[Quadzmodo]

The way not to fix it is exactly the way President Bush and his cronies are thinking of implimenting the voucher program. The program has been a huge failure here in Florida. It's responsible for the lowest moral rate of teachers in years. Teachers quitting the profession after years of dedicated and inspired teaching.

I know that our educational system has been lacking for years and I entirely agree that it's in major need of upgrading, but to take random students out of schools, many times the cream of the crop and place them in private institutions in order to raise state regulated test scores in the schools is ludicris. I don't believe republicans have taken a look at why schools are failing: 1) Aging workforce 2) not enough new teachers taking the aging and retires position 3) dismal working conditions and often time reductions in benefits at least here in the republican stronghold here in the Florida panhandle.

Many advocates of the voucher program have now turned against it . The voucher program was developed to stimilate competion between schools. Here in Florida it not only fosters that competition but also the fear of schools loosing much need funding. The state treatens to reduce funding and combines schools here if the administration doesn't increase the students test scores.

I am glad to say that the test scores of the students in our city have increased, but students have lost such classes as music, art, band, history classes, and many of courses that didn't deal directly with math & science. I can remember some of the best times I had in grade school being during music when I learn how to play trumbone, or in art where I made an ash tray for my grandfather whom ironically died of cancer 2yrs ago. I can remember the smile he had when I gave him something that was unique. I'd hate for my child to grow up in a system that only emphasized the 3R's but not creativity.

Oh yeah, back to the Bush model of academic system. Our pattern was taken directly from the Texas model developed and implimented by then Govenor G.W. Bush. Jeb has admittedly lost the confidence of the people of Florida, for numerous reason. I do admit he's gaining in popularity now that he's at odds with his brother over drilling for oil within eyesight of Florida beaches.

The reason I made this post is to let people whom are unaware of just what is instore for our educational system nationally if this bill passes. Students whom are articulate will be made to become uniform and not have an outlet for their individuality. I chose to forgo a lucrative (starting in the 200k range) law career to go back to school in order to become certified to teach here in my hometown (about 38k). I figure I'll make a difference and enjoy the surroundings and laid back atmosphere of Pensacola instead of the hustle and bustle of a high priced attorney.

[typoon]

One thing that needs to be done is Parents need to be involved with there kids school and other stuff lke time on the internet. Firstly the parents may learn something from the kids (especially about the computer and the internet) Second I think the Parents should have the right to choose where there kids go to school.
Why should a child in the inner city where drugs and gangs and a teacher who doesn't really want to be there HAVE to go to that school?
Should a child in the inner city not have the same right to go to a good private school or public school (there are some that are very good) if they feel the school they are currently attending doesn't as they say "cut the mustard?"
I don't know how it works in Florida, New York City is trying to do something like that as well, they are also trying to get a merit pay program in place (which btw I think is a good idea).
Why are the teachers leaving? Is it because they don't make enough money? Is it because they dislike the voucher program beacause they can't cut it anymore and they know that if students stay in the school it doesn't matter to them what the student learns because they are already tenured?
I would hate also for my child to know the 3R's and have no creativity as well but I would also hate for my child to NOT get a good education. There is nothing wrong with competition. Much like Business If you can't cut it then you fail. It's a teacher's job to teach the 3R's but to also inspire creativity in the students as well. Schools don't teach students, Teachers TEACH students. A good teacher to me is someone who can get you to learn what they are teaching yet make the class interesting and spur my imagination. Many times teachers don't do that they just tell students to read out of a book and they just go over the stuff in the book which is all fine and good but how does that teach creativity and free thinking? Why not when a student asks a question ask the question back to him and have hiim try to figure it out. Don't get me wrong, if he/she is having trouble getting it help them out. teach them ways to understand it.
I feel a creative teacher will spur ceative students.

[gyc]

I think our schools are pretty damned good. I got a well-balanced education with plenty of time for extracurriculars such as chess or basketball. Compared with my cousins in Taiwan who have to go to "cram school" everyday after school for several hours and have to do hours and hours of homework, no wonder they get better test scores, they study almost exclusively for testing!

[AlbertWu]

It drills it into their heads.


and makes no time for other thoughts, hence the entirely conformist society.

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Albert Wu
WebMaster, Alnora Design

[typoon]

Originally posted by gyc:
I think our schools are pretty damned good. I got a well-balanced education with plenty of time for extracurriculars such as chess or basketball. Compared with my cousins in Taiwan who have to go to "cram school" everyday after school for several hours and have to do hours and hours of homework, no wonder they get better test scores, they study almost exclusively for testing!

Don't get me wrong I think our schools are good. Just some of them aren't

[BRussell]

Originally posted by typoon:
Why are the teachers leaving? Is it because they don't make enough money? Is it because they dislike the voucher program beacause they can't cut it anymore and they know that if students stay in the school it doesn't matter to them what the student learns because they are already tenured?

I hate this "we need better teachers" idea. We need better students. It's a cop out to say it's the teacher's fault. "Those damn lazy, wealthy teachers." Hurrrummmphh.

Testing: Texas' test scores have gone up and up. Problem is, the SAT scores have remained the same. How can this be? They just teach the students how to take the tests. Their schools are like Sylvan test-prep courses now, and they've figured out how to raise students' test scores. But they're not becoming better educated.

[tie]

Teachers need to make more money. Janitors make more than teachers. But I guess we don't expect the janitors to be idealists that will work for peanuts?

Vouchers do not help inner city kids go to private schools. They help subsidize middle- and upper-class kids go to private schools. A $1500 voucher isn't going to get you very far when private high school starts at 12K a year (where I live).

