[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I -- for my part -- have been in the US while the Clinton scandal unravelled. Spent a year there. So I know the difference. I have seen the lack of knowledge about Europe (and in particular Germany). It's not like we are living in a Banana Republic, Germany is the third largest economy in the world. And these kids at high school virtually knew nothing.

Actually, I have a broadish question, which with your experience you might be able to answer. I did high school in the UK. I went to a comprehensive, which isn't necessarily good. Most of the kids left school at 16. Only the academics stayed past that and then we passed on to Sixth Form, which I suppose is somewhat like a German Gymnasium.

Getting rid of the unacademic 90%, of course, made all the difference. The classes in Sixth Form were very different, and much more advanced. I've commented before on the history class of English 15 year-olds who didn't realize that Canada and Mexico share North American continent with the US. That wouldn't have happened with the A' Level students. Presumably, you might see the same kind of thing if you compared a Hochschule with a Gymnasium, right?

My impression (not having attended myself) is that US high school is much less strictly streamed than either the German or the UK systems. Certainly, US kids are expected to stay in high school to 18, regardless of academic ability or willingness to learn. Perhaps that might have something to do with your experience? I'm thinking it is possible that if you interviewed a group of 16 year old German apprentices, they might not have the most sophisticated view of the world either. And also I'm thinking that they may be numerically the better comparative group.

The other difference I have noticed is that US high schools seems to have a generally broader, but shallower curriculum. Certainly, what I learned in A' Levels is far and away more advanced than what would be taught in a US high school. But A' Level students only take a handful of subjects (in my day at least, typically 3). American kids seem to get a broader education, and then specialize in college. And since US college is 4 years, not 3, the difference by the end is gone.

Anyway, these are just thoughts. I haven't had your comparative experience of secondary school education to draw on.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
well, its right ONLY if one desires to only discuss things with people that already know the same things....then its not a discussion but a parroting of the exact same knowledge base.

however, if the purpose of discussion is to foster better understanding of that which some do not yet understand, then its wrong to say only those who have the exact same knowledge set as you are worth arguing with.

depends on your goal.

You're right of course. I was being flippant there.

[mac-at-kearsarge]

Originally posted by Atef's Carcase:
I am Muhammed Atef. I was killed by the Great Satan for my crimes against humanity, and Allah sent me to Hell. But I was released from Hell, and sent back to earth with a mission: to fight against the propaganda and lies of the pacifist and appeasers, and to fight for truth and justice here at MacNN. I have seen the error of my ways, and know now the way things should be.

Through enlightening you infidels, I may yet redeem my accurs�d soul, and save yours as well.

Atef, with all due respect, may I ask that you please re-answer my question, but this time please don't do so in metaphore's?

The use of metaphore's is good, and I (Think I) understand what your saying, however, I'm using this thread as an exercise to learn about the persepctive of other persons. To be fair, I seriously would like to know about who you really are, as your perspective of current things intrigues me. Failure to do so can only lead me to two conclusion:

1. You feel that you have something to hide. This is perfectly fine and exceptable, all I ask is that you come out and say so.

or

2. I don't want to sound mean, but otherwise you're just someone who likes to be silly and make rants about various subjects, in which case the statements you make loose any and all value and meaning.

[Atef's Carcase]

Originally posted by mac-at-kearsarge:
Atef, with all due respect, may I ask that you please re-answer my question, but this time please don't do so in metaphore's?

With all due respect, what I posted was my 'mission statement' here on the boards in this persona. If you peel away that statement's bravado and high-flying style, you will find this: to fight against the propaganda and lies of the pacifists and appeasers, and to fight for truth here at MacNN. Some may lable me conservative, right-wing, or a lackey of the Great Satan, but if they (and you) will look closer, you will find that I am none of those. Rather, I fight all who distort and lie. I will not stand by while the morons and propagandists run amok, spouting their filth to the detriment of clear-thinking persons.

I have little time left on these boards--a month at best. Greater deeds and responsibilities will soon recall me to the real world, and I will leave you for months uncounted. Time will tell, and when I have greater liberties from my duties, I may yet return in a different guise. Look for me at dawn on a Saturday in the eighth month of your infidel year.

[mac-at-kearsarge]

Originally posted by Atef's Carcase:
With all due respect, what I posted was my 'mission statement' here on the boards in this persona. If you peel away that statement's bravado and high-flying style, you will find this: to fight against the propaganda and lies of the pacifists and appeasers, and to fight for truth here at MacNN. Some may lable me conservative, right-wing, or a lackey of the Great Satan, but if they (and you) will look closer, you will find that I am none of those. Rather, I fight all who distort and lie. I will not stand by while the morons and propagandists run amok, spouting their filth to the detriment of clear-thinking persons.

