[Doofy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

No, that's called "law-making." Your political philosophy is hilariously naive.

You don't seem very bright.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Are there things I don't like about where some of my tax money goes? Of course. But looking at in on the whole, it's a social contract I'll agree to continue. If not, I'll either work to change it, or move somewhere where there are better contract terms. What I won't do is whine about it.

Maybe not, but many claim the same as above, and then whine at others about their taxes, while encouraging someone else to constantly raise them, and then insinuate that if they don't go along with this, terrible things will happen because we're essentially paying 'hush money' to the unwashed masses who otherwise can't keep themselves from behaving like animals.

If this wasn't the case, and everyone really had a "I mind my own business" attitude when it came to taxes, then there wouldn't even be any argument over income redistribution.

I agree. And - those always complaining about how a small portion of their tax money goes to poor, lazy people who don't deserve it = whiners. It cuts both ways.

So the flip side of this is, income redistribution really DOESN'T have any benefit to those footing the bill for it that outweigh the negatives, does it?

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

If you're earning $48k a year or better, you're in the 1%.

Perhaps, but if I lived somewhere where there were no taxes, I doubt I'd be making $48k or better. I'm not in the 1% of the 300M or so living under the social contract I'm living under.

You agreed to the social contract?

Yes, I did. I drive on roads. I breathe the (relatively) clean air and drink the (relatively) clean water that is piped into my house. I can call for police and fire services if I need them, and have an army protecting the interests of my society (with arguably inconsistent results, obviously, but still...). I have a court system to turn to if I have a dispute that needs to be mediated. The list goes on...

If you do those types of things and don't pay taxes to support them, then you're no better than people who steal music by downloading from the internet.

You put wet signature on it?

See above. In a sense, yes.

What about those people who don't agree to it?

They're welcome to leave and find a place where they can create their own society with its own costs and benefits.

You're going to force them to agree to it anyways, are you not? That's called "bullying".

Nope. They're welcome to leave.

What's your solution for them? They move to somewhere with a better contract?

Yep. Or work to change the contract to what works for them.

So why don't the gay/pimply kids move to a school where there's a better "bullying contract"? Whiners!

As has been noted, this is a false equivalency. The gay/pimply kids aren't garnering any benefits out of being 'bullied.' Now, if the bullies were turning around and donating the fruits of their actions to the PTA fund or something, maybe it'd be different....

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Maybe not, but many claim the same as above, and then whine at others about their taxes, while encouraging someone else to constantly raise them, and then insinuate that if they don't go along with this, terrible things will happen because we're essentially paying 'hush money' to the unwashed masses who otherwise can't keep themselves from behaving like animals.

If this wasn't the case, and everyone really had a "I mind my own business" attitude when it came to taxes, then there wouldn't even be any argument over income redistribution.

You're really angry at the strawman in your mind, aren't you?

So the flip side of this is, income redistribution really DOESN'T have any benefit to those footing the bill for it that outweigh the negatives, does it?

Depends what type of society they want to live in and benefit from.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

You don't seem very bright.

This place was certainly brighter when you left to sulk with Railroader for a few weeks. Maybe you could go do that some more instead of derailing threads about bullied kids.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

So the flip side of this is, income redistribution really DOESN'T have any benefit to those footing the bill for it that outweigh the negatives, does it?

Really? Because free public education hasn't helped the businessmen of the world hire a more capable workforce? Because welfare hasn't mostly cleared the streets of beggars, pick-picking youths, and prostitutes, and you'd prefer to live in a nightmarish Dickens' novel? Because giving free vaccinations to children and large grants to scientists hasn't benefited the world at all?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

This place was certainly brighter when you left to sulk with Railroader for a few weeks.

You're pathetic mckenna.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Perhaps, but if I lived somewhere where there were no taxes, I doubt I'd be making $48k or better.

Really?

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I drive on roads.

Road tax.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I breathe the (relatively) clean air

Air is free.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

drink the (relatively) clean water that is piped into my house.

That'll be your utilities bill.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I can call for police and fire services if I need them

That'll be your community charge.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

and have an army protecting the interests of my society

By bullying other societies... ...you just can't help it, can you? Unless there's been an invasion of your country which I'm unaware of?

None of this requires "give us half your crap" bullying from a government.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Road tax.

Well there's a tax. Isn't that the 'bullying' you're talking about? Anyway, around here, not all roads are paid for through the same financial models.

Air is free.

Yes, but air that isn't full of pollutants isn't.

That'll be your utilities bill.

Perhaps for the 'piped into my house' part (which, by the way, is also a bill that goes to local government - fancy that). But not the part about ample (i.e. cheap) potable water.

That'll be your community charge.

Ah - another tax I'm 'bullied' to pay!

