Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Timetheus · Mar 8, 2007, 01:35 AM

So here's a fun problem...

A friend of my mother's dumped her Power Mac 6100/66 off on me hoping I could fix it. Frankly I don't know much about classic (Aside from an LC III I had given me well after it's obsolesence, I was still in the Windows abyss until OS 9). She described the problem as "nothing coming up on the screen" which is not terribly useful. I'd test it myself, but she didn't give me the moniter and I don't have any access to an "HDI 45" moniter (At least not at the moment).

I'd suggest she get a new mac, but she seems quite attached to classic and an antiquated copy of Pagemaker 4... I think she has a PC for other computing tasks as well.

At any rate I can boot my LC III from her HD (that was my only access to SCSI) and all her data is present and accounted for. Likewise when I power up her computer (HD attached) I can clearly hear the startup chime (the normal one, in the case of the 6100 a pleasent guitar chord as opposed to it's unique "Car Crash" death chime). The HD seems to spin up normally as if the machine is booting.

So it would seem the Mainboard is functioning. So here's my real question, does the chime play regardless of whether the Video Card (which is integrated in this case) is operational? In other words, is it likely that the Video Card is broken despite the positive start-up chime? I'm just debating whether or not I should suggest that she buy a new moniter or an HDI 45 - DB 15 adapter (which would work with my old LC moniter).

Of course, the only way to test this accurately would be to track down a known-working HDI 45 moniter, but unless any of you live in Omaha and happen to have one, that doesn't seem likely at this point.

Any advice?

Lateralus · Mar 8, 2007, 01:43 AM

Yes, the machine will still chime even with video issues.

The culprit may not be the integrated video circuitry but rather the 6100's VRAM stick. Might wanna try swapping it out or grabbing a NuBus graphics card from the Vintage Mac section on eBay.

Either way, it isn't worth the effort.

DrBoar · Mar 8, 2007, 08:32 AM

I gave seen fleamarket Power Mac 7200 allmost for free (less than shippding of a free nubus card). It would take the SCSI disk from the 6100, have way better speed in classic and you can even get a USB card for painless shuffling of files.

P · Mar 8, 2007, 11:13 AM

I agree, just get another of the first or second gen Powermacs and move the HD, and possibly the RAM, over to it. I got a 7200 for free about a year back, it works fine although it'd work better with more RAM.

SirCastor · Mar 8, 2007, 01:08 PM

Wow, I had a 6100 back in the day... Memories. Thanks for the nostalgia! (sorry, I have no advice to offer)

ApeInTheShell · Mar 8, 2007, 01:22 PM

Apparently, you can hook a Plasma/LCD display to a Power Mac 8500. Crazy. I have an old Apple monitor but it doesn't work. I do know the Power Mac 6100 works because we spend so much money replacing the battery. The video card didn't have problems. It was mostly the monitor shorting out.

ApeInTheShell · Mar 8, 2007, 01:25 PM

If she got a used iMac tray loading/slot loading she could still boot into Mac OS 8-9 which runs PageMaker 4 fine and probably a lot faster than Mac OS 7.5. A minor problem with Mac OS 7.5 was the upgrades from Mac OS X 7.5.3 to 7.5.5 to 7.6(which you had to buy). Some of them are one Apple's support website but if you do get the Power Mac 6100 working go for Mac OS 8.0-1.

Timetheus · Mar 8, 2007, 01:42 PM

I more or less figured the chime didn't indicate Video functionality - though I had hoped ... it would have made this so much simpler

I'm not sure how she wants to spend much more than the $15 bucks needed to buy an HDI-45 to DB 15 adapter on eBay (I'd probably just give her my LC III's moniter and be done with it). I also think I'll try to get her moniter to see if it's obviously a moniter issue.

Or I could just put her HD in my LC III ... Might be a bit of speed loss (or crashing halt really) anyone ever used system 7.1.2 (I'm pretty sure she never upgraded, and that seems to have been the shipping OS for the 6100) and Pagemaker 4 on an LC III? And would a PowerPC installation of Mac OS create compatibilty issues w/ the 68030? It did boot normally when I tried, but I didn''t play w/ it much.