I have little time left on these boards--a month at best. Greater deeds and responsibilities will soon recall me to the real world, and I will leave you for months uncounted. Time will tell, and when I have greater liberties from my duties, I may yet return in a different guise. Look for me at dawn on a Saturday in the eighth month of your infidel year.

I couldn't help but notice that you use the word infidel many times in your posts. If my understanding of your use of the word is correct, then you use it in the defintion of "someone who does not acknowedge the same God as you do". Is this a correct assumption?

Also, what do you actually mean when you refer to the "great Satan"? Are you talking about the US and/or the US goverment, Western civilization as a whole, os is it something entierly else?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by mac-at-kearsarge:
I couldn't help but notice that you use the word infidel many times in your posts. If my understanding of your use of the word is correct, then you use it in the defintion of "someone who does not acknowedge the same God as you do". Is this a correct assumption?

Also, what do you actually mean when you refer to the "great Satan"? Are you talking about the US and/or the US goverment, Western civilization as a whole, os is it something entierly else?

I think you're taking his online persona, meant tongue-in-cheek, a little bit too literally. IMHO.

[Atef's Carcase]

Originally posted by mac-at-kearsarge:
the word infidel

It's just a satire of Muslim extremists; I think that kind of extremism is idiotic, and it's stupid (and dangerous) to preach the kind of hate and violence that the militant Muslims do (or anyone else for that matter). Using 'infidel' is a way to satirise that.

Also, what do you actually mean when you refer to the "great Satan"? Are you talking about the US and/or the US goverment, Western civilization as a whole, os is it something entierly else?

The Great Satan is the United States of America. The ayatollahs of Iran routinely refer to the USA as the 'Great Satan', and Saddam has referenced the USA as Satan or a satan in the recent past.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
The only person I've ever complained about was Zimphire when he was posting what I saw as a racist comment.

The words in bold are the key. I guarantee whatever I said that "offended" you, was in no way racist.

Have you lived outside the US for a longer period? Do you have friends from other countries that you meet on a regular basis? If yes, how many (countries/people, doesn't matter)?

I have *PLENTY* of friends I talk to daily in the net. In the past 12 years I have been on the net, they have came and went.

Specifically, have you lived in Europe long enough to really know what's going on?

Not that i Have to live in Europe to know what they think about the US, What is your point?

I -- for my part -- have been in the US while the Clinton scandal unravelled. Spent a year there. So I know the difference. I have seen the lack of knowledge about Europe (and in particular Germany). It's not like we are living in a Banana Republic, Germany is the third largest economy in the world. And these kids at high school virtually knew nothing.

Just like any other country knows about the US. Most of the people I talked to from Europe think we all have 90210 lives with straight teeth and nice cars. Do I make fun of these people, or belittle them because they have no clue about the US? of course not. T

So I am saying all this due to own experience. Yes, there are some Americans that have quite a good idea, what's happening (Simey), but with sometimes a bit of a different opinion. But with someone that doesn't even have a clue about the other side, it's not worth arguing.

Well it's a good thing I am not one of the people that has no clue.

I do find it amusing that your trying to tell me what I know, and what I don't though.

[mikithecrackhead]

This thread is getting boring could we go back to name calling and taunts?

[mac-at-kearsarge]

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
This thread is getting boring could we go back to name calling and taunts?

I'd prefer we didn't. I'm glad to see the everyone calmed down, and I'm hoping people are still reading it, so that we may all educate each other, if you will.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
totally as a tangent...I think its difficult to expect someone who's worth arguing with to have been living in the country or area of topic for extended periods of time. Not everyone everyone is blessed with that level of opportunity or financial wherewithal.
And, even if someone were to live in a foreign country for x amount of time, there is no guarantee their arguments would be of any greater or lesser import.
For example, I don't know enough German to really get by, but I attended a conference in Darmstadt for two days. The only people I could effectively interact with were those whose english was better than my nonexistent german (not hard at all) or who were kind enough to be patient with me. My point is that is already a skewed group of people that I interacted with. From this, I had a generally upbeat experience of germans kind and interested in the US....but you see, those would be the people that I'd run into, mostly. That doesn't mean that they represented all of Germany or its views.
I think foreign visitors do not get an accurate view of America, or vice versa because the very fact of their foreign stature means several unnatural things will occur:
1. people will treat them better (or worse) than they treat their countrymen, because they're visiting.
2. topics of conversation will dip unnaturally into what is perceived as common interest, even though a native might not normally discuss such things
3. A native might discuss things in terms of what they perceive will make the visitor the most comfortable/uncomfortable.
4. A visitor/native will use their own frame of reference to understand the foreign culture. Often this is misleading or distorting.
5. a visitor might be more commonly sought out by natives who either have an unnatural interest in their homeland, an unnatural interest in arguing about their homeland, an unnatural interest in anything foreign from a point of ignorance.....you get the idea.

