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calumr · Oct 4, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by BadaBing!:
i am a student adc member, is it true i get a free version of panther in my developer mailing?

AFAIK, yes. I got Jaguar last year.

mikebat · Oct 4, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by BadaBing!:
i am a student adc member, is it true i get a free version of panther in my developer mailing?

You should, all previous final Mac OS X versions have been in the mailings about one month after release

Macnor · 05:24 PM

It looks like I won�t buy Panther. Apple still has not fixed the issue with my geforce 4 32mb card. So Panther is useless for me. I can understand that there will still be bugs in the released version, but this is a big bug that apple should have fixed before releasing it. If I move a window around the screen gets messed up and if I try to change the resolution the screen goes black and I have to restart. Panther works better without the geforce drivers!!!

Too bad, I have to wait to see if apple will fix this bug before spending 129 dollars. Maybe they just won�t support retail nivida cards like I paid 75 dollars for.

i am yujin · Oct 4, 2003, 05:21 PM

So if I install this version of Panther (7b85), I would have to make a brand new reformat to install the retail?

Immortal K-Mart Employee · Oct 4, 2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by i am yujin:
So if I install this version of Panther (7b85), I would have to make a brand new reformat to install the retail?

Clean instal.

besson3c · Oct 4, 2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
Clean instal.

This version is supposed to *be* the retail, so no reinstall should be necessary at all.

tikki · Oct 4, 2003, 05:46 PM

Thoughts:

My keyboard's eject and volume keys no longer work.

If I click the Bluetooth icon in AddressBook, the connection still only stays active for ten minutes. argh.

Anyone have a tip on how to get my eject and volume keys working again? G5 doesn't have a manual eject button

jessejlt · Oct 4, 2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by besson3c:
This version is supposed to *be* the retail, so no reinstall should be necessary at all.

Just because something is suppose to be something, doesn't make it so. This build may or may not be GM, but the fact that it is allowing upgrades from betas suggests the latter. Especially since Apple has clearly said that upgrades from betas to GM will not be possible... Such a thing would be very contradictive if this turns out to indeed be GM. I have a feeling that we won't have to wait long to find out though.
jesse ;-)

CarpetFluff · Oct 4, 2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by mikemako:
In the most recent build, is it possible to specify in Mail whether you're sending attachments to a Mac, Windows, or both (like in Entourage)? Some of my friends get confused with the strange method Mail has of sending double files.

Do iTunes visualizations still pause when it moves onto the next song? Does burning a CD with "0" second gap between songs still create a CD with a split second gap between tracks?

Thank you for answering.

I believe that the gap you refer to in iTunes is a limitation of the MP3 file format and not actually a problem with iTunes.

If you do some research I think you'll find that no software can do this, PC, Mac based or otherwise.

Bummer!

Xeo · Oct 4, 2003, 06:26 PM

How long has the cube-transition been in Image Capture when getting pictures from a camera? It's cool!

piracy · Oct 4, 2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by jessejlt:
Just because something is suppose to be something, doesn't make it so. This build may or may not be GM, but the fact that it is allowing upgrades from betas suggests the latter. Especially since Apple has clearly said that upgrades from betas to GM will not be possible... Such a thing would be very contradictive if this turns out to indeed be GM. I have a feeling that we won't have to wait long to find out though.
jesse ;-)

Actually, you're completely wrong. All previous versions of Mac OS X 10.x, including 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 have "allowed" installs over betas.

And 7B85 is indeed GM.

jessejlt · Oct 4, 2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by piracy:
Actually, you're completely wrong. All previous versions of Mac OS X 10.x, including 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 have "allowed" installs over betas.

And 7B85 is indeed GM.

