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Backup Software (Page 3)
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P
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Jul 20, 2014, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
I never asked you to, and I don't want you to. My use of the tools I choose, along with the practices I do each and every day, are good enough for my purposes.
That is entirely fine, but you have been recommending them as some sort of general best practice. That is, as usual, where I react. You practices do not take into consideration user error, malware or file corruption, which makes them unsuited for the average user.

Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
I am talking about doing this on one's machine, on their own. It has nothing to do with RAID. I never said it did.
No, I did. I'm trying to understand your thinking here, possibly ascribing more forethought to your actions than you actually took, but I prefer to assume the best of the people I'm arguing with and err on that side. Your setup has the advantage of being quick to recover from a disk failure, and the disadvantages I've listed above. That makes it functionally equivalent to a RAID. This means that you are making the same mistake a few thousand other people have already made, to the point of making "RAID is not a backup" into a meme.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 20, 2014, 03:43 PM
 
It's time for "cloning is not a backup" to become one.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
It's time for "cloning is not a backup" to become one.
It's time for "untrue claims" to admit their mistake with such an erroneous statement, and act liek a man. (Probably not possible, with you).
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
That is entirely fine, but you have been recommending them as some sort of general best practice. That is, as usual, where I react. You practices do not take into consideration user error, malware or file corruption, which makes them unsuited for the average user.
Again, just like some other folks around here, you are "sticking words in my mouth", so to speak, and making false statements. I have NEVER recommended my strategy to anyone else. I have consistently stated that the backup strategy I use works fine for me, and satisfies my needs.

Also, I'll repeat something I said about a 1/2 hour ago:

"Once again I state the following:

1. My backup strategy works for me.

2. Other people choose to use Time Machine. Well and good, and apparently that works for them.

3. Some people choose the best of both worlds. That is, they use Time Machine and an additional tool like Super Duper or Carbon Copy Cloner (or something similar). Again, well and good, and it works for them."

Seems to be fair, balanced, and not a recommendation for any of those approaches to anyone else.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:08 PM
 
It works because you haven't had a failure yet.

The point of a backup is to provide safety when something goes wrong.

You can't claim it's working until it needs to. Especially not when people (basically everybody else, in fact) point out the huge logical flaws in you procedure.
Such as the fact that you don't actually HAVE a backup strategy.

I'd also be very, very careful with those insults.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
It's time for "untrue claims" to admit their mistake with such an erroneous statement, and act liek a man. (Probably not possible, with you).
I'm not reporting this, but I'm quoting it for posterity.

"Post maturely, and on topic."
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
It works because you haven't had a failure yet.
True, and I am very, very careful with my processing between backups. Yes, it is not "perfect" (never said it was), but I make every attempt to minimize problems.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The point of a backup is to provide safety when something goes wrong.
True, and my recent recovery was a perfect example of that.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
You can't claim it's working until it needs to.
Recently it did.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Especially not when people (basically everybody else, in fact) point out the huge logical flaws in you procedure. Such as the fact that you don't actually HAVE a backup strategy.
It is not "everybody else". Some folks have made positive statements about what I am doing. Plus, there are plenty of folks not on any of these forums that just use something like Super Duper, and plenty of folks that use just Time Machine, and plenty of folks that use both.

Once again, you make a false and inaccurate statement.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'd also be very, very careful with those insults.
I am just stating the truth. To put this another way, I directly challenge you to do the following:

1. Show me exactly where I have stated that my backup strategy is perfect. If you can't, then admit your mistake, like a man.

2. Show me exactly where I have made false assumptions, without any further clarification. Again, if you can't, then admit your mistake, like a man.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'm not reporting this, but I'm quoting it for posterity.

"Post maturely, and on topic."
I do post maturely, and on topic. Folks like you do not post maturely, as you make inaccurate, false statements (I pointed those out above).
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:26 PM
 
It may just be a figure of speech, but seeing as your antipathy towards me (near as I can tell) stems from a thread where you were unable to discern a common figure of speech from a personal insult, I figure it's more likely that you really ARE calling my manhood into question.

