[Jansar]

I was wondering what the best compression method for a movie is. I have Qucktime Pro, but when I compress my movies (from DV), they either turn out to be a good size (but TERRIBLE quality) or extremely large (although ACCEPTABLE quality). Does anyone out there know the best way to compress a movie, like the people from MacAddict do when they make their staff videos?

[jcarr]

I'm sure the folks at MacAddict are using a pro tool like Media Cleaner or S�renson Squeeze.

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: jcarr ]

[Jansar]

Ah! Right on! I better get going on those different programs, then. Thanks for your help.

[wvx]

Get On2's VP3 codec, you can compress movies at 320x240 30fps at well under 100Kilobytes/sec and they look great.

[robdobby]

Originally posted by wvx:
<STRONG>Get On2's VP3 codec, you can compress movies at 320x240 30fps at well under 100Kilobytes/sec and they look great.</STRONG>

I've been having the same experience as Jansar. My 1 minute movie exported from iMovie2 becomes 40 MB using Sorenson 3 at 320x240 30 fps. At 640x480, it is nearly 300 MB. If I export it as uncompressed DV, it is nearly 1 GB, which doesn't make sense to me, because thats much larger than the original iMovie2 project files. I've been searching for a magic web site or discussion board that has a comprehensive discussion of the relative merits of different codecs, but all I see are individual recommendations.



Can you tell me what format iMovie2 DV files are?

Thank you

[robdobby]

Originally posted by robdobby:
<STRONG>Can you tell me what format iMovie2 DV files are?</STRONG>

Okay, a little more searching has answered my question, DV is the actual codec. When I saw the iMovie2 project files were described as 'DV', I thought it stood for 'digital video in general', not a specific codec.

[jtc]

Originally posted by jcarr:
<STRONG>I'm sure the folks at MacAddict are using a pro tool like Media Cleaner or S�renson Squeeze.

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: jcarr ]</STRONG>

Both of those look nice, but they're expensive (for someone like me who just does this sort of stuff for kicks). Are there any free (or really cheap) codecs that do a decent job? I've tried exporting iMovies using sorenson 3, motion jpeg A, and toast's NTSC VCD.

I like toast's compressor the best, but I don't like that I can't tweak the settings. For my 60 minute movies it's great since they will fit on a single CD, but I don't want to have to use 2 discs for the longer movies.

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: jtc ]

[lucylawless]

the front-running codecs right now are divx, 3ivx, vp3 and sorenson. MPEG1 is a runner-up, and Apple's vapor-ware MPEG4 codec just might pull ahead of all of them. I personally loathe the idea, but you might also consider Real or ASF; they each have very good compression, but not very good quality, and playback is a nightmare. I think ZygoVideo is about the same quality/compression as Real and ASF, but as a quicktime codec it is much friendlier. You can take my word for it, but you're better off making a short test clip with a good mix of light/dark and high/low action, and testing it with each codec. I don't know of any general compression discussion forums, but divx.com has one. Also 3ivx.com had one that got shut down, but you can still find the pages in google's cache (in advanced search, limit to the 3ivx.com domain)

3ivx, vp3, Zygo and Sorenson are quicktime codecs. I'm most familiar with 3ivx. It has excellent quality, good compression, and it's free. At a resolution of 640x272 you can get about 2 hours of better-than-VHS quality into 700 MB. The drawback is the playback requirements. I estimate you need a 400mhz G4 or better to play a movie of that resolution, and I don't think even the fastest computers can play back full size 640x480. On the other hand, you very rarely see video that big of any format except on DVDs. Also with 3ivx, you have to make sure to cut off any black borders around the edges of your video, as these will ruin the compression efficiency. I do this with the Mask function of QTPro.

vp3 doesn't try to retain as much detail as 3ivx, but the playback requirements are much easier. Other than that, I don't know much about it.

A version of Sorenson comes with quicktime 5. Sorenson is also the format that Apple and many other companies use to make high-quality, low bandwidth quicktime movies. But in my experience, the free version of Sorenson is pretty worthless for compression, and I've decided the good sorenson movies you see around must be using the advanced features you get for $400 like B-frames and second-pass VBR.

