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Foxconn and Apple: Suicides expose stresses of China factory life
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Eug
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May 25, 2010, 01:21 PM
 
Suicides expose stresses of China factory life - The Globe and Mail

A spate of nine employee deaths at global contract electronics manufacturer Foxconn, Apple’s main supplier of iPhones, has cast a spotlight on some of the harsher aspects of blue-collar life on the Chinese factory floor.

The worker deaths at Foxconn factories this year, initially dismissed as isolated incidents, have since multiplied and triggered a growing controversy and scrutiny of Foxconn’s tight and secretive corporate culture, raising broader questions about the social cost of China’s cheap labour manufacturing model.

The latest death, the ninth in the past six months, followed a similar pattern of behaviour -- young factory workers plunging from buildings in a Foxconn industrial complex.


While not all have been confirmed as suicides, this was the 11th such incident at a Foxconn plant this year according to the official Xinhua news agency. Two of the 11 who survived were gravely injured in what were described as “suicide attempts“, including 18-year-old factory worker Rao Leqin whose fall was broken by a tree.

Foxconn has largely blamed the deaths on the workers’ personal problems, but set up counselling hotlines, hiring new counsellors and monitoring workers for “abnormal emotional outbursts“.


I wonder if Apple is trying to do anything about it, or at least will have some sort of PR take on it for the news outlets to chew on.

P.S. I wasn't sure what forum to put this in. If the mods think it's more appropriate for the polygrip forum, feel free to move it.
     
olePigeon
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May 25, 2010, 01:41 PM
 
I think it was Apple that initially brought up concerns with Foxconn. Seems like they need to do some of their famous hardball negotiating and get Foxconn to clean up their act.

Unfortunately, that's the cost of relatively cheap electronics.
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May 25, 2010, 01:54 PM
 
According to Wikipedia... the US annual suicide rate was 11.1 per 100,000... in year 2005.

Foxconn has a work force of 900,000 people.

Hm... hm....
     
Eug  (op)
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May 25, 2010, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
I think it was Apple that initially brought up concerns with Foxconn.
That's not true, AFAIK. It was an expose on Foxconn back a few years ago that brought these concerns to light. Then Apple responded with an investigation of their own.
     
Eug  (op)
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May 25, 2010, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sealobo View Post
According to Wikipedia... the US annual suicide rate was 11.1 per 100,000... in year 2005.

Foxconn has a work force of 900,000 people.
Well, that's not really a very good comparison. The US rate is all comers, including jobless psychiatric patients, etc.
     
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May 25, 2010, 05:20 PM
 
And if things don't improve, more employees will kill themselves until the company surrenders.

I think they need a better plan.

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May 25, 2010, 05:32 PM
 
Does Foxconn have any other clients other than Apple? Is Apple's demands causing this stress? Is this a wider problem in China, and only Foxconn is getting press because they are Apple's go to manufacturer for iPhones?
     
olePigeon
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May 25, 2010, 05:38 PM
 
Foxconn has everyone for clients.
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Eug  (op)
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May 25, 2010, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Foxconn has everyone for clients.
Yeah, for example, they make all three of the consoles.

For those of you who haven't heard the name Foxconn, you may know the name Hon Hai.
     
imitchellg5
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May 25, 2010, 09:11 PM
 
Laura June on Engadget had a good response to this. Her point was basically what on earth can we do about it? It's not like there are phones or MP3 players that aren't made by Foxconn. They make the iPhone, Droid, some of HTC's phones, etc.
     
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May 25, 2010, 09:29 PM
 
Dell's fancy, custom motherboards-and a lot of the accessory connections and extender boards-are made by Foxxcon. As olePigeon says, EVERYONE is their client.

I read about the suicides in Saturday's NY Times. It seems that the folks who are jumping off of buildings are primarily people who came from very rural areas and apparently they weren't prepared for the pressures and demands of the work they got. Whether this is a Very Bad Thing for Foxconn, for Apple, or for China-or all of the above-the situation is not good for the workers or for business. A while back Apple stepped in and insisted Foxconn do something about conditions in the iPod manufacturing center. I wonder if they'll intervene over iPads and laptops?

