[Moderator]

I'm serious. The ultra conservative wing of this part has taken over the United States government. Religious fundamentalism is seeping into the governement, the country is despised by the world (secular and fundamental), our government is invading countries, torturing POWs, lying to us all, spying on us all. Anyone of us could be swept up off the street and hauled away secretly and without due process. Mega corporations are paying for and controlling US policy. Dissenters are publicly destroyed. War profiteering used to be shameful, now its patriotic. Anyone halfway moderate is a commie liberal. Socially we are moving backward. Abortion is dead..even if its a 13 year old girl who's been raped. Gay adoption will be outlawed. Science is being undermined by the government. Fear is abound..Hatred is everywhere...And half the country is cheering this on.

What is the left dies. What if this is a revolution that may not be undone for 100 years. Look at Iran. Iran was a modern, well educated, liberal society before the revolution. They moved backward and have continued to move backward for 30 years. What if that is what is happening here.

People saw that revolution coming. The same arguments were used. They blamed the secularists for destroying a culture of values. Its what we hear all the time. I'd always thought the good guys would win but...what happens if we don't?

I am ashamed of this country's direction. I am fearful. I am sorry that the United States I thought I lived in is dead. If we love this country shouldn't we do something about it?

At what point do we stand up and fight. I'm not talking about bickering on forums. I'm talking about getting involved. Resisting. Volunteering for a moderate candidate in your area. Actively fighting, whatever it takes. The balance has swung and if the right keeps its majority in '06, it may be over.

What happens if this is a revolution and the fundamentalists do win? Do you fight back? Do you march? Do you quit your job and dedicate yourself to saving the country? Do you just move away, give up on what America once was, and try to enjoy your life where you can?

Where exactly is the Event Horizon here. At what point is this right wing domination no longer a temporary cyclical thing. What if its permanent, how would we know? Has it happened already?

The right has looked at everything as a "war" war on terrorism, war in iraq, culture war, war on christmas. Everything is a war because wars stir passion. But for many of us logic and reason rule..at the expense of passion. As a result, the values of reason, equality, fairness, freedom (in the real sense) are being wiped out by passionate extremistis.

The ultra right has declared war on us, and they've waged it with a passion. We've laughed at them, not believing that such extremism could take hold in a free society. Well its happening. This isn't funny anymore. This is a civil war. We need to protect this country.

So at what point to we recognize that this is our purpose? Anyone out there who is appauled and afraid at the direction this country has gonbe in in the last 6 years needs to do his or her part to push back now. The media's not doing it. The Denmocrats aren't doing it. Who the fcuk's going to do it? We have to, and it has to be now.

'06 and '08 are our final chances. or its over.

[Spliffdaddy]

Since a lot of the lefties live in cities which have legislated away their right to bear arms - I'd say it would be quick and decisive war.

You seem to forget that the current government represents the will of the people.

I lived through 8 years of horror during the Clinton years, and I survived it quite well. So, suck it up, it all works in cycles.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Since a lot of the lefties live in cities which have legislated away their right to bear arms - I'd say it would be quick and decisive war.

You seem to forget that the current government represents the will of the people.

I lived through 8 years of horror during the Clinton years, and I survived it quite well. So, suck it up, it all works in cycles.

But during the Clinton years no one was agressively declaring war on your way of life. It was live and let live. You were free to do what you wanted. You were not free to make other people do what you wanted.

This is not the case today. Today we are less free (enemy combatants, wiretaps) and a certain percentage of people in power want to force us to live according to Old Testament law and want to watch us to make sure we are doing it.

I do not believe the current government represents the will of the people. I believe most Americans are scared shirtless for no real reason and otherwise distracted by the drug of consumerism to notice what is happening.

And like the Islamic Revolution. And like Global Warming. By the time people notice it may be too late.

If the secularists in Iran had understood the full ramifications of the growing storm of fundamentalism in the 70's. They could have stopped it. And Iran would be a wonderful place today.

[Sky Captain]

I beg to differ.
The protection of marriage act.
Opening blow to homosexuals.
By a democrat administration.