By bullying other societies... ...you just can't help it, can you? Unless there's been an invasion of your country which I'm unaware of?

I already conceded some of the things they do are disagreeable. I still benefit from their presence, particularly if there were an invasion.

None of this requires "give us half your crap" bullying from a government.

Well then it's a good thing I'm not giving them half my crap.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Unless there's been an invasion of your country which I'm unaware of?

It must be working

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

You're really angry at the strawman in your mind, aren't you?

Not to worry, I don't expect much of substance from you.

Depends what type of society they want to live in and benefit from.

Maybe one where busibodies aren't always screaming to take their money and property?

We can go all over the world and see societies where governments every bit as heavy-handed as you dream of are in charge of everything, and steal all the wealth from anyone who dares have it in some bullcrap idea of 'fairness'. They're called SHITHOLES.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Really? Because free public education hasn't helped the businessmen of the world hire a more capable workforce?

Ha! What passes for public education in this country hasn't produced a capable workforce, it's produced a barely literate bunch of entitled ninnies who are outdone at every turn by their foreign counterparts that spend a fraction of the same amounts on education.

The company I work for has to go to great lengths to find qualified people that actually know what they're doing and aren't just navel-gazers whining about how much vacation time do they get. It's literally a joke that anyone is finding these skilled people among those with only a crappy public school education, or even for that matter, without looking OUTSIDE the country.

Because welfare hasn't mostly cleared the streets of beggars, pick-picking youths, and prostitutes, and you'd prefer to live in a nightmarish Dickens' novel?

Heh. Perfect illustration of the 'veiled threat' that I was talking about. Yes, unless we pony up for endless welfare, everyone will become an animal unable to control themselves! Quick, everyone allow yourselves to be fleeced in ever-increasing amounts at the whim of busibodies, or else you'll be living in a nightmarish Dickens novel! Oh the horrors!

Meanwhile, ignore the fact that since the whole 'Great Society' welfare nanny-state got going full-tilt, entire segments of the population have become dependent, the family unit totally destroyed, the rates of children having children skyrocketed, poverty has actually INCREASED, not decreased, and on and on.

All your welfare nanny-state nonsense hasn't produced SQUAT.

Because giving free vaccinations to children and large grants to scientists hasn't benefited the world at all?

I'm sure this can only be accomplished with income redistribution ponzi schemes, and big government debt piled so high that our grandchildrens' grandchildren will still be paying it off.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Not to worry, I don't expect much of substance from you.

Well, all I expect from you are random unfocused rants. You never disappoint.

Maybe one where busibodies aren't always screaming to take their money and property?

We can go all over the world and see societies where governments every bit as heavy-handed as you dream of are in charge of everything, and steal all the wealth from anyone who dares have it in some bullcrap idea of 'fairness'. They're called SHITHOLES.

Once again, not disappointed. Random unfocused rants about points no one made. Yep. Just angry at the strawman in your mind.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I'm tired of being bullied by you so, here goes...


You're being deliberately thick. For the third time and more for the benefit of anyone else at this point; bullying is bullying. Hate crimes are something else entirely and already legislated at the Federal level, most states/cities, and local school districts. Bullying is bullying. Kids shoved into lockers, shoved down, punched, money or material taken. If bullying is no different than assault, "anti-bullying laws" are redundant and unnecessary. The truth is there is a difference which means, many are isolated and harassed for any difference or vulnerability. Yes, including acne and personal appearance which, if not among the most fundamental aspects of a child's self-image, I don't know what is. You'll find a way to marginalize it of course, but that's not because you've put any real thought into what you're saying. And no, you'll not be getting my lunch money today.


It wasn't a comparison. That's all you. Otherwise, I'm full of surprises which likely makes me more fun to talk to.

So, at what point does bullying become hate crime territory in your estimation?

The problem here I think is that you are taking the legal framework of bullying without considering whether there needs to be a distinction between race or sexual orientation driven bullying vs. just stupid school yard bullying the physically weak kid type stuff. I'm not necessarily suggesting that these kids should be treated as hate crime offenders, but the severity of the situation needs to be impressed upon them more so than just picking on the weak kid type bullying.

Bullying can include more than just physically hurting people, right? Is calling black people niggers considered a form of bullying?

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Ha! What passes for public education in this country hasn't produced a capable workforce, it's produced a barely literate bunch of entitled ninnies who are outdone at every turn by their foreign counterparts that spend a fraction of the same amounts on education.

The company I work for has to go to great lengths to find qualified people that actually know what they're doing and aren't just navel-gazers whining about how much vacation time do they get. It's literally a joke that anyone is finding these skilled people among those with only a crappy public school education, or even for that matter, without looking OUTSIDE the country.