[MacmanX]

So,
Are these schools required to conform to all laws regarding the disabled? If not, then why on earth should they be receiving public funding. And what about children with developmental, emotional, or learning disabilities? Public schools are required to make accommodations. In fact, so is everything which receives public funding. Why should I pay for the rich to send their kids to schools to be apart from the poor, the disabled, immigrants, or whatever they perceive as undesirable. I will not pay for segregation!

If you want to make our schools better, perhaps you should educate yourself on the issue first. Then you might see that it is politics which is ruining schools in the States not the lack of competition. Capitalism will always fail as a matter of governing public services. How long after implementing school vouchers will it be before we begin experiencing our first rolling blackouts of education? Don't let the rich and the politicians fool you, they just want to take your money and give it to their bourgeois constituents.

Cheers!

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10:00 conoc� a Apple. 10:30 trabaj� con Apple. Apple Computer�

[This message has been edited by MacmanX (edited 05-24-2001).]

[Quadzmodo]

Originally posted by typoon:
One thing that needs to be done is Parents need to be involved with there kids school and other stuff lke time on the internet. Firstly the parents may learn something from the kids (especially about the computer and the internet) Second I think the Parents should have the right to choose where there kids go to school.

I
agree with you wholeheartedly parents need to be more involved in their childrens life.

[/b]
Why should a child in the inner city where drugs and gangs and a teacher who doesn't really want to be there HAVE to go to that school? [/b]

Do you think a uniform and a bible *nothing against the Christian faith* will keep a student from joining a gang? I mean some kids will find religion others will probably use the bible as a paper weight. I'm not against private schools, but I am against sending students to private schools on public taxes.


Should a child in the inner city not have the same right to go to a good private school or public school (there are some that are very good) if they feel the school they are currently attending doesn't as they say "cut the mustard?"
Sure they should, if they're parents could afford it or if they earn a scholarship, not on tax dollars when my children are attending public schools.

Why are the teachers leaving? Is it because they don't make enough money? Is it because they dislike the voucher program beacause they can't cut it anymore and they know that if students stay in the school it doesn't matter to them what the student learns because they are already tenured?

Teachers are leaving because they are underpaid only about 19k starting out and not appreciated. Vouchers are a slap in the face to the teachers and students whom spend hours after school unpaid & unpressured whom spend time studying and tutoring.

I would hate also for my child to know the 3R's and have no creativity as well but I would also hate for my child to NOT get a good education.
Education is important but so is creativity. Remember without dreams ntohing becomes of reality. that's going to be my motto

There is nothing wrong with competition. Much like Business If you can't cut it then you fail.

So let's see if a school fails to meet certain standards, the best students are removed and funding is cut. How exactly does this help the students who have to deal with the cuts?

It's a teacher's job to teach the 3R's but to also inspire creativity in the students as well. Schools don't teach students, Teachers TEACH students

It's hard to encourage creativity when you're preoccupied with making sure quota's are met so that the school doesn't suffer. To me a good teacher looks does their best to make sure everyone benefits and no one suffers. Because as with our educational system when the school suffers teachers leave and get jobs elsewhere. That's why the voucher doesn't work because it hurts the students and promotes job hopping amongst teachers.


[This message has been edited by Quadzmodo (edited 05-24-2001).]

[yoyo52]

BRussel is right. My son is now in 6th grade and, almost without a single exception, he has had absolutely wonderful, dedicated, inventive teachers.

The problem is the students, but (IMHO) in a more complicated way than simply to say we need better students. The way that our society values things has made it almost impossible for education to be perceived by kids as valuable in itself. That's not just something that's happened in the last 20 years--if you don't believe me, go read some Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer. "Book larnin'" has never been particularly valued in American culture, and those in America who did/do value it are considered weird, strange, and generally un-American.

That's not to say that America has lacked practical inventiveness or a truly wonderful educational system. It's just very tough to be a "real" American and also be learned. So teachers have to overcome social expectations in order to begin to reach kids.

As for test scores and other such stuff--I pay them next to no heed at all. A multiple-choice standardized test proves almost nothing at all about a kid's intelligence or native wit. I also believe that the decline in standardized test scores over the last 30 or 40 years proves nothing at all about American education except that a larger percentage of high school kids take the SAT now than was the case in 1960. It's probably hard to remember, or to imagine, but it was only 40 years ago that colleges assumed that a vast majority of high school graduates were not "college material." The assumption now is exactly the reverse.

Now I really don't think that everyone who takes the SAT or everyone who goes to a college actually should go to college. In my book, neither colleges nor high schools are or should be places where students are trained to do a particular task. And yet many high schools see themselves as training grounds for industry, and many kids go to college expecting that training is what they will get. If they don't discover what actually happens in a college, those people flunk out pretty quickly.

It used to be that training was performed in apprenticeships and other business/occupational settings. Ideally in such a setting the value of an education could be demonstrated by its making the student generalize his or her training so as to see the larger picture of the society s/he inhabits. It's too bad that those practices have disappeared.

One more thing. The difference between the way the more affluent suburban schools in my area approach their curricula and the way that the inner city approaches its curriculum is something of a revelation. Those suburban kids are taught, not trained, and are part of the tiny percentage of high school graduates who would have gone to college in 1960. I would bet you all the money in my pocket right now that the SAT scores of those kids are as high as, if not higher than the SAT scores of kids in 1960.

Solutions? Make sure that all schools teach rather than train. At the same time, make sure that students who want to be trained in some skill have the facilities for such training in an explicitly business/industrial setting. Make sure that colleges are available for all students, regardless of age--so that the kid who flunks out in his/her first semester can, if it comes to it, return five or ten years later and get what s/he is now ready for. And most difficult of all, work towards making learning something that kids don't have to be ashamed of.

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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[elppa cam]

Sorry, Quadzmodo... a teacher is the last person I'd listen to... And that's the problem...

(thank you US Teachers for spell checkers!)