You already know about MPEG1 (VCD). If you do get your hands on Cleaner, you can adjust the settings, but Cleaner is very very slow at compressing. Toast's VCD exporter is fast and cheap, and I don't think it's any worse quality than cleaner's. I think MPEG1 is a fixed-bitrate spec, so if your video is low-motion, it won't save you on compression.

The divx codec is very similar to 3ivx, except that at this point it lives mostly in the inferior AVI format. Also, you can only encode it from the Windows platform, though they claim they are beta testing a Mac version. Also there's the quicktime-avi-mp3 bug. Since most of these codecs only cover video, you probably want to use mp3 for audio. But since AVIs can't officially contain mp3 tracks, quicktime doesn't play them correctly. You can fix this with a utility from the jamby divx package, called avi2mov, which just takes the video and audio tracks from the avi and puts them in a mov wrapper. Then you can throw away the avi, but you'll never be able to play that mov file on Windows again. it's awkward.

[jtc]

Thanks for the answer.

I'll try VP3, I've heard good thing about it, too.

I'm not a fan of real player or asf (real isn't even an option until there's a player for OS X), and divx seems like a mess right now.

I've got a 3 minute clip I'm working on that I'll export using some of the codecs you suggested, and see which looks best.

[DocWest]

I have been using 3ivx a bit lately and i find it to be pretty good. I encode mostly at 320x240 and my G3 400 handles that no problem. I go with the quality on 91%, and blur on either level 1 or 2. (Aids in compression, still looks good)
For sound, if it's high quality music, i use IMA 4:1, otherwise QDesign Music 2, or qualcomm purevoice if really low quality like speech.

Ripping DVDs has never been more fun.
oh, and for iMovies too

[T Allen]

Originally posted by DocWest:
<STRONG>I go with the quality on 91%, and blur on either level 1 or 2. (Aids in compression, still looks good)
</STRONG>

I just downloaded the 3ivx Delta 3.5. The Read Me file says this is the free test version of the encoder and that the codec operates in FULL-VBR mode only.
Is this the one you're using? You can't specify. . . oh, I see they have a $10 version. That one allows you to specify data rate, artifact reduction, etc. This is the one you must be using. Right?

[Jansar]

I have the Sorenson Squeeze program. Media Cleaner doesn't go for OS X. It works fine.

[lucylawless]

Originally posted by T Allen:
<STRONG>

I just downloaded the 3ivx Delta 3.5. The Read Me file says this is the free test version of the encoder and that the codec operates in FULL-VBR mode only.
Is this the one you're using? You can't specify. . . oh, I see they have a $10 version. That one allows you to specify data rate, artifact reduction, etc. This is the one you must be using. Right?</STRONG>

he's using the free version. The Data Rate Tracking lets you specify a target datarate (like 80 KB/s for example). Otherwise the datarate is based only on what size is necessary to maintain the quality setting you've given

[C.J. Moof]

For home use, hipflics from Totally Hip software is a pretty cool compression app. The 4-up codec comparison is pretty nice.

Then when you're really into QT authoring, check out their LiveStage Pro.

[pdot]

if you have the time and patience, you may want to wait for MPEG4 and see how that pans out. If it's going to outshine the rest of the codecs out there, I'm planning on getting QT Pro again. My computer doesn't seem to happy with 3ivX. Maybe it's b/c I'm using the OS X version.

[lucylawless]

Originally posted by pdot:
<STRONG>My computer doesn't seem to happy with 3ivX. Maybe it's b/c I'm using the OS X version.</STRONG>

I use the OS X version almost exclusively with no problems. I could help you troubleshoot your problem if you can be more specific

[dani++]

So what is the scenario now? (Specially on MacOSX)

QT6 preview is out and so is MPEG-4 playback and ecoding/decoding.

I am using Media Cleaner Pro on MacOSX and so far the results have not been entirely satisfactory, in fact I am having a lot of problems accepting anything other than .mov as input. My problem is that the video data capture is done on mediocre PCs using cheapo capture cards and I there's no DV there for now.

