[MindFad]

Well, the debate on domestic policy is sure to be another hoot. Looking forward to it!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by AuPhalanx:
Wow! Decent debate. I was impressed with the fact that the question about Dafur really threw both candidates. ("Yes, it is a genocide...")

Bush won. Hands down.

Whilst Kerry is a much better speaker and has the look and sound of a statesman, he really did not say that much. Here's how I see it: If you were to get business advice, to whom would you listen, a polished Harvard MBA who can give a good talk or someone like Richard Branson, who can barely put a coherent sentence together but actually built a business empire?

That's what we had tonight. We had a smooth-talker and a man who's actually walking the walk. Bush might not be the best speaker, but he is not a stupid person. People who judge him because of his speaking have not been around very many wicked smart people. And they've probably been sold quite a few cars that were lemons.

Have fun... Tony.

Excellent insight which echoes my thought in a previous post.

[AuPhalanx]

Originally posted by Icruise:
By the way, you do realize that the one with the MBA from Harvard is Bush, right? And that his "business empire" was not exactly the most successful in the world?

Icruise!

Yes, I do realize that Bush has an MBA, but that is neither here nor there. It was merely an analogy. I do not know what you mean with the second question regarding "his 'business empire' was not exactly the most successful in the world." Mr. Branson's business or President Bush's business? If you are referring to Bush's business dealings, then once again it is a case of it's neither here nor there: I made an analogy.

Have fun... Tony.

[icruise]

It was an analogy -- a spectacularly bad one, since you were comparing Kerry to a Harvard MBA when actually Bush is one, and implying that Bush was a straight-talking self-made-man, when in fact he has been rather unsuccessful at his business ventures.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by fireside:
so you don't think Bush practices his speeches or practiced for this debate?

Sure he did. But Kerry's biggest challenge is to say the things that he won't flip-flop on later. We'll be watching.

[Demonhood]

i'm just upset that i didn't win at debate bingo at my party. if only someone had said "In bed with...", i would have been golden.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Icruise:
It was an analogy -- a spectacularly bad one, since you were comparing Kerry to a Harvard MBA when actually Bush is one, and implying that Bush was a straight-talking self-made-man, when in fact he has been rather unsuccessful at his business ventures.

I disagree.

It's the difference between academia vs the real world.

Kerry may have seemed viable in this 90 minute session by criticizing the President and offering up plans and promises with little or no specifics mentioned, but the President has been tested under fire and represents the greatest hope for success in the WOT.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Icruise:
It was an analogy -- a spectacularly bad one, since you were comparing Kerry to a Harvard MBA when actually Bush is one, and implying that Bush was a straight-talking self-made-man, when in fact he has been rather unsuccessful at his business ventures.

Um, Bush started a company from scratch and sold it for $8 million. What have you done?

[AuPhalanx]

Originally posted by Icruise:
It was an analogy -- a spectacularly bad one, since you were comparing Kerry to a Harvard MBA when actually Bush is one, and implying that Bush was a straight-talking self-made-man, when in fact he has been rather unsuccessful at his business ventures.

Icruise!

I feel like we are in one of Plato's Dialogues. The analogy is referring to the fact that people think Bush is stupid because he doesn't speak smoothly. That is all. It does not make any reference to their actions or deeds. Thus, it is a solid analogy,

A polished MBA is to an accomplished business person as a car salesman is to a seasoned mechanic. Both have their functions, but because one may have dirt underneath his fingernails does not make him or his ideas less valid or cogent.

Have fun... Tony.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Atomic Rooster:
Bush must have gotten 'bitchslapped' pretty bad...aberdeenwriter has gone kinda funny and running around cackaling...

It's "cackling," you 'cluck!'

[icruise]

Originally posted by AuPhalanx:
Icruise!

I feel like we are in one of Plato's Dialogues. The analogy is referring to the fact that people think Bush is stupid because he doesn't speak smoothly. That is all. It does not make any reference to their actions or deeds. Thus, it is a solid analogy,

A polished MBA is to an accomplished business person as a car salesman is to a seasoned mechanic. Both have their functions, but because one may have dirt underneath his fingernails does not make him or his ideas less valid or cogent.

Have fun... Tony.

Yes I understand. It's not exactly a subtle point you are making...

I'm just saying that, given all of the examples you might have used, those were not the best.

[itai195]

Originally posted by AuPhalanx:
I feel like we are in one of Plato's Dialogues. The analogy is referring to the fact that people think Bush is stupid because he doesn't speak smoothly. That is all. It does not make any reference to their actions or deeds. Thus, it is a solid analogy,

Isn't it important to have a commander in chief who comes across as intelligent?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Icruise:
... his "business empire" was not exactly the most successful in the world?

