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Mars_Attacks · Mar 27, 2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by denim:
Apples and oranges. The Dells and others are expandable machines. The Macs in that price range are not.

What, you mean the Dells are incomplete when you buy them?

My wifey's iMac was complete and needed no further expansion.

christ · Mar 27, 2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by denim:
The main thing holding the Mac back is the size of its audience...

You are wrong.

If the Mac audience was the size of the PC audience, the incentive to innovate and design would go from Apple, and then Macs and PCs would become indistinguishable. Then we could all cheer, Apple would have countless billions, and we (Mac users) would lose the computing experience that we cherish.

What makes Apple special is driven by its minority position.

Ergo, what keeps driving the Mac forward is the size of its Audience.

PS And Apple seem to keep their heads above water on their market share.

christ · Mar 27, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by denim:
...Apple is still using a model which has been shown to NOT WORK by almost every company that tried it...

almost

Apple's model works for Apple.

Apple have been making money, on and off, for decades. They have billions in the bank, and every year they sell more computers than the year before, and every computer they sell is more desirable than anything the PC makers produce.

Failed companies are doing things wrong. Successful companies are doing at least something right.

christ · Mar 27, 2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by denim:
Apples and oranges. The Dells and others are expandable machines. The Macs in that price range are not.

The Apples in that price range are fairly recent developments. The Dells et al are not.

Shall I continue?

Tosh.

Comparing Apples and non-Apples.

What is not-expandable about the ability to add fire wire devices? RAM? Airport? USB devices?

What is desirable about having to open the case to add a hard drive? Especially for those folk targetted by sub-$1000 machines.

How do you expand a $1000 Dell to talk to a digital video camera? Simple. Buy a firewire card. Open up the box. Without frying any of the components on the motherboard, add the PCI card. Put it all together. Start it up. Mess with the BIOS. Mess with the drivers. Load Windows Movie Maker. Cry.

How do you expand a $1000 Mac to talk to a digital video camera? Tough. Plug it in. Use iMovie. Resent the PC user his simplicity.

Continue, please.

DeathMan · Mar 27, 2003, 06:08 PM

I agree with Chris.

I think that Apple computers are more complete out of the box. Even the lower priced ones like the eMac. Firewire, usb, ethernet. What else do you really need when you're buying a consumer comp?

Why would you buy a $300 soundcard and put it into a $500 computer? I doubt you're going to get your top performance out of it.

Consumer computers are disposible. Apple consumer computers are less disposible than any PC manufacturer I cant think of.

I know people who still run those little Mac classic all in ones. They have a old printer hooked up that they use and refill themselves. Write papers, little kids play games on it. Its amazing to me.

How many PCs that old are still in use? Real consumer use?

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by besson3c:
Both Macs and PCs are pretty much use and dispose.

Very true for many people/companies. Given that, why should they spend the extra money for a Mac? All the bean counters see is the numbers. If you want to make a case with them, you have to come in at a competitive price. Apple doesn't do that.

The thing is that if requirements change, I can modify the hardware in a fairly low cost Intel box. I can't do that in the cheapest Macs. If the requirements change and I have an eMac, the eMac either becomes a hinderance or it becomes trash.

Oh, and I don't need to sell you. You need to convince large quantities of people and corporations that you're right. Hasn't been done yet, even by Apple.

besson3c · Mar 28, 2003, 10:52 AM

denim:

It will take more than a $500 price tag for Macs to be adopted by businesses.

In government organizations such as state universities, price is *not* the issue. Departments are taken away money that isn't spent!

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
What, you mean the Dells are incomplete when you buy them?

My wifey's iMac was complete and needed no further expansion.

Nope, I mean that if your wife's needs change, she needs to replace her Mac because she can't upgrade it much. If I have an Intel box, and I need to change stuff, I can.

For instance, if I'm a gamer and the graphics card becomes too slow for current software, I can swap it out. Can't do that with an iMac.

For a more likely example, take an original iMac and add a WiFi transceiver to it. Or Firewire. Or a better GPU. Go ahead, I want to watch.

For the tasks which anyone can do with any computer, a Mac is easier to use, more pleasing, can be argued to crash less, but it's not going to appeal to Joe Worker out in Michigan who only cares about getting his share of porn as cheaply as he can, and being able to ask his buddy down the street for help when he needs it.