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Eug  (op)
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May 25, 2010, 09:35 PM
 
Well, everything I've heard about those jobs is that they SUCK. They're happy to have employment, but they live on campus, get low wages, and work excessive hours.

I guess it beats prostitution and manual labour in unsafe construction sites, but nonetheless the jobs suck.
     
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May 25, 2010, 09:41 PM
 
Suckage is relative. I've had jobs that sucked very badly. For example, I spent one year living in a building without running water and without a toilet, working at a job that required training that is not ever provided to the incumbent. I was away from my family for that whole year, with limited telephone service and I had to go to my office to use an Internet connection if I wanted to email or IM them. My pay was substantially below the industry median for what I did, and I had to pay for my family's housing and upkeep, even though I was in a sort of dormitory.

This was a remote assignment to Honduras. Nobody had running water and very few had network connections to their rooms. The job wasn't horrible, but learning what you need to do in a particular locale to meet the job requirements is never the way you want to do it. I"m not saying my job was as harsh or difficult as the Foxconn jobs, but if we're comparing rural workers' experience to the industrial jobs they take with Foxconn, perhaps it's not the hours or productivity that is the problem, but rather the vastly different culture?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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May 25, 2010, 11:45 PM
 
Student/teenager suicide rates are very high here in Hong Kong and just as bad across the border in China. The pressure from parents on their children to get perfect exam scores pushes many to jumping off buildings here.

These suicides at Foxxcon are unsurprising, they are only getting media attention because they happen to assemble some things for Apple. If it was another brand the media would not even bother.
     
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May 26, 2010, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Well, that's not really a very good comparison. The US rate is all comers, including jobless psychiatric patients, etc.
if China has a social security system anywhere like the US' then i guess many of those 900k workers would choose to be jobless than working like ants.

i have been to many of these labour intensive factories in southern China... the endless field of workers doing repetitive work is quite mind-boggling.
     
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May 26, 2010, 07:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Andy8 View Post
These suicides at Foxxcon are unsurprising, they are only getting media attention because they happen to assemble some things for Apple. If it was another brand the media would not even bother.
Baseless assumption of course.
     
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May 26, 2010, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Andy8 View Post
Student/teenager suicide rates are very high here in Hong Kong and just as bad across the border in China. The pressure from parents on their children to get perfect exam scores pushes many to jumping off buildings here.
True, its wise to look up when walking though housing estates or shopping centres.

Foxxcon's suicide rate is probably lower than the general population, which is possibly testament to the dedicated pastoral care they provide free of charge to their large family of employees.
     
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May 26, 2010, 01:26 PM
 
Wow... a 12th jumper just happened.

this is insane.
     
The Final Dakar
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May 26, 2010, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Baseless assumption of course.
Is it? I think somewhere else in the thread someone mentioned they work for everyone so why would the media single out Apple?
     
Eug  (op)
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May 26, 2010, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is it? I think somewhere else in the thread someone mentioned they work for everyone so why would the media single out Apple?
In the article I posted, the highlighted text (used to give a glimpse into the gist of the article) highlighted Dell.

“Every shift (10 hours), we finish 4,000 Dell computers, all the while standing up. We can accomplish these assignments through collective effort, but many of us feel worn out.”

The article also highlighted Apple as a big customer though, for iPhones.
     
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May 26, 2010, 04:43 PM
 
I'd say they mentioned DELL because 4,000 is the most impressive number available to them. I suppose I do have to compromise my initial thought. This probably would still be reported, but being able to invoke Apple's name helps push this closer to the forefront.
     
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May 27, 2010, 09:18 AM
 
FT.com / Technology - Apple and Dell investigate Foxconn plant

Apple, Dell and Hewlett-Packard on Wednesday said they were investigating working conditions at Foxconn after a series of suicides at the contract electronics manufacturer’s main plant in southern China.

Ten workers at Foxconn’s Shenzhen plant, which employs and houses 300,000 people, have died after falling off buildings since the beginning of this year, the latest on Wednesday. Police have confirmed seven of the cases as suicide.

Separately, three Taiwan TV stations have reported that another person had also jumped late on Wednesday but had survived. Two other workers have already attempted to kill themselves by jumping off buildings but survived.


Apple, one of Foxconn’s main customers, said a team from the US group was independently evaluating the steps the Taiwanese group was taking “to address these tragic events” and would continue inspections of the facilities where its products are made.

