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A bit of a legal one... (Page 2)
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Phileas
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Jan 5, 2011, 11:30 AM
 
Basically, CR did the exact opposite of what everybody here told him to do. I know you're young but why on earth didn't you listen to the advice you were getting here?

In a nutshell, you've been ****ed, without even the courtesy of a free dinner. You've resigned, which means that your ex boss has zero obligations to pay you anything except your outstanding salary and Social Security has no obligations to pay you for three (six?) months.

What were you thinking?

When your boss told you that the position wasn't being made redundant then the only other option he had was to fire you. In order to fire you, he has to have cause. Cause to terminate employment can be criminal activity or the inability to do the job you've been hired to do. If it is the latter, then you need to give two written warnings to the employee before you can terminate the relationship.

In reality, the way it normally works is that you pay your way out of a relationship that's gone south. You call the guy you want to fire in, lay it on the table, make a cash offer and then make him/her sign a release form. After that everybody goes their separate way and is happy.
     
turtle777
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Jan 5, 2011, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The bizarre anachronism here is that faxes ARE legal documents - presumably because faxes weren't as easily manipulatable until about twenty-five years ago, and such regulations change s - l - o - w - l - y.
I thought that was an idiosyncrasy of German law.

How the hell is a fax send/receive log something you couldn't easily alter ?

-t
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 5, 2011, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
How the hell is a fax send/receive log something you couldn't easily alter ?
I think the idea is that the receiver can verify that at a certain time, a phone call was made between number [sender] and number [receiver]. Hence, you can verify that something was sent, but of course, you cannot verify the authenticity of a fax.
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Doofy
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Jan 5, 2011, 12:50 PM
 
OK, about email. It does have the same legal standing as a letter here, but only as long as it's been signed with a digital cert (PGP, Thawte, etc.). However, since there's only about three of us in the country who use such things, it's probably a dead-end in this case.

I don't fancy chances in the court. Lawyers start at £150 an hour, and that's for the ones who can't work out the VAT on £100 without reaching for the calculator.

Best option now is to find a new job as soon as possible and forget about the whole thing.
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Phileas
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:10 PM
 
Citizen's Advice Bureau?
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:10 PM
 
Well, that and to sign the exboss up for all sorts of unpleasant mailing lists.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
OK, about email. It does have the same legal standing as a letter here, but only as long as it's been signed with a digital cert (PGP, Thawte, etc.). However, since there's only about three of us in the country who use such things, it's probably a dead-end in this case.

I don't fancy chances in the court. Lawyers start at £150 an hour, and that's for the ones who can't work out the VAT on £100 without reaching for the calculator.

Best option now is to find a new job as soon as possible and forget about the whole thing.
And that's exactly what the employer would be speculating on.

Not saying that it's not worth the trouble, but employers get away with this kind of shit all the time.

A friend got stiffed over a similar issue. He had all the paperwork to document it, though, so the employer didn't stand a chance in court. Except that the health insurance was tied in with the issue (the employer had illegally terminated the contract, and thus health insurance), and thus he had to pay doctors' bills out of his own pocket, because the insurance couldn't move until his legal status regarding his previous employer was cleared.

In the meantime, he needed a doctor's opinion to be able to collect unemployment (long story), which he couldn't get because he couldn't afford the doctor - as he wasn't collecting unemployment benefits, and the health insurance wasn't coming through, and his previous employer owed him a shitload of money.

Literally living hand-to-mouth, running ever further into debt…
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I thought that was an idiosyncrasy of German law.

How the hell is a fax send/receive log something you couldn't easily alter ?

-t
a) Generally, both sending AND receiving parties get a log of transmissions.

b) Faxes stem from a time when *content* was not easily manipulated. Now that faxes are sent/received digitally, that point is rather moot.
     
turtle777
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think the idea is that the receiver can verify that at a certain time, a phone call was made between number [sender] and number [receiver]. Hence, you can verify that something was sent, but of course, you cannot verify the authenticity of a fax.
Plus, Sent does not necessarily mean Received.