Well, although your experience is different, depending on your surroundings, the lack of interest seems to be a feature of most Americans. There was a study of the National Geographic Society that found that there is a lack of knowledge (in this case geographical knowledge) not only of international geography, but also national geography.

Even the average and below-average people (usually) spend their vacation abroad (e. g. Turkey, Spain, Egypt, Dominicans, etc.). That is missing in America. My hostmom was an exception, because she's been all over the Carribeans.

Even though if your interest of foreign countries is limited to the beach and site seeing, it still is an interest.
In America, most of what I have heard of was ?let's go to the [insert US state here] shore'.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
...

I have *PLENTY* of friends I talk to daily in the net. In the past 12 years I have been on the net, they have came and went.
[/b] Not that i Have to live in Europe to know what they think about the US, What is your point?
[/B]

I was thinking about people that you meet (in person), do stuff together, have a drink or two, go on parties, see movies and stuff.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Actually, I have a broadish question, which with your experience you might be able to answer. I did high school in the UK. I went to a comprehensive, which isn't necessarily good. Most of the kids left school at 16. Only the academics stayed past that and then we passed on to Sixth Form, which I suppose is somewhat like a German Gymnasium.

Getting rid of the unacademic 90%, of course, made all the difference. The classes in Sixth Form were very different, and much more advanced. I've commented before on the history class of English 15 year-olds who didn't realize that Canada and Mexico share North American continent with the US. That wouldn't have happened with the A' Level students. Presumably, you might see the same kind of thing if you compared a Hochschule with a Gymnasium, right?

My impression (not having attended myself) is that US high school is much less strictly streamed than either the German or the UK systems. Certainly, US kids are expected to stay in high school to 18, regardless of academic ability or willingness to learn. Perhaps that might have something to do with your experience? I'm thinking it is possible that if you interviewed a group of 16 year old German apprentices, they might not have the most sophisticated view of the world either. And also I'm thinking that they may be numerically the better comparative group.

The other difference I have noticed is that US high schools seems to have a generally broader, but shallower curriculum. Certainly, what I learned in A' Levels is far and away more advanced than what would be taught in a US high school. But A' Level students only take a handful of subjects (in my day at least, typically 3). American kids seem to get a broader education, and then specialize in college. And since US college is 4 years, not 3, the difference by the end is gone.

Anyway, these are just thoughts. I haven't had your comparative experience of secondary school education to draw on.

For the basic part you are right. European school systems (at least France, Germany, UK, Italy as well as the Netherlands) sooner or later offer several choices depending on the abilities and personal goals of the students. In Germany, there are usually three kinds of schools (usually, because our states (Bundesl�nder) are in charge of their school system): Hauptschule (lowest level), Realschule (intermediate level), Gymnasium (university level). After Realschule, you are able to take two more years of classes in a Fachhochschule (college leven, Fachhochschulreife).

After a Hauptschule or Realschule, you could apply for an apprentice ship which means that you get additional education for three years (could be shortened to two years if you are good enough). There, for half of the time, you work, the other half you go to school (Berufsschule). There, you basically learn some stuff that is offered at US High Schools (wood work, etc.). You can go in much more detail in three years plus you get working experience.

I went to the Gymnasium and that is a different thing. It is designed to prepare the students for university and college, i. e. an academic degree. So it is much more theoretical than the other two branches. In my High School, even the high-level subjects (AP courses) are ?practical' ones, ones that teach the technique. It wasn't very hard to get good grades there, if you refine your technique (e. g. I took AP Calculus and could integrate all kinds of things swiftly, but lacked the background knowledge). Back in Germany, I had to relearn the mathematical ways of thinking, but could do the ?don't-think-just-do' calculations really quickly.

From what I have heard, the first two years of college are supposed to be like the last two years of Gymnasium (the wife of my host brother told me so, she went to Germany as an exchange student). You get a ?broad education' in detail at a Gymnasium, meaning that after finishing Gymnasium, you should be able to study what you want (history, geography, physics, politics, whatever). (After the Fachhochschule, you are allowed to study within a certain range of subjects that the Fachhochschule was specialized in such as business.)