And one had to be prepaired. And willing to protect their life and property.
Who here actually has a plan? Food and water for 3 months or so?
And does anyone actually "expect" the government to provide for them during and after such a catastophy?

Hmmm.

*off to buy another 1K can of .223s.*

[BRussell]

If there was another American revolution, the leftist insurgents that you speak of would do what they did on Nov. 2, 2004: Stay home and watch MTV.

[Nicko]

Hmmmm, I think the US becoming a police state more likely.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by BRussell

If there was another American revolution, the leftist insurgents that you speak of would do what they did on Nov. 2, 2004: Stay home and watch MTV.

And smoke dope.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

And smoke dope.

And then laugh when Dave Bowie swipes Snoop's bling. And then go to the 7/11 and sip steal Coke and hope their Moms get arrested for not having proof of insurance in the car!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Hmmmm, I think the US becoming a police state more likely.

I LOVE your sarcasm!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Moderator

But during the Clinton years no one was agressively declaring war on your way of life. It was live and let live. You were free to do what you wanted. You were not free to make other people do what you wanted.

You do not remember the Clinton years very well. Anyone remember the whole "Don't ask don't tell" where gays were still not allowed in the Military, but Clinton said if you are, just don't tell!

That surely doesn't sound like what you described above.

Or how about the times he bombed Iraq?

What about Waco? Ruby Ridge?

I think you need to go back and review the 90s.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You do not remember the Clinton years very well. Anyone remember the whole "Don't ask don't tell" where gays were still not allowed in the Military, but Clinton said if you are, just don't tell!

That surely doesn't sound like what you described above.

Or how about the times he bombed Iraq?

What about Waco? Ruby Ridge?

I think you need to go back and review the 90s.

It's a human condition to think one's own poo poo doesn't stink. It's a known fact that GOP and conservative poo smells less than Fuzzy brained poo.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I think you need to go back and review the 90s.

I could argue with you but...It doesn't matter. I'm not talking to you. You're one of the cheering masses who are happilly surrendering your liberties. You are the enemy.

You mistake me for this mythical "liberal" you've invented. I voted for Dole. I gave a speech to my high school advocating for Bush Sr. I am conservative in may ways, though not socially. I appreciate personal freedom and resplonsibility, dissent, due process, equality. I admire Jesus...the real Jesus.

You don't care if you're being watched by big brother, you don't want whats right, you want what the Old Testament says to want. You want want Cheney tells you to want. You're afraifd of what Cheney makes you afraid of.

Is it liberal to be alarmed that the US government deems it within its right to secrettly apprehend americans? Wasn't that a conservative ideal a few years ago. Wasn't Total Information Awareness a blow to conservative ideals? What happened?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Moderator

I could argue with you but...It doesn't matter. I'm not talking to you. You're one of the cheering masses who are happilly surrendering your liberties. You are the enemy.

And you are the wacked out lefty that is full of hyperbole and denial. It's obvious from what you just posted.

You mistake me for this mythical "liberal" you've invented.

No, I didn't mistaken you for anything. I had no perceptions till I just read what you posted above. After that, it was pretty clear.

I voted for Dole. I gave a speech to my high school advocating for Bush Sr. I am conservative in may ways, though not socially. I appreciate personal freedom and resplonsibility, dissent, due process, equality.

And I voted for Clinton in the 90s, and later found out what a big mistake I made. So your projection is wrong.

I admire Jesus...the real Jesus.

Tell me, where can I read about this "real" Jesus?

You don't care if you're being watched by big brother

I would bet a substantial amount of money on the fact that no one is watching me.

you don't want whats right,

Of course I do. Everyone does. We just disagree on what is right.

you want what the Old Testament says to want.

Huh? I do? No. Yet another projection.

You want want Cheney tells you to want. You're afraifd of what Cheney makes you afraid of.

I could give two hoots about Cheney. Wrong again. Keep em coming.
The funny part about this is, you are doing the very thing you just accused me of.

Is it liberal to be alarmed that the US government deems it within its right to secrettly apprehend americans? Wasn't that a conservative ideal a few years ago. Wasn't Total Information Awareness a blow to conservative ideals? What happened?