[TNproud2b]

at $19k/yr it has been my experience that a lot of teachers are overpaid.

The problem is with the teacher's union. They make it impossible to weed out (fire) underperforming teachers.

Unions are legalized extortion and have no place in public education (or anywhere in America, dagnabit).

If you want a union job, don't be a cop or schoolteacher working for the state. my opinion, and a damn good one I might add.

[TNproud2b]

one more thing....


The teaching profession has, historically, never been a great paying profession. Why do so many people take a job as a teacher then complain about the pay? I knew teachers were paid very little since I was about 6 years old. Sorry, but you sound pretty silly complaining about something that was an accepted fact BEFORE you became involved in it.

Why don't intelligent hard-working folks strive to work at the Mc Donald's drive-thru window?? BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT DOESN'T PAY MUCH. The same is true about teaching, yet some people find this a mystery even past the age of 6.

[Quadzmodo]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
at $19k/yr it has been my experience that a lot of teachers are overpaid.
The problem is with the teacher's union. They make it impossible to weed out (fire) underperforming teachers.
Unions are legalized extortion and have no place in public education (or anywhere in America, dagnabit).
If you want a union job, don't be a cop or schoolteacher working for the state. my opinion, and a damn good one I might add.

I can see either you have no children or you have no idea how the public school system functions. The teachers union & cops union are two enterily different organizations. Allow me to shed some light on a teachers union. They lobby for better pay, good benefits, and a voice in the school system instead of being dictated to.

They are not allowed to strike and if they do they committ a felony to strike. They are not given the same opportunity to simply refuse to work. That's socialistic in my opinion, that's why I took the technology job instead of a classroom.

I passed on a 200k plus career to make 38k. The 200k was 100X's more than a starting teacher makes. Poverty is 14k so these people aren't doing it for the money and aren't overpaid. Maybe you just don't care and for that I don't fault you. But if you have children in public school you should open your eyes.

[gyc]

Raising teaching pay would be a great way to attract new talent into teaching. Obviously this isn't true for everyone, but at many colleges, the standards of admission into the education curriculum is *a lot* lower than admission into other curriculums, not even mentioning engineering! Therefore, I see a lot of hard partying frat boys or sorority girls who are education majors. So we do need to raise the salaries a bit so that at least we could get some, for example, competent technology instructors into schools instead of them heading out into industry. Now, I am not saying that the pay needs to be competitive to industry, but it needs to be high enough to attract someone who perhaps has an interest in teaching to have them even consider going into education.

[Scott_H]

I can't stand to listen to teachers bitch. I wish I had a job that was half days and the summer off. I hate it when they bitch about having to get a summer job to make more money. Poor baby has to work for a living? So their 18k is not 18k total money for the year. It's 18k plus what they make over the summer. Over the years they get more and more money. They only way I'd be for paying teachers more is to get better people teaching.

I see teachers on strike all the time on TeeVee. In the middle of the school year. Kids out of school and all that. They have a lot of power. Their union is one of the most powerful in the country. They fight school reform at every turn. I don't fight for teachers because they have a union to do it for them. Want more money? Talk to your union.

[Scott_H]

Here. Read this to get an idea how silly unized teachers can be. This may be an extreem example but it makes the point.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95000391

In his first days as a teacher, John Fager attended a meeting with the principal of his school in New York City's borough of Queens. He sat there, interested in hearing the principal lead a discussion of school goals. Then, right in the middle of the meeting, half the teachers stood up and left. Even odder, no one seemed surprised. The principal kept on talking as if nothing had happened.

Later, Mr. Fager learned that, under their union contract, teachers had the right to spend no more than 40 minutes a week in staff meetings. Once the allotted time was up, off the teachers went, even though their discussion was far from concluded.

Great. Glad to see those teachers are so committed.

[art jrk]

How many of you responding are actually teachers or related to one? Yes, they enter teaching for the love of teaching and not the money. But they also expect to be recognised as the professionals that they are. Not only by the administration and school board but by the parents and community.

scott-h... if you only knew the hours after school each day they put in as well as weekends. I understand all professionals have to put in this sort of effort. But that goes along with my statement that they should be treated as "professionals"



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art jrk

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by art jrk:
How many of you responding are actually teachers or related to one?

My sister in law teachers and my father was on a school board.

Yes, they enter teaching for the love of teaching and not the money. But they also expect to be recognised as the professionals that they are. Not only by the administration and school board but by the parents and community.

They are. That's why they have a contract. Besides we all feel underappreciated in some way. Get a shrink if you have to.

scott-h... if you only knew the hours after school each day they put in as well as weekends. I understand all professionals have to put in this sort of effort. But that goes along with my statement that they should be treated as "professionals"

Maybe they should talk to their union reps about that? I forgot to mention that teachers are guaranteed to get large amounts of vacation around every major holiday. Poor babies. I'm crying for them.

[typoon]

Originally posted by BRussell:

Originally posted by typoon:
Why are the teachers leaving? Is it because they don't make enough money? Is it because they dislike the voucher program beacause they can't cut it anymore and they know that if students stay in the school it doesn't matter to them what the student learns because they are already tenured?

I hate this "we need better teachers" idea. We need better students. It's a cop out to say it's the teacher's fault. "Those damn lazy, wealthy teachers." Hurrrummmphh.

Testing: Texas' test scores have gone up and up. Problem is, the SAT scores have remained the same. How can this be? They just teach the students how to take the tests. Their schools are like Sylvan test-prep courses now, and they've figured out how to raise students' test scores. But they're not becoming better educated.

Better students also reflects Parents as well. Parents these days seem too busy to even care what there kids are doing which leads to why many students are the way they are in the school.