It's a moot point as to whether or not previous versions of X have allowed beta upgrades. The WWDC build of X said that upgrades will not be allowed. Now this information could have been changed, I haven't a clue. But don't say that I'm "completely wrong" because I am not, I am simply regurgitating information provided by Apple to it's developers.
jesse ;-)

SMacTech · Oct 4, 2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Macnor:
It looks like I won�t buy Panther. Apple still has not fixed the issue with my geforce 4 32mb card. So Panther is useless for me. I can understand that there will still be bugs in the released version, but this is a big bug that apple should have fixed before releasing it. If I move a window around the screen gets messed up and if I try to change the resolution the screen goes black and I have to restart. Panther works better without the geforce drivers!!!

Too bad, I have to wait to see if apple will fix this bug before spending 129 dollars. Maybe they just won�t support retail nivida cards like I paid 75 dollars for.

I have a Geforce4 MX in my MDD 867 and have no problems at all. Looks great on my new 20" Cinema Display

piracy · Oct 4, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by jessejlt:
It's a moot point as to whether or not previous versions of X have allowed beta upgrades. The WWDC build of X said that upgrades will not be allowed. Now this information could have been changed, I haven't a clue. But don't say that I'm "completely wrong" because I am not, I am simply regurgitating information provided by Apple to it's developers.
jesse ;-)

Updates are never allowed by the testing criteria - that's always the case. You should never install a newer build, or a final build, over a previous prerelease build. That is what they mean when they say upgrades are not allowed. But the installer will technically let you do it - the installers have never technically prevented you from doing it before, and neither will they with 10.3.

cowerd · Oct 4, 2003, 07:51 PM

Just because something is suppose to be something, doesn't make it so. This build may or may not be GM, but the fact that it is allowing upgrades from betas suggests the latter. Especially since Apple has clearly said that upgrades from betas to GM will not be possible.

This could be the best "its not the GM excuse to date". Looks like Piracy will have his hands full. You can't fight the careful parsing of language with mere facts.

jessejlt · 08:28 PM

Originally posted by piracy:
Updates are never allowed by the testing criteria - that's always the case. You should never install a newer build, or a final build, over a previous prerelease build. That is what they mean when they say upgrades are not allowed. But the installer will technically let you do it - the installers have never technically prevented you from doing it before, and neither will they with 10.3.

Umm...no. Please don't speak down to me as though I'm some moronic no0b. You haven't a clue of who I am, and trying to switch tones will not derail me....I'm not that person.

Anyways, I don't know how one can missinterpret this language, but in case you would like to try, here is the WWDC build notes. Ah, the beauty of archives.

[quote]

besson3c · Oct 4, 2003, 08:25 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jessejlt:
Umm...no. Please don't speak down to me as though I'm some moronic no0b. You haven't a clue of who I am, and trying to switch tones will not derail me....I'm not that person.

Anyways, I don't know how one can missinterpret this language, but in case you would like to try, here is the WWDC build notes. Ah, the beauty of archives.

You better count me in as a misinterpreter...

- why do you feel Piracy is speaking down to you?
- why is "who you are" relevant?
- where did Piracy switch tones?
- who is "that" person?
- what WWDC build notes? They seem to be missing from your message

I know people who have upgraded successfully from older pre-releases to newer ones. I can guarantee you it is possible. Whether it is advisable is another story.

piracy · 08:47 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jessejlt:
Umm...no. Please don't speak down to me as though I'm some moronic no0b. You haven't a clue of who I am, and trying to switch tones will not derail me....I'm not that person.

Anyways, I don't know how one can missinterpret this language, but in case you would like to try, here is the WWDC build notes. Ah, the beauty of archives.

I am telling you that 7B85 is GM, and there's really nothing more to say.[1]

You used flawed logic to come to the conclusion that 7B85 might not be GM: you indicated that you were told at WWDC that upgrading from previous betas would not be "allowed". You erroneously assumed that the installer would physically prevent you from doing that. You are mistaken. Updates from previous betas of 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 were not "allowed" either, to use the word in the same context - except for one thing: the installer would let you do it all day long. The same is true for 10.3. Here, "not allowed" means that it would not be recommended or supported - not that it wouldn't be physically possible to use the final installer to install over a beta. You were simply mistaken in your reasoning, and misunderstood what you were told at WWDC.