Over an internet discussion, where many (not just I) are actually trying to be helpful and point out that your construct is headed for failure and data loss.

That's pretty fascinating to me to watch.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:28 PM
 
Your false assumption is that you are making a backup of intact data.

The correct assessment is that without versioning, you have no way of knowing that any of the data you are copying is intact.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
It may just be a figure of speech, but seeing as your antipathy towards me (near as I can tell) stems from a thread where you were unable to discern a common figure of speech from a personal insult, I figure it's more likely that you really ARE calling my manhood into question.

Over an internet discussion, where many (not just I) are actually trying to be helpful and point out that your construct is headed for failure and data loss.

That's pretty fascinating to me to watch.
You are not the only one that used the word perfect incorrectly. Again, I have never used it, yet you can't show me where I did. Since you don't want to admit your mistake like a man, then yes, your manhood is being called into question.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Your false assumption is that you are making a backup of intact data.

The correct assessment is that without versioning, you have no way of knowing that any of the data you are copying is intact.
Once again, you are using a term that I never stated. I have never stated that the data is intact. In fact, I have agreed with others that there could be corrupt data there (as there would be with one or more Time Machine backups). With either approach (or even with both of them), there is the risk of corrupt files. I accept that.

I did state that through my efforts, I am attempting to minimize corrupt data. Where does that say intact?

Again, just like your use of "perfect", I again challenge you to show me where I have ever said intact. I bet you can't. And, if you can't, be a man and admit your mistake.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:40 PM
 
I would rather use the word "backup" correctly than the word "perfect".

I'm happy to argue about semantics relevant to the thread, and avoid discussion about semantics relevant to your ego.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I would rather use the word "backup" correctly than the word "perfect".

I'm happy to argue about semantics relevant to the thread, and avoid discussion about semantics relevant to your ego.
It's clear you made those inaccurate statements about me, and thus cannot be a man and admit your mistakes. It has nothing to do with my ego. In fact, I am not exhibiting any sort of ego. I feel just about all my explanations have been fair and balanced.

In the past, I have immediately admitted, in public, errors I have made. I guess folks like you can't do such a simple, and mature thing.

Additionally, in a prior post on this thread, I showed where the definitions of backup and cloning both used the word copying. That they share in common.

But, trying to reason with you is just about impossible. No matter what you say, there will be disagreements. But, I will not make any inaccurate statements. If I do, I will admit that right away. Completely different that you, that's for sure!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 20, 2014, 04:53 PM
 
Unless you're actually doing a surface scan with TechTool Pro, you're not minimizing corrupt data at all. You're avoiding directory corruption, which can help, but you have zero information about data integrity.

Another false assumption.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Unless you're actually doing a surface scan with TechTool Pro, you're not minimizing corrupt data at all. You're avoiding directory corruption, which can help, but you have zero information about data integrity.
I am doing a surface scan with Tech Tool Pro.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Another false assumption.
Once again, you make a false, and inaccurate statement. I have already stated (maybe corrected one of my original statements, but I doubt it) that I understand that tools like Onyx, Tech Tool Pro, and Disk Warrior cannot detect file/data corruption.

But, you still have not shown where I previously used the word "perfect" with any of my statements. I guess that is just another example of you not posting accurately, or else you would admit your mistake.
     
unicast reversepath
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Jul 20, 2014, 10:56 PM
 
I think a certain somebody should just throw in the towel here and quit arguing - while they still have a small shred of respectability left!

Just sayin...