BTW, Cleaner accepts the new QT6 MPEG-4 settings but the resulting .mp4 file can't be read. It is odd that the encoding settings appear twice, once with Apple's settings dialogs and once on the MCP specific ones. There's presently no way of using only one.

MPlayer for OSX does not display .mp4's files in any way.

Does anyone have any specific info on this? Thanks in advance.

Dani++

[lucylawless]

I've noticed the same thing. Mp4 support in cleaner is definitely half-baked, and in QT preview it's about 3/4 baked. I think I even exported an mp4 from quicktime that it wouldn't play. And as for the quality, I've seen some amazing mp4's on the web, but I can't replicate the quality at decent bitrates (I've tried all the settings except the data-rate control, I guess I will play with that a little).

As for the other codecs:
3ivx is now much better than the last time this thread was at the top. A preview release of the d4 version eases the playback requirements and quality by a great deal, with the use of post-filters (you also install d3.5 for encoding). 3ivx d4 also plays divx content now. And the 3ivx message board is back.

the divx situation has gotten worse, if anything. There is still no mac encoder, and the latest version (5.0.2) has features that make movies unplayable with any of the mac quicktime decoders (divx.com, 3ivx.com and jamby.net). On the plus side, someone has come up with a way to play the older MSMPEG4v1 and MSMPEG4v2 flavors of divx on OS X. Check the divx or 3ivx message boards for links. I used to have to send MSMPEG4v1 movies to a pc to re-encode them, (v2 could be played in classic). The OS X decoder doesn't have post-filters, so they still look a little better in Windows....Also, for OS X you can now play divx files with sound with no 'doctoring' with Video Lan Client. It has a few bugs, and the audio still pops from time to time (especially after pausing), but it plays divx/vcd/dvd with no conversion (and no FBI warning. In OS 9 I could stop and start to skip the FBI warning. Does anyone know how to do that or show the time index in the OS X DVD player?)

oh yeah, RidDifferent has a video compression forum that is generally objective and mac-friendly
<a href="http://www.macdvd.org/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Video+Compres sion+|AMP|+Codecs&number=2&DaysPrune=&LastLogin=" target="_blank">http://www.macdvd.org/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Video+Compres sion+|AMP|+Codecs&number=2&DaysPrune=&LastLogin=</a>

cheers

[mitchell_pgh]

I had hoped that MP4 and QT6 would be the cure for all this Divx/3ivx bla bla bla crap, but it's not that great. I can't find a zone... the files are either bigger then I want, or the quality is crap... Granted, I don't have FCP or anything, but still... What's the deal...

[applenut1]

you guys getting huge filesizes for 1 minute long clips don't know what you're doing.

I just did a 3 minute DV capture. I opened it with QT 6. used Sorenson 3. 24 fps, 90K/sec datarate, key frame every 24 frames., 480 x 360
filesize:16.5 MB

quality is good. not exactly great but if I lowered the keyframes a bit or increased the datrate to 100-110 it would have been perfect..

With MPEG 4 I did a 320 x 240 compress of a 39 second DV source clip. based my rates on the streaming 768K/sec preset and made a few adjustments to decrease audio and increase video datrates and it came out beautiful.

All you have to do is mess around and figure out what works best. You'll never get Apple quality sorenson but you can get very good results

[dani++]

Definitely, Media Cleaner is in complete disarray. I am checking out RipDifferent to see if I can get some insight there, thanks for the link. I am not really interested in viewing any of the content but in re-encoding it to WMV, RM and QT.

The main problem is in accepting any input that is high quality coming form a PC that is not .mov. Would a analog-to-DV converter + FireWire card on a PC produce readable files in the DV codec? But in what format? Windows Media Encoder is no use as it only encodes to .wmv files that nobody (except them) legally reads. VirtualDub is pretty shaky and does not work properly.