-t
     
Doofy
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Plus, Sent does not necessarily mean Received.
It does with a fax. IIRC, the sending machine won't sign off on a send until it receives confirmation of reception.
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turtle777
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It does with a fax. IIRC, the sending machine won't sign off on a send until it receives confirmation of reception.
What if the receiving fax gets the data, stores it in RAM, but then chokes on printing and crashes ?
Does that count as received ? I guess it does.
Does that mean a persona actually got the fax and information ? No.

The bigger issue is that fax logs can easily be manipulated.

-t
     
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Citizen's Advice Bureau?
As far as I can tell, the one around here works for an hour every second Thursday - rendering them utterly pointless. His mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
And that's exactly what the employer would be speculating on.

Not saying that it's not worth the trouble, but employers get away with this kind of shit all the time.
Remember that we're only hearing one side of the story.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
A friend got stiffed over a similar issue. He had all the paperwork to document it, though, so the employer didn't stand a chance in court. Except that the health insurance was tied in with the issue (the employer had illegally terminated the contract, and thus health insurance), and thus he had to pay doctors' bills out of his own pocket, because the insurance couldn't move until his legal status regarding his previous employer was cleared.

In the meantime, he needed a doctor's opinion to be able to collect unemployment (long story), which he couldn't get because he couldn't afford the doctor - as he wasn't collecting unemployment benefits, and the health insurance wasn't coming through, and his previous employer owed him a shitload of money.

Literally living hand-to-mouth, running ever further into debt…
Ouch.
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Doofy
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
What if the receiving fax gets the data, stores it in RAM, but then chokes on printing and crashes ?
Does that count as received ? I guess it does.
Does that mean a persona actually got the fax and information ? No.
Good point.
However, I'm thinking in terms of what everyone uses here - not many folks in small business appear to have gone digital, so it's still a case of the fax prints while its being received.

It does beg the question as to why nobody's thought up a sensible modern document sending system though, doesn't it? What's the closest we've got (for regular use)... ...Outlook with the read receipts on? Crap.
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Spheric Harlot
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Jan 5, 2011, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Remember that we're only hearing one side of the story.
Good call.

It does seem like he's presenting everything to his (ex-)employer's benefit, though.
     
NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 6, 2011, 11:38 AM
 
Ahhhhhhh! everyone seems to be blowing things out of proportion!

We still have a good relationship and have been 100% honest with you guys, the company hit hard times (has no money) and he couldn't pay any of the staff their wages. We were all presented with 3 options, delay being paid till the finances are available, resign, or become a founding member and lose my salary only taking a share of the profits.

I said that option 1&3 were no good for me as i live by myself with no savings or financial support and with a rent and bills to pay, i needed a guaranteed income, I aked around for peoples advice inc here and everyone said option 2 given my situation, but i need to make sure i was being made redundant, so i went in there and said that.

He looked into it with his solicitors and said that he couldn't do that and that my only option was to resign. We came to the agreement that I would resign but keep get my redundancy pay and holiday pay along with that months wages (due a few days later)

Its clear to me that I have to go in their monday and get a lot of thing on paper and signed. I need to get the agreement which which i left on paper and signed, the agreement regarding pay on paper and signed.

Anything else i should be doing?

And for those people saying why did i still quit after being told i couldn't be made redundant, i wasn't going to hang around for another month been span a web of tales about when im going to get paid and then find the company goes under, i dont get any pay, and i have to find 2 months worth of rent from somewhere.

At least this was i know providing i get paid what I'm owed some time soon i should be fine to cover myself for my months notice on my flat etc and to move back to york.
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 6, 2011, 12:38 PM
 
Apparently i might be getting paid tomorrow :-)
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JKT
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Jan 6, 2011, 02:26 PM
 
Btw, you can get Job Seeker's Allowance from the DWP even if you do quit, as long as the company you were working for provides them with a valid and reasonable rationale for your doing so when they are asked, such as "we weren't able to pay them as we were under threat of bankruptcy so he had to leave because he couldn't accept any of the other alternatives we provided him". If they were to tell the DWP the same story that you have told us here, then it is possible that you would be able to claim JSA from day 1* after signing on for the first time (and long before the 6 months), because you were put into a situation that made it impossible for you to stay. You should also sign on ASAP after quitting - the DWP will pay you from that point onwards until your claim has been processed. If your claim is successful, you keep the money, but if not you have to pay it back - however, they will never backdate payments so waiting a few weeks or months means you would lose the money that you might have been entitled to.

