[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I'm responding to someones argument about economy of scale about 3 pages back.

Sony is losing sh*tloads of money of the PS3. Sony is lost over 800 million dollars the previous quarter on the PS3 division having to sell the PS3 at a huge lost. Sony needs to be profitable on the PS3 division soon or it'll be in serious trouble.

Actually Sony is planing on being profitable this year on the PS3. The PS3 is all about long term, if BR wins they will make piles of money over the next 5-10 years.

Just look at the PS2.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh trust me, HD-DVD fans know it is show over for HD and movies. Why do you think since the announcement the discussion has suddenly moved to "we don't need anything on optical, we should all just download them".

I made the same argument as I did back in November when I purchase my HDDVD player. Most people are happy with their DVD players and aren't willing to spend the extra money on Hidef. Most people don't have a Hidef set or a surround sound.

My argument has always been the same. The Hidef standards need more than just better picture quality and audio quality over DVD. It needs something else to distinguish itself from DVD such as PIP and web interactivity. Those arguments haven't changed.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Actually Sony is planing on being profitable this year on the PS3. The PS3 is all about long term, if BR wins they will make piles of money over the next 5-10 years.

Just look at the PS2.

Of course Sony plans to be profitable this year. It plans to be profitable last year. They also plan that HDDVD is dead 6 months ago.

When you are selling PS3 at a huge lost, attachment rates matters a lot. Attachment rates is horrible for both Bluray movies and PS3 games. It's not enough to cover the lost.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Actually Sony is planing on being profitable this year on the PS3. The PS3 is all about long term, if BR wins they will make piles of money over the next 5-10 years.

Just look at the PS2.

The PS2 is still successful because it's building on it's past success. It has a huge library of cheap games. If the PS3 remains in third, it won't have the same legs the PS1 and PS2 had.

[TETENAL]

I'm not a native speaker either, but I think it's called "the loss".

Anyway, attachment rates matter (of games especially), but what matters the more is profit over the lifespan of the console. What they lose now they will earn in the later years of the console lifespan. Just like they did with the Playstation 2.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

PSP Blu-ray Transfer: Everything You Wanted to Know About Blu-ray-to-PSP Movie Transfers

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Of course Sony plans to be profitable this year. It plans to be profitable last year. They also plan that HDDVD is dead 6 months ago.

When you are selling PS3 at a huge lost, attachment rates matters a lot. Attachment rates is horrible for both Bluray movies and PS3 games. It's not enough to cover the lost.

Oh gimmie a break. Toshiba was losing money on every HD-DVD player in hopes it would win. You wanna talk losses look at them.

And again BR attachment rate is better.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

PSP Blu-ray Transfer: Everything You Wanted to Know About Blu-ray-to-PSP Movie Transfers

So Sony gave up on UMD finally?

Sony admitting not everyone cares about Hidef and people might want to watch the movie in much lower quality on a PSP instead?

[climber]

Originally Posted by ort888 

I think downloads, DVDs and Blu-ray can and will co-exist. They have to.

I don't think DVD are going away anytime soon and Blu-ray will probably never surpass DVD. Blu-ray will always be a fringe product. It will be viable, but fringe. At best I think we'll see Blu-ray with about 25% of the sales of DVD.

Downloads will eventually win, but it will be about 5-10 years before it's convenient enough to make a huge dent.

While I think the software side of things may go the way you are saying, I think the hardware will mostly be Blu-ray in the not to distant future. It was not that long ago that most DVD players did not upscale video or HDMI ports. Now it is pretty hard to find one that won't. I do not see manufactures adding to their DVD player lineup in the future, but I do see them adding Blu-ray capabilities. Joe consumer only cares that it will still play his existing DVD collection, and will be thrilled that it can do proper HD on his new TV. The public will be snapping them up in comparison to the last year. Just look at the TV's in Best buy right now, how many SD sets do they sell. Very soon the same will be the case for DVD players.