In general, Mac users can't do that.

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by christ:
If the Mac audience was the size of the PC audience, the incentive to innovate and design would go from Apple, and then Macs and PCs would become indistinguishable.

Very weak argument. It's not possible to support it w/o trying and seeing what happens.

What makes Apple special is driven by its minority position.

Interesting theory, but I don't buy it.

besson3c · Mar 28, 2003, 10:59 AM

Nope, I mean that if your wife's needs change, she needs to replace her Mac because she can't upgrade it much. If I have an Intel box, and I need to change stuff, I can.

I'll ask this again:

what percentage of computer owners end up opening up their machines to replace things? What percentage of computer owners care?

You're seriously deluding yourself if you think this exceeds 1 or 2 percent, in my opinion!

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by christ:
Apple's model works for Apple.

Okay, that I can't argue with... directly.

The problem is that the model doesn't work for customers, who still run WinTel machines even though they curse them out all the time.

The reason that there's not more software (of whatever sort) for the Mac is that the audience is too small. The reason the audience is too small is because Joe User can get his porn for less money by going elsewhere.

If they can get the system into Joe User's house, they increase their audience and attract developers. I'm in the industry. I see how it works. WinTel machines, while despised by just about everyone, are used because they're cheap, they're easily repurposed, and everyone supports them, even Apple (see "iPod").

Argue with me all you like, but you can't argue with the world and win.

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by christ:
What is not-expandable about the ability to add fire wire devices? RAM? Airport? USB devices?

Recent, only. Apple also has to deal with the existing concept of itself in the world's collective concienceness: expensive and hard to modify. A seriously cheap box would at least get their foot in the door.

What is desirable about having to open the case to add a hard drive? Especially for those folk targetted by sub-$1000 machines.

You're trying to "grow mindshare" (God but I hate to use market-speak) so that you can start the spiral of "cheaper" -> "more" -> "cheaper" -> "more". Apple can't compete on that basis with the Walmart of "Windows" (or "Linux") plus "Intel".

How do you expand a $1000 Dell to talk to a digital video camera? Simple. Buy a firewire card. Open up the box. Without frying any of the components on the motherboard, add the PCI card. Put it all together. Start it up. Mess with the BIOS. Mess with the drivers. Load Windows Movie Maker. Cry.

Yup. However, that user has shoulders to lean on and people to help him out, probably down the street or at the Grange or whatever. Can you say that about Apple's products other than the iPod?

Also, that user's machine may have come with 1394 these days. Certainly they've been coming with USB about as long as Apple's equipment has, if not longer.

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by DeathMan:
I agree with Chris.

So do I. That's not the point. We're discussing this among the Faithful, if you will. I'm playing devil's advocate, using what I've been seeing for the last year or so as ammo.

besson3c · Mar 28, 2003, 11:11 AM

Denim:

I don't agree with you.

The reason why Joe User doesn't have a Mac is because:

1) they feel they need a PC to be compatible and competitive with the world and/or have a PC in their own workplace

2) aren't informed enough to have an opinion about which platform is the best for them, resort to what they happen to know (this accounts for a *LOT* of people)

3) their friends/family/support are PC based

4) they need to run speciality applications

5) don't live near an Apple store or a place where they are around Macs

6) come from a foreign country where PCs dominate. Resort to what they know.

7) price

I don't know what order I would put this list in in terms of what I feel are the strongest of these factors, but price would be about halfway down the list.

If it were the number 1 factor, those $500 Walmart PCs would have swallowed up all those $1000 PCs.

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by besson3c:
It will take more than a $500 price tag for Macs to be adopted by businesses.

True, it'll take a mind change to get it into many businesses. They've already been burned, from their POV, by Apple in the past, some of them. Others are simply brainwashed by the Windows ads on TV.

So, how do you suggest that Apple should compete? You can't raise the price, as that's fatal. You've got to lower it some, at least. Apple obviously sees that much. What else?

In government organizations such as state universities, price is *not* the issue. Departments are taken away money that isn't spent!

True, and Apple is clearly working on the Government-sales issue by getting Gore on the board.

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by besson3c:
what percentage of computer owners end up opening up their machines to replace things? What percentage of computer owners care?