So, just out of curiousty, does anyone know why Apple used HDI-45 at all? Weren't they using DB-15 at the same time anyway? Seems like a compatibility nightmare to me.

Timetheus · 02:12 PM

Update:

I found This on eBay:

2 MB Nubus Card

Looks like this would let me easily go from her NuBus slot to my LC moniter avoiding the probably faulty VC on the MB.

I gather from the Pic there and the look of the slot itself that the card is somehow L-shaped, any one know how that works? Does it require some sort of adapter? I don't see anything resembling a Nubus slot on the MB. Just a slot along the left side that looks like it should it have an expansion card in it:

Simon · Mar 8, 2007, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Timetheus

So, just out of curiousty, does anyone know why Apple used HDI-45 at all? Weren't they using DB-15 at the same time anyway? Seems like a compatibility nightmare to me.

It was a nightmare. But it was in good Apple tradition. They used DB-15 when everybody else was settling on VGA. But they didn't just want one connector so they introduced a variation of the DB-15 (that carried three coaxial pins in addition to the 15 normal pins) on the Portrait Display (IIRC it was DB13W3). And then when people started getting used to just buying DB-15 to VGA converters (which had tiny little switches and were a PITA to fiddle with), they introduced HDI-45 again screwing everybody. The PowerBooks instead of VGA had "mini 15" ports calling for another adapter.

Then finally came the PM 9600 and with it a standard VGA port. But it didn't take long until Apple dropped ADC on us. In all fairness ADC was a somewhat intelligent idea, but unfortunately it didn't spread and quickly again became the ugly duckling of video ports.

Oh yeah, at some point they also introduced the Apple Digital Audio/Video (DAV) port. Having DB-15, VGA, and HD-45 would have been just too simple.

Actually now with DVI-I ports giving us DVI, VGA, S-Video, and Composite all with just one standard port (and two types of dongles of course) we're probably as standardized as we have ever been in Apple history.

Lateralus · Mar 8, 2007, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Timetheus

Update:

I found This on eBay:

2 MB Nubus Card

Looks like this would let me easily go from her NuBus slot to my LC moniter avoiding the probably faulty VC on the MB.

I gather from the Pic there and the look of the slot itself that the card is somehow L-shaped, any one know how that works? Does it require some sort of adapter? I don't see anything resembling a Nubus slot on the MB. Just a slot along the left side that looks like it should it have an expansion card in it:

Indeed, you will need a NuBus 'riser' card. I had assumed her 6100 had it. Being how it doesn't, snagging a video card is now prohibiltively expensive.

I agree with the above suggestions to snag a PowerPC Mac from a thrift store for a dollar.

Timetheus · 05:37 PM

Simon, all I have to say is wow, and tell you how sorry I am to have missed most of that era of Mac History (until now).

It looks like the card in the eBay auction above *might* have a riser card attached (God I hope so...) I e-mailed the seller in hopes of finding out. Otheriwse the riser cards run in excess of $35.

I looks like a riser card is sticking up on the left side of the card, and the seller mentioned he had pulled the card from a 6100.

Can anyone tell?

Lateralus · Mar 8, 2007, 03:40 PM

Yes, it has the riser.

Wouldn't hurt to wait for a response from the seller though. Just incase he took the picture in haste and intends on selling the riser separately.

Timetheus · Mar 8, 2007, 06:17 PM

The seller e-mailed me back and, in fact, the riser is attached and included. I pulled the trigger - I'll update once I get the card in the near future.

goMac · Mar 8, 2007, 06:35 PM

Is the hard drive making clicking noises like it's booting?

Honestly, I'd replace the PRAM battery first before replacing any serious hardware. I had a Quadra 605 do this to me once, and all I had to do was replace the PRAM battery.

Not to mention I bet the PRAM battery on that machine is dead anyway.