[1] Showstoppers notwithstanding.

jessejlt · Oct 4, 2003, 08:33 PM

Geez, I don't know why I'm unable to paste this..I've tried three times now. HOpefully this will work.

Mac OS X "Panther" Developer Preview is a pre-release software. Do not use this pre-release software in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. You will not be able to upgrade from the "Panther" Developer Preview to the "Panther" GM release.

As for Piracy talking down to me. Since you don't think he was, I'll take it I was misinterpreting his comments...my bad. Sometimes it's difficult to understand the "tone" of someone over the intraweb

Anyways, "preview this post" looks like it's going to properly paste the dev notes *crosses fingers*
jesse ;-)

piracy · Oct 4, 2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by jessejlt:
Geez, I don't know why I'm unable to paste this..I've tried three times now. HOpefully this will work.

As for Piracy talking down to me. Since you don't think he was, I'll take it I was misinterpreting his comments...my bad. Sometimes it's difficult to understand the "tone" of someone over the intraweb
Anyways, "preview this post" looks like it's going to properly paste the dev notes *crosses fingers*
jesse ;-)

That quote is completely irrelevant for the following reasons:

1. The reasons I explained in my previous post.

2. Every single prerelease build of each version of Mac OS X - 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3 - has come with this warning in the seed notes. Each successive installer, up to and including each GM release, would physically let you install over a previous prerelease. You would however be left with an unsupported configuration, and an unacceptable configuration to test against. You are misinterpreting the statement to mean that the GM installer will explictly disallow or prevent you from installing over a prerelease. That is not the case. The GM installers for 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3 can perform an installation over a prerelase version of the respective OSes. This is not a sactioned, supported, or recommended scenario; thus the statement in all of the seednotes, and the statement at WWDC. You indeed do not want to install over a previous prerelease for a variety of reasons. The installer, however, will let you. There is no reason to specifically disallow this since the GM installer is designed to let you install over GM software in practice. It is because of this that the GM installer will also let you install over any previous version, though, as I said, that is not at all recommended, and will yield unpredictable results.

Hopefully this explains the situation clearly.

eklipse · Oct 4, 2003, 08:43 PM

Man, this brings back memories!

It's like the good ol' days back at wincent.org before 10.0 came out. "4K78 is NOT the fvcking GM!"

: awaits embargoed, PGP encrypted, review of the real GM :

piracy · 08:54 PM

Originally posted by cowerd:
This could be the best "its not the GM excuse to date". Looks like Piracy will have his hands full. You can't fight the careful parsing of language with mere facts.

Indeed, my hands will apparently be full with people who can't grasp the concept that 7B85 is 10.3 GM[1], just as they could not grasp that 4K78 was 10.0 GM, 5G64 was 10.1 GM, and 6C115 was 10.2 GM.

Interestingly, this same reasoning could have been applied to the GM releases of 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2, since their seed notes all said the same thing, and, in spite of that, their GM installers all let you install over prereleases.[2] Therefore, it is easy to see that this line of reasoning, while it may appear reasonable in a vacuum, is actually invalid when viewed historically, and indeed moreso since the GM installer for 10.3 does indeed let you install over previous prerelease builds.

[1] Standard disclaimer: anytime before ship, a showstopper could result in GM being pulled, though this is extremely, extremely unlikely.

[2] I should point out that I am not condoning or suggesting actually doing this, as it is not recommended or supported - just that the installer allows it.

Vader�s Pinch of Death · Oct 4, 2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by piracy:
Indeed, my hands will apparently be full with people who can't grasp the concept that 7B85 is 10.3 GM[1], just as they could not grasp that 4K78 was 10.0 GM, 5G64 was 10.1 GM, and 6C115 was 10.2 GM.

