[Simon]

I have a colleague hear at work who's using an old IBM ThinkPad with Suse Linux. He's all over the MBP and wants to buy a Santa Rosa MBP when they come out to replace his old notebook. He's heavily into FOSS and doesn't want to run Mac OS X for that reason - at least not exclusively. He recently asked me about installing Linux on the Mac and I noticed that it had been ages since I last did that (at the time I installed Debian Linux onto my iMac DV+ with its 450 MHz G3). Back in the day people usually recommended Yellow Dog Linux for PPC Macs, but what's the deal now with Intel Macs?

I think he's tending towards Ubuntu or Gentoo. Any experienced users here who have installed one of those onto a MBP? Will they play nicely with the MBP? He's especially interested in reliable sleep, battery life (obviously the battery is what it is, but depending on how the OS uses it battery life can become pretty poor), easy use of built-in hardware (like iSight, FW800, etc.), stuff like that.

[Super Mario]

Ubuntu can't recognise the touchpad and installed a generic ps/2 mouse driver so input was bad. It won't support energy cycling like OS X can. Yellowdog is in better shape but no x86. Even better is to install Fink on OS X and forget Linux.

[ghporter]

Yep, OS X is better integrated and tailored to the hardware of a Mac. And face it, OS X is an evolutionary step from FreeBSD, so it's really a GREAT *nix OS already.

What's FOSS? And I'm surprised that so many pre-Intel Mac Linux distros are ignored here. Knoppix, whatever they're calling Mandrake, and so on, are still good, and may come with decent drivers for current Mac hardware.

[Simon]

As I already said, OS X isn't an option.

So if Ubuntu isn't a decent option, there surely must be another distro that works better with Intel Macs. Any suggestions?

Oh and BTW, FOSS = free and open source software.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Simon 

As I already said, OS X isn't an option....Oh and BTW, FOSS = free and open source software.

The latter explains the former.

At the moment I haven't even tried any Linux distribution on my MBP, so I don't have any suggestions.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Yep, OS X is better integrated and tailored to the hardware of a Mac. And face it, OS X is an evolutionary step from FreeBSD, so it's really a GREAT *nix OS already.

I would call it a divergent step, they both do different things well and have different features sets.

What's FOSS? And I'm surprised that so many pre-Intel Mac Linux distros are ignored here. Knoppix, whatever they're calling Mandrake, and so on, are still good, and may come with decent drivers for current Mac hardware.

FOSS = fully open source


To the original poster: with all due respect to the others here, I wouldn't trust anecdotal hardware experience. Just try running from the Live Ubuntu CD and see how well it works for him, this should make the decision much easier. AFAIK, his best bet is Ubuntu. I don't think Mac laptop support (or even laptop support in general) is a huge focal point for the Gentoo devs right now.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Simon 

As I already said, OS X isn't an option.

So if Ubuntu isn't a decent option, there surely must be another distro that works better with Intel Macs. Any suggestions?

Oh and BTW, FOSS = free and open source software.

Yellow Dog Linux, it is RedHat like.

[Simon]

I thought YD was for PPC.

[ghporter]

Yes it is for PPC. See their home page. I've seen something about a Mac-tweaked version of Knoppix somewhere. Knoppix is a Debian-based version.

[besson3c]

Ahhh... didn't know that. Don't follow Mac LInux distributions closely.

[tavin64]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Ubuntu can't recognise the touchpad and installed a generic ps/2 mouse driver so input was bad. It won't support energy cycling like OS X can. Yellowdog is in better shape but no x86. Even better is to install Fink on OS X and forget Linux.

I wonder when was the last time you tried Ubuntu? Everything you have said is completely false. Ubuntu Feisty recognizes everything on the macbook and even 2 finger scrolling works. You can even configure the touchpad for 2 finger right click on tapping. Even power management is supported through the smart battery if you install the cpufrequtils package.

Ubuntu and Gentoo right now offer the best support for the macbooks in terms of hardware detection.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by tavin64 

I wonder when was the last time you tried Ubuntu? Everything you have said is completely false. Ubuntu Feisty recognizes everything on the macbook and even 2 finger scrolling works. You can even configure the touchpad for 2 finger right click on tapping. Even power management is supported through the smart battery if you install the cpufrequtils package.

Ubuntu and Gentoo right now offer the best support for the macbooks in terms of hardware detection.

Are you going a real install or using it through Parallels? I had no touchpad recognition with 7.04 , no scrolling, no two finger right click, no right click at all.

I see no reason not to use Fink if it is available on x86.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Are you going a real install or using it through Parallels? I had no touchpad recognition with 7.04 , no scrolling, no two finger right click, no right click at all.

I see no reason not to use Fink if it is available on x86.