I guess a bunch of people like you got all paranoid by teh FUD you read and blew it all out of proportion. Happens every day.

I am sorry you didn't like my honest reply to you. It's not something you can really deny or argue, and I see you didn't even try to.

I wouldn't have if I was you either.

[Moderator]

I'm sorry but your characterization of me as a "lefty" is patently false. I'd be interested in knowing exactly what postion I hold makes me a "lefty".

Of course, I already know, anyone who dissents is a "lefty." Anyone who thinks a persons sex life is personal is a "lefty." Anyone who thinks its fcuked that our government is collecting our emails and phone calls is a "lefty." And anyone who thinks American's ought to have access to attorney's when they are arrested is a "lefty." Anyone who thinks invading Iraq had zero to do with terrorism is a "lefty." Anyone who believes religion is a personal matter not the business of our government is a "lefty."

What the fcuk does that make you?

[MinM]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You do not remember the Clinton years very well. Anyone remember the whole "Don't ask don't tell" where gays were still not allowed in the Military, but Clinton said if you are, just don't tell!

That surely doesn't sound like what you described above.

Or how about the times he bombed Iraq?

What about Waco? Ruby Ridge?

I think you need to go back and review the 90s.

Shhhhhhh!

History began in 2001! None of that stuff matters.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Moderator

I'm sorry but your characterization of me as a "lefty" is patently false. I'd be interested in knowing exactly what postion I hold makes me a "lefty".

You don't get it, I was just doing what you did to me. And you can't even see it.

Of course, I already know, anyone who dissents is a "lefty." Anyone who thinks a persons sex life is personal is a "lefty."

No, because I believe these things too. I am ALL FOR GAYS having all kinds of sex and do with themselves what they want. That is their choice. I wouldn't condone them bringing an "innocent" bystander that had no choice in the matter though. I would never put a kid through that. But again, that is MHO. If the gov decides it's ok, I would never fight it. Give to Caesar what is Caesars.

Anyone who thinks its fcuked that our government is collecting our emails and phone calls is a "lefty."

I am betting they don't have one damned email of mine. Again, I don't buy into FUD. I am not becoming a victim of the paranoia game. That doesn't make me a left or a righty. That just makes me smart.

And anyone who thinks American's ought to have access to attorney's when they are arrested is a "lefty."

They do do they not? If not, I agree this is bad.

Anyone who thinks invading Iraq had zero to do with terrorism is a "lefty."

Well most are lefties. I would say that those who think Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism were "uninformed".

Anyone who believes religion is a personal matter not the business of our government is a "lefty.

Oh, that is not true at all. Lefties think that the Gov has power to tell the religious what they can and cannot do. I am ALL FOR the Gov leaving the religious be. That means anyone that is religious, can practice it freely, and express it in any way they choose. (As long as it's not hurting anyone of course! no virgin sacrifices. )

What the fcuk does that make you?

It makes me a human. A Christian if you will.

I realize that the world is going to hell in a hand-basket. I have my opinions, but know things are going to the slum no matter what I do.

I'll live my life how I see fit, and continue to.

I don't march at anti-abortion clinics, I don't go to anti-gay parades.

I will inform people of my opinions when asked however.

[Moderator]

Total Information Awareness is hardly paranoia. Its as real as you are. It was defunded by Congress based on outrage by traditional conservatives and secretly moved and renaimed by the adminsitration to the NSA. Its data mining, its not targeted at Al Qaida, and you have no idea if your corrosponence has been collected, where it currently resides, who or what is analyzing it, if it will ever be destroyed, and what it may be used for in the future.

This ought to concern a true conservative.

Your assertion that a child adopted by a gay person is an "innocent bystander" pretty much cements your position there. You're saying being gay is wrong and a danger to others. Hmm..where did you get that idea? Not from Jesus I can tell you that.

Yes Americans have been detained and held without charges and without access to lawyers. And the adminsitration has argued that it has that right because, surprise surprise, we're in a time of war.

Everyone already knows Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. You may as well argue that the sun revolves around the earth. Sure it has a lot to do with terrorism now. Because GW answered OBL's prayers and gave him the war he dreamed of. I doubt either of us are uninformed. Everything is out there. I just think you're taking it on faith rather than examining the facts.

