[besson3c]

Hey Guys,

I'm looking at a 2001 VW Beetle that has about 70k miles on it and is selling for $6200. I'm weighing this against a 2003 Toyota Corolla that has 80k miles on it but costs $9000. There is a lot I don't know about the shape of these particular cars having not seen them in person yet, but in addition to your general take on this I have some specific questions...

I've calculated that at the current average gas rate of $3.07/gallon, after driving 50,000 miles I'll have saved about $2000 with the Corolla. Its fuel economy is rated at 34 mpg on the highway vs. the Beetle's lousy 28. However, the price difference still works in the favor of the Beetle even accounting for savings in fuel economy, and my thinking is that in a few years there may likely be better options available for saving on fuel economy that might warrant an upgrade. The difference between 28 - 34 mpg is not as radical as the difference between a diesel or hybrid, I'm thinking.

My question is this: at what point on average would you say that owning a car becomes expensive - what mileage milestone? What is the sweet spot? The reason I ask is because there are Corollas available that are cheaper than $9000, but they have upwards of 100,000 miles on them. Is this a red flag to you? I know that some Corollas have gone for more than 200,000 miles, but that is just accounting for the engine and core components of the car, right? Will doing routine maintenance on a vehicle with more than 100,000 miles on it cost more than the Beetle I'm looking at on average?

Weighing the sort of variables I'm weighing here, what are your thoughts? What would you do?

Thanks in advance! I'm a newbie when it comes to cars, so your advice is appreciated

[nonhuman]

I think it's safe to assume that gas prices will go up over the course of the next 50,000 miles. As a result your savings for the Corolla will rise. I don't know if they'll rise enough to fully offset the difference between the two, but since the savings already bring the difference down to less than $1000, I think we can pretty much just say that the cost of the two cars will be the same in terms of purchase price and fuel costs.

The other major cost factor is maintenance. My general perception (without having done any research into it, but having looked over this stuff a few years ago and having a lot of family in the car business) is that a VW will be a lot more expensive to maintain than a Toyota, so that will further serve to tip the balance towards the Corolla.

If it were me, I'd definitely go with the Corolla. Of course I wouldn't even have considered the Beetle in the first place...

[SSharon]

Does the cost to insure each vehicle vary greatly? That is another thing to throw in the mix.

Without looking online at all that seems like a steep price for a corolla, but I would still take it over the VW. (I drive an old Camry and love it)

[mindwaves]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

If it were me, I'd definitely go with the Corolla. Of course I wouldn't even have considered the Beetle in the first place...

QFT. Except if there was a Civic in the mix, I'll take that instead.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

Does the cost to insure each vehicle vary greatly? That is another thing to throw in the mix.

Without looking online at all that seems like a steep price for a corolla, but I would still take it over the VW. (I drive an old Camry and love it)

Ooh, insurance is a good point. I'd imagine that they're probably the same, or if there's any difference that the Corolla would again have the edge.

The price is probably a little high unless the car's in exceptional condition and/or is better than the base model. (KBB says about $8k for the base trip in good condition).

[sek929]

My sister owned an 01 Beetle...it was in the shop all the time.

Get the Corolla, you won't regret it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

Does the cost to insure each vehicle vary greatly? That is another thing to throw in the mix.

Without looking online at all that seems like a steep price for a corolla, but I would still take it over the VW. (I drive an old Camry and love it)

I haven't looked into insurance costs yet, but I have an absolutely spotless driving record. I'm 30 years old and have cheap insurance as it stands with my current vehicle. I should look into this though.

[iranfromthezoo]

my uncle has a 1991 toyota corolla with over 500,000 miles on it, my sister has a 1997 with over 245,000 and my friend on the fire dept has one with over 200,000 miles on it. I don't know about beetles but I do know in my experience that Toyota is a longer lasting name brand and rarely has any maintenance issues if you take car of it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

QFT. Except if there was a Civic in the mix, I'll take that instead.

I couldn't find a Civic below 12k in my area. Perhaps I should look into buying some newer with less miles on it at this price point, but I'm sort of aiming for sub $10,000 right now. I could afford to go above $10,000, but I'm sort of narrowing my search accordingly right now...

