[Marook]

Originally posted by jamesa:
Well, I think I found a way to get a lot of that functionality back. It's simple.

Allow people to right click on icons in the dock!

Hmm, then we just need Apple to make a mouse with two buttons... rightclicking with a one-button mouse is not that easy.... or do you mean Control-Clicking????

[ShortcutToMoncton]

....or maybe you could do something totally different to activate the menu...say, "click-and-a-half" plus bang the mouse three times against the desk......



No, seriously...the Control panels seem to be operating from a single screen in MacOS X. While I like calling up a specific one, having them all bunched together is, I think, a good idea. Maybe there will be a seperate folder for third-party ones, or perhaps different "areas" to the folder...?

I DO like the idea, though, especially with regards to minimized windows. Like I said in another post, maybe a number under (or partly on) the Dock icon could indicate the number of minimized things in that app?????

greg



------------------
Though the day's been
really long
I still feel I'm close to
nowhere....

[Sal]

Slightly off topic (and I'm guilty of posting it as a new thread) but I wanted to run this by you and see what you thought of it (as an Apple Employee).

You know how everyone has been complaining about losing the Apple Menu, the Application Menu and the Control Strip?

Well, I think I found a way to get a lot of that functionality back. It's simple.

Allow people to right click on icons in the dock!

I know, you're thinking, hey, that's not going to bring my beloved Apple Menu back - but hear me out.

Apart from being able to do the basic kind of thing like Show, Quit, Hide, Maximize, you'd be able to do heaps of Application Specific Stuff. Think about it...

* PPPConnect. You could connect and disconnect by right clicking on the icon in the dock and selecting the action. * You could get mail to create a new message without having to go to the program itself. Or you could get it to check mail - for one accounts or all accounts. * You could get your MP3 player to play, FF, Rew, stop, load a new playlist... * System Preferences (and I really love this one) could allow you to select a specific control panel to open (just like the Apple Menu's contextual menus) *Preview (and a whole host of other apps) could open a specific document up

I think you get the idea, anyhow.

Plus, what could be done is to create a new menu under the "right-click menu" that you use whenver you right click in the finder or the desktop, and you could get all these functions from there too.

It wouldn't confuse the dock for beginning users because they wouldn't know about right-clicking. However, it would make the dock infinitely more scalable for pros.

Thanks!

Valid points all, and I'll remind everyone that Mac OS X Beta is software in flux. There's still much to do and refine before the release. It's quite possible that new ideas, such as the one's you mentioned, will find their way into the final release or later releases.

Make your voice heard by posting to the Apple Feedback Page.

I've been having troubel with the osascript (and related) commands...

If I'm logged in as an admin account (or root):
% echo "2+3" | osascript
Syntax error -1750. Couldn't get error text because of error -1750.

If I'm logged in as a non-admin account:
echo "2+3" | osascript
kCGSErrorIllegalArgument : CGSNewConnection cannot get connection port
kCGSErrorIllegalArgument : CGSNewConnection cannot get connection port
kCGSErrorInvalidConnection : CGSGetEventPort: Invalid connection

Any suggestions?

Andrew
[email protected]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bleyddyn:
[B]I've been having troubel with the osascript (and related) commands...

If I'm logged in as an admin account (or root):
% echo "2+3" | osascript
Syntax error -1750. Couldn't get error text because of error -1750.

If I'm logged in as a non-admin account:
echo "2+3" | osascript
kCGSErrorIllegalArgument : CGSNewConnection cannot get connection port
kCGSErrorIllegalArgument : CGSNewConnection cannot get connection port
kCGSErrorInvalidConnection : CGSGetEventPort: Invalid connection

Any suggestions?

Yeah, read the docs.

...and then try this:
echo "2+3" | /usr/bin/osascript

Originally posted by Sal:
No other language offers the depth of control that AppleScript possesses. AppleScript can query and control objects deep in applications and the OS and has the ability to talk between application, machines, and networks.

That's just silly. Other languages can do the same thing. AppleScript's ability to do this is not tied to the language at all. I can do the same stuff in MacPerl.

[Sal]

That's just silly. Other languages can do the same thing. AppleScript's ability to do this is not tied to the language at all. I can do the same stuff in MacPerl.

