[moki]

You know, it really cheeses me off. China executes 90% of the people in the world in terms of state-sponsored executions, some of them likely for their organs rather than their crimes... and these idiots in Austria give that a pass, and instead protesting because we're offing a gang leader convicted of several counts of murder.

Singapore, despite being a flea-speck sized country of about 5 million people has executed in the past 20 years almost as many people as the USA, a country of almost 300 million people... and they are given a pass too, despite the crimes largely being drug offenses, not vicious murders like our beloved "Tookie".

Hello, double-standard. I way we ship all the crips and bloods to Europe, then check back in 20 years...

from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10450663/from/RSS/

.....

Europeans outraged at Williams execution Austrians disappointed in Schwarzenegger, suggest revoking citizenship

The Associated Press Updated: 10:40 a.m. ET Dec. 13, 2005

VIENNA, Austria - California's execution of Stanley Tookie Williams on Tuesday outraged many in Europe who regard the practice as barbaric, and politicians in Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's native Austria called for his name to be removed from a sports stadium in his hometown.

At the Vatican, Pope Benedict XVI's top official for justice matters denounced the death penalty for going against redemption and human dignity.

"We know the death penalty doesn't resolve anything," Cardinal Renato Martino told AP Television News. "Even a criminal is worthy of respect because he is a human being. The death penalty is a negation of human dignity."

Capital punishment is illegal throughout the European Union, and many Europeans consider state-sponsored executions to be barbaric. Those feelings were amplified in the case of Williams, due to the apparent remorse they believe the Crips gang co-founder showed by writing children's books about the dangers of gangs and violence.

Leaders of Austria's pacifist Green Party went as far as to call for Schwarzenegger to be stripped of his Austrian citizenship — a demand that was quickly rejected by Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel despite his government's opposition to the death penalty.

"Whoever, out of political calculation, allows the death of a person rehabilitated in such an exemplary manner has rejected the basic values of Austrian society," said Peter Pilz, a Greens leader.

'Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium'? In Schwarzenegger's hometown of Graz, local Greens said they would file a petition to remove his name from the southern city's sports stadium. A Christian political group went even further, suggesting it be renamed the "Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium."

"Mr. Williams had converted, and unlike Mr. Schwarzenegger, opposed every form of violence," said Richard Schadauer, the chairman of the Association of Christianity and Social Democracy.

Williams was executed early Tuesday at California's San Quentin State Prison after Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency. Schwarzenegger suggested that Williams' supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the killings committed by the Crips.

Criticism came quickly from many quarters, including the Socialist Party in France, where the death penalty was abolished in 1981.

"I am proud to be a Frenchman," party spokesman Julien Dray told RTL radio. "I am proud to live in France, in a country where we don't execute somebody 21 years later."

"Schwarzenegger has a lot of muscles, but apparently not much heart," Dray said.

In Italy, the country's chapter of Amnesty International called the execution "a cold-blooded murder."

"His execution is a slap in the face to the principle of rehabilitation of inmates, an inhumane and inclement act toward a person who, with his exemplary behavior and his activity in favor of street kids, had become an important figure and a symbol of hope for many youths," the group said.

'A cowardly decision'

In Germany, Volker Beck, a leading member of the opposition Greens party, expressed disappointment. "Schwarzenegger's decision is a cowardly decision," Beck told the Netzeitung online newspaper.

From London, Clive Stafford-Smith, a human rights attorney specializing in death penalty cases, called the execution "very sad."

"He was twice as old as when they sentenced him to die, and he certainly wasn't the same person that he was when he was sentenced," Stafford-Smith said.

Rome Mayor Walter Veltroni said the city would keep Williams in its memory the next time it celebrates a victory against the death penalty somewhere in the world.

Rome's Colosseum, once the arena for deadly gladiator combat and executions, has become a symbol of Italy's anti-death penalty stance. Since 1999, the monument has been bathed in golden light every time a death sentence is commuted somewhere in the world or a country abolishes capital punishment.

"I hope there will be such an occasion soon," Veltroni said in a statement. "When it happens, we will do it with a special thought for Tookie."

[Cody Dawg]

It's simple: Europeans are far more civilized and socially-conscious than Americans.