So Piracy, how do you know all these things anyway?

midwinter · Oct 4, 2003, 09:04 PM

Does the idisk progress bar provide some semblance of an accurate reflection of how long an upload will take in 10.3?

Cheers
Scott

besson3c · Oct 4, 2003, 09:17 PM

Looks like the problem with the crazy shadows on the desktop remains in the GM.

quandarry · Oct 4, 2003, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Macnor:
It looks like I won�t buy Panther. Apple still has not fixed the issue with my geforce 4 32mb card. So Panther is useless for me. I can understand that there will still be bugs in the released version, but this is a big bug that apple should have fixed before releasing it. If I move a window around the screen gets messed up and if I try to change the resolution the screen goes black and I have to restart. Panther works better without the geforce drivers!!!

Too bad, I have to wait to see if apple will fix this bug before spending 129 dollars. Maybe they just won�t support retail nivida cards like I paid 75 dollars for.

i have a geforce mx 32 and a geforce mx 64 and have no problem running panther.

nobodybutme · Oct 4, 2003, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
So Piracy, how do you know all these things anyway?

From his past posts, he seems to be a QA lackey of some sort (alpha or beta tester?). Note, I didn't say QA Engineer nor anyone with any level of significant impact to development and testing. I don't mean this in a rude way. It's just the way he comes across and what he talks about. Limited understanding, great passion, limited information. Makes sense.

iDriveX · Oct 4, 2003, 09:46 PM

Here's something interesting for you:

If you investigate Disc 3, you will find a folder called "Packages" that contains all of the software that needs to be installed:

AdditionalFonts.pkg
CommonAccessCard.pkg
EpsonPrinterDrivers2.pkg
Quicktime Installer
X11User.pkg

The "Quicktime Installer" file is a Classic Installer that is 10 MB large. The Description lists it as Quicktime 6.0.3. Is this a Classic Quicktime Updater?

Hop Pocket · Oct 4, 2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by SMacTech:
I have a Geforce4 MX in my MDD 867 and have no problems at all. Looks great on my new 20" Cinema Display

Heh, I bought my first mac desktop about 3 or 4 months ago, and bought a 20" Cinema Display to boot. It's awesome. I can't wait to see Panther on it.

iDriveX · Oct 4, 2003, 10:39 PM

Also another interesting note.

If you have the Bluetooth portion of the Address book activated and your phone is in range, you can go somewhere and if your phone rings and you come back, there is a message on your screen that you missed a call. It gives you the Name of the person and their telephone number if they are in your address book. And then you can cell them back or SMS message them from that window. Very nice!

thebunny · Oct 4, 2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Macnor:
It looks like I won�t buy Panther. Apple still has not fixed the issue with my geforce 4 32mb card. So Panther is useless for me. I can understand that there will still be bugs in the released version, but this is a big bug that apple should have fixed before releasing it. If I move a window around the screen gets messed up and if I try to change the resolution the screen goes black and I have to restart. Panther works better without the geforce drivers!!!

Too bad, I have to wait to see if apple will fix this bug before spending 129 dollars. Maybe they just won�t support retail nivida cards like I paid 75 dollars for.

I had some trouble with Panther. All I had to do was to reset the NVRAM...

Vader�s Pinch of Death · Oct 5, 2003, 01:40 AM

Well I think I have found a bug with 10.3 7B85.

If I launch word, open document, hit print, then choose fax, then hit the little address book icon to choose a fax number from my address book the window will come forward and not let you select anything in that window nor let you close it. You have to force quit it.

Word fine in Photoshop though.

JeremyS · Oct 5, 2003, 02:20 AM

I just installed and 7B85 over 7B80 and It's even faster!! There definetly appears to be some further optimizations to Panther between these builds as 7B80 was making my G4 350mhz have new life but 7B85 makes my G4 feel almost new again for the most part. Things are so much smoother than 10.2 seems they are squashing the bootlenecks everywhere.