However, it would definitely depend on what your company told the DWP, what mood the DWP were in when they were told it (and the middle of a recession when departments are cutting costs left, right and centre, is quite possibly not a good time to do this), so you could end up having to wait up to 6 months regardless.

Also, be aware that you can still freelance *and* get JSA so long as you don't get paid more than the 65 odd quid they pay in JSA at the moment per week and don't work more than 16 hours a week. If you get less than the 65 a week from your freelancing and worked less than 16 hours, what you do get paid from your freelancing is deducted from your JSA, which will make up the difference to ensure you get 65 per week. If you do get more than the 65 quid, but work less than 16 hours, you still have to sign on (for National Insurance reasons) but you get no money from the DWP. If you work more than 16 hours in the week, you have to sign off, then sign on again whenever it falls below 16 hours.

The reason I tell you this is that you might be eligible for housing benefit and council tax benefit but that is dependent on your getting JSA or income support. If you do get awarded JSA or income support, you can claim HB and/or CT if your savings are less than £16,000. If you have been awarded JSA, get in touch with your council ASAP and get things started.

Also, be aware that as a freelancer you need to keep receipts for any business related costs as you will be able to claim back some tax and you will need to fill in a self-assessment form at some point and you will need to pay tax on your earnings. In other words, make sure you keep something like a third to four-fifths of your earnings to one side to pay any tax you will owe at the end of the year. Visit the HMRC website to learn the ins and outs.

If you fail to find any other work, you could also be due a tax rebate at the end of the financial year as your tax code should have been changed to a different band from the one you started the year on.

* Note, however, that you don't get paid anything for the first 3 days of your claim regardless of how you start it. I have absolutely no idea why as it something that has never made any sense to me.
( Last edited by JKT; Jan 6, 2011 at 02:45 PM. )
     
JKT
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Jan 6, 2011, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Just refuse to pick any of the options and make them fire you.
Then you have been made redundant for sure.

As I read it, if you don't pick, Option 2) will go into effect and they will fire you on Friday.
BUT: don't pick this option, because then they'd say you quit.

(You can always explain to the next employer why you acted that way.)

-t
I'm late with this, but it is worth pointing out that they would never have been able to fire someone like that anyway. Unless you are still in a probabtionary period, you have to go through a formal procedure to be fired; that is: a disciplinary meeting supervised by someone from HR and with a personal rep present, followed by a formal, written warning about your performance which you can appeal, a probationary period of 'reasonable' length to attempt to show that you are able to do your job, then a second disciplinary procedure. Only then could they fire you - and you can also appeal that decision - unless you did something in breach of your contract. If they did it any other way, you would have grounds for suing them for an illegal dismissal. As far as I am aware, all they could do legally in this situation is make you redundant on the Friday.
     
JKT
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Jan 6, 2011, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Say what ?

So why would companies EVER do redundancies, if they could just fire people ?
<snip>
See above - if you are contracted, they can't just fire you. Firing someone can take longer (and, potentially, be more expensive) than making them redundant.
     
Phileas
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Jan 6, 2011, 03:40 PM
 
JKT is correct. I lost my job when the first gulf war broke out. I worked on the advertising account for a large credit card company, spending collapsed, a recession ensued and over 30% of the ad people working in London lost their job. I was one of them.

Thankfully I worked for a large international agency who did the decent thing and paid all of us three to six months salary. Still, I signed on the very same day and talked to my landlord, telling him to expect rent payments to arrive from my dole payments. Freelance work was hard to find, due to the market being absolutely saturated with talent and it took me over six months to find my next job.

I remember several restaurants in Soho getting so desperate they started offering £5.00 lunch specials, the same places that used to make a killing from expense accounts.
     
Doofy
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Jan 6, 2011, 04:07 PM
 
I still smell fishiness here.

So I'm going to hang my ass out and say that the business owner may well have got wind of the new way of doing things. That is, no employees, all staff are self-employed freelancers.
It's the only way to bypass the upcoming legislation regarding all sorts of stupid things (e.g. all companies will shortly need to give new mothers their own room and fridge and let them spend hours on end pampering the baby they took to work).
I've noticed a lot more people cottoning on to this way of working recently. No more having to mess with PAYE, no more having to take notice of (m/p)aternity leave laws, no more industrial tribunals, no more worrying about whether you've got the approved ethnic mix, etc., etc..
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turtle777
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Jan 6, 2011, 04:27 PM
 
You gotta love how Government's attempts to introduce more socialism fairness and employee protection always results in the complete opposite.