What hardware is Parallels emulating? If you were using Parallels, this would explain why your experience differs. Perhaps you should read up on getting Ubuntu to work in Parallels? There seems to be a lot of people using Ubuntu with the generic hardware set provided by Parallels.

As far as Fink/Macports go, they are decent ways to get some applications working in OS X (the GUI apps typically under X11), but there are a ton of other reasons why one may actually wish to run Linux and KDE/Gnome/Enlightenment rather than OS X.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What hardware is Parallels emulating? If you were using Parallels, this would explain why your experience differs. Perhaps you should read up on getting Ubuntu to work in Parallels?

I didn't say I installed it in Parallels. I was asking him if he did. And I wish you would stop cutting in on others and trying to sound like an expert when you're nowhere close to knowing any of the stuff you claim to.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

I didn't say I installed it in Parallels. I was asking him if he did. And I wish you would stop cutting in on others and trying to sound like an expert when you're nowhere close to knowing any of the stuff you claim to.

What is the basis of your claim that I don't know anything about Linux? My lack of experience installing distros on Macs? I make my living in Linux and Unix. In relation to the rest of this board, while I concede that there is plenty that I don't know, I think I do pretty well - certainly well enough to weigh in on these sorts of issues.

Not that the facts always matter in forums like this, but...

By the way, what was your intended purpose of your little cheap shot here?

[tavin64]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Are you going a real install or using it through Parallels? I had no touchpad recognition with 7.04 , no scrolling, no two finger right click, no right click at all.

I see no reason not to use Fink if it is available on x86.

I dual boot Ubuntu and OSX. I have more experience with vmware over parallels because they offer better linux support. Don't get me wrong, parallels is a great product but vmware fusion even in its beta stages has passed it in terms of support and performance when using operating systems other than windows.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by tavin64 

I dual boot Ubuntu and OSX. I have more experience with vmware over parallels because they offer better linux support. Don't get me wrong, parallels is a great product but vmware fusion even in its beta stages has passed it in terms of support and performance when using operating systems other than windows.

Mine was a proper hard install too but dammit Ubuntu didn't pick the right input driver. Battery life was less with Ubuntu installed also.

Back to Simon, your mate could use Parallels (if he doesn't mind paying for something) or vmware if not fink.

[Simon]

No, he's a Linux guy who simply wants decent hardware. He's not interested in OS X or laying out for Parallels.

I was thrilled when I read tavin64's Ubuntu Feisty experience. So I quickly downloaded the Live CD image and tried it out myself. KB support was wacky, sleep didn't work, and X wouldn't launch because it couldn't manage the widescreen display. I'm guessing these are issues with the Live CD rather than with Ubuntu itself. But I've got a lot of work to do right now and I'm not interested in digging through all the ugliness myself right now.

Any other reports on MBP running Ubuntu natively?

[tavin64]

Originally Posted by Simon 

No, he's a Linux guy who simply wants decent hardware. He's not interested in OS X or laying out for Parallels.

I was thrilled when I read tavin64's Ubuntu Feisty experience. So I quickly downloaded the Live CD image and tried it out myself. KB support was wacky, sleep didn't work, and X wouldn't launch because it couldn't manage the widescreen display. I'm guessing these are issues with the Live CD rather than with Ubuntu itself. But I've got a lot of work to do right now and I'm not interested in digging through all the ugliness myself right now.

Any other reports on MBP running Ubuntu natively?

This is the wiki for Ubuntu on Macbook Pro:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacBookPro
And another guide which is more updated:
Linux on Apple Laptops | revis.org

Also covers how to triple boot OSX, Ubuntu, and XP as well.

[alsorr]

I'm the guy from the last link you posted (revis.org | a curious mix of fact and fiction)

Might I say, gosh, what a lot of flaming.

Anyway, I do run Linux on a MBP (and on a Powerbook, both still have OSX for firmware updates but wouldn't if I could get a refund, even Microsoft will give you a refund for Windows... but I digress.)

Generally it's a pretty good experience. Because Macs are mostly standard hardware good drivers tend to get written. Any Mac that is over 9 months old will have top notch support, anything under six months... it'll depend what got changed in the latest revision and the driver/distro release cycles.

At present all my hardware works, including wireless, suspend, track pad gestures, bluetooth etc etc. Head banging quota is about 2/10 - equivalent to a Windows install if you haven't got the manf. driver CD.

By the time Ubuntu 7.10 is released (October 2007) this should be reduced to 1/10 as up to date wireless drivers will be included in the standard CD (working ones for the new (unannounced) wireless card revision were released too late for 7.04, but it's not hard to install them yourself).

Why run Linux on a Mac instead of on a Dell? The Mac is cheaper for the same hardware and much better built. My powerbook survived a 1m drop onto concrete.

