

Without the knowledge that the wishes expressed while competent would be honored without reasonable delay the right to forego unwanted treatment would be all but meaningless. To keep someone like Terri Schiavo in a state of limbo against her wishes is cruelty. To say that it doesn't matters because she is unaware in my opinion destroys any claim that the person saying so is a "disability" advocate.

New MRI. Once again. What would be the purpose?

[ironknee]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
When Terri dies and goes to heaven or purgatory, will she be the pre-accident Terri or the vegetable Terri?

agreed excellent question

however it is said that when in heaven we will all be 35 years old

how old is terri?

[Cody Dawg]

Jeb Bush is involved because a judge (Greer) ignored evidence that he requested be looked at. Just ignored it completely.

[bstone]

Originally posted by budster101:
I've been away from this thread too long it seems, but did anyone notice that there was a Doctor from the Mayo Clinic who is prepared to say Terri is NOT PVS? In that case, she can be quite aware of what is going on around her, but cannot communicate.

Anyone wish to dispute THIS doctor's credentials?
I'll find his name, but wanted to put this up for discussion.

He's a member of several Christian evangelical organizations whose leaders have publically denounced Mrs Schiavo's personal liberty.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Jeb Bush is involved because a judge (Greer) ignored evidence that he requested be looked at. Just ignored it completely.

Cody, you sound more and more desperate with each post.

[yakkiebah]

Get a grip tube huggers.

Twenty court rulings have sided with Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband and guardian. The courts have ruled that evidence shows Terri Schiavo expressed her wishes, although she did not have a written living will.

cnn link

Twenty!

[Cody Dawg]

At least my posts are intelligent and compassionate.

[ironknee]

NEW TAKE

ok let's take terri, the husband, the family etc out of the picture.

YOUR spouce/ girlfriend/boyfriend, partner is going through the same thing...ok?

Whatever your decision is, keep them alive or let them go doesn't matter...

the question is should the government step in and decide what's best?

[bstone]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
At least my posts are intelligent and compassionate.

No.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I feel a little vindicated: Terri Schaivo's brother just said that "seeing his sister reminds him of concentration camps in Germany because she looks so bad." That's for all of the people that jumped on me when I raised that analogy yesterday.

Just because he's trying to play the Hitler card as well doesn't make it any better.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Jeb Bush is involved because a judge (Greer) ignored evidence that he requested be looked at. Just ignored it completely.

It's not `a' judge, afaik at least 20 judges were involved. Every court decided the same way. Get over it, it's not one activist (aka leftist) judge, all of the judges involved came to the same conclusion, whether you like it or not.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
New MRI. Once again. What would be the purpose?

There has never been an MRI performed on Terry, because her husband has repeatedly refused it over all these years.

So now, our argument now has to focus on proving that CT scans are the ultimate diagnostic test for brain injury and function. Good luck disproving decades of medical practice and research.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Michael Schindler's attorney is accusing Jeb Bush of attempting to "kidnap Terri Schaivo."

Because that's exactly what it would be

[ironknee]

besides, she needs to lose some pounds

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
It's not `a' judge, afaik at least 20 judges were involved. Every court decided the same way. Get over it, it's not one activist (aka leftist) judge, all of the judges involved came to the same conclusion, whether you like it or not.

You're wrong.

Subsequent judges did not rehear the case. Most of their judgements were on whether or not procedure and the rule of law was followed correctly in the determining cases, or whether the parents' arguments for appeal were strong enough to warrant a rehearing.

These judges were not asked to rule on her PVS status (as Greer did), and therefore have not all "decided the same way" or all come "to the same conclusion".

You could, however, state that most of the judges did not find the parents' arguments strong enough to warrant a rehearing of the case. But that's not the same as saying all the judges agreed with Greer.