I think a lot of people have stood on the sidelines during this little format war, I know I did. But now that a clear winner is in sight, I have finally ordered my player. I am getting the new Denon 3800. It is a very expensive player (at $2,000), but I am hooking it up to 800 series B&W's powered by a Anthem amp and preamp.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh gimmie a break. Toshiba was losing money on every HD-DVD player in hopes it would win. You wanna talk losses look at them.

Very true.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

And again BR attachment rate is better.

Not even close.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

In player sales they're right about there (total of 131.9 million DVD players sold as of 8/03/07). But in disc sales I wouldn't believe it.

I was specifically talking about disc sales, although I'm not sure if they're talking revenue or unit sales.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

And again BR attachment rate is better.

I get the impression that you don't know what the term "attachment rate" means. You've said this several times, but it's simply wrong. The BD disc attachment sales rate is quite a bit lower. Attachment rate is discs sold per player, not overall discs sold.

[hyteckit]

I was at the Sony booth during CES looking at the PSP. They have Resident Evil playing on it. I think it's UMD format. Video quality looks absolutely freaking horrible. Movies and TV shows from iTunes look much better.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh gimmie a break. Toshiba was losing money on every HD-DVD player in hopes it would win. You wanna talk losses look at them.

And again BR attachment rate is better.

Again, attachment rate for Bluray is about 1 and for HDDVD it's about 2.67. Attachment rate for HDDVD is 267% the rate of Bluray.

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I'm responding to someones argument about economy of scale about 3 pages back.

Sony is losing sh*tloads of money of the PS3. Sony is lost over 800 million dollars the previous quarter on the PS3 division having to sell the PS3 at a huge lost. Sony needs to be profitable on the PS3 division soon or it'll be in serious trouble.

If everyone is just buying PS3 as a Bluray player, Sony is in deep sh*t. The more people buy PS3, the more money Sony losses. The attachment rate for Bluray movies to PS3 is about 1. Hardly enough to cover the loss of $200 to $300 per PS3 sold.

Seriously, get some perspective! Especially long term perspective. You keep mentioning the previous quarter but fail to consider the next 5-10 years. As I've noted before, the game console industry is unique and not equally comparable to computers or even consumer electronics. You seem to gloss over words just like you gloss over HD DVD standalone sales numbers to fit your own prejudices, so perhaps you should reread the distinctions there.

And you think manufacturing costs on the PS3 are fixed for all eternity? Here's a hint, they're not. Component prices and thus manufacturing costs continue to go down, not merely as a factor of how many units are sold, but because economy of scale in terms of the parts in the PS3 from last year are largely going to be the same parts that go into the PS3s of next year or two, three years from now. (Think how many times the PS2 got a product refresh in its 7 year product life.) Sony can therefore place a huge order on components knowing with certainty that the same components will be used in millions of units from those on the assembly line right now to units that haven't even manufactured yet. (As an aside, Sony took a huge loss early on with the inclusion of a Blu-ray drive because the blue laser that reads HD media was in short supply (and thus expensive) -- not so anymore.) You don't have the same economies of scale with computers for obvious reasons and CE standalones get product refreshes at least every year. In turn, all these product refreshes require occasional and significant component updates that place an inherent limit on the number of components that are manufactured, lest they become obsolete before they're put into an end product. Again, the PS3 and game consoles in general are not as tightly subject to such limitations and during their lifetimes will see price reductions that are a factor of progressively lower manufacturing costs, and do realize profitability per unit for their manufacturers.

[Eug]

Toshiba HD DVD press conference at CES (Video)

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I was at the Sony booth during CES looking at the PSP. They have Resident Evil playing on it. I think it's UMD format. Video quality looks absolutely freaking horrible. Movies and TV shows from iTunes look much better.

Really? Stuff on iTunes looks pretty bad (although it would look pretty good on an iPod).

[pooka]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

PSP Blu-ray Transfer: Everything You Wanted to Know About Blu-ray-to-PSP Movie Transfers

So.. umm.. it's essentially useless unless you're already part of the Sony ecosystem. Nice. Score one for the people.