Hewlett-Packard said it was “investigating the Foxconn practices that may be associated with these tragic events”. While Dell said it expected suppliers to stick to the same high standards it had in its own facilities and was enforcing these standards through a variety of tools.
     
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May 27, 2010, 09:17 PM
 
Damn, we should dump our apple stock and stop buying their products.

Or the opposite works too.
     
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May 27, 2010, 11:00 PM
 
If I worked at a mega-factory in China, I'd probably want to kill myself too.
     
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Jun 2, 2010, 06:56 PM
 
Holy crap. These factory workers only got 900 yuan per month.

So they're getting a pay raise of 30% (!), which would make it a little under 1200 yuan per month. Before the 900 number was published, I had guessed it was at least 1200 a month.

To put that in perspective, an English speaking office secretary would make twice that or more.
     
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Jun 4, 2010, 03:10 AM
 
They did a segment on this on CNN a few days ago. The factory was clean and modern. It actually looked like a decent place to work. I worked in a factory in AZ in much worse conditions and hours than these people. We worked 5 12's and were sometimes volunteered for a 5 hour Saturday shift at noon, after getting off of work at 3am. Not to say these people don't have it bad, but the fact of the matter is that unless you have a union job, factory work sucks everywhere.
     
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Jun 4, 2010, 06:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Holy crap. These factory workers only got 900 yuan per month.

So they're getting a pay raise of 30% (!), which would make it a little under 1200 yuan per month. Before the 900 number was published, I had guessed it was at least 1200 a month.
Damn their greed! I hope this does not increase the cost of iPads.
     
downinflames68
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Jun 4, 2010, 10:39 AM
 
Who cares? China has billions of people, they will be replaced like..oh.. instantly.
     
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Jun 4, 2010, 11:11 AM
 
You're so sensitive.

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't think that a typical corporation has workers trying to kill themselves by jumping off of company buildings, at least not in the west. And that's unacceptable to me. I'm glad that Apple, HP, and others, are putting the pressure on Foxconn.
     
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Jun 4, 2010, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Who cares? China has billions of people, they will be replaced like..oh.. instantly.
Interestingly, they have the same attitude regarding wives.
     
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Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Interestingly, they have the same attitude regarding wives.
Ooooooh snap son!
     
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Jun 5, 2010, 08:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by downinflames68 View Post
Who cares? China has billions of people, they will be replaced like..oh.. instantly.
I'm gonna take this as a reflection of the Chinese government's attitude...and agree with it. Working conditions at Foxconn are apparently better than in most of the country, and yet we in the West think them deplorable. Why? Because even getting up to the level they're at, those jobs are lousy. And that's because of how the Chinese government has managed a whole lot of things...

So "who cares" is me and a lot of people, but apparently not the government that's responsible for the situation in the first place. Not politics here, just reporting what I see.

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Eug  (op)
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Jun 6, 2010, 11:35 PM
 


Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Holy crap. These factory workers only got 900 yuan per month.

So they're getting a pay raise of 30% (!), which would make it a little under 1200 yuan per month. Before the 900 number was published, I had guessed it was at least 1200 a month.

To put that in perspective, an English speaking office secretary would make twice that or more.
Foxconn to up wages again at suicide-hit China plant

TAIPEI (Reuters) – iPhone maker Foxconn (2038.HK) has offered workers at its Shenzhen manufacturing hub in China a 66 percent performance-based pay rise as it tries to deal with the fallout from a spate suicides there.

Foxconn, owned by Taiwan contract electronics maker Hon Hai Precision Industry (2317.TW), said on Sunday production line workers would be able to earn 2,000 yuan a month if they pass a three-month performance review. It did not give details of the evaluation process.

The latest hike, to take effect as early as October 1, comes on top of a 30 percent across the board rise in the cash part of wages announced last week and means wages will be more than double since employee suicides became a major issue last month. Before last week's rise, workers earned 900 yuan a month.


-

From 900 to 2000 yuan a month. That's quite the pay raise, to US$293 a month. By Chinese standards, that's actually a pretty decent wage as I understand it. 900 元 was not - totally awful. Hopefully, this 3-month performance review isn't a sham. Even 1500 元 a month would be considered half decent.