But the different approach is also seen in the text books -- American text books (on math and physics at least) that are intended for students do look quite differently than German text books. Except for good US textbooks (e. g. Jackson on electrodynamics), most American text books are far easier -- I find them too easy for university level (e. g. Tipler).

All of our schools (including university) have a fixed schedule, but allows more freedoms the older you are. (One very good thing at high schools is that they focused much more on personal effort and good grades really paid off (scholar ships) -- if they would let me have had my grades on the last report card, I surely would have stayed in America, enjoying a scholar ship for a university).

As for the other point, I have already posted a comment as a response to someone else. Look at the vacation example.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Well, although your experience is different, depending on your surroundings, the lack of interest seems to be a feature of most Americans. There was a study of the National Geographic Society that found that there is a lack of knowledge (in this case geographical knowledge) not only of international geography, but also national geography.

Even the average and below-average people (usually) spend their vacation abroad (e. g. Turkey, Spain, Egypt, Dominicans, etc.). That is missing in America. My hostmom was an exception, because she's been all over the Carribeans.

Even though if your interest of foreign countries is limited to the beach and site seeing, it still is an interest.
In America, most of what I have heard of was ?let's go to the [insert US state here] shore'.

I'm always a little suspicious of polls funded by groups who are obviously self-interested in a certain result. It's true that Americans generally comment that we are bad at geography. On the other hand, the National Geographic Society have a big-time interest in quantifying that inadequacy. It's a great way to sell Nat. Geo. subscriptions to parents.

Obviously, where you are plays a role in this. The US is a continental-sized country. People don't feel the same need to jump in an airplane to seek the sun and a beach since both exist right here. I'm really not sure your comparison with European sun worshippers makes any sense. Obviously a northern European beach-goer is going on an international vacation. But that's just a function of where the beach is. If there were equal beaches at home, and they were cheaper, I suspect most would stay at home.

Have you ever been to the Costa Del Sol? I spent an amazed couple of weeks there. Sure, the people who travelled there technically went abroad on vacation. But they weren't tourists in the classic sense. They had zero idea where they were except that it was hot, had a beach and a bar. That's it! I didn't get any sense that there was any kind of exchange of cultures going on.

There's an old English joke about a competition prize in an English newspaper. First prize, a week in Benidorm. Second prize, two weeks in Benidorm.

Of course, another difference between US travellers and Europeans is that Europeans generally have far more vacation time. Americans, by and large, get roughly half the paid vacation that most Europeans get. Most people I know can't go away for extended vacations easily because much of their annual leave gets used up during the year for other things - getting the car registered, taking the kids ot the dentist, and so on. So people tend to take small getaways for long weekends. When you are only going for 3 days, you don't really want to sit in an airplane for 18 hours of it roundtrip, and then have to deal with jetlag on top of the travel time. So again, it's easier to just jet over to Colorado or Florida rather than the Swiss Alps or the Dalmatian coast. Of course, it could be lack of interest in other places. But I think it is more (or as least as much) a matter of other pressures on people's lives.

Anyway, thanks for the education observations. Sorry I got my Hochs and Haupts mixed up.

[MPC]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Well, although your experience is different, depending on your surroundings, the lack of interest seems to be a feature of most Americans. There was a study of the National Geographic Society that found that there is a lack of knowledge (in this case geographical knowledge) not only of international geography, but also national geography.

Even the average and below-average people (usually) spend their vacation abroad (e. g. Turkey, Spain, Egypt, Dominicans, etc.). That is missing in America. My hostmom was an exception, because she's been all over the Carribeans.

Even though if your interest of foreign countries is limited to the beach and site seeing, it still is an interest.
In America, most of what I have heard of was ?let's go to the [insert US state here] shore'.

I saved up for 16 months at my minimum wage job ($6.50 per/hour) for a month long trip to Europe. I'm from Oregon. I went to 11 countries in 30 days and enjoyed every minute of it. And not once did I go to the beach. I live 30 minutes from from the beach, why would I vacation there? Oh, and I live 30 minutes from snowboarding, and an hour from the high desert.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by MPC:
I saved up for 16 months at my minimum wage job ($6.50 per/hour) for a month long trip to Europe. I'm from Oregon. I went to 11 countries in 30 days and enjoyed every minute of it. And not once did I go to the beach. I live 30 minutes from from the beach, why would I vacation there? Oh, and I live 30 minutes from snowboarding, and an hour from the high desert.

Well, I spent my year on the East Coast, (Pennsylvania), so they used to go to the shore. A classmate of mine went to Colorade, I am sure he'd have used different quotes here.