[hyteckit]

It you are losing $800 million per quarter, can you really last 5 years? How many billions of dollars can Sony lose a year? They already sold off their cell processor division to Toshiba from what I've heard. Toshiba was even demonstrating the Cell processor at CES.

If you average to about $500 million per quarter in loss, that's $2 billion in loss for the year in the PS3 division.

[hyteckit]

I think a few here are more Sony and PS3 fanboys rather than Bluray fans.

[climber]

I think the attachment rate for both Blu and HD-DVD were affected by the format war. It is one thing to buy a player that costs a couple of hundred bucks, but will still play DVD's without an issues. It is quite another to start a collection of disks that may or may not be playable on hardware sold next year. I almost bought the Sony unit just to rent from Blockbuser, but the selection of rentals is still horrible.

Now that the war is effectively over, I think you will start to see very rapid sales in Blu-ray disks. Likewise you will see a very drastic decrease in HD-DVD disks. I think at this point even Toshiba gets it. All the manufactures and the rest of the studios will be looking how to get off the HD-DVD ship before it finishes sinking. My intuitive guess is that really means emptying the existing channels of inventory. They would have to be nuts to keep making players at this point. I think that is why Panasonic did not release an new player this week as expected. I do not think that will take more than a couple more months and the hardware will be gone.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

PSP Blu-ray Transfer: Everything You Wanted to Know About Blu-ray-to-PSP Movie Transfers

Yep, I'll pass on this.

I can't believe after this people seriously suggest that Bluray is not a Sony run format.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Really? Stuff on iTunes looks pretty bad (although it would look pretty good on an iPod).

Honestly, I've found that your average I-stretch-SD-TV-to-widescreen-on-my-HD-tv-and-call-it-HD consumer has no idea how bad iTunes downloads look.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by climber 

Now that the war is effectively over, I think you will start to see very rapid sales in Blu-ray disks.

I think the BD sales rate will definitely increase, but I'm not sure about "very rapid sales" just yet. It depends on what you mean, but it will take some time. It's not as if every Blu-ray owner is going to run out and buy 25 discs tomorrow.

Likewise you will see a very drastic decrease in HD-DVD disks.

I agree.

I think at this point even Panasonic gets it. All the manufactures and the rest of the studios will be looking how to get off the HD-DVD ship before it finishes sinking. My intuitive guess is that really means emptying the existing channels of inventory. They would have to be nuts to keep making players at this point. I think that is why Panasonic did not release an new player this week as expected. I do not think that will take more than a couple more months and the hardware will be gone.

Huh? Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Willis?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Toshiba HD DVD press conference at CES (Video)


Really? Stuff on iTunes looks pretty bad (although it would look pretty good on an iPod).

TV shows from iTunes look like DVD quality on my iPhone. PSP videos looks like it was showing in 32k colors with color banding and lots of artifact. Look awful. Even my friend who has a PSP and is a Sony fanboy says how bad the movie on PSP looks.

I was at CES checking out the HDDVD presentation. More people than I had anticipated. There are about 30 seats, but about 60 people watching the demonstration of Bourne Ultimatum on HDDVD. There were 30 people just standing around without a seat watching how cool PIP is and how cool the interactive features are.

They didn't mention Bluray, but the presenter said something like "Unlike the other hidef formats, all the cool new features in latest movie such as Bourne Ultimatum works on our earliest HDDVD player such as the HD-A1. The other hidef format won't be able to take full advantage of all the new features on the new release. They force you to upgrade to a new player to take full advantage of the new releases. We don't require you to do that."

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

TV shows from iTunes look like DVD quality on my iPhone.

Err... The iPhone's resolution is 480x320, which is less than half the resolution of DVD.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Err... The iPhone's resolution is 480x320, which is less than half the resolution of DVD.

It's the smaller screen size that makes the difference. iTunes downloads have always looked great on my iPod video or my iPhone.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Err... The iPhone's resolution is 480x320, which is less than half the resolution of DVD.