It's your question: you answer it.

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by besson3c:
I don't agree with you.

Should I take TUMS?

If it were the number 1 factor, those $500 Walmart PCs would have swallowed up all those $1000 PCs.

And you think they haven't put a dent in the market?

besson3c · Mar 28, 2003, 11:34 AM

It will take more than a $500 price tag for Macs to be adopted by businesses.

True, it'll take a mind change to get it into many businesses. They've already been burned, from their POV, by Apple in the past, some of them. Others are simply brainwashed by the Windows ads on TV.

So, how do you suggest that Apple should compete? You can't raise the price, as that's fatal. You've got to lower it some, at least. Apple obviously sees that much. What else?

What I think it will take:

Their price points need to stay about where they are. Their Desktop Power Mac can drop in price, but they aren't selling a whole lot right now anyway so the difference would probably be negligible for right now.

There are some issues with initial purchase price, I won't deny that. Apple's best bet is to get their Power Mac into a very competitive position, as this will probably be the first machine that businesses look at.

The business world can cope with iMacs and/or laptops, although they'll have to "think different" a little to except the LCD iMac styling/image into the workplace. I suppose this is also a factor, sadly.

It will take convincing that Macs can be compatible and functional in this environment, and save the business money. This does not translate into lower purchase price necessarily (although this helps), but lower cost of ownership, less headaches, cost of support, cost of software, increased productivity, etc.

The momentum has to swing towards Apple a little bit more in general. Apple developing their own office product might help produce some of this mementum with positive press.

All the key financial software and software businesses rely on has to at least exist on the Mac, but preferably also be strong.

Business will have to feel that they won't be putting themselves at a disadvantage by equipping themselves with Macs as far as being able to cooperate with the rest of the business world.

Macs would have to offer businesses an advantage to inspire the switch. While there already are some (e.g. no/little viruses), staff may have be retrained. Some might cling to their PC knowledge for fear of losing their jobs.

Businesses will have to justify additional software purchase to migrate to the Mac, costs from changing support bases. While it probably costs less to support Macs, business will need to be convinced that this is worthwhile retraining/rehiring and will result in increased productivity.

Businesses will have to be convinced that this downtime associated with the migration is worth it.

These are just some of my thoughts off the top of my head, the last few points are probably the strongest of the bunch.

A business looks at computer purchases like this:

If you are purchasing new machinery (computers), you are trading one asset (cash) for another (machinery). If this can be justified, there is no reason for businesses not to do this. It's not the same as a customer who is buying a machine for the home which will probably not pay itself off through the work produced on it (unless you are a freelance web designer, whatever).

besson3c · Mar 28, 2003, 11:36 AM

what percentage of computer owners end up opening up their machines to replace things? What percentage of computer owners care?

It's your question: you answer it

Okay, probably less than 2%

besson3c · Mar 28, 2003, 11:39 AM

If it were the number 1 factor, those $500 Walmart PCs would have swallowed up all those $1000 PCs.

And you think they haven't put a dent in the market?

They have, but there is still plenty of room in the market for $1000 machines. Emachines haven't destroyed the markets of Dell, HP, Gateway entirely. This is also Apple's market. They (Apple) will never survive selling machines cheaper than their competitors for as long as they want to push this digital hub thing (which is great).

OwlBoy · 12:58 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
I get CVs/Resumes on which people claim to have experience with Adobe, Claris and Lotus.

No job for them.

LMAO! Good job!

And guys, I think you derailed the thread.

-Owl

christ · Mar 28, 2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by denim:
Very weak argument. It's not possible to support it w/o trying and seeing what happens...

Tee Hee.

this applies to all speculation - yours mine, and the whole world. It is hardly a classic rebuff:

"My <supposed fact> is ..., but your theory is weak, because you can't be sure that you are right unless it is tried"

In my view "Devil's Advocate" and "troll" are synonyms

denim · Mar 28, 2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by christ:
In my view "Devil's Advocate" and "troll" are synonyms

You're the guy going around as "Christ".

olePigeon · Mar 28, 2003, 04:38 PM

I used to have an OrangePC 620 card. My Mac ran Windows.

Those cards were leet.

christ · Mar 28, 2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by denim:
You're the guy going around as "Christ".

little 'c'