[yoyo52]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
I can't stand to listen to teachers bitch. I wish I had a job that was half days and the summer off. I hate it when they bitch about having to get a summer job to make more money. Poor baby has to work for a living? So their 18k is not 18k total money for the year. It's 18k plus what they make over the summer. Over the years they get more and more money. They only way I'd be for paying teachers more is to get better people teaching.

I see teachers on strike all the time on TeeVee. In the middle of the school year. Kids out of school and all that. They have a lot of power. Their union is one of the most powerful in the country. They fight school reform at every turn. I don't fight for teachers because they have a union to do it for them. Want more money? Talk to your union.

The degree of misunderstanding and misinformation in this post is just remarkable. No doubt there are teachers who do indeed work half a day--but a teacher's work does not stop when the little darlings leave the classroom any more than a bank teller's job stops when the doors close at 3. If you've never graded, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Summers are nice because you can pace your work at your own rate--but it's not a three month vacation even if you don't get a summer job to make ends meet.

A cousin of mine, who headed one of NYC's government departments, decided one semester to take on a part time job teaching urban planning at Columbia. She ended the semester vowing never again to do it because it was the hardest, most time consuming job she had ever had.

And that was with very capable, top-of-the-line students.

Put that in your hookah and see if you come up with a more realistic view of teaching.


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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[yoyo52]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
Here. Read this to get an idea how silly unized teachers can be. This may be an extreem example but it makes the point.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95000391
Great. Glad to see those teachers are so committed.

The assumption you and the novice teacher both make is taht the principal had something worth while to say that would take more than 40 minutes. Somehow I doubt that.

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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[MacmanX]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
I can't stand to listen to teachers bitch. I wish I had a job that was half days and the summer off. I hate it when they bitch about having to get a summer job to make more money. Poor baby has to work for a living? So their 18k is not 18k total money for the year. It's 18k plus what they make over the summer. Over the years they get more and more money. They only way I'd be for paying teachers more is to get better people teaching.

I see teachers on strike all the time on TeeVee. In the middle of the school year. Kids out of school and all that. They have a lot of power. Their union is one of the most powerful in the country. They fight school reform at every turn. I don't fight for teachers because they have a union to do it for them. Want more money? Talk to your union.

What on earth happened to you to make you take this completely blind and ridiculous opinion. Teachers deserve as much respect, understanding, and praise as anyone in this country. In fact, there would be no society without teachers. There would be no doctors, no computers, and no ignorant moderators making angry strikes against teachers.

I have no clue what problem you have with teacher's unions. Unless you are a brainwashed Rush Limbaugh or Neil Bortz fan, surely you can not believe that people will be treated fairly by the elite ruling class of this country. I would like to see teachers treated better, paid more, and given a more sane workload (instead of being bashed by the ignorant, paid less and less each year thanks to inflation, and having more kids dumped on them at the same time that tests have become the only important thing.) If it takes work actions to reach these goals, I say go for it.

Scott_H, if you really think teachers are that bad, why don't you stop writing in protest of the teacher who taught you how to.

Oh, and no one has answered me yet; Why do I have to pay for the rich's new scheme of segregation?

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10:00 conoc� a Apple. 10:30 trabaj� con Apple. Apple Computer�

[This message has been edited by MacmanX (edited 05-24-2001).]

[art jrk]

well Scott

For a moderator you seem to have forgotten how to carry on a simple debate without lowering yourself to personal jabs and meaningless quibbling.

If your beef is with Unions so be it. I'm not big on them either, but they do serve a purpose. If you want to discuss that start a new thread.

First of all. I'm not a teacher, but am married to one. Just yesterday she was recognized as one of the Outstanding Teachers of the Year in our community. She has routinely received "Outstanding" evaluations yearly and just last year was rated as "Exemplary" She is starting Grad school to study adolescent literacy. She has been teaching Learning Disabled children on the middle school level for 15 years. I could go on and on about her credentials, but I won't. Suffice it to say I can see first hand what a teacher does and how the community responds.

In the 10 months of work each year she puts in more hours than I do in 12. BTW, I own a graphic design firm.

Now back to the topic:

I agree that schools are teaching to the tests, but why?
People say that the quality of education is dropping in American schools. So we say let's test them now then test them later to see if if there is any improvement. But the only "fair" way is do it with "objective" standardized tests. The problem is knowledge is not "objectively" measurable. It's how you apply that knowledge that matters.

Another problems schools face these days are overly aggresive parents who come in demanding "The Best" for their kid. They yell at the teachers and administrators. When they don't get their way they sue. And what does that teach the child? From then on out if the kid doesn't like something or gets in trouble, he just waits for mom and dad to come and bail him out.

Parents need to be involved, but not in charge. The teachers and administrators "Know" what they are doing. Let them do it.



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art jrk

[BRussell]

Originally posted by yoyo52:
The assumption you and the novice teacher both make is taht the principal had something worth while to say that would take more than 40 minutes. Somehow I doubt that.

Haha! Exactly. People who are so against teacher's unions have to realize who they are FOR, by default: School administrators. These people don't educate, they talk about education. Their goal is to constantly justify themselves by reorganizing and tinkering, to increase their pay (usually three times as much as the teachers who do the real work), and talk and talk and talk about their plans amongst themselves.

Here's their motto - Down with teaching, up with bureaucracy!

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by yoyo52:
The assumption you and the novice teacher both make is taht the principal had something worth while to say that would take more than 40 minutes. Somehow I doubt that.

Tell ya what? Next time your in a meeting with your boss get and walk out in the middle of it. See how long you until you get fired.

[yoyo52]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Haha! Exactly. People who are so against teacher's unions have to realize who they are FOR, by default: School administrators. These people don't educate, they talk about education. Their goal is to constantly justify themselves by reorganizing and tinkering, to increase their pay (usually three times as much as the teachers who do the real work), and talk and talk and talk about their plans amongst themselves.