They seem to understand that killing as a punishment does NOT deter murders.

Tookie Williams was doing a lot more by being alive and urging his message of reform than he ever will dead.

It's a true shame.

[Sky Captain]

I guess you haven't seen his violent record he's obtained while in prison?

And no one is outraged over the lives he took anymore either.

[placebo1969]

Capital punishment is NOT about deterrence. I thought it was about punishment of the most final kind.

Regarding the original post: I agree. There are a lot of Europeans who seem to find it easy to criticize the US when other things are seemingly overlooked.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

And no one is outraged over the lives he took anymore either.

I've been trying to stay out of these tookie threads, but this is something that I keep seeing repeated by the Death Penalty advocates that is simply incorrect. People who were opposed to this execution generally lie in two camps:

- Those who truly believe he is innocent. They don't believe he took those four lives he is accused of taking.

- Those who do not advocate the Death Penalty in any case (like me). We do not want to let him walk off scot-free for the murders he was convicted of all that time ago, we simply don't believe anyone should be killed as a punishment. Life in prison without possibility of parole should be the ultimate punishment. (You could argue that if he had recieved that sentence initially, he would not have this much attention now.) We are outraged over his crimes and demand justice, but out justice does not stoop to the same level as his crimes.

As for the double-standard, it certainly exists. China and Singapore may execute more people, but we're Americans, and should know better, I guess.

[Sky Captain]

It is supposed to be a detourrant. As is prison.
When one dosen't respect the law and rules of society in the first place, nothing will work.
All a society can do is prevent an offender from collecting more victims.
Death is a sure way to ensure one like Tookie can no longer practice his trade of death.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by moki

You know, it really cheeses me off. China executes 90% of the people in the world in terms of state-sponsored executions, some of them likely for their organs rather than their crimes... and these idiots in Austria give that a pass, and instead protesting because we're offing a gang leader convicted of several counts of murder.

Singapore, despite being a flea-speck sized country of about 5 million people has executed in the past 20 years almost as many people as the USA, a country of almost 300 million people... and they are given a pass too, despite the crimes largely being drug offenses, not vicious murders like our beloved "Tookie".

Hello, double-standard.

I much prefer a double standard for us than to compare us to China, like you have done here. I'd hope that it was assumed we were better than the other countries on the list of top executers: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Congo, Afghanistan. Apparently in your mind we're no better than them and shouldn't be judged differently. It seems to me like the Europeans you criticize have higher standards for the US than you do.

Why do you hate America moki? Why don't you go live in one of those other countries if you think we're all the same.

[black bear theory]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

It is supposed to be a detourrant. As is prison.
When one dosen't respect the law and rules of society in the first place, nothing will work.
All a society can do is prevent an offender from collecting more victims.
Death is a sure way to ensure one like Tookie can no longer practice his trade of death.

deterrent.

well, yes. one like Tookie might, but Tookie wasn't when he died. he was working towards recreating communities where there had once been gangs. i am not sure how solid his case was about being innocent. it is something that he claimed up to his death. the fact that schwarznegger said he hadn't confessed was a sign that he wasn't rehabilitated was a cop-out as far as i'm concerned. confess to something you didn't do to save[sic] your life, or maintain your innocence and die.

he seemed to be calm and articulate when i heard him interviewed and he spoke out against violence. maybe it was just a cover? secretly, internally a stark raving mad killing machine but exuding a nice peaceful outwardly countenance. but i doubt it.

it's too bad in this case, imo. but there is a law.

[Doofy]

Mostly indifferent from this bit of Europe. Most folks seem to be saying "I don't support the death penalty but if the yanks want to do that kind of thing it's up to them, it's their country".

[Rolling Bones]

Tookie is in Heaven now.

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Mostly indifferent from this bit of Europe. Most folks seem to be saying "I don't support the death penalty but if the yanks want to do that kind of thing it's up to them, it's their country".

Same here. It's been in the news but mostly because Americans are outraged by it.

[Y3a]

Removing vermin so they don't have the chance to kill again, and make others(not the stupid ones) think twice about taking lives.



Good riddance!

The EU community isn't THAT civilized, more like sheeple.

[Millennium]

How is executing a murderer a violation of his human dignity? Furthermore, is it truly unjust for death to be a consequence of murder?