In the meantime, Sina is reporting a rumour that Apple will reduce its profit margins to help pay the increased salaries.

According to a report by Chinese news organization Sina, Apple has now quietly committed a dramatic gesture, offering to finance the majority of the 20 percent raise in pay to the Shenzhen workers. The raise was long promised to workers, but had remained undelivered for some time now.

The 20 percent raise will cost Apple a little, but not very much. It is estimated to raise the costs of labor for the iPad from 2.3 percent of the cost to 3.0 percent of the cost. Apple still looks to make hundreds in profit off of each unit sold (breakdowns estimated Apple makes at least $200 per iPad sold).
( Last edited by Eug; Jun 6, 2010 at 11:46 PM. )
     
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Jun 7, 2010, 10:21 AM
 
Failing the performance review sounds like one more reason to commit suicide.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 7, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
I'd like to hear an expert weigh in.... but I don't see how wages would "cure" this problem.
     
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Jun 7, 2010, 10:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'd like to hear an expert weigh in.
I already did.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 7, 2010, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'd like to hear an expert weigh in.... but I don't see how wages would "cure" this problem.
I'm no expert but...

Most of these people are relatively uneducated and from rural areas. They come to the big city looking for work to send money back to their relatives, to support their poor peasant families. Many actually leave kids back there for the grandparents to take care of while they're working.

The work is boring and low pay, and in order to generate enough money to send back, they have to work long, long hours. Although overtime can be "optional" it really isn't because everyone is "encouraged" to work long hours for two reasons: 1) The families need the money. 2) The employees eat and sleep in house. Employees who work lots of overtime are cheaper because the more workers working overtime, the less employees the companies need to house.

Because they're working such long hours for so low pay, they have no time for entertainment outside the workplace, and they can't afford it anyway. Plus, they rarely get the chance to go home for a visit. Many go back once a year to visit their extended families and their kids. Going back more than that would cost too much, and would take up too much potential work time.

Remember also that 900 yuan a month is low pay even by Chinese standards. High for poor rural peasant workers living in the boonies, but very low for city dwellers, where you might pay 10 yuan or whatever for a coffee at Starbucks (ie. they don't). BTW, I emailed a friend of mine, a Canadian running a business in Beijing. He says for a decent English-speaking secretary, they might pay up to 6000 yuan a month now, depending on the qualifications. Obviously, many will be paid less than that, but it does show you just how bad 900 yuan a month is.

I also wonder if some of that was clawed back for room and lodging. Many such companies will claim a pay like that, but with a large portion of that going directly to living expenses. I don't know if that's true for Foxconn though, or if the 900 was on top of living expenses.

IF Foxconn really does increase wages across the board and allow more leisure time, this could mean a huge boost to morale at Foxconn factories.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 7, 2010, 10:59 AM
 
I'm not reading that until I see your expert credentials.
     
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Jun 7, 2010, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not reading that until I see your expert credentials.
Added as you posted your post: "I'm no expert but..."

I suspect there are NO "experts" that would be posting in this thread. All I can say is that a few years back when I went to China to visit, I did not actually do any of the tourist things. It was a semi-business trip, but the business was only a few days, and I had given myself 3 weeks. I stayed in a friend's apt. the entire time and he was away for 2 weeks. All I did for about 10 days was walk around various parts of the city sampling the street food and talking to the locals, including the restaurant workers, beauty salon workers, taxi drivers, etc. It was a real eye opener. They were more than willing to tell me all the details, including about salaries, living conditions, options for work (including on the criminal side), etc.

Ironically, I asked the same questions of Starbucks employees in China and they told me I was being nosy and shut right up. Judging by their demeanor, language, and possessions, they seemed more like kids of locals and reasonably well-educated, in stark contrast to the restaurant workers.
     
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Jun 7, 2010, 11:17 AM
 
Well, I'm of the opinion that its the stress of the hours that is getting to these people. You're probably right in that they do it to send the money home, but as far as I remember the OT is mandatory. So a raise would be half the solution (More employees would be the other half).
     
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Jun 7, 2010, 11:23 AM
 
Yes, I agree. I've worked in situations where I was doing 80 hours or more a week. I can tell you it gets old real fast.