Right, as if there aren't smart kids coming out of the education system all the time. Maybe if your company worked a little harder and competed for better talent, you'd be better off and wouldn't need to rant about things you obviously know little about because you can't look at them objectively. My company has hired quite a few young, smart people (yes, from public schools) in recent years who are making valuable contributions, and profits are growing.

Open your eyes, try looking at what's really going on rather than just focusing on what fits your pointless narrative, and you might accidentally stumble upon something productive.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Good.luck.with.that.

I do it every time, the TSA people get a good laugh out of it and I move on quickly. If you approach it with humor and a smile they pass you over so they can get to other things. If you're pissy and annoyed, your time with them is long and uncomfortable for everyone involved.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

So, at what point does bullying become hate crime territory in your estimation?

Depends on what hate crime territory is to you. If a gay person shoves another gay person into a locker, is that a hate crime?

The problem here I think is that you are taking the legal framework of bullying without considering whether there needs to be a distinction between race or sexual orientation driven bullying vs. just stupid school yard bullying the physically weak kid type stuff.

There seems to be at least strong, anecdotal evidence that gay kids are not coming out while still in school. Acts against them would merely be an act against perceived physical weakness which can be any of the things we've mentioned in this thread. Bullies often seize on the vulnerabilities they see in themselves and lash out.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that these kids should be treated as hate crime offenders, but the severity of the situation needs to be impressed upon them more so than just picking on the weak kid type bullying.

Why, because you've decided that all of the other perceived weaknesses have less bearing on one's self-image than their sexual orientation? I disagree. If it's more than the stupid school yard bullying the physically weak kid type stuff, it's assault. If it's assault and further investigation reveals acts that fall under the hate crimes legislation of that city or state, so be it.

Bullying can include more than just physically hurting people, right? Is calling black people niggers considered a form of bullying?

Not clearly. In fact it can be two black kids ribbin' one another. If it's bullying, it should be addressed by the school administration. If it's assault, it should be dealt with using the laws of the city or state. You don't think a kid charged with some form of hate crime that follows him from school to school is bad for that kid? What if he's learned his lesson or received help for his own problems? We already have a system that's exponentially more harsh on male offenders than female offenders, I don't think elevating the charges is going to help the gay kid or the bully quite frankly. We should treat the acts of children within the confines of an institution that addresses children. If the offense is more egregious, it should be reported to the police.

Otherwise, why not charge them with terrorism to make the point?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Random unfocused rant that only fits a pointless narrative.

Gee, it's so easy to mount CreepDogg/public education level 'debate'. No thought required.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Gee, it's so easy to refute CRASH HARDDRIVE/angry rant 'debate'. No thought necessary.

ftfy

Now, I'll admit that I just matched your unconvincing anecdote with one of my own. You want a demonstration of why that's all your angry rant deserves? OK. Let's dig a little deeper into your argument, shall we?

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Ha! What passes for public education in this country hasn't produced a capable workforce, it's produced a barely literate bunch of entitled ninnies who are outdone at every turn by their foreign counterparts that spend a fraction of the same amounts on education.

The company I work for has to go to great lengths to find qualified people that actually know what they're doing and aren't just navel-gazers whining about how much vacation time do they get. It's literally a joke that anyone is finding these skilled people among those with only a crappy public school education, or even for that matter, without looking OUTSIDE the country.

So in the context of the conversation, which was the level of benefit of public education to society, you come up with this rant. When I read it in context, your point seems to be:

1) The US public education system outputs some students of questionable ability. My company can't hire any good ones.
2) Other countries' public education systems do it better.
3) Therefore, all public education is bad.

Whoa, man. Yeah - that's deep stuff.

When you take out all the angry rant language, all I see is a laughable statement. Want deeper debate? Come up with some yourself. You reap what you sow.

[Cold Warrior]

A number of you have received personal attack infractions here, some more than one. It won't take much more before temp bans kick in. Keep an eye on that point total and a hard copy of the rules as you go about your business.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Depends on what hate crime territory is to you. If a gay person shoves another gay person into a locker, is that a hate crime?

I don't know how to define it legally, but I believe that beating somebody up because they are gay would qualify among adults. That kids are involved makes this murky, and proving that the kid was beaten up because he was gay likewise, but my original point was that this is different than beating up somebody because they are pimply faced. Agreed?

There seems to be at least strong, anecdotal evidence that gay kids are not coming out while still in school.

So? If a rape victim doesn't come out does that mean the raping didn't take place?

Why, because you've decided that all of the other perceived weaknesses have less bearing on one's self-image than their sexual orientation? I disagree. If it's more than the stupid school yard bullying the physically weak kid type stuff, it's assault. If it's assault and further investigation reveals acts that fall under the hate crimes legislation of that city or state, so be it.

Assault, hate crime stuff, I don't really know or care how it qualifies. My point is that this is assault because somebody is pimply faced is in a totally different league than assault because somebody is gay.