Glad that you enjoyed your trip to Europe. Actually did the same thing -- worked for little, saved it up to visit my host mom again.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by MPC:
I went to 11 countries in 30 days and enjoyed every minute of it.

I can't help but smile about your statement - it's so stereotypical, it's not true.

I'm sure that you personally do not fall into this group, but this is exactly the kind of "traveling" that appears to be enthusiastically practiced by a certain sub-set of USA-sians. Every summer we have endless busloads of US tourists arriving from Heathrow, "doing" London in a day or two.
Then they move on to another town, another country for another day or two.
Then they go home, secure in the knowledge of just having experienced Europe. Few ever leave the confines of the group, fewer make an attempt to understand the culture of their host country.
We had a fantastic documentary about this phenomena on the BBC about three years ago, and nothing you can make up came even close to reality. People bringing their own food for two weeks (I kid you not) because they had been told that there was still rationing in the UK, people bringing torches because they "didn't trust the electricity". People being disappointed of Stonehenge because "it looked much better in tat movie", the list went on. And on. And then some.

Like Simey said, there are of course millions of Europeans, and especially Brits, who do exactly the same thing. Benidorm is indeed my own personal idea of hell. Package tourist will never be the most adventurous travelers, wherever they might originate and ignorance is certainly not restricted to anyone nationality.

[MPC]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
I can't help but smile about your statement - it's so stereotypical, it's not true.

I'm sure that you personally do not fall into this group, but this is exactly the kind of "traveling" that appears to be enthusiastically practiced by a certain sub-set of USA-sians. Every summer we have endless busloads of US tourists arriving from Heathrow, "doing" London in a day or two.
Then they move on to another town, another country for another day or two.
Then they go home, secure in the knowledge of just having experienced Europe. Few ever leave the confines of the group, fewer make an attempt to understand the culture of their host country.
We had a fantastic documentary about this phenomena on the BBC about three years ago, and nothing you can make up came even close to reality. People bringing their own food for two weeks (I kid you not) because they had been told that there was still rationing in the UK, people bringing torches because they "didn't trust the electricity". People being disappointed of Stonehenge because "it looked much better in tat movie", the list went on. And on. And then some.

Like Simey said, there are of course millions of Europeans, and especially Brits, who do exactly the same thing. Benidorm is indeed my own personal idea of hell. Package tourist will never be the most adventurous travelers, wherever they might originate and ignorance is certainly not restricted to anyone nationality.

Actually, I was alone. Luaghing at nerds in Venice with the big Doctor Suess hats. You might dislike my kind, but I learned a valuable lesson. Next time I stay in one place for weeks, not hours. You ever see the movie colors? Something about the bull walking down the hill and ****ing them all. Instead of running and only doing one.

[MPC]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
I can't help but smile about your statement - it's so stereotypical, it's not true.

What about my statement is false? I'm sure I'm missing something simple.

[MPC]

Originally posted by MPC:
Actually, I was alone. Luaghing at nerds in Venice with the big Doctor Suess hats. You might dislike my kind, but I learned a valuable lesson. Next time I stay in one place for weeks, not hours. You ever see the movie colors? Something about the bull walking down the hill and ****ing them all. Instead of running and only doing one.

[edit: I went in march, cheap ho' tels]

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I was thinking about people that you meet (in person), do stuff together, have a drink or two, go on parties, see movies and stuff.

And again, this has nothing to do with anything. You are arguing irrelevant arguments.

I can talk to somone on the internet for years and understand how he or she feels about something. I need not meet them in person.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Well, although your experience is different, depending on your surroundings, the lack of interest seems to be a feature of most Americans. There was a study of the National Geographic Society that found that there is a lack of knowledge (in this case geographical knowledge) not only of international geography, but also national geography.

Even the average and below-average people (usually) spend their vacation abroad (e. g. Turkey, Spain, Egypt, Dominicans, etc.). That is missing in America. My hostmom was an exception, because she's been all over the Carribeans.

Even though if your interest of foreign countries is limited to the beach and site seeing, it still is an interest.
In America, most of what I have heard of was ?let's go to the [insert US state here] shore'.

Well, at least you've proven that all europeans are inescapably prone to sweeping generalizations.
(/sarcasm)

The national geographic study was discussed and debunked here a while back, and we've also discussed that for you to visit Spain is easier than it is for us to visit Spain. Of course, with your superior european knowledge of geography, you already realized that.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Well, I spent my year on the East Coast, (Pennsylvania), so they used to go to the shore. A classmate of mine went to Colorade, I am sure he'd have used different quotes here.