As for the Government and religion. Where you came up with this idea that "lefties" think the government out to have the power to control people's religious freedoms is beyond me. It sounds like one of those "WAR ON (fill in the blank)" outcry's that Fox uses to whip people into a frenzy. My belief, and that of most rational beings, is that one's religion is personal and private and the government ought to stay out of it. That means no trying to squeeze creationism into science class, no outlawing behavior that is only wrong because the old testament says so.

If gays shouldn't adopt, should adulterers, should neighbor's wife coveters? I could pick 50 people of the street that are less capable of raising a good kid than a loving gay couple. But of course..that old testament thing again..just can't shake that. At least in this case its something you and the mullahs agree on.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Since a lot of the lefties live in cities which have legislated away their right to bear arms - I'd say it would be quick and decisive war.

-The first half of your sentence is right on, the second half is questionable due to large population centers. You better have a big gun, and not the kind S&W makes. But then, that would make you a terrorist.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You seem to forget that the current government represents the will of the people.

-That is entirely your opinion. The current government represents your brand of 'will'; which, from your history of posts, is comprised mostly of hatred towards others and the clever use of acerbic goading to maintain the hate at all cost. It keeps liberals hopping around like water on hot oil. It is a brilliant tactic, though I disagree with it from a moral perspective.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I lived through 8 years of horror during the Clinton years, and I survived it quite well. So, suck it up, it all works in cycles.

-And that is the glimmer of hope. The pendulum swings.

BTW Thanks for hanging in there for 8 years.
You must admit, it was entertaining.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by osiris

-And that is the glimmer of hope. The pendulum swings.

This is what we all assume. But what if the next swing is 50 years away. The right is working very hard to make sure the pendulum does not swing back again. And they are using all facets of government, and more, to accomplish this. My question is, what are the rest of us doing to counter that?

Nothing, some of us are waiting, most of us aren't even paying attention. So when will we notice its not coming back. when will it go so far right that we notice?

At some point don't we have a duty to push back? What makes you assume it's coming back. Do you believe this democracy is incapable of being manipulated? This has been the perfect storm for the neocons and the Christian right. They have it all. What makes you think they'll let go?

[Spliffdaddy]

You keep forgetting the American people *chose* this government. It wasn't stolen.

If the proverbial pendulum never swings back to the left, then apparently that's what the American people want.

Keep in mind, the liberals have been in power since the early 1960's. It's gonna take a few decades for the right to fix things back.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You keep forgetting the American people *chose* this government. It wasn't stolen.

If the proverbial pendulum never swings back to the left, then apparently that's what the American people want..

1. Fact: It was stolen. ('00)
2. Fear of "Mushroom Clouds" and "Homos" can do a lot for a party's turnout.
3. If the pendulum swings right and gets lodged there due to the force of a secretive, authoritative contolling government, does that mean that's what the American people want?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You keep forgetting the American people *chose* this government. It wasn't stolen.

Bush actually lost the popular vote when he went into office. So while it's a stretch to say he stole anything, it's about as much of a stretch to say the American people chose that outcome.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Keep in mind, the liberals have been in power since the early 1960's. It's gonna take a few decades for the right to fix things back.

The presidency has been pretty evenly split between the parties since the '60s. If I recall correctly, from 1960 to now, there have been five Democratic presidents and six Republican presidents.

[Moderator]

I am betting they don't have one damned email of mine. Again, I don't buy into FUD. I am not becoming a victim of the paranoia game. That doesn't make me a left or a righty. That just makes me smart.

Smart Indeed.

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njw...06/0223nj1.htm

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Moderator

This is what we all assume. But what if the next swing is 50 years away. The right is working very hard to make sure the pendulum does not swing back again. And they are using all facets of government, and more, to accomplish this. My question is, what are the rest of us doing to counter that?

You are doing it now - by bringing the issue to light. Also by talking to friends and family about what is going on, and a call to participate in the next election. Unfortunately, some swings take decades, but maybe not this time around if people get off their asses and vote.