Who needs a business empire to be the most successful in the world? From al the accoutns of Bush I've read, all he wanted was to earn some money to buy a house and provide for his family before deciding whether or not to pursue public office.

If the man wanted to rule the world, he could have. Oh, wait, he does.

[Spliffdaddy]

After Kerry's dismal performance - I'm glad I'm not a Democrat.

Prediction: a 10 percentage point boost in the polls for Dubya.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by itai195:
Isn't it important to have a commander in chief who comes across as intelligent?

Anyone with half a brain would know that Yale/Harvard grads who go on to become President are intelligent.

[Jansar]

I cannot believe some of the things I'm reading. Did John Kerry get his ass handed to him or what? The only thing he looked good doing during the debate was helping his drunk wife off of the stage. Everything he said was either totally wrong or completely refuted by Bush. I don't care what some of you say, it's the truth. When he was asked to state specific reasons on handling Iraq, for example, he didn't give any, except, "I'll do a lot better than Bush." He's such a moron. He also resorts to personal attacks. Furthermore, he looks down on our troops, and I bet Bush was thinking, "How ****ing un-American!" I could even see Bush seething inside as he listened to Kerry ramble on about his so-called "tactics." Bush handled everything so generously. He's a really generous guy, and everything he says is normally positive and not on the offensive. I can't even believe Kerry's running for office...what a disaster it would be if he gets elected (but it won't happen, even Bush says so). I can be sympathetic to both parties, but look at this! Anyone who puts a vote for John Kerry on a ballot ought to be ashamed (or embarrassed).

[icruise]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
After Kerry's dismal performance - I'm glad I'm not a Democrat.

Prediction: a 10 percentage point boost in the polls for Dubya.

I'll take that bet. I say a 5 percent boost for Kerry, minimum.

[Spliffdaddy]

Yes, Kerry was handed his ass on a silver platter.

I'm speechless because Dubya was godlike in his disassembly of Kerry.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Timo:
NPR? Better not get too attached to this source of info, as your team wants it dismembered as irrelevant and a waste.

With all due respect to my team members, I would disagree with any such move. NPR is an important resource for information and POV's which deserve to be heard and are not presented by most commercial broadcasters.

It's a First Amendment kind of thing IMO as well as a personal thing.

KPLU-FM plays great jazz!

[icruise]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Yes, Kerry was handed his ass on a silver platter.

I'm speechless because Dubya was godlike in his disassembly of Kerry.

YOU'RE speechless?! I can't believe how some people can deny reality.

[AuPhalanx]

Originally posted by Icruise:
Yes I understand. It's not exactly a subtle point you are making...

I'm just saying that, given all of the examples you might have used, those were not the best.

Icruise!

I agree. That was not exactly my best work. Then again, this is a message board and not a Presidential debate. Since you understood my point, you see that who actually has an MBA is completely irrelevant in reference to the analogy, though.

Have fun... Tony.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Jansar:
I cannot believe some of the things I'm reading. Did John Kerry get his ass handed to him or what? The only thing he looked good doing during the debate was helping his drunk wife off of the stage. Everything he said was either totally wrong or completely refuted by Bush. I don't care what some of you say, it's the truth. When he was asked to state specific reasons on handling Iraq, for example, he didn't give any, except, "I'll do a lot better than Bush." He's such a moron. He also resorts to personal attacks. Furthermore, he looks down on our troops, and I bet Bush was thinking, "How ****ing un-American!" I could even see Bush seething inside as he listened to Kerry ramble on about his so-called "tactics." Bush handled everything so generously. He's a really generous guy, and everything he says is normally positive and not on the offensive. I can't even believe Kerry's running for office...what a disaster it would be if he gets elected (but it won't happen, even Bush says so). I can be sympathetic to both parties, but look at this! Anyone who puts a vote for John Kerry on a ballot ought to be ashamed (or embarrassed).

[MindFad]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
I expect full denial that any sort of spanking was dealt to Bush tonight.

I appears that fanatical and blind denial is setting in! (See: Jansar, Spliffdaddy.) How right you were! I predict 10 pages by the time I wake.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Jansar:
I can't even believe Kerry's running for office...what a disaster it would be if he gets elected (but it won't happen, even Bush says so). I can be sympathetic to both parties, but look at this! Anyone who puts a vote for John Kerry on a ballot ought to be ashamed (or embarrassed).

I can't believe we watched the same debate. But even Bush thinks Kerry won't win? You don't say... that's a big surprise!

BTW, Santana Row? I think I saw that place on fire from my office a couple years ago

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Anyone with half a brain would know that Yale/Harvard grads who go on to become President are intelligent.

I specifically referred to how he comes across. I'm not sure being a Yale/Harvard grad qualifies someone as being intelligent, though.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
After Kerry's dismal performance - I'm glad I'm not a Democrat.

I thought style-wise, he did good.