The OT (which I think is paid at time, not time and a half like in North America) is officially optional at many places AFAIK, but like I said it's effectively mandatory, or at least has been in the past.

So yes, a raise is half the solution, and more employees would be the other half. That's exactly what I was suggesting.
     
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Jun 7, 2010, 08:38 PM
 
The pay raises won't stop the suicides if they don't have time to spend the money off the job.

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Jun 8, 2010, 06:53 AM
 
i thought foxconn was in taiwan
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Jun 8, 2010, 07:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by PB2K View Post
i thought foxconn was in taiwan
Yes it is, but its larger factories are located in China.
     
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Jun 8, 2010, 08:20 AM
 
iPhone maker Foxconn seeks price hikes to offset wages

Taiwan's richest man said the company was looking for locations in Taiwan to shift some unspecified production from China to automated plants in Taiwan and wanted local authorities in China to manage its worker dormitories.

Analysts said already razor thin margins at Foxconn and Hon Hai would likely suffer as they wait to pass on the cost increases, and shares in both companies continued to slide, taking losses over the past two days to more than 10 percent each.

"In the near term it's quite unlikely they can pass the cost increase to customers, but in longer term it is reasonable ... customers may need to share part of the cost," said Chialin Lu, analyst at Macquarie Equities Research in Taipei.

"It will have bigger (earnings) impact especially in the second half of this year as most of the salary rise will come into effect in July."

Hon Hai said the wage rises would hit profits in the fourth quarter and into next year's first quarter.



Hong Kong protesters picket Apple supplier Foxconn's annual meeting after spate of suicides

Protesters picketed Foxconn's annual general meeting in Hong Kong on Tuesday, accusing both the Apple Inc. supplier and computer giant of poor corporate ethics after a recent spate of suicides at Foxconn factories in mainland China.

The 30 demonstrators held signs saying, "Workers are not machines. They have self-esteem," outside a hotel function room where shareholders of Hong Kong-listed Foxconn International Holdings Ltd. were meeting.

They also targeted Apple Inc., waving a cardboard cutout of Chief Executive Steve Jobs with devil's horns and another placard featuring the company logo and the words "Bloody Apple."


Protesters also laid white flowers at an Apple shop in a tribute to the dead workers. Organizer Debby Chan accused Foxconn of poor management, urging the Taiwanese manufacturer of iPhones and iPads to raise wages and let workers set up an independent union.

Chan said Apple should do a better job of monitoring labour and safety standards at their suppliers.

"They should strengthen their sense of corporate social responsibility," Chan said in a phone interview.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 10:41 AM
 
Chinese labour unrest spreads - The Globe and Mail

Chinese labour protests that have forced shutdowns at foreign factories have spread beyond south China’s industrial heartland, posing a dangerous new challenge for Beijing.

The violence at KOK International in Kunshan, a factory town in southern Jiangsu province, came just a day after Honda struggled to contain the fallout from its second strike in as many weeks. That strike, at Foshan Fengfu Autoparts, a joint venture majority held by a Honda subsidiary, forced the Japanese carmaker to suspend production at its car assembly plants in nearby Guangzhou, the capital of Guangdong province.


The workers at Foshan Fengfu, which employs 492 people, appeared to have been inspired by a successful strike last week at another Honda components supplier which ended only after the company agreed to a 24-33 per cent wage hike.

Honda said the strike was continuing on Wednesday morning, contradicting a report by the official Xinhua news agency that workers had “completely dispersed” after the supplier, which makes exhaust components for its parent, agreed to come back with an adjusted wage offer in ten days’ time.

The unrest in Foshan suggests that strikes are proliferating faster than local governments and the official All China Federation of Trade Unions – which workers have largely circumvented in their recent protests – can resolve them.
     
Eug  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
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Jun 10, 2010, 09:14 PM
 
     
downinflames68
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Jun 11, 2010, 01:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I already did.
*snip*
( Last edited by ThinkInsane; Jun 11, 2010 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Uncalled for pic)
     
moonmonkey
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Jun 11, 2010, 07:17 AM
 
Eug, what have you done?

Foxconn to close all China factories | MacNN

A lot of furious Apple employees will now have to leave their multi Million US$ luxury Hong Kong homes and move to hovels in Taiwan.
     
 
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