Not clearly. In fact it can be two black kids ribbin' one another. If it's bullying, it should be addressed by the school administration. If it's assault, it should be dealt with using the laws of the city or state. You don't think a kid charged with some form of hate crime that follows him from school to school is bad for that kid? What if he's learned his lesson or received help for his own problems? We already have a system that's exponentially more harsh on male offenders than female offenders, I don't think elevating the charges is going to help the gay kid or the bully quite frankly. We should treat the acts of children within the confines of an institution that addresses children. If the offense is more egregious, it should be reported to the police.

Otherwise, why not charge them with terrorism to make the point?

I don't disagree. I hope you get my original point.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

A number of you have received personal attack infractions here, some more than one. It won't take much more before temp bans kick in. Keep an eye on that point total and a hard copy of the rules as you go about your business.

I was actually snorting when I read this, so I took your advice and double checked my points.

Since points are normally considered a good thing in life, maybe they should be called something else? How about "infractions"?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

So in the context of the conversation, which was the level of benefit of public education to society

That wasn't the context of the conversation.

1) The US public education system outputs some students of questionable ability. My company can't hire any good ones.

The smart people already work for the company I work for, and many others. The rest have unfortunately been left woefully unprepared for the workforce, especially in this leaner and meaner day and age. Being robbed of a proper education by rotten public schools is a big part of that problem.

2) Other countries' public education systems do it better.

No, other societies do it better. You're simply making things up. I've seen dirt poor kids from third world countries that spend exactly squat on public education, waltz in to do highly skilled jobs FAR better than adults here that are pampered and coddled in comparison.

It's because the emphasis their families, societies and cultures place on actual KNOWLEDGE and not just being a navel-gazing slug that whines boo hoo how unfair that someone else makes more money than they do, means they've actually been taught how to learn and an emphasis that actual learning is important. The thing that many of those societies lack though, is the opportunities.

A real education doesn't cost endless boatloads of money, it doesn't require bloated unions, it doesn't require 4 administrators for every 10 kids, and it doesn't require a big bloated government stealing ever-increasing amounts of everyone's money and creating nothing but debt with it.

3) Therefore, all public education is bad.

Who is it that's jousting against strawmen again? You just made this up, no one else said any such thing. Try comprehending the larger point. Better yet, don't even try.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

That wasn't the context of the conversation.

Go back and read lpkmckenna's post that brought this up. It's no wonder you go on angry rants if you can't follow the conversation.

The smart people already work for the company I work for, and many others. The rest have unfortunately been left woefully unprepared for the workforce, especially in this leaner and meaner day and age. Being robbed of a proper education by rotten public schools is a big part of that problem.

Um, OK? There are smart people (who already have jobs) and there are no-so-smart people in the world (who apparently don't)? Yep - clearly it's public education's fault that smart people are smart and dumb people are dumb.

No, other societies do it better. You're simply making things up. I've seen dirt poor kids from third world countries that spend exactly squat on public education, waltz in to do highly skilled jobs FAR better than adults here that are pampered and coddled in comparison.

Again with the unconvincing anecdotes. Yes, there are smart poor kids from third world countries, and dumb rich kids in first world countries. Tell me something I don't know.

It's because the emphasis their families, societies and cultures place on actual KNOWLEDGE and not just being a navel-gazing slug that whines boo hoo how unfair that someone else makes more money than they do, means they've actually been taught how to learn and an emphasis that actual learning is important. The thing that many of those societies lack though, is the opportunities.

A real education doesn't cost endless boatloads of money, it doesn't require bloated unions, it doesn't require 4 administrators for every 10 kids, and it doesn't require a big bloated government stealing ever-increasing amounts of everyone's money and creating nothing but debt with it.

Once again, um, OK? Another sign of angry rants - arguing points that are not in dispute. Who said that public education has to be expensive to have value? I think it's pretty clear who's making things up.

Who is it that's jousting against strawmen again? You just made this up, no one else said any such thing. Try comprehending the larger point. Better yet, don't even try.

I suppose I made the mistake of assuming you had some level of reading comprehension and could understand context. In context, this was the only reasonable conclusion. Since you're disputing this - fine, I'll ask - what was your point, exactly? Seeing as how lpk's comment was pointing out the value of public education to societies around the world - Are you disputing that and saying it has no value?

[frank28]

Schools need to take the issue of bullying seriously. Stop thinking of it as simply meeting a criteria or another legislative overreaching demand. Creating an atmosphere of safety and zero tolerance, where bullying is simply understood as unacceptable, is critical to the long lasting change and ensuring youth security and well being. Assemblies with staff will not accomplish this. It’s about culture change.

Let’s work together to keep children and adolescents safe this school year!