Here's their motto - Down with teaching, up with bureaucracy!

How true that is. Nothing like an "educator" to have no idea at all about what teaching is all about. The sad thing is that the only way that teachers can go up the salary ladder is by becoming administrators.

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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[yoyo52]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
Tell ya what? Next time your in a meeting with your boss get and walk out in the middle of it. See how long you until you get fired.

Happens I teach in a college and really have no boss to speak of other than my students, my colleagues, my discipline, and my research agenda. I know that it's hard to understand, but coercive models of employment really have no place in education. My conscience is far more effective a motivator than any dean, vice-president, or president. However, to the extent that education has entered into a business-model kind of framework, teachers must fight coercion with the tools given them by the same business model, namely unions. You want to get rid of teachers' unions? Get rid of the business model.

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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by yoyo52:
Happens I teach in a college and really have no boss to speak of other than my students, my colleagues, my discipline, and my research agenda.

Then you are the exception to the rule. Enjoy your ivory tower.

I know that it's hard to understand, but coercive models of employment really have no place in education. My conscience is far more effective a motivator than any dean, vice-president, or president. However, to the extent that education has entered into a business-model kind of framework, teachers must fight coercion with the tools given them by the same business model, namely unions. You want to get rid of teachers' unions? Get rid of the business model.

Maybe? I don't know. Please explain to me on what planet is it correct or polite to get up and walk out when someone is talking? Am I to take it that those teacher walked out in protest of "coercive models of employment"? Or were they just being rude?


Look people. The union fights change at every turn. The only want more money and more job security. They want it so that no teacher ever get fired not matter how bad they are. Teachers have a very powerful union to fight for them.

[This message has been edited by Scott_H (edited 05-24-2001).]

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Quadzmodo:
The way not to fix it is exactly the way President Bush and his cronies are thinking of implimenting the voucher program. The program has been a huge failure here in Florida. It's responsible for the lowest moral rate of teachers in years. Teachers quitting the profession after years of dedicated and inspired teaching.
<trim>
The reason I made this post is to let people whom are unaware of just what is instore for our educational system nationally if this bill passes. Students whom are articulate will be made to become uniform and not have an outlet for their individuality. I chose to forgo a lucrative (starting in the 200k range) law career to go back to school in order to become certified to teach here in my hometown (about 38k). I figure I'll make a difference and enjoy the surroundings and laid back atmosphere of Pensacola instead of the hustle and bustle of a high priced attorney.

People should also be aware that the Ed bill that passed yesterday did NOT include vouchers...

Personally, I think that vouchers aren't the magic pill. Who knows what is? I think they were worth experimenting with, but if they don't work, repeal the law!

One thing I DO know though, the solution is NOT to continue to throw more and more money and resources at eductation until the money is spent on STUDENTS AND TEACHERS instead of administration costs.

We've been putting more and more money into education for 20+ years, yet the schools' quality has not increased. Money needs to make it to the classroom. We have to make it worthwhile for quality people to get into teaching.

Parents need to be more involved. That's a no brainer.



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Dave Simon
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Windows are easily broken.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by elppa cam:
Sorry, Quadzmodo... a teacher is the last person I'd listen to... And that's the problem...

(thank you US Teachers for spell checkers!)

I've just kind of been lurking here. THis is one of those issues that I get way too passionate about. elppa: what is the issue you have with your teachers? Of course, when you are in the middle of it, teacher bashing is what you do. In high school I (and I am sure, most of us) did the same. But. Take a second to think about what they do. NO ONE teaches for the money. No one becomes a teacher (or at least stays one) because of June, July and August. No one does it because they relish the thought of being abused by parents and targeted by politicians. No one teaches because it is easy. Think about it: people teach because, no matter how it may seem to you, they care about you and your future. Seeing a student strive is incredible. Seeing a student succeed at whatever is one of the best gifts you can get. The motivation of a good teacher is... the student. No ulterior motives.
The current trend toward "making teachers accountable" will do one thing: terrify teachers into teaching to the tests. Is that education? No. It is programming. Any good teacher wants to teach you HOW to think- not WHAT to think.
Admission: all of this dawned on me only when I became a teacher. Teaching classes. Advising students. Coaching. Running a dorm. Politics of education. Policies. Disciplining. Regular 15 hour days. Returning from a study session at 10 PM to prep the following day's classes. The headaches and heartaches (it is hard to disallow personal interest in what you do as a teacher). Best and worst job I've ever had. I have no doubt that I will go back to it in a professional way at some point.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by BRussell:

Originally posted by yoyo52:
The assumption you and the novice teacher both make is taht the principal had something worth while to say that would take more than 40 minutes. Somehow I doubt that.

Haha! Exactly. People who are so against teacher's unions have to realize who they are FOR, by default: School administrators. These people don't educate, they talk about education. Their goal is to constantly justify themselves by reorganizing and tinkering, to increase their pay (usually three times as much as the teachers who do the real work), and talk and talk and talk about their plans amongst themselves.

Here's their motto - Down with teaching, up with bureaucracy!

I believe that BRussell just stated EXACTLY what needs to be said...

<note to self>
On May 24 at 10:11 AM BRussell and acctually agreed on something, for once!
</note to self>



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Dave Simon
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Windows are easily broken.