I mean, the man has had 20 years experience debating in the Senate, and before that he was an accomplished debater dating all the way back to his high school years. Anyone who expected a poor performance style-wise didn't do their research.

In terms of decisive stances on the issues, GWB has always held the advantage. But for John Q. Public, who pays no attention to daily politics and is undecided, Kerry's eloquence may have won a point or two. He looked and spoke well.

[Spliffdaddy]

I expected Dubya to lose outright. Strangely enough, I watched him completely and utterly OWN John Kerry.

We must have been watching two different debates - because there is zero doubt who came out on top. President Bush.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by itai195:
Isn't it important to have a commander in chief who comes across as intelligent?

Dan Rather COMES ACROSS as intelligent. But what speaks louder is a man's character and his message, however it's conveyed.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I expected Dubya to lose outright. Strangely enough, I watched him completely and utterly OWN John Kerry.

Goes to show the evils of the 'soft bigotry of lowered expectations'

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I expected Dubya to lose outright. Strangely enough, I watched him completely and utterly OWN John Kerry.

We must have been watching two different debates - because there is zero doubt who came out on top. President Bush.

[osiris]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
After Kerry's dismal performance - I'm glad I'm not a Democrat.

Prediction: a 10 percentage point boost in the polls for Dubya.

I wouldn't count on that based on this:

Polls asking who won the debate

MSNBC: Kerry 70% Bush 30%
CNN: Kerry 79% Bush 18%
CNBC: Kerry 76% Bush 24%

(FOX didn't post a poll)

[Jansar]

Originally posted by itai195:
I can't believe we watched the same debate. But even Bush thinks Kerry won't win? You don't say... that's a big surprise!

BTW, Santana Row? I think I saw that place on fire from my office a couple years ago

I don't know word for word, but during the debate, Bush said something along the lines of, "My people know that I'm a good leader and they will support me and vote for me again."

---

Santana Row is (I believe) two years old now. You're probably thinking of something else. It's in San Jose by the Valley Fair Mall...Santana Row's the street with all of those new stores and the nice cars parked on the sidewalk. The apartments are right above the stores. In fact, it's still in construction. It never was on fire. (Santana Row is where Santana Park used to be a couple years ago...Jim Joseph of Interland bought it and turned it into a very impressive development)

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
I thought style-wise, he did good.

I mean, the man has had 20 years experience debating in the Senate, and before that he was an accomplished debater dating all the way back to his high school years. Anyone who expected a poor performance style-wise didn't do their research.

In terms of decisive stances on the issues, GWB has always held the advantage. But for John Q. Public, who pays no attention to daily politics and is undecided, Kerry's eloquence may have won a point or two. He looked and spoke well.

I'm listening to C-Span's streaming after coverage and Karl Rove pointed out something I missed: Kerry still wasn't able to erase his inconsistencies.

[Jansar]

Originally posted by osiris:
I wouldn't count on that based on this:

Polls asking who won the debate

CNN: Kerry 79% Bush 18%

Well, CNN stands for "Communist News Network." I'm sure they would have put Stalin before Bush too.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I expected Dubya to lose outright. Strangely enough, I watched him completely and utterly OWN John Kerry.

We must have been watching two different debates - because there is zero doubt who came out on top. President Bush.

We watched the same debate. I was just saying that if one had no political compass and was unaware of Kerry's previous, multiple stances (ie. this was the first they have seen of the Bush-Kerry race), that Kerry's presentation was smooth.

As a passionate politico, however, understanding of the words spoken by Bush and Kerry... without a doubt Bush had a decisive edge. But a good amount of people don't follow this stuff with the same intensity as I.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Jansar:
Santana Row is (I believe) two years old now. You're probably thinking of something else. It's in San Jose by the Valley Fair Mall...Santana Row's the street with all of those new stores and the nice cars parked on the sidewalk. The apartments are right above the stores. In fact, it's still in construction. It never was on fire. (Santana Row is where Santana Park used to be a couple years ago...Jim Joseph of Interland bought it and turned it into a very impressive development)

Santana Row was on fire during construction two years ago. You may have missed it if you weren't in the area but it was a big story. Nice place to live though, I'm jealous

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Jansar:
I don't know word for word, but during the debate, Bush said something along the lines of, "My people know that I'm a good leader and they will support me and vote for me again."

---

Santana Row is (I believe) two years old now. You're probably thinking of something else. It's in San Jose by the Valley Fair Mall...Santana Row's the street with all of those new stores and the nice cars parked on the sidewalk. The apartments are right above the stores. In fact, it's still in construction. It never was on fire. (Santana Row is where Santana Park used to be a couple years ago...Jim Joseph of Interland bought it and turned it into a very impressive development)

Could he be thinking of Cannery Row?