Why run Linux on a Mac instead of OS X? Lots of reasons, but I think this probably isn't the best place to post the list of rant It's always surprised me that Apple hasn't given more support to people running Linux on their hardware... a sale is a sale after all, and it's better than someone running Windows from the point of view of interoperability and standards. If they can do drivers for Vista they should be able to chuck a dev at helping out with the Linux drivers.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by alsorr 

I'm the guy from the last link you posted (revis.org | a curious mix of fact and fiction)

Might I say, gosh, what a lot of flaming.

Anyway, I do run Linux on a MBP (and on a Powerbook, both still have OSX for firmware updates but wouldn't if I could get a refund, even Microsoft will give you a refund for Windows... but I digress.)

Generally it's a pretty good experience. Because Macs are mostly standard hardware good drivers tend to get written. Any Mac that is over 9 months old will have top notch support, anything under six months... it'll depend what got changed in the latest revision and the driver/distro release cycles.

At present all my hardware works, including wireless, suspend, track pad gestures, bluetooth etc etc. Head banging quota is about 2/10 - equivalent to a Windows install if you haven't got the manf. driver CD.

By the time Ubuntu 7.10 is released (October 2007) this should be reduced to 1/10 as up to date wireless drivers will be included in the standard CD (working ones for the new (unannounced) wireless card revision were released too late for 7.04, but it's not hard to install them yourself).

Why run Linux on a Mac instead of on a Dell? The Mac is cheaper for the same hardware and much better built. My powerbook survived a 1m drop onto concrete.

Why run Linux on a Mac instead of OS X? Lots of reasons, but I think this probably isn't the best place to post the list of rant It's always surprised me that Apple hasn't given more support to people running Linux on their hardware... a sale is a sale after all, and it's better than someone running Windows from the point of view of interoperability and standards. If they can do drivers for Vista they should be able to chuck a dev at helping out with the Linux drivers.

You aren't the only one who feels this way...

I'm experimenting with switching over my work computer to Ubuntu, and so far it has worked out well. One immediate benefit is that performance of reading and writing to network volumes is infinitely better. I don't think many Mac users have any clue just how god awful the Finder is... It really does suck. Also, overall system responsiveness is much higher even comparing this lesser Dell to my Macbook Pro.

OS X is no performance champ. I used to think that this was simply because Quartz is doing more (drop shadows, anti-aliasing, double buffered windows, etc.), but now I think it just isn't particularly well optimized, as there is a noticeable gain in performance doing even simple things under Gnome, perhaps YMMV.

I'm still trying to get used to the different key bindings, this will require some time. My next laptop will still be an Apple laptop though, because I have no qualms with how Apple designs hardware. OS X is perhaps simply not designed for people like us, but for people who prefer to ride the comfortable Apple bubble. That's cool.

[alsorr]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't think many Mac users have any clue just how god awful the Finder is...

I believe Finder is being fixed in 10.5... and about time too. It's actually worse than Explorer in Windows. Hopefully they are importing the rest of Konqueror + KParts which together really are outstanding.

With virtual desktops showing up that would clear two of the reasons I won't use OSX off my list. Only about 23 more to go

Anyway OSX is a little more responsive on a dual processor machine than a single processor machine (the same as Windows is). They both still beachball at you more often than Linux on a single processor though :/

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by alsorr 

I believe Finder is being fixed in 10.5... and about time too. It's actually worse than Explorer in Windows. Hopefully they are importing the rest of Konqueror + KParts which together really are outstanding.

With virtual desktops showing up that would clear two of the reasons I won't use OSX off my list. Only about 23 more to go

Anyway OSX is a little more responsive on a dual processor machine than a single processor machine (the same as Windows is). They both still beachball at you more often than Linux on a single processor though :/

There are some free virtual desktop implementations for OS X, but the ones I've used seem rather quirky and/or buggy.

OS X makes a decent client OS, I guess, but I still haven't figured out what makes OS X Server worth Apple's ROI.

[mavherzog]

If you friend wants to stick with linux, I don't see any compelling reason to go with a MBP. Have him buy a new Thinkpad (which, historically, have excellent hardware support under Linux). And the keyboards are almost as nice as the MacBook's.

[tiger]

I tried linux on my macbook and it would not even boot afterwards, tried mandrake, ubuntu. The computer would not recognize the linuz partition. I know there's some GRUB menu that can be used but i didn't bother much. Someone told me about Fink but I stilld don't quite know what it is but will play around with it.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mavherzog 

If you friend wants to stick with linux, I don't see any compelling reason to go with a MBP. Have him buy a new Thinkpad (which, historically, have excellent hardware support under Linux). And the keyboards are almost as nice as the MacBook's.

Actually he has always had ThinkPads and now he wants to switch to a MBP.

The actual question is which distro and which packages should he go for to get the best Linux on MBP experience.