So, what difference would it make if I was playing DVD quality video or video from iTunes on my iPhone? The video quality looks the same.

[climber]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I think the BD sales rate will definitely increase, but I'm not sure about "very rapid sales" just yet. It depends on what you mean, but it will take some time. It's not as if every Blu-ray owner is going to run out and buy 25 discs tomorrow.

From a percentage standpoint the Blue-ray disk sales will see significant increases. Although as has pointed out it has a long way to exceed DVD raw numbers.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Huh? Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Willis?

Simple. If Toshiba has not already stopped producing players they will shortly. At lease that is my guess. Same with disks, except it will take a few more months. It all boils down to maximizing profits or in this case minimizing losses.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

So, what difference would it make if I was playing DVD quality video or video from iTunes on my iPhone? The video quality looks the same.

So do you also think playing an HD DVD movie on a standard definition TV will give you hi-def?

Originally Posted by climber 

Simple. If Panasonic has not already stopped producing players they will shortly. At lease that is my guess. Same with disks, except it will take a few more months. It all boils down to maximizing profits or in this case minimizing losses.

Wowsers. Toshiba should be pretty happy about that then.

Here's a hint... Panasonic is likely in the top two or three companies in the Blu-ray patent pool.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by pooka 

So.. umm.. it's essentially useless unless you're already part of the Sony ecosystem. Nice. Score one for the people.

And iTunes is great if you have an iPod.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

And iTunes is great if you have an iPod.

You don't need an iPod for iTunes. You don't even need any Apple product at all (besides iTunes itself) for that matter.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

You don't need an iPod for iTunes. You don't even need any Apple product at all (besides iTunes itself) for that matter.

Think a bit deeper to purchasing songs from ITMS and it is the same thing as BR and PSP versions of the movie.

If you are part of the Apple ecosystem that song works great. The second you try to play that purchased song on another player or even over a streaming device no dice.

[climber]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Wowsers. Toshiba should be pretty happy about that then.
Here's a hint... Panasonic is likely in the top two or three companies in the Blu-ray patent pool.

Happy or sad are not factors, it is just business. You are likely correct that Panasonic has some patents that are still worth some money.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Think a bit deeper to purchasing songs from ITMS and it is the same thing as BR and PSP versions of the movie.

Think a bit deeper: You don't need an iPod play songs purchased from the iTMS.

Originally Posted by climber 

Happy or sad are not factors, it is just business. You are likely correct that Panasonic has some patents that are still worth some money.

I think you're still confused. Panasonic doesn't do HD DVD. They are one of the main developers and backers of Blu-ray. Probably #2 in the Blu-ray fold.

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

It you are losing $800 million per quarter, can you really last 5 years? How many billions of dollars can Sony lose a year? They already sold off their cell processor division to Toshiba from what I've heard. Toshiba was even demonstrating the Cell processor at CES.

If you average to about $500 million per quarter in loss, that's $2 billion in loss for the year in the PS3 division.

hyteckit, you really love to play funny with the numbers even when you seem to fail to understand them. First, the ~$800M loss you're quoting is for Sony's game division only, which is a part of a larger multinational conglomerate that includes everything from cell phones, electronics to movies, etc. In the aggregate, for the quarter where Sony did take that ~$800M hit (FY2007, Q2), they were still profitable because losses in one division were offset by strong profits in another (particularly sales of Bravia TVs). That's just the way business works, and to say that a company loses money on a loss leader is patently obvious and misses the point entirely.

On a related note, as noted above, as simple matter of scale economics, PS3 costs are coming down and those savings are being passed to the consuming public. Sales for PS3 are up nearly 300% and Sony has announced 1.2M PS3s sold during the holidays. As you haven't disputed the above economic lesson, I don't expect you to continue asserting that these strong numbers spell certain doom for Sony.