[iranfromthezoo]

Why don't you look at a Ford Fusion? They have won every award in the category.


EDIT: I saw you were sub 10,000 why not the Focus? They've won just about every award also,

[BlueSky]

I'm on my second Corolla. First one I drove well beyond 100k miles, the current one is about 50K original miles, but I've had it since 1988. (Yeah, I don't drive much.)

[besson3c]

If anybody is interested, here are some Corolla options that are available within proximity of where I live:

1998 Corolla: Blue 1998 Toyota Corolla LE For Sale in Indianapolis, Indiana – Buy This Used Car Today
33 highway mpg $5000


2001 Corolla: Silver 2001 Toyota Corolla S For Sale in Camby, Indiana – Buy This Used Car Today
36 highway mpg $5000 154285 miles


1998 Corolla: Green 1998 Toyota Corolla LE For Sale in Greenwood, Indiana – Buy This Used Car Today
33 highway mpg $4600 127115 miles


2002 Corolla: Silver 2002 Toyota Corolla CE For Sale in Indianapolis, Indiana – Buy This Used Car Today
36 highway mpg $6450 107000 miles


2002 Corolla: Silver 2002 Toyota Corolla LE For Sale in Indianapolis, Indiana – Buy This Used Car Today
36 highway mpg $5000 103211 miles

[iranfromthezoo]

Originally Posted by BlueSky 

I'm on my second Corolla. First one I drove well beyond 100k miles, the current one is about 50K original miles, but I've had it since 1988. (Yeah, I don't drive much.)

dude where do you live? I have had my car since Sept of 07 and have put over 9,0000 miles on it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

Why don't you look at a Ford Fusion? They have won every award in the category.


EDIT: I saw you were sub 10,000 why not the Focus? They've won just about every award also,

I owned a Ford Festiva and it was a disaster. I'm narrowing my search on VW, Honda and Toyota right now... No killer rationale here, just starting off here. At the moment, I don't feel good about any American made cars.

[imitchellg5]

Get a Civic. More reliable then a VW, more fun to drive then a Corolla. I've seen blank sheets of paper with more character then the Corolla. The Focus is a crappy car, not comfortable at all. I get cramped and sore in a Focus after about 30 minutes of riding.

[silver]

I agree with the comments on the Civic. I have owned one since 04' and love it, good gas mileage and pretty decent performance. Also if I recall Honda's in general have a better resell value.

Comments on the VW. A friend of mine leased a beetle and she had so many problems that she said, "damn the lease" and returned it for a Honda CRV. I've also got a buddy who owns a VW/AUDI shop here in the islands and he sees more beetles come in for repairs than any of the other models.

"One more thing" I get about 405 miles per fill up, so not to shabby on gas. Might be less with A/C though, as I don't use it much I'm a moon roof open, windows down kinda guy.


Cheers

[imitchellg5]

Oh, and get a stick too. It will improve gas mileage a bit, and if you get a Corolla it makes it a bit less monotonous.

[Mastrap]

I drove the beetle as a rental last fall. While it was a nice drive, I'd never buy one. It's cramped in the back, there isn't much luggage space and it felt a little too low for my liking.

[Doofy]

It's real easy. Unbutton one's flies and look down. If there's a penis there, don't buy the Beetle. FFS they have a vase built into the dashboard!

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's real easy. Unbutton one's flies and look down. If there's a penis there, don't buy the Beetle. FFS they have a vase built into the dashboard!

I know a lot of people with Beetles, and they're mostly women. The only men I know with Beetles are the ones whose wife or girlfriend used to drive the Beetle, but got a newer car and now the guy is stuck driving it. Old Beetles are cool for guys to drive around in. New Beetles, not so much!

[ghporter]

Didn't the new Beetle come out in '01? Generally it's a good idea to do a LOT of research on "original year model" cars-even if they were based almost entirely on a Golf.