I have entered into the realm of PC video and I have found it in utter chaos: divx, 3vix, 4vix, MSMPEG4v1, MSMPEG4v2, MSMPEG4v3, AVI, MSMPEG4v4, WMV, and lots and lots of bizarre codec and file combinations. And I have yet to find a single combination that can be accepted by Cleaner and re-compressed, with such a situation, Media Cleaner becomes useless.

Morevoer, on the WMV faq, they say that WMEncoder supports ISO MPEG4, but only on .mwv files (it can only be viewed then) and they recommend to use wm8 as a coded for most situations. MPEG-LA should better get their asses moving or their precious standard will wither and die.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">Originally posted by lucylawless:
<strong>I've noticed the same thing. Mp4 support in cleaner is definitely half-baked, and in QT preview it's about 3/4 baked. I think I even exported an mp4 from quicktime that it wouldn't play. And as for the quality, I've seen some amazing mp4's on the web, but I can't replicate the quality at decent bitrates (I've tried all the settings except the data-rate control, I guess I will play with that a little).

As for the other codecs:
3ivx is now much better than the last time this thread was at the top. A preview release of the d4 version eases the playback requirements and quality by a great deal, with the use of post-filters (you also install d3.5 for encoding). 3ivx d4 also plays divx content now. And the 3ivx message board is back.

the divx situation has gotten worse, if anything. There is still no mac encoder, and the latest version (5.0.2) has features that make movies unplayable with any of the mac quicktime decoders (divx.com, 3ivx.com and jamby.net). On the plus side, someone has come up with a way to play the older MSMPEG4v1 and MSMPEG4v2 flavors of divx on OS X. Check the divx or 3ivx message boards for links. I used to have to send MSMPEG4v1 movies to a pc to re-encode them, (v2 could be played in classic). The OS X decoder doesn't have post-filters, so they still look a little better in Windows....Also, for OS X you can now play divx files with sound with no 'doctoring' with Video Lan Client. It has a few bugs, and the audio still pops from time to time (especially after pausing), but it plays divx/vcd/dvd with no conversion (and no FBI warning. In OS 9 I could stop and start to skip the FBI warning. Does anyone know how to do that or show the time index in the OS X DVD player?)

oh yeah, RidDifferent has a video compression forum that is generally objective and mac-friendly
<a href="http://www.macdvd.org/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Video+Compres sion+|AMP|+Codecs&number=2&DaysPrune=&LastLogin=" target="_blank">http://www.macdvd.org/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi ?action=topics&forum=Video+Compression+|AMP|+Codec s&number=2&DaysPrune=&LastLogin=</a>

cheers</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="1" face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">

[neutrino23]

I had a similar experience. The free or inexpensive video codecs don't do nearly as well as the professional ones do. I guess this is no surprise. If the free codecs worked really well there would be little market for the expensive ones.

[kidtexas]

I was able to get relatively good output with QT6 and mpeg4. 2 notes. When I first was doing it, I would export video via the export command, movie to MPEG4. It would play back fine on my computer, but if I tried to download it through a webserver, it wouldn't play. Then I realized that you don't export to MPEG4 in that manner. Do Export to Quicktime Movie, then select MPEG4 as your video and audio codec. I was able to reduce a 7.5 min iMovie (in .dv format) to a 320x213 (odd sizes preserve the DV formatted ratio) 15fps movie with good sound. Size was 12 megs. Original size was 1.5 gigs or so.

Settings I have had success with:
video set to medium quality, 15fps, keyframe every 10, data rate 20kb/s, pro encode. Audio set to 56k/s or so gives excellent quality sound. If you bump up the video rate to 30kb/s, the resulting movie was about 17 megs. Better quality for sure, but so much to warrant an extra 5 meg download. This is the setting I am using for downloaded versions of movies.

I also fooled around with an 80kb/s for sound and video on the same movie at 520x346 (other settings the same). That came out to be 40 megs. I'm sure if you wanted to go higher quality, you could.

For another video (about 4 mins long) using the first settings, the video came out to about 6 megs. A comparable quality movie with the similar settings using Sorenson 3 (the free one) was about 20 megs.

hope this helps.