[maxelson]

Scott- you have a truly mistaken view of teachers. You talk of getting up and leaving a meeting with the boss. I've done it. To actually go and tutor a student. To deal with an issue in the dorm. Always something to do with my students. This was the same for almost ALL of the teachers I've known. When was the last time your boss fired you for getting up and leaving a meeting because you had some vital job function to perform? Mine EXPECTS me to leave if I have a client that needs tending. Or if a server is misbehaving.
What exactly is it that you think teachers do after they leave the school? Let me tell you: they WORK on more school stuff.
Are their bad teachers? Of course. There are also bad bus drivers, politicians and technicians, etc.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by maxelson:
Scott- you have a truly mistaken view of teachers. You talk of getting up and leaving a meeting with the boss. I've done it. To actually go and tutor a student. To deal with an issue in the dorm. Always something to do with my students. This was the same for almost ALL of the teachers I've known. When was the last time your boss fired you for getting up and leaving a meeting because you had some vital job function to perform? Mine EXPECTS me to leave if I have a client that needs tending. Or if a server is misbehaving.
What exactly is it that you think teachers do after they leave the school? Let me tell you: they WORK on more school stuff.
Are their bad teachers? Of course. There are also bad bus drivers, politicians and technicians, etc.

Please stop protecting those rude teachers in the above anecdote. Do you really think they got up and left to go do something vital? Or was it just a bunch of union goons "working to the rule".

When you get up and leave do you say "Hey sorry, I have a meeting with a student." or "The dorm's on fire. Can we do this another time?". I doubt you get up mid sentence and walk out with out a polite word.

[This message has been edited by Scott_H (edited 05-24-2001).]

[maxelson]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
Please stop protecting those rude teachers in the above anecdote. Do you really think they got up and left to go do something vital? Or was it just a bunch of union goons "working to the rule".

When you get up and leave do you say "Hey sorry, I have a meeting with a student." or "The dorm's on fire. Can we do this another time?". I doubt you get up mid sentence and walk out with out a polite word.

[This message has been edited by Scott_H (edited 05-24-2001).]

It is clear you are speaking with zero experience. You have no idea nor do you care what we do. I am quite sure you will be one of those parents teachers live to deal with. Get an accurate idea of what we do and then come back when you have a base in reality. I have respect for opinions that have some kind of backup. Yours, once again, has none. I'm disappointed.


[This message has been edited by maxelson (edited 05-24-2001).]

[Quadzmodo]

Originally posted by MacmanX:

Oh, and no one has answered me yet; Why do I have to pay for the rich's new scheme of segregation?

I wholeheartedly agree that the proposed educational package harbors segregational components. You won't get an arguement out of me, but you will recieve my support.

[Quadzmodo]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
Please stop protecting those rude teachers in the above anecdote. Do you really think they got up and left to go do something vital? Or was it just a bunch of union goons "working to the rule".
When you get up and leave do you say "Hey sorry, I have a meeting with a student." or "The dorm's on fire. Can we do this another time?". I doubt you get up mid sentence and walk out with out a polite word.
[This message has been edited by Scott_H (edited 05-24-2001).]

Please understand that I don't agree with what the teachers did, but I do believe they are justified in doing it. If a prinicipals calls a meeting after and a teacher has previous engagements there is no reason why the announcement made by the prinicipal couldn't be emailed or circulated in a memo. Teachers are people too. They aren't made of steel, their feelings do get hurt, they get tired, and sometimes they do crack and fight the educational beaucracy. All professions have rights and the union only concentrates the many to form a louder voice.

As it stands now, the teachers union here in Pensacola have called an end to all talks. *I'm not a union member and neither is my fiancee who is a teacher*. But we support what the union is doing. They are fighting for a raise or what's commonly known as a cost of living increase, which they haven't recieved in 2yrs so teachers are struggling. Also, our school system is virtually bankrupt. For the past two years, the administrators have built schools on the outskirts (well to do areas) of the district where traditionally there has not been a need for new schools. An example of this is the newest school in the district was built to hold 1500 kids, 359 actually attend the school. How moronic is that? 359 students get a brand new school, it might as well be private because to bus kids to the school from the city would take about an hour bus ride.

Another interesting tell, our bankrupt school system doesn't have funding to give teachers their cost of living raise which would total about 1.5mil for all teachers to get a modest increase. BUT the system has 4.5mil in technology sector for computers. I won't deny our computer classes in this county is horrible. Hell, they have Zenith 100Mhz computers that were new when I was there about 92-93. I'm never one to complain about buying a new computer in fact I experienced that joy 2wks ago with the purchase of a Pismo. I feel that we can set aside 1.5 mil to keep our teachers happy and most importantly teaching. Because without them, who will continue to buy macs? lol

[yoyo52]

Originally posted by Scott_H:


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yoyo52:
Happens I teach in a college and really have no boss to speak of other than my students, my colleagues, my discipline, and my research agenda.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then you are the exception to the rule.

And how exactly would you know about either the exception or the rule? From my angle of vision, which is inside academe, the exception is the self-focused slime bag that you describe. The dedicated, student-centered instructor is by far the norm. As I said before, that's also true concerning the teachers my son has had up through sixth grade, who are working in what is at best an intolerable climate of suspicion and insufficient funding.

Originally posted by Scott_H:
Enjoy your ivory tower.

In my case it's more like crumbling brick, but thanks for the suggestion. I do enjoy it. Wouldn't trade my students for all the tea in China, although the blues in Chicago might tempt me.

[edit for formatting]


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And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear

[This message has been edited by yoyo52 (edited 05-24-2001).]

[finboy]

I agree that the low quality of teacher's education and the standards for most collegiate programs in education are hurting public education in this country. And the teachers' unions are leading the way in making it worse.

But over and above EVERYTHING ELSE is the educational infrastructure. We have too many administrators, too many people who AREN'T on the front line every day fulfilling the mission of the institution. The guidance counselors (who've never really had a legitimate role, anyway) and all the other hangers-on that aren't directly supporting the teaching effort. There are just too many of them, mainly because the leftists have decided that schools are a place to put forth their agenda, socialize the kids and provide all manner of services UNRELATED TO basic education. This is true in academia as well.