Second, with regard to the Cell sale to Toshiba, so what? Factories and divisions are assets that are sold all the time, usually for good business reasons. For Sony to have continued producing the Cell, they would have had to invest significantly more capital into taking the chip to the next generation (65nm to 45nm). Why do that if component manufacturing isn't your core business? Sell the unit to a company that is a more natural fit for chip manufacture and continue to reap the benefits through generous requirements contracts. And in fact while Toshiba may now own the Cell plant, the business is still operated jointly between Sony and Toshiba and you can be sure Sony's getting a good price on their Cell requirements.

Originally Posted by hyteckit

I think a few here are more Sony and PS3 fanboys rather than Bluray fans.

And it appears some people here are more Sony-haters rather than HD DVD or high def supporters. But regardless of whether I like or dislike Sony, I do not like people making up facts or taking favorable facts out of context and then making asinine conjectures.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Think a bit deeper to purchasing songs from ITMS and it is the same thing as BR and PSP versions of the movie.

Great, tell me how to get the Bluray/PSP movies onto a computer. At least tell me how to get them onto a hard drive.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Think a bit deeper: You don't need an iPod play songs purchased from the iTMS.

What other devises do other than your computer or iPod?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

What other devises do other than your computer or iPod?

Bingo.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I get the impression that you don't know what the term "attachment rate" means. You've said this several times, but it's simply wrong. The BD disc attachment sales rate is quite a bit lower. Attachment rate is discs sold per player, not overall discs sold.

So do those stats for attachment include or exclude the PS3?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Oversoul 

And it appears some people here are more Sony-haters rather than HD DVD or high def supporters. But regardless of whether I like or dislike Sony, I do not like people making up facts or taking favorable facts out of context and then making asinine conjectures.

I've had nothing against Sony for years, but my beef against Bluray isn't baseless. Instead of coming up with a common DRM format like HD-DVD did with managed copy, Sony is locking people to their ecosystem with Bluray.

I'm telling you guys, managed copy on Bluray died as soon as Warner switched. The Bluray/PSP link is the closest to managed copy we'll ever see, and surprise! It locks people into Sony's ecosystem.

I'm not a fan of DRM on iTunes either, but at least iTunes is more flexible. And I'm hoping that they come up with a common DRM format for online distribution. I don't have any hope that there will be any common DRM system for Bluray.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Bingo.

Riight. So I can either sit infront of a computer or on the road it is Apple iPod or nothing. Want another audio format on the iPod like WMV? No luck.

That doesn't sound at all like an ecosystem to me.

Think Secret - iPod success brings another antitrust claim against Apple

[exca1ibur]

"There were a few very cool BD-Live demonstrations occurring at various stations within the BDA booth. One of these was a game from Fox Home Entertainment called “Aliens vs Predator vs You”. I will post more on this later.

Technicolor was also demonstrating a BD-Live trivia game. One of the most interesting things about this BD-Live demo was that they were using a PS3 as the player! That’s right, a PS3 with BD Profile 2.0 firmware loaded! The Technicolor representatives informed me that the firmware was just loaded up this morning and that it is still in a highly beta phase. Either way, this is good news for PS3 owners, as we can expect to see a BD Profile 2.0 firmware released for the PS3 at some point in the future.

I now need to head over to the Blu-ray Disc Association press event. I’ll be reporting back on that in the future, so stay tuned for more!"

PS3 Profile 2.0 might be close.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I've had nothing against Sony for years, but my beef against Bluray isn't baseless. Instead of coming up with a common DRM format like HD-DVD did with managed copy, Sony is locking people to their ecosystem with Bluray.

I'm telling you guys, managed copy on Bluray died as soon as Warner switched. The Bluray/PSP link is the closest to managed copy we'll ever see, and surprise! It locks people into Sony's ecosystem.

I'm not a fan of DRM on iTunes either, but at least iTunes is more flexible. And I'm hoping that they come up with a common DRM format for online distribution. I don't have any hope that there will be any common DRM system for Bluray.

Well, I am a bit against Sony, but I also am a bit against Microsoft, so it's all a wash.