Originally Posted by Moderator

Nothing, some of us are waiting, most of us aren't even paying attention. So when will we notice its not coming back. when will it go so far right that we notice?

At some point don't we have a duty to push back? What makes you assume it's coming back. Do you believe this democracy is incapable of being manipulated? This has been the perfect storm for the neocons and the Christian right. They have it all. What makes you think they'll let go?

Our duty to vote is a means to push back. If we don't, we deserve what comes. But yes, this country has already been manipulated by the neocons and the Christian right- they have their act together and know how to emotionally manipulate through fear. The neocons are not stupid and have planned this for quite some time (google PNAC), but many are unaware as to what is going on, apparently. Maybe a democrat should make this known. This candidate should also focus on the 'catalyzing event' mentioned in PNAC, and the changes that have occurred since 9/11.

The job of the next democrat is to challenge the misconceptions, dispel the myths and lies. And have the big brass ones to fight off the likes of Rove.

Other than that, I really don't know what to say.

[Dork.]

There's an awful lot of mindless partisan bloviating in this thread. But there are some things that I think we can all agree on, regardless of partisanship:

1) We are turning into a Police State. You don't have to be a loony liberal to think that -- even Peggy Noonan said that this week, in reference specifically to airport security, but we can find examples in many other policies of this administration. This administration is using the "War on Terror" as justification for all manner of things that no other administration, Democrat or Republican, would have dreamed of doing in the past. They say it's to prevent another 9/11. But most of the things they are doing would not have prevented another 9/11. Why do they need such broad powers?

A question for all the Bush supporters here: Are you really proud of what we've set up in Guantanamo? Do you really think that the administration couldn't have set up a prison for suspected terrorists any other way? And does it bother you that so much of its operation is held in strict secrecy?

2) Today's Democratic Party does not seem fit to run an Arabian Horse show these days, much less stand up to this administration. Does the Democratic Party have any leaders that can inspire anymore? Where have they all gone?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dork.

2) Today's Democratic Party does not seem fit to run an Arabian Horse show these days, much less stand up to this administration. Does the Democratic Party have any leaders that can inspire anymore? Where have they all gone?

If John McCain is any indication, to the Republican party.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Moderator

1. Fact: It was stolen. ('00)

Myth.
Electorial college.
Civics 101

We are a representative republic.

[Spliffdaddy]

If the Presidency was stolen, how do you explain the Republican majorities in Congress, Senate, and state government?

Were those stolen, as well?

Face it, the majority of Americans believe that they are being adequately represented.

They gave the Democrats a chance - and apparently didn't like the result.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Dork.

2) Today's Democratic Party does not seem fit to run an Arabian Horse show these days, much less stand up to this administration. Does the Democratic Party have any leaders that can inspire anymore? Where have they all gone?

Zell Miller.
The ONLY deomcrat I would vote for in a Presidential race.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

Myth.
Electorial college.
Civics 101

We are a representative republic.

I doubt he was talking about the electoral college. I don't think it was "stolen," but more people voted for Gore in Florida. Bush's lawyers were able to get enough of the Gore votes thrown out on technicalities that Bush won. That's the legal process, and that's the way it goes, but it doesn't change the underlying facts.

Sometimes murderers are released from custody on technicalities too. That doesn't change the underlying fact that the guy is a killer, but we have to live within our legal system.

[Moderator]

That I believe it was stolen is irrelevant anyway. Bush has the right people in the right places. Katherine Harris gave him the election when she called off the recount...Fine..its done.

I dont trust the Democratic party to fight back. I believe that, for the most part, they deserve the irrelevance they've earned. But without them, and thats where we are, we've got a one party state, which is what we have.

Think of all that's changed in the last 5 years. 5 years! Imagine if these people win in 06 and 08! Its over. The choice will be to either live under an authoritative regime, join the resistance movement, or move to Europe...if they'll take us.

'06 is so important. Every one of us needs to find a local candidate running at any, fcuk every level..and support him or her, volunteer, get the word out. And dont believe when they call you "out of touch" or whatever else they'll say. Thats their strategy...fcuk 'em. The shirt is about to hit the fan. We need some serious people who give a shirt about the world to ante up right now.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Moderator

I could argue with you but...It doesn't matter. I'm not talking to you. You're one of the cheering masses who are happilly surrendering your liberties. You are the enemy.