Timetheus · Mar 8, 2007, 07:50 PM

Hadn't thought of that, I'll try it next chance I get. I have a spare in the LC III.

Timetheus · Mar 20, 2007, 03:44 PM

UPDATE:

Well, I finally got the video card today. I dropped it in, plugged in the monitor from my LC III, and we're off!

It seems to be working fine now (although I don't a have a mouse for it handy).

Looks like her monitor or VC were toast, though it hard to tell which.

Just one question: was it normal to have to turn on the monitor after the computer to get a screen? If I do it in reverse order I just get a black screen (much to my dismay the first two times I tried the new set up).

But anyway, thanks for all your help!

Northeastern292 · Mar 20, 2007, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by SirCastor

Wow, I had a 6100 back in the day... Memories. Thanks for the nostalgia! (sorry, I have no advice to offer)

We all had one......except me (I was only three when it came out!) But my great uncle still occasionally boots up his.

I may just give him a PowerMac G3, but his primary machines now are a PowerBook G3 (Lombard), Mac mini and an iMac G5 (Nvidia GeForce FX5200 model).

Bwa · Mar 21, 2007, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by P

I agree, just get another of the first or second gen Powermacs and move the HD, and possibly the RAM, over to it. I got a 7200 for free about a year back, it works fine although it'd work better with more RAM.

Just in case anyone wants to follow this advice, beware that the 6100 memory (72 pin SIMMs, installed in pairs) will not physically fit in a 7200 (168 pin DIMMs).

Sherman Homan · 09:23 PM

Just one question: was it normal to have to turn on the monitor after the computer to get a screen? If I do it in reverse order I just get a black screen (much to my dismay the first two times I tried the new set up).

The 6100 was a trip! Your monitor and other startup issues could all be related to the logic board battery. That particular model was very flaky with a failing battery.

Timetheus · Mar 21, 2007, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan

The 6100 was trip! Your monitor and other startup issues could all be related to the logic board battery. That particular model was very flaky with a failing battery.

Agreed, but I've tried it with two batteries (the orginal, and one I pulled from my LC III, which I actually bought as a replacement for that machine a few years ago and was hardly ever used as I got an iMac shortly thereafter).

It seems to behave indentically wither way.

Bwa · Mar 21, 2007, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Timetheus

Agreed, but I've tried it with two batteries (the orginal, and one I pulled from my LC III, which I actually bought as a replacement for that machine a few years ago and was hardly ever used as I got an iMac shortly thereafter).

The battery drains when the computer is not in use, that's sort of the point.

In the 6100, the video will NOT come on if the battery is dead. I bought 100 lbs of 6100s on ebay back in 1999 and believe I learned this from experience (I'm fuzzy on the details now).

edit: But I should mention I cannot remember whether the boot chime sound will occur if the battery is dead. :-|

P · Mar 22, 2007, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bwa

Just in case anyone wants to follow this advice, beware that the 6100 memory (72 pin SIMMs, installed in pairs) will not physically fit in a 7200 (168 pin DIMMs).

Not without an adapter, no. Sorry, forgot about the 64-bit FPM DIMMs in those Powermacs.

Timetheus · Mar 22, 2007, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Bwa

The battery drains when the computer is not in use, that's sort of the point.

In the 6100, the video will NOT come on if the battery is dead. I bought 100 lbs of 6100s on ebay back in 1999 and believe I learned this from experience (I'm fuzzy on the details now).

edit: But I should mention I cannot remember whether the boot chime sound will occur if the battery is dead. :-|

Does anyone know if it will chime with a dead battery? BTW, my LC III worked just fine with the replacement I took from it.

Sherman Homan · Mar 22, 2007, 12:08 PM

Does anyone know if it will chime with a dead battery? BTW, my LC III worked just fine with the replacement I took from it.

It will chime, but it won't light up the video circuit. Here is the trick: hit Control, Apple and the power key together after the startup chime, it will soft restart and the video will work. Probably!