[Jansar]

Originally posted by itai195:
Santana Row was on fire during construction two years ago. You may have missed it if you weren't in the area but it was a big story. Nice place to live though, I'm jealous

You must be right then. I was just starting SCU two years ago. I had no idea! But either way, yes I am a very lucky bastard.

[goMac]

Having been sitting in a autotorium full of college students (mixed pretty evenly, its a catholic campus) the most common response from the audience was laughter at Bush... There was some muted cheering at some points for Bush, but the strongest cheering was for Kerry. Many people found Kerry's jokes funny. About halfway most of the Bush supporters began to leave, and there wasn't much cheering for Bush past that point.

It was mostly agreed all around Bush got owned. The online polls seem to agree.

Kerry needs to be more aggressive though on getting responses back against Bush. Towards the end he was getting better.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by osiris:
I wouldn't count on that based on this:

Polls asking who won the debate

MSNBC: Kerry 70% Bush 30%
CNN: Kerry 79% Bush 18%
CNBC: Kerry 76% Bush 24%

(FOX didn't post a poll)

I'm surprised it's even that close, but let's see.

I could play the ... hmm, how about the "liberal media" card? I could play that one.

Or ... hmm, let's see ... liberals are fancy pants elitists, thus more computer savvy, thus the Kerry leaning!

Of course, I could also play the "FOX is fair and balanced" card, which is obviously why they didn't post a poll.

Or something about commies. Kids are throwing that one around lately.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by osiris:
I wouldn't count on that based on this:

Polls asking who won the debate

Most Bush supporters have to go to work tomorrow. They don't have time to play around on late-night web polls. They know the votes that count are those cast in early November.

I'm curious - of our conservative loungers here, who has gone to one of these sites and voted? I haven't.

[Mithras]

Well, first of all I am of course a Kerry supporter.
That said, I do think Kerry will get a boost out of this debate. Kerry's main accomplishment was looking solid, "presidential", collected, and firm. After all the ads and spin about his being a flip-flopper, indecisive, and weak, -- some of which I was starting to believe -- I think most middle-of-the-road folk will be surprised just to see him have a backbone.

Kerry's flaws were in doing a goofy smile while Bush was talking, and not repeating himself enough. His answers were clear and consistent, but did not "hammer home" a message.

Bush started out looking lost. He was clearly on the defensive and rattled for most of the talk. His worst flaw was that he ceded the initiative to Kerry. He finished strongly, though, and when he hit his groove with repeated messages -- "Saddam Hussein was a threat" -- "A free Iraq will make America safer" -- he delivered them well.

For people just tuning into the election, though, I definitely think this is a Kerry win, by appearing presidential and solid.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
But what speaks louder is a man's character and his message, however it's conveyed.

Two weeks ago you called Bush an incompetent liar. He must be a character flip-flopper.

[Spliffdaddy]

OK, then.

So where does Kerry stand on the war in Iraq?

What is his plan?

If kerry did a good job tonight, that should be an easy question to answer.

[Solomon Grundy]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Yes, Kerry was handed his ass on a silver platter.

I'm speechless because Dubya was godlike in his disassembly of Kerry.

LOL! Even if I was a Bush supporter I couldn't go that far. I didn't realize that god was a stuttered and stared blankly into space.

[icruise]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Most Bush supporters have to go to work tomorrow. They don't have time to play around on late-night web polls.

Riiiight. Well, shall we meet here tomorrow evening and see what the polls show?

[goMac]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
OK, then.

So where does Kerry stand on the war in Iraq?

What is his plan?

If kerry did a good job tonight, that should be an easy question to answer.

Thats pretty easy to answer. He said he plans to start withdrawing troops after 6 months, quickly train everybody needed in Iraq for security, get elections done, and allow Iraq to supply its own security. This would be achieved by bringing in support from other countries.

Or did you not follow that?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by goMac:
Thats pretty easy to answer. He said he plans to start withdrawing troops after 6 months, quickly train everybody needed in Iraq for security, get elections done, and allow Iraq to supply its own security. This would be achieved by bringing in support from other countries.

Or did you not follow that?

Oh, I see.

So just after Kerry called the war "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time" he's gonna ask other countries for help?

I'm sure they'll trip over themselves in an effort to help.

PS, maybe you should have paid more attention...because that's not what Kerry said.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Icruise:
Riiiight. Well, shall we meet here tomorrow evening and see what the polls show?

Sure, if you want... if who won the debate is that important to you.

I'd prefer to meet the day after election day, however.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
OK, then.

So where does Kerry stand on the war in Iraq?

What is his plan?

If kerry did a good job tonight, that should be an easy question to answer.

So you didn't watch the debate or listen to anything Kerry has said since the beginning of his campaign, huh?

Are you serious?

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
So where does Kerry stand on the war in Iraq?

What is his plan?

Fair question. What's Bush's?