However, I still think it's unfortunate that a less well thought out and more expensive format is winning the movie hardware war. Personally, I think HD DVD remains the better format from the technical perspective, esp. when you consider costs and ease of implementation. However, I think Blu-ray is more useful for computer backups, because of the increased storage.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

"There were a few very cool BD-Live demonstrations occurring at various stations within the BDA booth. One of these was a game from Fox Home Entertainment called “Aliens vs Predator vs You”. I will post more on this later.

Technicolor was also demonstrating a BD-Live trivia game. One of the most interesting things about this BD-Live demo was that they were using a PS3 as the player! That’s right, a PS3 with BD Profile 2.0 firmware loaded! The Technicolor representatives informed me that the firmware was just loaded up this morning and that it is still in a highly beta phase. Either way, this is good news for PS3 owners, as we can expect to see a BD Profile 2.0 firmware released for the PS3 at some point in the future.

I now need to head over to the Blu-ray Disc Association press event. I’ll be reporting back on that in the future, so stay tuned for more!"

PS3 Profile 2.0 might be close.

Yeah, I always thought the PS3 would be the poster-child for 2.0 compatibility. I'm predicting fall 2008. Like I said though, I don't want a PS3.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Riight. So I can either sit infront of a computer or on the road it is Apple iPod or nothing. Want another audio format on the iPod like WMV? No luck.

That doesn't sound at all like an ecosystem to me.

Yeah, it's an iPod computer iTunes ecosystem, which happens to be more flexible than a PS3 PSP ecosystem. However, neither are very flexible. The point of managed copy was flexibility, but I too think real managed copy is probably dead.

P.S. Last I checked, you have a Mac mini with iTunes hooked up to your stereo system.

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

So do those stats for attachment include or exclude the PS3?

I believe it includes PS3 numbers.

Eug is correct though that Blu-ray attachment rate, when inclusive of PS3 numbers, isn't particularly high and lower than HD DVD attachment rates. But the counter to that is that not everyone who owns a PS3 uses it to watch movies, although, in terms of raw numbers, a lot do. Warner's president said as much:

Originally Posted by Ron Sanders, Warner Home Video president

"You also can't underestimate the impact of PS3 as a playback device," Sanders said. "The attachment rate may not be very high, and in fact it isn't, but in the aggregate that still adds up to a lot of software sales."

Warner backs Blu-ray exclusively - 1/4/2008 - Video Business

[hyteckit]

BD-Live and the Alien Vs. Predator demo at CES is sort of dumb.

I see guys tossing computer generated knifes at the Aliens and Predator while the movie was playing.

All those Sony PS3 fanboys who argue how dumb PIP is and how it ruins the movie experience are getting all excited over Profile 1.1 and Profile 2.0 with it's PiP and interactive games with the movie.

I like PiP, but why would I want to sit through the Aliens and Predators movies and toss fake knifes at the Aliens and Predators? Aren't there more fun games on the PS3?

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

That’s right, a PS3 with BD Profile 2.0 firmware loaded! The Technicolor representatives informed me that the firmware was just loaded up this morning and that it is still in a highly beta phase. Either way, this is good news for PS3 owners, as we can expect to see a BD Profile 2.0 firmware released for the PS3 at some point in the future.
PS3 Profile 2.0 might be close.

This would be a very compelling reason to purchase a PS3 as a Blu-ray player! PiP and BD Live don't particularly appeal to me, but for those whom these features appeal to, it's good to know. Now if Sony would only drop the price point to $299 or less.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Oversoul 

hyteckit, you really love to play funny with the numbers even when you seem to fail to understand them. First, the ~$800M loss you're quoting is for Sony's game division only, which is a part of a larger multinational conglomerate that includes everything from cell phones, electronics to movies, etc. In the aggregate, for the quarter where Sony did take that ~$800M hit (FY2007, Q2), they were still profitable because losses in one division were offset by strong profits in another (particularly sales of Bravia TVs). That's just the way business works, and to say that a company loses money on a loss leader is patently obvious and misses the point entirely.