For that matter, what is "human dignity", anyway? I hear this phrase a lot from folks who favor censoring hate speech, redistributing wealth, and basically wreaking havoc with freedom for the sake of making things seem a little more pleasant to them while they pretend that the underlying problems don't still exist. But I've never managed to get a straight answer.

[Moderator]

State sanctioned murder is barbaric. Look at the company we keep. Doesn't seem odd to anyone else? Go social conservatism!


The twelve countries with the most executions in 2004:
Country Executions Executions per 100 million residents

1 Kuwait 9+ 400
2 China 3,400+ 260
3 Iran 159+ 230
4 Singapore 6+ 140
5 Saudi Arabia 33+ 130
6 Vietnam 64+ 77
7 Belarus 5+ 48
8 Yemen 6+ 30
9 United States 59 20
10 Pakistan 15+ 9
11 Egypt 6+ 8
12 Bangladesh 7+ 5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital..._present_world

[RAILhead]

[Cody Dawg]

When an execution occurs the ENTIRE community is executing the person.

When an execution occures the ENTIRE community is executed.

WE ARE *ALL* INVOLVED.

This is from the L.A. Times today:

SAN QUENTIN -- At 12:01 this morning, having exhausted all appeals, Stanley Tookie Williams shuffled into San Quentin's death chamber, shackled at the wrist and waist and escorted by four burly guards.

After he climbed onto a padded gurney, officers tied Williams down with wide, black straps across his shins, thighs, waist and chest. His arms, stretched out to the side, were secured with leather restraints.

At 12:03 a.m., two officers pulled on surgical gloves as another entered the chamber with a plastic tub of supplies. Three minutes later, a needle was thrust successfully home into Williams' right arm and connected to an intravenous tube.

The rules, however, require a back-up in case one line should jostle loose or fail. And it was here that the carefully choreographed execution turned messy.

For 12 long minutes, a prison technician-her brow glistening with sweat-poked the convict's muscular left arm again and again, searching for a vein that would deliver a dose of poison. As loved ones watched in distress, the inmate visibly winced in pain.

Ultimately, the needle found its mark, a stream of lethal chemicals flowed, and Williams — convicted of murdering four people with a shotgun in 1979 — drew his final breath.

Surprising many, he did not leave behind a statement for the warden to read. But his closest supporters made sure his departure from the world was not a quiet one. Filing out after witnessing the execution, they yelled a message in unison:

"The state of California just killed an innocent man!"

The startling cry pierced the silence that had cloaked the small room, and relatives of Williams' victims appeared shaken. Lora Owens, whose stepson, Albert, was gunned down at a Pico Rivera convenience store, hunched forward in her brown metal chair. Another woman offered a comforting embrace.

Owens left the prison without talking to reporters. But earlier, the red-haired grandmother said she had hoped that watching Williams die would soften the pain of her loss by allowing her to "let it go" a bit.

No family members of Williams' other victims were present.

Williams, 51, became the 12th man executed by the State of California since voters reinstated the death penalty more than a quarter century ago. While capital punishment inevitably stirs a wrenching debate, this case prompted an extraordinary outpouring from celebrities, clergy and others who urged that his life be spared.

On Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger declined to step in, and the courts said no to the convict's final appeals.

That meant a lethal injection for Inmate C29300. California's death row population was about to drop by one.

The drama at San Quentin began just shy of midnight Monday, inside the archaic chamber where condemned men used to be killed with poisonous gas.

As some two thousand people protested the execution just outside prison gates, 39 witnesses were ushered into a viewing area surrounding the windowed death chamber, some on risers, others seated behind a white railing that left them separated by only a few feet — and thick glass — from the procedure about to unfold inside.

Along with the victims and Williams' friends and lawyers, there were 17 reporters and a handful of unidentified observers invited by the state.

The crowded room seemed airless, and not a word was uttered. Earlier, all had been admonished not to talk, move or "sob too loudly." Violation of those rules, an officer said, meant immediate eviction "with no discussion."

As prison officials prepared for his execution, Williams lay still, dressed in white socks and prison blues. He wore a solemn expression and rimless spectacles on his face. His hair and graying beard were neatly clipped.