TIME OUT

I am forced to suspend thread integrity for a moment to provide a reality check.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4750320.stm
Long path to Iraq's sectarian split

Please regard the news passing before your eyes not only as something to REACT to but something to LEARN FROM.

Kevin is not your enemy. No one thinking person on the conservative/GOP/right side is your enemy. And you are not theirs unless you choose to be.

And btw, your post suggests even though you may have voted GOP your innards were always Fuzzy.

Ok. Back to the game.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If John McCain is any indication, to the Republican party.

I don't care what anyone says about John McCain's liberal leanings, he is an intelligent guy, he has a fun loving side, he has war experience and the man has integrity, principles and a backbone.

And, according to Torie Clarke's new book, "Lipstick on a Pig," he has a healthy temper when you push him too far.



http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0743...33#reader-page

Here is a short excerpt which gives some insight into the kind of guy John McCain is.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Moderator

I'm sorry but your characterization of me as a "lefty" is patently false. I'd be interested in knowing exactly what postion I hold makes me a "lefty".

Of course, I already know, anyone who dissents is a "lefty."

How you conduct your dissent and the lengths to which you'd go to bury your 'enemy' speaks volumes.

Anyone who thinks a persons sex life is personal is a "lefty."

If you are referring to Clinton, his sex life "spilled" over into the public's business when he "did not have sex with that woman" in the Oval Office. If you are talking about homosexuality, no one is prohibiting you from having sex with members of your own gender as long as the person(s) is a consenting adult.

Anyone who thinks its fcuked that our government is collecting our emails and phone calls is a "lefty."

The computer can do remarkable, miraculous things! It has even changed the foundational assumptions of our laws and made us change the laws to adapt to this brave new world. You fail to recognize we are being victimized by the same technology you may 'pleasure' yourself by. Wake up. Put the smoke away. The laws HAVE to reflect TODAY'S realities. BTW, we're at war. REAL war. Google it.

Anyone who thinks invading Iraq had zero to do with terrorism is a "lefty."

Hh! Hh! Hh! Anyone who thinks invading Iraq had zero to do with terrorism is a Fuzzy brained imbecile.

Anyone who believes religion is a personal matter not the business of our government is a "lefty."

No one is trying to force any of you God-less heathens to worship. So what's yer beef?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

Kevin is not your enemy. No one thinking person on the conservative/GOP/right side is your enemy. And you are not theirs unless you choose to be.

Bingo. We are on the same team. And need to start acting like it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Moderator

That I believe it was stolen is irrelevant anyway. Bush has the right people in the right places. Katherine Harris gave him the election when she called off the recount...Fine..its done.

Well at least you say YOU BELIEVE, and don't count it as factual. Because it's not. Nothing was stolen.

Not the first time, not the second.

You sir are buying into their FUD, hook, line and sinker.

[Sky Captain]

And if anyone comes marching down the street as a revolutionary, I'll defend my government. By any means necessary.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Moderator

I could argue with you but...It doesn't matter. I'm not talking to you. You're one of the cheering masses who are happilly surrendering your liberties. You are the enemy.

The right wing. Giving up liberty in the name of liberty since 2000.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Since a lot of the lefties live in cities which have legislated away their right to bear arms - I'd say it would be quick and decisive war.

It's horribly simple minded to think you need guns to have a revolution. America has a gun less revolution every 4 years.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

The right wing. Giving up liberty in the name of liberty since 2000.

Again yet another person that has a memory of history that seems to begin in 2000.

I don't worry about the type of people that would make this type of asinine comment. Usually they are the "do nothings" of this world.

Originally Posted by goMac

It's horribly simple minded to think you need guns to have a revolution. America has a gun less revolution every 4 years.

The elections are hardly a revolution bub. No need to get all drama queeny on us.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The elections are hardly a revolution bub. No need to get all drama queeny on us.