I'm hardly objective, but I think a Civic is well worth it. The problem is that in Indiana you have a bit of snow and ice, and if I'm not mistaken they still use salt on the roads. That means that an otherwise mechanically sound car might look like crap because of car cancer. Down here, cars don't rust out like that. Usually someone wraps it around an abutment or something before it breaks down... Maybe you can save a bit more and get the Civic. Otherwise, the Corrola is the better choice-and not because the Beetle is girly.

[besson3c]

Okay, I have some new info about the Beetle... I went to check it out tonight. The guy selling it is an olympic swimmer being sponsored by a VW dealership and given this car, so he didn't know a whole lot about the details of the car. I will be talking with the dealer soon.

However, it is a manual transmission, and actually a 2000 Beetle. To be honest, I love the car and how it drives. I'm also thinking that I will only keep this vehicle for a few years until a more efficient car comes out that I like. This is a fun car, and in a way I kind of feel like I'm due for a fun car since up until now I've owned shitboxes.

I need to research the reliability of the 2000 Beetle now, taking everything here into account. Does the difference in year change any advice here?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

I know a lot of people with Beetles, and they're mostly women. The only men I know with Beetles are the ones whose wife or girlfriend used to drive the Beetle, but got a newer car and now the guy is stuck driving it. Old Beetles are cool for guys to drive around in. New Beetles, not so much!

Yeah, but I don't care one bit about being cool or any of this image stuff...

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Okay, I have some new info about the Beetle... I went to check it out tonight. The guy selling it is an olympic swimmer being sponsored by a VW dealership and given this car, so he didn't know a whole lot about the details of the car. I will be talking with the dealer soon.

However, it is a manual transmission, and actually a 2000 Beetle. To be honest, I love the car and how it drives. I'm also thinking that I will only keep this vehicle for a few years until a more efficient car comes out that I like. This is a fun car, and in a way I kind of feel like I'm due for a fun car since up until now I've owned shitboxes.

I need to research the reliability of the 2000 Beetle now, taking everything here into account. Does the difference in year change any advice here?

Bro, I'm warning you, stay away. It might be a fun car to drive, but most of those drives will be to the shop.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Bro, I'm warning you, stay away. It might be a fun car to drive, but most of those drives will be to the shop.

Don't worry, I'll be researching this to death, taking all advice and data into account

However, the 104 opinions printed here sort of contradict a lot being said here, so... I've got a lot of work and reading ahead of me

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Don't worry, I'll be researching this to death, taking all advice and data into account

However, the 104 opinions printed here sort of contradict a lot being said here, so... I've got a lot of work and reading ahead of me

Okay. There aren't a whole lot of people who have had great luck with VWs of late. Just a ton of stupid stuff happens to them - blowing fuses all the time, windows falling down into sills, engines stalling in humidity.

[CreepDogg]

My wife had a 2001 Cabrio that had lots of problems - mostly related to windows, wonky electrical system, and leaky convertible top. My sister has a Jetta that's also had window and electrical problems, and is also due for a new transmission. I've heard a bunch of other stories as well - all anecdotal but definitely enough to steer me away from VWs. They drive really well, especially for the money, when working - but you just need to be prepared for the likelihood of problems.

The Corolla and, to a lesser extent, Civic are just the opposite - generally dependable and very boring. That said - in the price range you're looking I agree with others and would look first at the Civic.

I do understand the 'fun to drive' thing though - hell, I drive a Mini. So I know the fun can be worth some reliability hassle... My experience with VWs has just been too far over the line to recommend them.

[besson3c]

Are these horror stories just lemon cars that had problems surface near the early going of owning the car, or are these entirely random? The owner claims that in the 7-8 years of owning the car, it's been absolutely solid. My computer mind says that if a problem doesn't surface during this time, you're probably in the free and clear.

Maybe cars aren't like computers?

[sek929]

My sister needed all sorts of electronic stuff replaced including the entire dash unit.

Civic or Corolla, end of debate.

[Laminar]

Ford Contour.
hahahahahahaha reliable? what?

[sek929]

Quiet you!

You got such an awesome deal that he should try and duplicate it though.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Ford Contour.
hahahahahahaha reliable? what?

I never saw that coming.