He tilted his head to the left, making eye contact in turn with his close friend Barbara Becnel, and two other friends, who responded by pumping their fists in the air. Out of his line of sight sat John Monaghan, the deputy district attorney from Los Angeles who led the fight against his mercy plea.

As the prison technician searched for a vein, Williams swiveled his head from side to side — mouthing words of support to friends. In return, Becnel and the others blew him kisses and mouthed messages back — "God bless you" and "I love you" among them.

As the minutes crawled by, Williams grew clearly frustrated by the continued prodding. At 12:12 a.m., he raised his head and spoke to an officer at his right shoulder, who swallowed but said nothing. Two minutes later, he raised his head, looked at the technician and appeared to say, "Still can't find it?"

Finally, the catheter was inserted and two officers began securing Williams' hands to the gurney with loop after loop of white adhesive tape. The officers then swiveled the padded table 90 degrees to the right — so that he faced his loved ones — and left the room.

At 12:21 a.m., the death warrant was read, broadcast so loudly it caused a few witnesses to jump. Williams moved his feet and seemed to writhe.

Then, an unseen hand behind the chamber's walls, began to pump three chemicals into Williams. First, came sodium pentothal to put him to sleep, followed by pancuronium bromide to stop his breathing, and finally potassium chloride to stop his heart.

It was impossible to know exactly when the poisons began to flow, but their effect was visible in Williams' body. His head — held up throughout much of the preparation period — fell back at 12:23 a.m. and did not lift again. His chest, not the 52 inches it was 30 years ago but still massive, stopped rising less than a minute after that.

Still, no one budged, until a porthole in a steel door slipped open, and a white paper appeared. Quoting Warden Steven Ornoski, an officer pronounced Williams dead. Soon after, the chamber's curtains were pulled closed.

As witnesses departed, some thought back to words they had heard hours earlier, from a prison psychologist charged with preparing everyone for the evening ahead.

Don't be surprised, warned Gregory Goldstein, if you feel panic, anxiety or other emotions similar to those one might experience while "stuck in a natural disaster." An execution, he added, is a "highly unusual event."

For the families of victims, it is also the official final punctuation on a traumatic event.

I find it grisly and disturbing that they actually swivel him around so that the onlookers - the death audience - can better watch him die.

How barbaric.

[RAILhead]

IF someone killed my wife, parents, nieces or nephews, if I hadn't already killed the offender myself, you'd better believe I'd make sure I got a good view of them dying.

I guess I'm a freakin' barbarian.

/grunt-grunt

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

IF someone killed my wife, parents, nieces or nephews, if I hadn't already killed the offender myself, you'd better believe I'd make sure I got a good view of them dying.

I guess I'm a freakin' barbarian.

/grunt-grunt

I'm curious how you reconcile that with your Christianity.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

I guess I'm a freakin' barbarian.

/grunt-grunt

barbarian...social conservative....potatos,patahtoes

[swrate]

Same as BRussel, I find it strange to compare China ex-communist country to the US

Why are Europeans outraged? For some of the same reasons many Americans are, Cody for example.

In Austria, this would never have been allowed. Bianca, Toopac, & Cie, all opponents to death penalty failed, I am so sorry.

[Sky Captain]

I had a piece of **** take the life of my first wife.
Now he gets to live. She got a metal box in Powder Springs GA.

[Cody Dawg]

That's what changed my mind: Christianity.

[saab95]

Originally Posted by moki

"We know the death penalty doesn't resolve anything," Cardinal Renato Martino told AP Television News. "Even a criminal is worthy of respect because he is a human being. The death penalty is a negation of human dignity."

Why is someone who forcefully disrupts another's right to life worthy of respect?

It's so weird how the religious, who claim a lock on morality, seem to enable the criminal.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I much prefer a double standard for us than to compare us to China, like you have done here. I'd hope that it was assumed we were better than the other countries on the list of top executers: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Congo, Afghanistan. Apparently in your mind we're no better than them and shouldn't be judged differently. It seems to me like the Europeans you criticize have higher standards for the US than you do.

Why do you hate America moki? Why don't you go live in one of those other countries if you think we're all the same.

One of the best statements I ever read in the polidiot lounge!