On a related note, as noted above, as simple matter of scale economics, PS3 costs are coming down and those savings are being passed to the consuming public. Sales for PS3 are up nearly 300% and Sony has announced 1.2M PS3s sold during the holidays. As you haven't disputed the above economic lesson, I don't expect you to continue asserting that these strong numbers spell certain doom for Sony.

Second, with regard to the Cell sale to Toshiba, so what? Factories and divisions are assets that are sold all the time, usually for good business reasons. For Sony to have continued producing the Cell, they would have had to invest significantly more capital into taking the chip to the next generation (65nm to 45nm). Why do that if component manufacturing isn't your core business? Sell the unit to a company that is a more natural fit for chip manufacture and continue to reap the benefits through generous requirements contracts. And in fact while Toshiba may now own the Cell plant, the business is still operated jointly between Sony and Toshiba and you can be sure Sony's getting a good price on their Cell requirements.

So your argument is that big companies with multiple divisions don't kill off a money losing division because they are making money in other divisions? Yet at the same time you argue that Sony kills off the Cell processor division because it is not making money?

Originally Posted by Oversoul 

And it appears some people here are more Sony-haters rather than HD DVD or high def supporters. But regardless of whether I like or dislike Sony, I do not like people making up facts or taking favorable facts out of context and then making asinine conjectures.

I have no reason to hate Sony. If Sony was not involve in Bluray and Bluray was the sole idea of Apple, I would still choose HDDVD over Bluray. Sony is not even involve in my decision to get a HDDVD player.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I think a few here are more Sony and PS3 fanboys rather than Bluray fans.

So what are you? A former HD DVD fan turned XBox Live downloads fanboy? Do you pay Xbox 360 games a lot?

BTW. How much is MSFT paying you to post here and pretend to be a mac user?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

So what are you? A former HD DVD fan turned XBox Live downloads fanboy? Do you pay Xbox 360 games a lot?

BTW. How much is MSFT paying you to post here and pretend to be a mac user?

I don't own an Xbox 360. I have own about 30 different Apple laptops and desktops. I've have own both an iPod and iPhone. Been an Apple fan since the Apple IIe, then the Apple IIGS, and then the Mac.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I've had nothing against Sony for years, but my beef against Bluray isn't baseless. Instead of coming up with a common DRM format like HD-DVD did with managed copy, Sony is locking people to their ecosystem with Bluray.

Did Managed copy ever see the light of day? Was it Mac compatible? I don't recall you answering my questions. Does it really exist or was it all talk and is it MSFT specific? HD DVD and Blu-ray both use ACSS encryption and Blu-ray was in the design phase "before" AOD even existed let alone when it was renamed to HD DVD and Toshiba decided to switch to blue-violet lasers like Blu-ray was using.

I'm telling you guys, managed copy on Bluray died as soon as Warner switched. The Bluray/PSP link is the closest to managed copy we'll ever see, and surprise! It locks people into Sony's ecosystem.

Prove to me that it was not vaporware and that it was not tied to the MSFT OS and ecosystem. Give us some links.

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

So your argument is that big companies with multiple divisions don't kill off a money losing division because they are making money in other divisions? Yet at the same time you argue that Sony kills off the Cell processor division because it is not making money?

They're not incompatible positions. It may very well make good business sense to keep one money loser while getting rid of another. Sony's Playstation and SCEA are money makers (or potential money makers) for Sony and has long been part of their core business. The Playstation 3 is a loss leader that, in large part, won the format war for Sony and is steadily increasing their presence in the next-gen game console market, and, as noted above, it's unlikely to be a "loss" for very much longer. The manufacture of chips, on the other hand, may not naturally "fit" with Sony's business, which is typically associated with music, movies, games and consumer electronics. In the long term (or even not so long term), Sony's gaming division is more likely to generate profits than a substantial investment in microprocessors that they'll be able to take advantage of whether or not they own the facilities that make them.