Right. Political change is only brought about with guns. I forgot. :-\

[Kevin]

No, we don't overthrow one gov for another. That is a revolution.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, we don't overthrow one gov for another. That is a revolution.

Yes, we do. You're voting for a government when you go to the polls and vote for officials. You're not voting for a person, you're voting for the government they represent.

[Kevin]

AGAIN that isn't OVERTHROWING anyone. That is democratically voting for a new leader.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin

AGAIN that isn't OVERTHROWING anyone. That is democratically voting for a new leader.

So what makes an election and a revolution different? Both result in a new government brought in by the will of the people. They're the same thing. The reason our government doesn't change much is because American politics is a big mess of sameness. Look at Spain and Palestine as examples of countries where an entirely new government was voted in due to Democracy. Through elections the United States could become a communist government, and anarchist government, anything. We've already voted in people who are changing the very basis of our government. To think that you need to have an armed uprising to have a revolution is a horrible immature way to look at US politics.

The US government was built on the principle that we could not have dictators because there was a revolution forced every 4 years.

[Kevin]

One is forced by a group un-democratically and un-Constitionally and one is not.

I think you know there is a difference, and are now just being trollish.

It's getting rather silly.

I am sorry it didn't work out the way you were hoping.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin

One is forced by a group un-democratically and un-Constitionally and one is not.

I think you know there is a difference, and are now just being trollish.

It's getting rather silly.

I am sorry it didn't work out the way you were hoping.

No, you're thinking of an insurrection. I'm talking about a revolution.

rev·o·lu·tion
2. The overthrow of one government and its replacement with another.

(The Dictionary widget had a much better definition of a forced change but it wouldn't copy, darn.)

The definition of insurrection is:
"The act or an instance of open revolt against civil authority or a constituted government."

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by goMac

The right wing. Giving up liberty in the name of liberty since 2000.

The right wing. Adapting to changes in society and national defense brought about by advances in technology and keeping Fuzzy-asses safe, along with all the rest of America, even during wartime, and still protecting our rights, since 2000.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

No, you're thinking of an insurrection. I'm talking about a revolution.

rev·o·lu·tion
2. The overthrow of one government and its replacement with another.

(The Dictionary widget had a much better definition of a forced change but it wouldn't copy, darn.)

The definition of insurrection is:
"The act or an instance of open revolt against civil authority or a constituted government."

AGAIN we aren't OVERTHROWING anyone

"To bring about the downfall or destruction of, especially by force or concerted action: a plot to overthrow the government."

[vmarks]

The Palestinian Authority (There is no Palestine, unless you consider it to be Gaza) is not democracy in action: it's tyranny with an affinity for elections.

Elections in the USA do not bring in a new government per se: the government remains that of a constitutional republic, governed by the Constitution of the United States of America. All your vote does is change your representatives in their various offices.

This is what was so silly about people who used the words 'regime change for America' last November: they meant those words to mean getting Bush out of office, but the words truly mean overthrow of the Constitution.

Furthermore, it amazes me to hear a person saying that if Republicans win offices in '06 and '08, that America as we know it is 'over.' Democrats won offices in large numbers for 50 years and Republicans didn't say the America they envisioned was 'over.' No, they simply put forth their ideas and engaged people in thinking about them.

Telling us that everyone you disagree with must be a 'sheep' to be herded is crying sour grapes and takes away the fact that they're adults responsible for their decisions.

If you want to regain a position of Democrat party dominance, you have to engage people with your positions and ideas and the positive reasons to adopt those positions and ideas. Instead what I see is a lot of negativism with very few ideas other than 'undo everything that's been done since we last reigned supreme.' You've succeeded in assigning 'FEAR' to the Republican party, but you've spectacularly failed at assigning 'HOPE' to any alternative. 'HOPE' can't be just 'undoing the last six years,' 'HOPE' has to be something you want to do, policies, actions, ideas that can compete with the present Republican ideas. And you and the people on the left, the people at Democratic Underground, the people at DailyKos, the people at MoveOn, the people at the DNC, just haven't expressed any, and certainly not any that have engaged people in the marketplace of ideas. Rather than rally for armed revolt, come up with a positive position that captivates and engages people.