And any of you ivory tower types out there who don't think that this impacts your quality of life -- wake up! I've been teaching at the college level for over 10 years now, and I have consistently seen the quality of the raw material that I have to work with drop to lower and lower (sometimes astoundingly low) depths. I can only do so much with so little. And it frustrates me that we lose so many promising youth because they've never been challenged or required to think.

Finally, for the voucher thing. Two ideas. First, lets judge voucher programs the same way that the leftist Democrats judge all social programs: if it helps ONE PERSON (child) then it's worth it. We can always fall back on that reasoning.

Second, I don't think we should have vouchers, but those people who don't have children in public school shouldn't be charged state, local or federal taxes that are used to support public schools. We hear citations of the amount spent per child all the time, so we know that they can keep up with how much I shouldn't have to pay if my kids aren't in public school. That's the best system -- just get me out of paying taxes for a service that I don't use. I might use it in the future, and I might benefit from it sometimes, but I don't have kids in school so don't make me pay for schools. That would force parents to pay ALL the taxes related to schools, and then they'd choose the best schools. We could have federal student loan programs for those folks who couldn't afford it, and let the kids pay it off after they left school (whenever that turned out to be). That would be the ONLY WAY other than vouchers to breed some accountability among the propeller-heads that are running things at the local and state levels.

Nobody is proud of the wasted potential of an uneducated kid. But continuing to support an education system that indoctrinates well but teaches poorly is not the answer. Vouchers MIGHT be the answer, since the dumbsh*t establishment seems to be so opposed to them. Certainly, a market-based approach will eventually work better than what we've got now, including a market for hiring and firing teachers when they don't perform. To the extent that unions continue to institutionalize mediocrity, they need to go.

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Shop smart, shop S-Mart! You got that!!?!!

[maxelson]

In reading the above post, I must reply to the notion that childless people should not pay taxes that support schools. It is in the collective best interest of this nation that our children are educated. Collective. Once the ball you describe starts rolling, then it will be parents who send children to private institutions who will want the same relief. Next it will be parents of grown children. Next is a bankrupt educational system.
The idea does not look too far down the road. Education is already underfunded (and what money there is ain't focused on teachers, either). How will cutting that funding further help? The federal governmant has proven time and again- no matter what party or administration- that they are only willing to do what is flashy- not what is NEEDED. This testing and voucher crap is just that. Crap. Teach the kids. Let the teachers do what they do. Allow them to keep teaching as a financially viable option for a career. Get parents to be directly involved in their kid's education. SImple. Results WILL improve.

[maxelson]

OK. I lied. I have something else to add. How will the teachers performance be judged? By the amount of As they give? How the kids perform on test scores? Fire a teacher who gives out a deserved F?
Finboy, I think you'll need to explain your idea on that one before I go any further. I don't want to start debating a point if I am misunderstanding it.
Ooop. Time to go home. I'm tutoring a kid with his Shakespeare paper this evening.

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"I am not really an actor. I'm merely dyspeptic."

[etphonehome]

Why is it that the federal government can dictate how local schools are run? The Constitution was meant to limit the power of the federal government by specifically stating what it can do and leaving absolutely everything else to the state and local governments. If you look at the Constitution, you'd see absolutely no mention of public schools, so how is it that the federal government can regulate public schools?

[elppa cam]

Originally posted by maxelson:
I've just kind of been lurking here. THis is one of those issues that I get way too passionate about. elppa: what is the issue you have with your teachers? Of course, when you are in the middle of it, teacher bashing is what you do. In high school I (and I am sure, most of us) did the same. But. Take a second to think about what they do. NO ONE teaches for the money. No one becomes a teacher (or at least stays one) because of June, July and August. No one does it because they relish the thought of being abused by parents and targeted by politicians. No one teaches because it is easy. Think about it: people teach because, no matter how it may seem to you, they care about you and your future. Seeing a student strive is incredible. Seeing a student succeed at whatever is one of the best gifts you can get. The motivation of a good teacher is... the student. No ulterior motives.
The current trend toward "making teachers accountable" will do one thing: terrify teachers into teaching to the tests. Is that education? No. It is programming. Any good teacher wants to teach you HOW to think- not WHAT to think.
Admission: all of this dawned on me only when I became a teacher. Teaching classes. Advising students. Coaching. Running a dorm. Politics of education. Policies. Disciplining. Regular 15 hour days. Returning from a study session at 10 PM to prep the following day's classes. The headaches and heartaches (it is hard to disallow personal interest in what you do as a teacher). Best and worst job I've ever had. I have no doubt that I will go back to it in a professional way at some point.

Uh... perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm... we sometimes don't listen to teachers... and that's the problem... and thus... we be dumb...

But sorry, I've known too many stupid teachers to give teachers a lump of praise. I'll leave that to the Teachers Union.

On the other hand... I've known some kick-ass teachers. Hoo-ray to them.

But I still say... a teacher's the last person I'd listen to... and that's the problem!!

Those who can...do! Those who can't...

[finboy]

Originally posted by maxelson:
OK. I lied. I have something else to add. How will the teachers performance be judged? By the amount of As they give? How the kids perform on test scores? Fire a teacher who gives out a deserved F?
Finboy, I think you'll need to explain your idea on that one before I go any further. I don't want to start debating a point if I am misunderstanding it.

There's no point to debate. You're arguing about how to measure a teacher's performance. My suggestion is that we get rid of folks who don't perform.

I don't know the best way to measure performance in the classroom. We could give teachers tests to evaluate their abilities, on a regular basis. We could have outsiders come in and evaluate their teaching ability on a random basis, by observing. There are probably lots of things that could be done to set up a system (at the LOCAL LEVEL) but something has to change -- it ain't working now.