[greenamp]

Comparing the execution rates of various countries with completely different legal systems is not a valid argument because it assumes the executions happened for the same reasons.

For instance, country X may have executed 10 people for protesting against it's government, while country Y may have executed 10 people whom it's legal system deemed guilty of 1st degree murder.

I am in support of state sponsored executions of those found undeniably guilty of 1st degree murder. However, I do not support state sponsored execution for any other reasons, many of which could most likely be associated with the executions in other countries whose rates are being compared to the rates in the United States.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I'm curious how you reconcile that with your Christianity.

I don't reconcile it -- I admit I'm human, fallible, etc., and that there's a dadgum good chance that I'd blow someone away if they hurt or killed someone I love if I had the opportunity.

It's called being honest.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I much prefer a double standard for us than to compare us to China, like you have done here. I'd hope that it was assumed we were better than the other countries on the list of top executers: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Congo, Afghanistan. Apparently in your mind we're no better than them and shouldn't be judged differently. It seems to me like the Europeans you criticize have higher standards for the US than you do.

Why do you hate America moki? Why don't you go live in one of those other countries if you think we're all the same.

So this really isn't about respecting human life or any of that ******** — it's just about criticizing other countries based on your own personal feelings about them. (Well, either that or you're suggesting it's more acceptable to end a Chinese life than an American life. Because if it's the value of the life that causes it to be horrible, there's no reasonable way you could hold people to different standards.)

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by saab95

Why is someone who forcefully disrupts another's right to life worthy of respect?
It's so weird how the religious, who claim a lock on morality, seem to enable the criminal.

Catholics in particular (like the Cardinal you quoted) put a high value on life, and believe that everyone's life has value. Everyone is worthy of respect, because they were all made in God's image. They also take that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" thing very seriously, seriously enough to hold that killing is worse than any injustice the killing is supposed to "correct".

It has nothing to do with enabling the criminal. A Catholic would have no problem with giving a murderer the harshest of penalties short of death. They also believe that anyone can be redeemed, so that if the criminal honestly comes to terms with his action, accepts responsibility and the fact that he needs to serve out his sentence, and turns his life around while in prison, maybe when he dies in prison his immortal soul will not be condemmed.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by badidea

One of the best statements I ever read in the polidiot lounge!

Heh, and I was just being a dick to moki.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

I don't reconcile it -- I admit I'm human, fallible, etc., and that there's a dadgum good chance that I'd blow someone away if they hurt or killed someone I love if I had the opportunity.

It's called being honest.

Fair nuf. You're a sinner. Welcome to the club.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So this really isn't about respecting human life or any of that ******** — it's just about criticizing other countries based on your own personal feelings about them. (Well, either that or you're suggesting it's more acceptable to end a Chinese life than an American life. Because if it's the value of the life that causes it to be horrible, there's no reasonable way you could hold people to different standards.)

There are different standards because so many of the governments on the list of death penalty countries are dictatorships. Dictatorships = bad, abusive, power-hungry, torturing sonsofbitches. Liberal democracies = good, rule of law, individual rights, limited governments. Let's stop putting them in the same class and making comparisons, as so many of the defenses of bad US behavior do. It demeans us.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Fair nuf. You're a sinner. Welcome to the club.

No need to welcome me: knowing I'm a sinner is part of the deal, and I've known it for quite some time.

[BRussell]

Josh Marshall, a liberal blogger, has an interesting post about European vs. American differences on capital punishment. He argues that public opinion isn't as different as it's made out to be.

Capital punishment continued to enjoy majority support in France, for instance, long after it was abolished in 1981. Only in the late 1990s did a poll finally show that fewer than 50% of the population wanted it restored. As of the time I wrote, between 60% and 70% of Canadians said they wanted the death penalty reinstated.

So what does it all mean? I think it means that the end of capital punishment in Europe has much less to do with public opinion than we think. And it has more to do with the structure of European politics, particularly -- I would speculate -- the stronger role of parties, and thus elites, in the European form of parliamentary democracy.

Layered over that is the effect of EU expansion, in which the continent's central powers have made abolishing the death penalty a condition of membership. One more factor, I suspect, is that over time, opposition to capital punishment has become a form of European self-identification. And that has had a further depressing effect on support for capital punishment.