If it's like this on a G4 350mhz I can't imagine what it would be like on a G5 Dual

Pheed · Oct 5, 2003, 02:24 AM

I just tested this on 7B80, and indeed the same thing happened. However, I was able to hit escape to close the window and return to Word. Try doing this in 7B85...

Strange that it works fine in Photoshop, though...

Originally posted by Vader�s Pinch of Death:
Well I think I have found a bug with 10.3 7B85.

If I launch word, open document, hit print, then choose fax, then hit the little address book icon to choose a fax number from my address book the window will come forward and not let you select anything in that window nor let you close it. You have to force quit it.

Word fine in Photoshop though.

Link · Oct 5, 2003, 03:19 AM

2 big beefs:

1. pro speakers freeze the OS. At startup it'll just hang on the blue screen (between apple logo and OS loading) .. you have to unplug the speakers and then it'll boot
2. it takes about 10 minutes for the speakers to be recognized
3. Internet sharing doesn't work at all... at least not in my case. Using PPPoE but no word on whether it works for other people or not (maybe it's just airport?)

Actually of the 3 builds of panther I've used internet sharing has NEVER worked. I'm surprised apple never caught that one.. it's like boeing testing a plane and then releasing it to public, only for the public to realize it's missing an engine or something.

Link · Oct 5, 2003, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by iDriveX:

The "Quicktime Installer" file is a Classic Installer that is 10 MB large. The Description lists it as Quicktime 6.0.3. Is this a Classic Quicktime Updater?

yes. when you start classic it will tell you that you need to update classic's quicktime.

iDriveX · Oct 5, 2003, 04:09 AM

Originally posted by Link:
yes. when you start classic it will tell you that you need to update classic's quicktime.

I haven't had classic since day one of Mac OS X 10.0 so I wouldn't know (Do you know how hard it was to be Classic free since Day One?)

addiecool · Oct 5, 2003, 04:43 AM

Just installed 7B85. I think it cannot be GM. If it is then either we are in for a poor release or my comp is jinxed....

Here's why:

1. In the finder some windows do not remember windows positions

2. When you working on an app and right click some icon on the desktop the contextual menu shows greyed out. You have to first click on the desktop and then right click for the menu to work
3. I tried to restart but it would just log me out and again log me in automatically. I had to shutdown and boot. This does not happen always, but happened twice with me.

I installed it on a clean formatted partition on my Dual 800 Pmac.

I will post more bugs here if found

tRr · Oct 5, 2003, 04:44 AM

I've just gotten a hold of 7B85 and the only thing new I have noticed is when starting classic, the icon in the Dock now shades in the "9" portion of the icon orange showing the progess of how much of the OS has loaded. I havn't downloaded much of the new builds so this could be old.

addiecool · Oct 5, 2003, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by tRr:
I've just gotten a hold of 7B85 and the only thing new I have noticed is when starting classic, the icon in the Dock now shades in the "9" portion of the icon orange showing the progess of how much of the OS has loaded. I havn't downloaded much of the new builds so this could be old.

I think this is new. it was not there in 7b74 as I can remember.

cSurfr · Oct 5, 2003, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by addiecool:
Just installed 7B85. I think it cannot be GM. If it is then either we are in for a poor release or my comp is jinxed....

Here's why:

1. In the finder some windows do not remember windows positions
2. When you working on an app and right click some icon on the desktop the contextual menu shows greyed out. You have to first click on the desktop and then right click for the menu to work
3. I tried to restart but it would just log me out and again log me in automatically. I had to shutdown and boot. This does not happen always, but happened twice with me.

I installed it on a clean formatted partition on my Dual 800 Pmac.

I will post more bugs here if found

Maybe your computer is wacked. I don't have any of those problems on my 1ghz 12" I completely formatted my drive when i installed 85, so maybe that helped. You said you installed on a clean partition, so you still have 10.2 on your machine somewhere ?

addiecool · Oct 5, 2003, 05:12 AM

no 10.2 here. Also after restart all problems gone except the finder window position thing. That again maybe machine dependent.