One way to NOT evaluate teacher performance is the way that most universities seem to prefer -- student evaluations. At the university level, we get all KINDS of feedback from our true customers, the business community. They have no trouble telling us if and when we're sending them morons to interview. Student evals, however, can always be gamed by professors by not requiring students to work and by giving away lots of good grades. That's how we ended up with so much grade inflation in higher ed in this country. In the "thinking" disciplines it's a big joke -- the professors don't ask the students to work (at least in basic classes) and the students don't bug the professor, thereby allowing professors to spend their time doing research that so often essentially asks how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. After all, how many students are going to be applying for a job where their knowledge of undergraduate sociology is tested on a daily basis. That kind of problem doesn't exist for folks in engineering and the other hard disciplines (of which business is close, but not close enough). If I pass somebody who doesn't know the material, I hear about it.

BUT that again comes back to the raw material. If they don't know how to read & think by the time they're juniors in college, how much can we really get them to learn, anyway? The buck gets passed to us all the way up the food chain, until the students graduate and find out that they don't have any marketable skills or direction in their careers. Thankfully, a good number of them figure out how useless most of their college work is and concentrate on the important stuff, or they get on their own what they should be learning from qualified professionals. After all, the state and the students PAY for an education, why shouldn't they get a fair shot at one?

Something's got to be done at the lower levels, and I don't care what it takes to make it work. We're losing potential and productivity every day in this country, and it's frustrating to young people. The last thing we want is more frustration among America's hope for the future.

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Shop smart, shop S-Mart! You got that!!?!!

[This message has been edited by finboy (edited 05-24-2001).]

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by yoyo52:
And how exactly would you know about either the exception or the rule?

'cause your not teaching in public school.

In my case it's more like crumbling brick, but thanks for the suggestion. I do enjoy it. Wouldn't trade my students for all the tea in China, although the blues in Chicago might tempt me.

Lots of good schools here. Plus tons Democrats! You'll love it.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by Quadzmodo:
Please understand that I don't agree with what the teachers did, but I do believe they are justified in doing it. If a prinicipals calls a meeting after and a teacher has previous engagements there is no reason why the announcement .....

I don't think that was the case in that anicdote. Union contrat say 40 minutes so at 3:40 (or whenever) the union members get up and walk out. Doesn't matter if they have the time. Doesn't matter if the pricipal is going over important information vital to the school. 40 minutes, times up, get up and and leave. You should read that op ed if you think people are "justified" in doing those type if things.

As it stands now, the teachers union here in Pensacola have called an end to all talks. *I'm not a union member and neither is my fiancee who is a teacher*. But we support what the union is doing. They are fighting for a raise or what's commonly known as a cost of living increase, which they haven't recieved in 2yrs so teachers are struggling.

That's fine. The union can fight all they want. The union should have had a cost of living in there in the first place. If they didn't then they shouldn't have signed. You make your deal. You sign the contract. I'm not going to "fight" for teachers because they have a union to fight for them.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by MacmanX:
.....Why should I pay for the rich to send their kids to schools to be apart from the poor, the disabled, immigrants, or whatever they perceive as undesirable. I will not pay for segregation!

....

Oh crap. "segregation"? Please. Consider for a moment that the Liberal Democrats with the prodding of the labor bosses oppose any voucher system at all. Even for kids in failing school who's parents cannot afford to send them to private.

I'm not a big "voucher" fan. I do worry that it will defund the school. Many schools are flat out failing the kids. That's the real crime. Those kids need an out. We should help them.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by finboy:
There's no point to debate. You're arguing about how to measure a teacher's performance. My suggestion is that we get rid of folks who don't perform.

I don't know the best way to measure performance in the classroom. We could give teachers tests to evaluate their abilities, on a regular basis. We could have outsiders come in and evaluate their teaching ability on a random basis, by observing. There are probably lots of things that could be done to set up a system (at the LOCAL LEVEL) but something has to change -- it ain't working now.

finboy, I just think you're looking in the wrong place for the fix. You can switch teachers, change schools, give vouchers, and people might as well be flappin' their arms. The problem is the students, not the schools. Students aren't just empty receptacles that sit in class and get learnin' dumped into them by some magical, charismatic, brilliant teacher. In the end, they have to take responsibility for getting educated.

I see this blame-the-teacher, blame-the-school idea as a part of the general tendency to evade personal responsibility. "Oh, Johnny can't read or write. It must be the teacher's fault. They're supposed to be teaching them something!" How absurd. If you don't read the book you're supposed to read, you don't blame the book.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by BRussell:
finboy, I just think you're looking in the wrong place for the fix. You can switch teachers, change schools, give vouchers, and people might as well be flappin' their arms. The problem is the students, not the schools. Students aren't just empty receptacles that sit in class and get learnin' dumped into them by some magical, charismatic, brilliant teacher. In the end, they have to take responsibility for getting educated.

I see this blame-the-teacher, blame-the-school idea as a part of the general tendency to evade personal responsibility. "Oh, Johnny can't read or write. It must be the teacher's fault. They're supposed to be teaching them something!" How absurd. If you don't read the book you're supposed to read, you don't blame the book.

You're blaming the one thing we don't have control over. We have control over the schools, teachers, books, funding, admin, rules, .... The kids come to the school to learn. It's "our" job to teach them.

I think your attitude is one of "evade personal responsibility". Kids are kids. They'll play video games all day if we let them. They can't take responsibility for a lot of stuff because they are just kids. Heck most can keep from loosing the house keys. To blame them is avoinding our responsibility to teach them.

It's a total cop out to blame the kids!

[This message has been edited by Scott_H (edited 05-25-2001).]

[TNproud2b]

Amen to everything Scott_H has said...or will say in the future.

The amount of typing he saves me is astronomical.