[besson3c]

The Consumer Reports data available on MSN (yuck) echos a lot of what is being said here... A lot of engine problems are considered minor, but there are a lot of them, and it got a lower score than the 2002 Corolla (8.1 vs. 8.6). I found a couple of 2002 Corollas with a little over 100,000 miles on them. Since the mileage doesn't seem to set off any flags for anybody here, I will definitely look into this some more.

I do want to know one thing though... Exactly what does it say if this *particular* (not the model in general) 2000 Beetle has had a clean bill of health? Is it still susceptible to many of the problems described here, or is it likely that this particular car has escaped the problems?

I just want to make sure I have as much info as possible before ruling out the Beetle. Sorry, I agonize about this sort of stuff...

[OldManMac]

One of my daughters works in the parts department of a VW dealership. I love VWs, having owned 9 of them over the last 44 years, and I've never had any major problems, with most of them being high mileage cars. The last one I owned, however, was an 89 Fox, which was a great car, but VW has had some quality issues for about the last ten years, with it improving somewhat in the last couple of years. I wouldn't touch a 2000 VW anything with a ten foot pole, and neither would my daughter.

[Doofy]

Seriously Bess, VW started moving production from Germany to low-cost countries about that time and their quality went south. And don't buy into the "fun" thing - it's mostly an illusion designed to fool people who iron their jeans into thinking that if they drive one of these they'll be a bit more rock and roll. They're actually no more fun than any other car. If you really want the vase, just superglue one to the dash of the Toyota - that's properly rock and roll.

[Dork.]

On my 2000 Jetta, I've had my turn signal switch die once or twice, my glove compartment door is broken, my drivers' side window collapsed into the car door and broke, I had the "Malfunction Indicator Light" go off for no good reason multiple times, and my roof-top antenna is limp (which amuses my co-workers to no end.)

Come to think of it, there were an awful lot of recall notices on my 2000 Jetta. If I were you, I'd try and find out what recall work was done already -- you might be able to get a lot of these problems fixed at no charge by VW if they happen. Anyone know if you can just bring the VIN to a VW dealer to find out what recall work has been done?

They are fun to drive, though. There's a bit of difference between the Jetta and my wife's Subaru wagon. That handles like a truck (probably because it's built on a light truck frame....)

[Dork.]

Oh, and if you need to get more power out of your new Beetle, this might help:



It's apparently from this site:

Jet Beetle

You have to give the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the DMV) credit for creativity on this one. A DMV insider has disclosed to me that the DMV has made a formal request to a federal agency to rule if my Beetle constitutes a threat to national security based on what could happen if it got into the wrong hands. This raises three questions in my mind: #1 Does this mean I’m the right hands? #2 If someone with the name "b_laden13" is the highest eBay bidder for my Beetle can I refuse his offer even if he has the prestigious eBay Red Shooting Star feedback rating (the highest)? #3 Would this affect my eBay rating?

[Macrat]

I had two co-workers with Beetles, and they were in the shop all the time as well. I just remember hearing about getting headlight bulbs replaced for $100 a pop, and brake pads for $200, because everything is proprietary.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I do want to know one thing though... Exactly what does it say if this *particular* (not the model in general) 2000 Beetle has had a clean bill of health? Is it still susceptible to many of the problems described here, or is it likely that this particular car has escaped the problems?

It's hard to say. It may have escaped some of the common problems that tend to show up early - like the windows and wonky electricals (for example, in my wife's car, about half the time she'd start it, the radio would require the security code to be entered because it thought it'd been disconnected from the car -- she got to memorize the security code...). Other common problems, like early failure on the transmission (not sure if the one you're looking at is manual or automatic) tend to come later.

It's also possible that the owner didn't view these things are problems because they were under warranty, and the owner believes they've been addressed.

Obviously you could get a perfectly reliable VW and a lemon Corolla, but the odds tend to say otherwise. Good luck.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Macrat 

I had two co-workers with Beetles, and they were in the shop all the time as well. I just remember hearing about getting headlight bulbs replaced for $100 a pop, and brake pads for $200, because everything is proprietary.