Glad that you enjoyed your trip to Europe. Actually did the same thing -- worked for little, saved it up to visit my host mom again.

and visiting Pennsylvania told you exactly what the diverse american experience is in the other 50 states?

Ok, let me tell YOU something about geography, american geography. Its a vast country, and is highly regionalized. I've visited or lived in nearly every state, and I can tell you the each region has its cultural differences in one way or another. but of course, you know that already because you're an expert in cultural geography.....

You're committing the exact sin you accuse americans of, here....of making snap judgements based on ignorance of the native culture.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by Atef's Carcase:
: ...to fight against the propaganda and lies of the pacifists and appeasers, and to fight for truth here at MacNN. Some may lable me conservative, right-wing, or a lackey of the Great Satan, but if they (and you) will look closer, you will find that I am none of those. Rather, I fight all who distort and lie. I will not stand by while the morons and propagandists run amok, spouting their filth to the detriment of clear-thinking persons.

You seem to say the word "pacifist" with a sneer. As if it is a negative thing. Why is that? IS pacifism a negative thing, in your view? Is pacifism the badge of the non "clear thiking" individual? How is it you determine what is a lie or propaganda? What is your criteria?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by maxelson:
You seem to say the word "pacifist" with a sneer. As if it is a negative thing. Why is that? IS pacifism a negative thing, in your view? Is pacifism the badge of the non "clear thiking" individual? How is it you determine what is a lie or propaganda? What is your criteria?

his own criteria, of course.



As I've said before, I prefer almost any solution tried first before the military one....once you start down that road (and we have) the available options keep becoming more and more narrow and more and more military and further an further away from diplomacy until eventually you end up at: "Peace? you can't get there from here".

[maxelson]

'moring Lerk, my friend.
I'll hold off on my opinion of pacifism until I hear an answer or two on my questions. Well, that and a couple more slugs of java.

As for Lerk's post on regionalization: I cannot begin to relate how correct this is. We can start on a VERY broad level: East Coast, Left Coast, Mid. All of these have VERY distinct cultural peculiarities. We can then break down from there (we'll take the east because I am most familiar with that region): New England, New York (which is truly its own subset), Middle Atlantic, Southern, Deep Southern, Florida (again, its own, IMO). Break it further (this time, New England) into individual states, which truly DO have their own subsets. We can, IMO, further identify microcosmic distinctions right down to neighborhoods in Boston- hell, almost down to blocks- each with their own traditions- even regionalisms as to language and accent (Boston accents are as many and varied as London accents). We have not even tackled rural/ suburban/ urban cultures.
Takes a lot of time to understand and appreciate these. America is a big place, with lots of folks. I don't think a lifetime of experience can truly cover it all or even most of it. Can anyone REALLY define the American experience with accuracy?

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by maxelson:
Takes a lot of time to understand and appreciate these. America is a big place, with lots of folks. I don't think a lifetime of experience can truly cover it all or even most of it. Can anyone REALLY define the American experience with accuracy?

yes, exactly. And I have done more than just visit different places, I've lived in for at least a year and sometimes 4-5 years the following places:

Seattle, St. Louis, New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Tucson, Middletown New York, Chicago, Dayton Ohio....and I can assuredly tell you each one is culturally different from the other, none the same.

I think its a great disservice to visit only one place in america and then assume one understands the whole mosaic...simply aint true.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
and visiting Pennsylvania told you exactly what the diverse american experience is in the other 50 states?

Ok, let me tell YOU something about geography, american geography. Its a vast country, and is highly regionalized. I've visited or lived in nearly every state, and I can tell you the each region has its cultural differences in one way or another. but of course, you know that already because you're an expert in cultural geography.....

You're committing the exact sin you accuse americans of, here....of making snap judgements based on ignorance of the native culture.

On the other hand, Lerk, I don't think that Oreo is entirely wrong. When I was stationed in Europe, I was amazed (and irritated) how uninterested most of my collegues were in travelling and seeing the sights. These were a good cross-section of Americans. Some were from cities, some were from rural areas. Some were middle class, some were working class. Some were officers with college degrees and others just had high school educations. They had time and money and they were living in the heart of Europe for 2-3 years. And yet an awful lot had no interest in seeing much more than a quick jaunt to Heidelberg and a trip to Eurodisney.

My difference with Oreo is that I don't think that is unique. I've seen the same behavior among Europeans. Most European vacationers head to sun spots. And anyone who has been to one of those international sun spots knows, they all look much the same. It doesn't matter whether they go to the Italian Lido, the Costa Del Sol, Cancun, or Florida. It's all much the same.