That final point is highly speculative, of course.

But the underlying point is well-grounded: Europeans aren't much less attached to capital punishment than Americans. The difference is that their governments don't as readily provide it.

[ghporter]

Simple: it's the law in California. The crimes didn't happen in Vienna or Paris, they happened in LA. Further, the "system" gave the condemned many opportunities to show that he had been unjustly convicted (all appeals were exhausted a long time ago). That left him with a request for clemency; no clemency for someone who shows no remorse for shotgunning someone in the face, shooting someone TWICE in the back with a shotgun, etc. I think that if Williams had said "what I did was horrible, and my concience troubles me every moment" and actually sounded convincing, he might have at least gotten a stay.

Insert very rude Peter Griffin quote about where people who don't live in California should kiss me.

[yakkiebah]

Let me restate: there is no outrage in Europe regarding the execution. It was hardly frontpage news.

Personally i'm against the death penalty however i couldn't care less about this case in particular.

He's gone, whatever, people have died for less.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by BRussell

There are different standards because so many of the governments on the list of death penalty countries are dictatorships. Dictatorships = bad, abusive, power-hungry, torturing sonsofbitches. Liberal democracies = good, rule of law, individual rights, limited governments. Let's stop putting them in the same class and making comparisons, as so many of the defenses of bad US behavior do. It demeans us.

It is not a defense of America's position. The point is that these people are disingenuous. They don't care about human lives. If they really cared about the victims of the death penalty, they'd be focusing on where it's hitting the most people the hardest. Instead, they're just using this as an opportunity to vent their distaste for America and try to make themselves feel superior.

And no, I don't hold other countries to a different standard. It is no more OK for a dictatorship to be evil than for any other country to be evil. Letting dictators off the hook like that is a terrible idea.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It is not a defense of America's position....

Very well said. I recall that many European countries had a lot of "cleaning up" to do about 60 years ago, and I also recall who paid for that work. Remember Mark Twain? He said "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. It is the principal difference between a dog and a man."

It's human nature to resent needing help, just as it's human nature (I think) to offer help. Go figure. But it's been 60 years, nobody's even asked for the majority of Lend-Lease debt to be paid, and just about all the people who made any decisions of import then are dead. I think they should get over it and stop having "distain" for America. Hell, we're a huge market-they can show their "superiority" by producing a product that EVERYBODY wants and will pay out the nose for.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It is not a defense of America's position. The point is that these people are disingenuous. They don't care about human lives. If they really cared about the victims of the death penalty, they'd be focusing on where it's hitting the most people the hardest. Instead, they're just using this as an opportunity to vent their distaste for America and try to make themselves feel superior.

Who are "these people"? Oh yeah... Europeans.

Thread title: Europeans outraged at Williams execution.

Yup. All of them.

Stupid thread. Stupid title. Stupid comments.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The point is that these people are disingenuous. They don't care about human lives.

Neither provable or disprovable.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If they really cared about the victims of the death penalty, they'd be focusing on where it's hitting the most people the hardest.

This doesn't address that our form of government makes it more likely to listen than the others. Is it not plausible they want to focus on where they feel they can have the most effect?

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Instead, they're just using this as an opportunity to vent their distaste for America and try to make themselves feel superior.

Sure. That's the point. Our stance on the death penalty is (one) reason for their distaste. It's basic human nature to think one's own stance is superior to others.

If I may respectfully ask, is not taking them to task for "feeling superior" a veiled assertion they are not recognizing your own superiority?

I'm of course not immune to this. I'm an American, and yes, I do ultimately consider our way of life (warts and all) to be superior to others.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

And no, I don't hold other countries to a different standard. It is no more OK for a dictatorship to be evil than for any other country to be evil. Letting dictators off the hook like that is a terrible idea.

Absolutely.

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by saab95

Why is someone who forcefully disrupts another's right to life worthy of respect?

It's so weird how the religious, who claim a lock on morality, seem to enable the criminal.

It's not as if anyone wanted him to be set free or anything. Prison is the place for punishment, murder shouldn't be.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

Who are "these people"? Oh yeah... Europeans.

Thread title: Europeans outraged at Williams execution.