Sounds like they went to the stealership and got fed a line. My Jetta has normal (halogen) bulbs, but the battery is right up against the back of the driver's side head-lamp and it's a pain to replace that headlight yourself. I've done it once, all the other times it was close enough to when I had to take it for an oil change that I let my mechanic do it. I'll have to look up how much the brake pads were (I have to get the rear brakes changed over twice as often as the front ones.), but while they were more expensive than the typical pads I don;t think they were $200 a pop. I'm not sure why the Beetle would be any different -- as Glenn said, it's basically a Golf with a bud vase.

I go to a local shop that specializes in imports, and specifically, German cars.

[mindwaves]

Some of my friends have had VW cars and will never buy them again. They ride fine, but expensive to repair (and stuff inside do break and often at that).

[turtle777]

I have a 2004 Jetta, and had no major problems so far (I'm at 45k miles).

There was one recall, I think it was the buckle switch, which was replaced w/o a problem by the dealership.

What's not cheap is to do all the recommended inspections and services every 5k miles. But I'm not a car wiz, so I don't mind to pay for the ease of mind, knowing my car is in shape at all times.

Yes, I will buy VW cars again.
I'm looking forward to the new Tiguan - looks like a fun car

-t

[scaught]

2000 Golf, here. 130,000 on the odometer (100k of that I put on in 4 years) and few problems.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Hey Guys,

I'm looking at a 2001 VW Beetle that has about 70k miles on it and is selling for $6200. I'm weighing this against a 2003 Toyota Corolla that has 80k miles on it but costs $9000. There is a lot I don't know about the shape of these particular cars having not seen them in person yet, but in addition to your general take on this I have some specific questions...

I've calculated that at the current average gas rate of $3.07/gallon, after driving 50,000 miles I'll have saved about $2000 with the Corolla. Its fuel economy is rated at 34 mpg on the highway vs. the Beetle's lousy 28. However, the price difference still works in the favor of the Beetle even accounting for savings in fuel economy, and my thinking is that in a few years there may likely be better options available for saving on fuel economy that might warrant an upgrade. The difference between 28 - 34 mpg is not as radical as the difference between a diesel or hybrid, I'm thinking.

My question is this: at what point on average would you say that owning a car becomes expensive - what mileage milestone? What is the sweet spot? The reason I ask is because there are Corollas available that are cheaper than $9000, but they have upwards of 100,000 miles on them. Is this a red flag to you? I know that some Corollas have gone for more than 200,000 miles, but that is just accounting for the engine and core components of the car, right? Will doing routine maintenance on a vehicle with more than 100,000 miles on it cost more than the Beetle I'm looking at on average?

Weighing the sort of variables I'm weighing here, what are your thoughts? What would you do?

Thanks in advance! I'm a newbie when it comes to cars, so your advice is appreciated

Oh my god get the Corolla. That one's easy!

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Seriously Bess, VW started moving production from Germany to low-cost countries about that time and their quality went south. And don't buy into the "fun" thing - it's mostly an illusion designed to fool people who iron their jeans into thinking that if they drive one of these they'll be a bit more rock and roll. They're actually no more fun than any other car. If you really want the vase, just superglue one to the dash of the Toyota - that's properly rock and roll.

Actually my "In Deurschland hergestellt" GTI had all the same issues that plagued the Mark IV models (the beetle belongs to that). It was more an issue of cost-cutting with the parts and german engineeeeering than it was with the assembly location. And I won't even talk about the infamous US VW dealer network....
I would seriously hesitate to go with the beetle, no matter how fun it is to drive.

Have you considered a Mazda protege? I just bought a used one, and it is beats the crap out of the civics and corollas (ESPECIALLY Corollas ugh!) as far as driving dynamics is concerned. They are quite reliable and good on gas.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by sek929 

My sister owned an 01 Beetle...it was in the shop all the time.

Get the Corolla, you won't regret it.

We had the SAME experience with the Beetle, 2001 was a total POS.

[ebuddy]

Corolla.

[besson3c]

I ended up getting the 2003 Corolla LE...

Thanks guys!

[sek929]

You won't regret it.

As folks have already said they aren't the most fun cars to drive...but to get to places with no hassles you made the right choice.

If you wanted to drive it for 250K+ miles it would oblige.