Also - Please notify the hamster in charge that I would like financial recompense for the 30 minutes wasted reading this frightfully fun debate!
If you have Ghosts, you have Everything!
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 11:12 PM
 
Wish this thread would end peacefully, but folks keep making incorrect, inaccurate statements.
     
unicast reversepath
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Jul 20, 2014, 11:16 PM
 
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akent35  (op)
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Jul 20, 2014, 11:47 PM
 
To that, need to add for you:

I need to crawl back under my 3rd rock.
     
besson3c
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Jul 21, 2014, 04:17 AM
 
Is this thread being backed up?
     
mattyb
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Jul 21, 2014, 05:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Is this thread being backed up?
No, cloned.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 21, 2014, 05:27 AM
 
So its signal-to-garbage ratio stays the same.

I'm sorry.
     
ghporter
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Jul 21, 2014, 06:49 AM
 
Let's stay civil, shall we? Someone not catching something, or not reading it the way the writer intended is not "can't read." This discussion has gone fairly nicely so far, I'd hate to have to close it because participants can't be polite.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
turtle777
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Jul 21, 2014, 01:36 PM
 
Again, I still would like to understand why the OP even started this thread.

He's so apologetic and defensive about his own "backup" strategy that I don't buy the "trying to learn something" argument.

At any rate, this *is* entertaining. Can't wait for this backup strategy to blow up. There's going to be some mighty fine "told ya so" moments.

-t
     
besson3c
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Jul 21, 2014, 01:42 PM
 
It probably won't blow up, the probability is very low for a failure and a corrupt clone and/or damage to significant files to happen simultaneously, so this thread is a nerd fight, but still, it's hard for me to comprehend where this disconnect lies and why we can't seem to agree on some facts.

It seems to me that the root of this is personalizing these things in weird ways in saying things like "my backup works for me", and feeling that if one pokes holes in a backup strategy that they are attacking that person or something. This seems to be the only explanation as to why this has gotten strangely emotional.

At the end of the day stuff either lines up with our collective knowledge of data integrity or it doesn't, there is no need for any of this to be personal. Your computer certainly doesn't care if you feel good about your backup
     
P
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Jul 21, 2014, 02:12 PM
 
I think that it is what I like to call "maintenance syndrome" - a feeling that you have to do some major maintenance on everything you have, because things need maintenance. This is mostly benign, but in some cases it becomes "the built in thing is too easy, I can make it a different way that is harder and therefore better". On a current Mac, that just not the case. Apple has no interest in you buying other software to maintain it - they want the OS to be all you need, so the built-in thing is either quite good or very hard to replace (like the file system)

And so we get to this. SuperDuper et al have their place - namely, that you can be quickly back from a crash - but lack the versioning and thinning features of Time Machine. This makes it not better, just different, for a different use case. A truck instead of a motorcycle, say. If you were focused on disk failure, maybe the other reasons you back up are not so obvious.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
unicast reversepath
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Jul 21, 2014, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by akent35 View Post
To that, need to add for you:

I need to crawl back under my 3rd rock.
Such a hostile reply! My apologies if I touched a nerve...

Whatever happened to "Post maturely, and On Topic!" ?

I think it is safe to say that ship has sailed.
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akent35  (op)
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Jul 21, 2014, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Again, I still would like to understand why the OP even started this thread.

He's so apologetic and defensive about his own "backup" strategy that I don't buy the "trying to learn something" argument.

At any rate, this *is* entertaining. Can't wait for this backup strategy to blow up. There's going to be some mighty fine "told ya so" moments.

-t
I actually learned quite a bit more about Time Machine, and if I ever feel the need to use it, the knowledge I got here definitely helps. As to whether you, turtle777, buys it or not, I don't care. I did learn a few things, both about other approaches and about some folks around here.

And, at least I do not stick words in people's mouths. I never said my strategy was perfect, but like others, you cannot point where I said that, nor will you admit you made an incorrect statement.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 21, 2014, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It probably won't blow up, the probability is very low for a failure and a corrupt clone and/or damage to significant files to happen simultaneously, so this thread is a nerd fight, but still, it's hard for me to comprehend where this disconnect lies and why we can't seem to agree on some facts.