But otherwise THIS THING ROCKS

Link · Oct 5, 2003, 05:20 AM

doubt that's machine dependant. I have the prob too... but 10.2's been shipped with worse bugs

addiecool · Oct 5, 2003, 05:34 AM

Since 10.3 has been hmmm... declared GM, can anybody verify this:

When I install Acrobat 6, the PDF Printer does not show up in the Print Center. Is there a way to make this work?

Can't wait to go and buy a Family pack

GnOm · Oct 5, 2003, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by piracy:
...a showstopper could result in GM being pulled, though this is extremely, extremely unlikely.

*cough*if you have access to radarweb you should check it, I count more than one (I'd consider a showstopper, but nobody asks for my opinion anyway).

cheers.

Macnor · Oct 5, 2003, 07:28 AM

I know a lot of people have problems with panther and the retail gerforce 4 32mb card. The problem does not apply to the cards supplied by apple. The read before install document does say that you have to have a APPLE supplied video card. So thats why I am going to wait to see if you really need a apple supplied video card.

The best thing would be if I could replace the panther video drivers.

Anand · Oct 5, 2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by addiecool:
Just installed 7B85. I think it cannot be GM. If it is then either we are in for a poor release or my comp is jinxed....

Here's why:

1. In the finder some windows do not remember windows positions
2. When you working on an app and right click some icon on the desktop the contextual menu shows greyed out. You have to first click on the desktop and then right click for the menu to work
3. I tried to restart but it would just log me out and again log me in automatically. I had to shutdown and boot. This does not happen always, but happened twice with me.

I installed it on a clean formatted partition on my Dual 800 Pmac.

I will post more bugs here if found

Installs can be bad. This is often true when the source of the OS is not Apple.

In my install of 7B85, I could not use the network icon - it was a broken alias. In all the versions I have tried, mounted shares never show on the desktop or sidebar (and yes I have checked and unchecked and checked that option). This is an imporant feature for me as we currently have to rely on Sharity and Dave for our cross platform sharing - which is a bit of a pain.

Many people have said that connected shares mount on the desktop but I have yet to see it - from >30 installs- or in any pictures.

addiecool · Oct 5, 2003, 09:24 AM

I connect to SMB Share from the Netwrok Tab in the Sidebar, then i just make an alias on the desktop. Works always and mounts straight from the desktop even after restart

Angus_D · Oct 5, 2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by GnOm:
*cough*if you have access to radarweb you should check it

No, if you were an Apple employee and had access to Radar you could check if there were any showstoppers in the components you're assigned to.

piracy · Oct 5, 2003, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by addiecool:
Just installed 7B85. I think it cannot be GM.

Ahh, memories...

"I just installed <4K78/5G64/6C115/7B85>, and there is NO WAY that it can be GM because it has <Bug X>. Apple would never release an OS with <Bug X>! Therefore, this can't possibly be GM."

Newsflash: every single OS release from every vendor up to present day has bugs. No product is bug free. It is all about priorities, marketing, timelines, and decisions. Some bugs will be pushed off to updates to 10.3 (e.g., 10.3.1, etc.). Some will be pushed off to future releases of Mac OS X beyond 10.3.x.

Not every feature makes it, not every bug gets fixed, and not everything is as important to everyone else as YOU think it is. There are hundreds of programmers, engineers, managers, QA folks, developer liaisons, and all sorts of people that go into making this intensely complex product. It WILL contain bugs. Visual bugs, functional bugs, unforeseen bugs...the goal is to reduce or eliminate these as much as is humanly possible and practical before the decision is made to ship.

Originally posted by GnOm:
*cough*if you have access to radarweb you should check it, I count more than one (I'd consider a showstopper, but nobody asks for my opinion anyway).

There are no showstoppers that would cause GM to be pulled at this time. And uh, there are LOTS of open bugs on Panther.

Open bug != showstopper, even if you think it is.