I personally tend to loathe those kinds of places. I'd rather putter around Florence than sit on a beach. And I'm not alone. Everywhere I went in Europe I always ran into backpackers and tourists from all over the world. Many of them were Americans, and many were not.

Stereotypes are fun, and they usually do have a basis in reality. I have also run into the busload of loud-shorts-wearing American pensioners making their pilgramage to Europe and trying to fit it all in on a single trip. I like talking to them as well. It's interesting how often you find out that a good proportion of them have been to Europe before. It's just that the last time they were there was in 1944 - 45. They can talk about a side of Europe that many younger Europeans never experienced. Rather than looking down on them, those younger Europeans would do better to listen and learn from them.

I've also run into German tourists that live up to their stereotypes. In 1986 I cycled the Romantic Road from Wuerzburg to Fuessen, staying in campsites. Germans have the reputation of enjoying nature, but also of taming it wherever they go. I will never forget the sight of a German man out camping, mowing the grass in front of his enormous collapsable camper van.

The point is, or course, to take these stereotypes, enjoy them, and understand that they don't represent everybody. The other point is to remember that the "I'm a proper traveller, and these tourists aren't" pose is also a stereotype (which I am now living up to!).

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:


I will never forget the sight of a German man out camping, mowing the grass in front of his enormous collapsable camper van.

You mean - you didn't?

[gadster]

There are many, many positive things that have come out of the US. I believe that the vast majority of US citizens (and, indeed, all people around the world) are fundamentally 'good'.

We spend so much time arguing about our differences that often we fail to see the things we all have in common. We all want to be loved and appreciated. We all want to belong. We all want to contribute to our society in a meaningful way. We are social animals.

But sometime our leaders can let us down. For them, there is always the temptation to use the wedge strategy. Divide and conquer. Set one group of people against another. Play the race card. Demonise immigrants. Create an enemy. Has anyone read 1984?

George Bush has surrounded himself with a very dubious cast of characters. Personally, I reckon he feels a bit out of his depth as President. His administration has all the power (because they know young George will go with whatever they say) but none of the responsibilty.

War will come to the Middle East, because it is too expensive to stop it. That is a shocker. Any Gulf War vets here? Was it worth it? Kuwait was angle drilling into Iraq's southern oil fields, so Iraq took the military solution.

How is Gulf War 2 going to look to the people of the Middle East? Do you think they will all go "Hooray Washington, thank you for killing my children, at last Saddam has gone?" Or maybe they will be on the next plane to the US (First Class) intending to exact revenge? I know what I would do if it was me.

[Spliffdaddy]

geez, stop already with the Bush bashing.

Do you have any idea how tiresome that gets?

I'm starting to like the guy because everyone keeps telling me NOT to.

[gadster]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
geez, stop already with the Bush bashing.

Do you have any idea how tiresome that gets?

I'm starting to like the guy because everyone keeps telling me NOT to.

He isn't just getting bashed at random. There are no partisan politics at play here.

You may want to consider why he is so unpopular worldwide.

Its an international thing,
you wouldn't understand.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by gadster:
Any Gulf War vets here? Was it worth it? Kuwait was angle drilling into Iraq's southern oil fields, so Iraq took the military solution.

I'm not a Gulf War vet, although I was serving in the Army at the time, and I served with Gulf War vets later on.

Still, I'm going to comment. In my opinion, the Gulf War was worth it. If the international community hadn't responded to the invasion of Kuwait two things would have happened. First, Iraq would essentially rule the Middle East. They had the largest and most powerful army in the region at that time. To that would have been added Kuwait's oil supply. Not only would that have given him enormous resources, but he would also have had a stranglehold on the price of oil.

Second, the political message would have been sent that in the post Cold War era, it is acceptable to acquire territory by conquest. The result would certainly have been more war.

As it was, the Gulf War lead to enhanced prestige for the United Nations and the rule of international law in general. FOr the first time since it was founded, what the Security Council said meant something. The Gulf War was collective security working in exactly the way the founders of the United Nations intended it to work. If a member state gets invaded, the world is supposed to rally to its defense, by military means if necessary.

The fact that interational law worked for once had a knock-on effect, particularly in places like the Balkans. It also lead directly to the peace process between the Arabs and Israelis. Although in the long run, that hasn't resolved the Israeli/Palestinian standoff, it did result in a peace treaty between Jordan and Israel. The odds of a generalized Arab-Isreali war such as 1967 or 1973 repeating itself are much lower as a result.

So yes, it was worth it.

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
[BOk, let me tell YOU something about geography, american geography. Its a vast country, and is highly regionalized. I've visited or lived in nearly every state, and I can tell you the each region has its cultural differences in one way or another. [/B]

i don't know lerk, you got kansas, nebraska and iowa... not a lot of difference between them...