It seems to me that the root of this is personalizing these things in weird ways in saying things like "my backup works for me", and feeling that if one pokes holes in a backup strategy that they are attacking that person or something. This seems to be the only explanation as to why this has gotten strangely emotional.

At the end of the day stuff either lines up with our collective knowledge of data integrity or it doesn't, there is no need for any of this to be personal. Your computer certainly doesn't care if you feel good about your backup
Most of that is very well said. As for "attacking" my strategy, most folks did not do that. They just showed where there are flaws. I even clearly acknowledged that. But, some folks went about that in an immature way, including making inaccurate statements. That is when things got "emotional".

I also pointed out some flaws in other strategies, but I did not (at least initially) "attack" anyone about that. I tried not to use inaccurate statements (including calling a strategy perfect), but when I made an error, I was man enough to "step up to the plate", so to speak, and admit my snafus. Others, though, took a different, immature path. That is when things also got emotional.

In the end, no one approach is ideal. Each has its' advantages, disadvantages, pluses, and minuses. As long as everyone agrees with that basic premise, we should be good to go. As it is, like you so correctly put it, "Your computer certainly doesn't care if you feel good about your backup". Could not have put it any better!
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 21, 2014, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I think that it is what I like to call "maintenance syndrome" - a feeling that you have to do some major maintenance on everything you have, because things need maintenance. This is mostly benign, but in some cases it becomes "the built in thing is too easy, I can make it a different way that is harder and therefore better". On a current Mac, that just not the case. Apple has no interest in you buying other software to maintain it - they want the OS to be all you need, so the built-in thing is either quite good or very hard to replace (like the file system)

And so we get to this. SuperDuper et al have their place - namely, that you can be quickly back from a crash - but lack the versioning and thinning features of Time Machine. This makes it not better, just different, for a different use case. A truck instead of a motorcycle, say. If you were focused on disk failure, maybe the other reasons you back up are not so obvious.
Benign is not the correct term. Unnecessary is better. But, no matter what Apple thinks, or how they try to persuade you, other tools are beneficial, on a number of levels. My weekly use of tools such as Onyx and Tech Tool Pro is, for most folks, "overkill", so to speak. But, I feel comfortable using them, especially with the other things I do between my weekly backups. For me, it is not burdensome, and I do it while doing other productive, non-computer things.

As for the negative aspects of just using Super Duper, namely, the versioning and thinning features of Time Machine, on the flip side, there are the two negative aspects of Time Machine, that is, inability to do a restore in an easy manner (it's a breeze with Super Duper), and the potential time consuming part of trying to recover non-corrupt information from a Time Machine backup. As you said (just trying to be fair and balanced here), those positive aspects of Time Machine do not make it better, just like the use of Super Duper dose not make it better. As you said, each approach is different. And, of course, neither approach is perfect (nor has anyone said such and such an approach is perfect).

Again, I'll just repeat what I previously stated:

1. My backup strategy works for me. (This includes running Oynx and Tech Tool Pro, and Super Duper).

2. Other people choose to use Time Machine. Well and good, and apparently that works for them.

3. Some people choose the best of both worlds. That is, they use Time Machine and an additional tool like Super Duper or Carbon Copy Cloner (or something similar). Again, well and good, and it works for them.

In summary: different strokes for different folks.
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 21, 2014, 04:00 PM
 
I think the fat lady has sung, time to move on … 
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 21, 2014, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think the fat lady has sung, time to move on … 
I hope so, as it looks like we are done (and I can post if I want to).
     
turtle777
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Jul 21, 2014, 06:24 PM
 
Is the fat lady still singing ? ;-)

-t
     
akent35  (op)
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Jul 21, 2014, 07:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Is the fat lady still singing ? ;-)

-t
Uh, turtle777 as the the fat lady still singing. Got it!
     
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Jul 21, 2014, 07:16 PM
 
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