Yup. All of them.

Not the thread title: All Europeans outraged at Williams execution

If I said "People die every day," would you reply, "Oh, really, ALL PEOPLE die every day?"

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It is not a defense of America's position. The point is that these people are disingenuous. They don't care about human lives. If they really cared about the victims of the death penalty, they'd be focusing on where it's hitting the most people the hardest. Instead, they're just using this as an opportunity to vent their distaste for America and try to make themselves feel superior.

And no, I don't hold other countries to a different standard. It is no more OK for a dictatorship to be evil than for any other country to be evil. Letting dictators off the hook like that is a terrible idea.

There are two myths here:

Myth 1. That Europeans are up in arms over this. Everyone knows that the US has the death penalty and the EU does not. Everyone has known it for quite some time. This is a non-issue to virtually everyone in Europe. More Americans have protested this than Europeans.

Myth 2. That Europeans criticize the US but not China. The EU regularly calls on China and other death penalty countries to abolish it, and all of the human rights groups like Amnesty are just as strong in Europe as anywhere in the world. Surely you're not suggesting they should give the US a pass on this just because China kills more and the US is "only" #2 or #3.

It seems to me that there's only one thing happening here: Some American demagogues are playing victim to the big bad Eurobullies being so mean to us wah wah wah.

[Cody Dawg]

He should have been left locked up and spreading his message.

What I find AMAZING is the amount of so-called "Christians" who are laughing and joking and justifying his death.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Not the thread title: All Europeans outraged at Williams execution

If I said "People die every day," would you reply, "Oh, really, ALL PEOPLE die every day?"

So where is the thread titled: "South Africans outraged at Williams execution"?

This is just more moki xenophobia and you're all playing along.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

He should have been left locked up and spreading his message.

What I find AMAZING is the amount of so-called "Christians" who are laughing and joking and justifying his death.

Maury's not in that group.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

He should have been left locked up and spreading his message.

What I find AMAZING is the amount of so-called "Christians" who are laughing and joking and justifying his death.

Care to explain your assertion that being Christian and being against the death penalty is synonymous?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

He should have been left locked up and spreading his message.

What I find AMAZING is the amount of so-called "Christians" who are laughing and joking and justifying his death.

First off, his "message" hasn't reduced the number of gangs or gang crime anywhere. Second, what about the message that when you do something, you have to suffer the consequences. It's called "being an adult," and the whole world seems to have a major problem with making people do that. I think it's a better lesson for Williams to have paid his debt. And if he'd even mentioned he was sorry about any of the four murders he committed, maybe that might have changed something.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by swrate

Same as BRussel, I find it strange to compare China ex-communist country to the US

Why are Europeans outraged? For some of the same reasons many Americans are, Cody for example.

In Austria, this would never have been allowed. Bianca, Toopac, & Cie, all opponents to death penalty failed, I am so sorry.

China ex-communist country? huh? When did China move over to free elections and freedom of speech?



The face of one of his victims. After seeing that you can tell me he's innocent? He should have been executed after his 3 failed appeals. But that's the way our legal system works. The media only showed the "good things" he's done since he's been in prison they forget to mention that he IS/WAS the co-founder of the Crips who have commited thousands of murders and also that he failed appeals many times already. They also fail to show you the picture of his victims because it might cause anger or something.

There aren't as many violent crimes in many countries because they know there is a penatly of death or a severe punishment. Nothing of that sort exists in Europe or the US.

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by ghporter

It's called "being an adult".

Let me get this straight. the government can't teach a kid to use a condom because it condones sex outside of marriage. But it can condone murder by executing people.

Any reasonable human being knows that the government ought not condone killing people. If they are a danger they ought to take them off the street and put them away for life.

Hell I wouldn't mind if you put them in solitary for life. But first we have the conservative "Christian" right condoning torture and now you're condoning murder..because thats what it is...justified murder.

Its so abundantly clear to any reasonable observer that you guys have a lot more in common with Islamic Fundamentalists then you'd care to admit.....two peas in a pod...

[teknopimp]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

...What I find AMAZING is the amount of so-called "Christians" who are laughing and joking and justifying his death.

so, what is the difference between them and you? what qualifies you?

seriously, please.