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
and visiting Pennsylvania told you exactly what the diverse american experience is in the other 50 states?

Ok, let me tell YOU something about geography, american geography. Its a vast country, and is highly regionalized. I've visited or lived in nearly every state, and I can tell you the each region has its cultural differences in one way or another. but of course, you know that already because you're an expert in cultural geography.....

You're committing the exact sin you accuse americans of, here....of making snap judgements based on ignorance of the native culture.

I've been to eight different states while I was there including Kansas and Oklahoma, West Virginia, Delaware, and some others.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
On the other hand, Lerk, I don't think that Oreo is entirely wrong. When I was stationed in Europe, I was amazed (and irritated) how uninterested most of my collegues were in travelling and seeing the sights. These were a good cross-section of Americans. Some were from cities, some were from rural areas. Some were middle class, some were working class. Some were officers with college degrees and others just had high school educations. They had time and money and they were living in the heart of Europe for 2-3 years. And yet an awful lot had no interest in seeing much more than a quick jaunt to Heidelberg and a trip to Eurodisney.

My difference with Oreo is that I don't think that is unique. I've seen the same behavior among Europeans. Most European vacationers head to sun spots. And anyone who has been to one of those international sun spots knows, they all look much the same. It doesn't matter whether they go to the Italian Lido, the Costa Del Sol, Cancun, or Florida. It's all much the same.

I personally tend to loathe those kinds of places. I'd rather putter around Florence than sit on a beach. And I'm not alone. Everywhere I went in Europe I always ran into backpackers and tourists from all over the world. Many of them were Americans, and many were not.

Stereotypes are fun, and they usually do have a basis in reality. I have also run into the busload of loud-shorts-wearing American pensioners making their pilgramage to Europe and trying to fit it all in on a single trip. I like talking to them as well. It's interesting how often you find out that a good proportion of them have been to Europe before. It's just that the last time they were there was in 1944 - 45. They can talk about a side of Europe that many younger Europeans never experienced. Rather than looking down on them, those younger Europeans would do better to listen and learn from them.

I've also run into German tourists that live up to their stereotypes. In 1986 I cycled the Romantic Road from Wuerzburg to Fuessen, staying in campsites. Germans have the reputation of enjoying nature, but also of taming it wherever they go. I will never forget the sight of a German man out camping, mowing the grass in front of his enormous collapsable camper van.

The point is, or course, to take these stereotypes, enjoy them, and understand that they don't represent everybody. The other point is to remember that the "I'm a proper traveller, and these tourists aren't" pose is also a stereotype (which I am now living up to!).

Oh my god, mowing the grass

Back to the point: I hate doing nothing at the beach for the whole day, I can't do it for more than three hours. I go hiking, take pictures and stuff. (And I've been to Florence three or four times ...)

But I agree -- some stereotypes aren't far fetched. Still, judge everyone on a personal basis. Otherwise Simey would know nothing about Europe while I would be mowing the grass in front of my tent on the camping ground

Some more about geography: although we do have an advantage in terms of diversity of languages around here, travelling is not the only thing. Roughly knowing what happens around you is another thing. E. g. while I was in the US I haven't met an American that wanted to be an exchange student or spend some longer time abroad (except for one girl that was from India and immigrated into the US who still flies there each year).

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
E. g. while I was in the US I haven't met an American that wanted to be an exchange student or spend some longer time abroad (except for one girl that was from India and immigrated into the US who still flies there each year).

Figures I have seen indicate that about 130,000 American undergraduates annually study abroad. That doesn't count high school exchanges, independent travel, or graduate students. It also doesn't count the roughly 100,000 Americans stationed in Europe, and the slightly smaller number stationed in Asia, many of whom jump hoops in order to be stationed overseas. Nor does it cover very popular programs like the Peace Corps.

My experience is that most US students would love to study abroad, but for many there are financial hurdles to overcome that make it unaffordable. It's very common for American students to finance their own educations, including living expenses. That's true in every university, but especially so in the larger state universities, which most Americans go to. In order to attend college, many, if not most, students work during the semester and again during the holidays. That makes study abroad a luxury they can't afford, and it is rather unfair of you to judge them for it.

One of the things about travel is it is supposed to open our eyes to the realities of other countries so we don't judge everyone by our own yardsticks. (Hint, hint ).

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I was thinking about people that you meet (in person), do stuff together, have a drink or two, go on parties, see movies and stuff.

Er not that it matters.


They can relay their opinions over the internet JUST as well.

And they do.