When will politicians learn that whatever they touch, it will turn into crap ?

-t
     
NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 7, 2011, 06:12 AM
 
Btw, you can get Job Seeker's Allowance from the DWP even if you do quit, as long as the company you were working for provides them with a valid and reasonable rationale for your doing so when they are asked, such as "we weren't able to pay them as we were under threat of bankruptcy so he had to leave because he couldn't accept any of the other alternatives we provided him". If they were to tell the DWP the same story that you have told us here, then it is possible that you would be able to claim JSA from day 1* after signing on for the first time (and long before the 6 months), because you were put into a situation that made it impossible for you to stay.
Good to finally hear someone say that, I've heard rumblings that was true, but very few people have said that.

You should also sign on ASAP after quitting - the DWP will pay you from that point onwards until your claim has been processed. If your claim is successful, you keep the money, but if not you have to pay it back - however, they will never backdate payments so waiting a few weeks or months means you would lose the money that you might have been entitled to.
Yer i signed on from the day after i resigned, had the assessment meeting the day after that, still waiting to hear back.

And KJT thanks for all the other info, thats brilliant, do u work for them or something lol
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 7, 2011, 06:22 AM
 
P.S. i changed my username to NobleMatt
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Athens
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Jan 7, 2011, 06:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
They're not admissible as legal evidence because they're no more reliable than verbal agreements (except that verbal agreements ARE admissible if witnesses exist).

I can print out ANYTHING with a date, a from, and a to address.

Stuff pulled of corporate servers by a forensics team is a different matter, obviously.

The bizarre anachronism here is that faxes ARE legal documents - presumably because faxes weren't as easily manipulatable until about twenty-five years ago, and such regulations change s - l - o - w - l - y.
Thats not totally true. At least here any court case dealing with email evidence the court can subpoena server logs for authentication if there is any dispute over the records. In the end its going to be a jurisdictional thing on whats admissible as evidence. For example in BC its perfectly legal to record a conversation with out informing the other party you are recording, further more its admissible as evidence in a BC court. Other provinces and States its not.

My advice to NobbleMatt is find some older chap who has lots of experience with employment issues. First hand local advice from some one with experience is golden. I never really looked into anything from the UK before but from what I have read through out this thread it sounds like a nightmare.

I personally would conduct any further verbal communications with a witness if you cant get stuff put in writing and signed. He said He said games never go well if this ends up in court. I would also look now at legal help for your kind of situation, services that work on a pro bono/publico relationship so if it does come down to that you can quickly deal with it.

I would also record a log of all communications immediately after its been done so you have it recorded freshly from memory which you can refer back to. Issues like this take time to resolve and the longer it takes the more chance of you making mistakes if you have to recollect from memory which can dam your chances.

The one thing I have learned over the years is tons of agencies and resources are out there to help but finding them are a pain in the butt.
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NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 8, 2011, 12:19 PM
 
Well hopefully it wont come to any of that.

I spoke to an advice line about how I was made to leave the company and they said that was all legal so if i dont get JSA then i guess i don't have any options.

Payment didn't come through yesterday but have been told it will be monday morning now... wait and see i guess. I think i can support myself for a month or two with out JSA if i have no life and don't bank anything I'm getting paid now. I guess i'll wait and see what happens.
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Spheric Harlot
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Jan 8, 2011, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Thats not totally true. At least here any court case dealing with email evidence the court can subpoena server logs for authentication if there is any dispute over the records. In the end its going to be a jurisdictional thing on whats admissible as evidence. For example in BC its perfectly legal to record a conversation with out informing the other party you are recording, further more its admissible as evidence in a BC court. Other provinces and States its not.
FWIW, what I described is what I believe to be the case in Germany.
     
NobleMatt  (op)
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Jan 10, 2011, 12:54 PM
 
well received £500 of what im owed today, rest to come in following days hopefully... sigh
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