Excuse me, I'm falling into the standard habit of using the word "AppleScript" to describe the Macintosh OSA. You are correct, any OSA language, such JavaScript OSA or Frontier's Usertalk, can pull the internal application-system hooks.

I do however prefer AppleScript's syntax to the others. ;-)

QUESTION: how do you write an "every/whose" specifier in MacPerl?

[michaelb]

Originally posted by Sal:
I do however prefer AppleScript's syntax to the others. ;-)

QUESTION: how do you write an "every/whose" specifier in MacPerl?

Agreed.

If I haven't used Perl for a month my mind finds the cryptic syntax quite bewildering when I return. AppleScript remains readable after an eon.

That said, there are so many ways to skin a cat under Perl that any cats in the neighborhood probably flee at sound of it. Where AppleScript benefits from simplicity, Perl gains its rightful reputation as a very versatile but highly obstruse language.

To answer your question with an example, say you had a bunch of Finder windows open with the names:
Red Apples
Green Apples
Red Strawberries
Green Strawberries

and you wanted to find the windows with the word "Red" in them...


Under AppleScript:
-----------------------------
tell application "Finder"
set myWindowList to name of every window whose name contains "Red"
end tell

-- result: {"Red Strawberries", "Red Apples"}
-----------------------------


Under Perl: (assuming a hypothetical Perl-scriptable Finder)
--------------------------------------------
foreach $key ( keys(%windowNames) ) {
if ( $windowNames{$key} =~ m/Red/ ) {
$myWindowList[$i++] = $windowNames{$key};
}
}

# result: {"Red Strawberries", "Red Apples"}
--------------------------------------------


Yes, I know which code I'd rather maintain! AppleScript rocks. The Perl script could be "flattened" but would gain even more cyptibility. Your point, Sal, is a very valid one.


Warning: do not try this under Mac OS X... Because every window there is called "Finder". Dig, dig. :-)

[Sal]

Agreed.

If I haven't used Perl for a month my mind finds the cryptic syntax quite bewildering when I return. AppleScript remains readable after an eon.

That said, there are so many ways to skin a cat under Perl that any cats in the neighborhood probably flee at sound of it. Where AppleScript benefits from simplicity, Perl gains its rightful reputation as a very versatile but highly obstruse language.

To answer your question with an example, say you had a bunch of Finder windows open with the names: Red Apples Green Apples Red Strawberries Green Strawberries

and you wanted to find the windows with the word "Red" in them...


Under AppleScript: -----------------------------

tell application "Finder"
set myWindowList to name of every window whose name contains "Red"
end tell

-- result: {"Red Strawberries", "Red Apples"} -----------------------------


Under Perl: (assuming a hypothetical Perl-scriptable Finder) --------------------------------------------
foreach $key ( keys(%windowNames) ) {
if ( $windowNames{$key} =~ m/Red/ ) {
$myWindowList[$i++] = $windowNames{$key};
}
}

# result: {"Red Strawberries", "Red Apples"} --------------------------------------------


Yes, I know which code I'd rather maintain! AppleScript rocks. The Perl script could be "flattened" but would gain even more cyptibility. Your point, Sal, is a very valid one.


Warning: do not try this under Mac OS X... Because every window there is called "Finder". Dig, dig. :-)

Thank you for that very descriptive reply. Can I use that example the next time I'm asked "Well, why don't they just write a Perl script?" LOL!

[BerberCarpet]

Originally posted by michaelb:
Under AppleScript:

tell application "Finder"
set myWindowList to name of every window whose name contains "Red"
end tell

result: {"Red Strawberries", "Red Apples"}

now... i have _no_ experience in scripting in general, or Applescript specifically (beyond swap image calls in dreamweaver/fireworks).

But..

is is really that easy to write a script in applescript?

Sal, I have been following this thread for a couple of weeks now, and I am becoming more and more intrigued.

It never occured to me how much you can do with this, apparantly, very powerful little language.

I am very very bright (no bragging, but no false modesty either: everything i have was given to me, and isn't my own doing), and can philosophize about sixth-dimensional geomoetry (though i can't spell), but i don't get algebra nor programming at all.

Is it possible that i could teach _my_ computer to read the paper in the morning for me?

(thinking back to your little "gather the news for me from the web" script)

Where do I learn to write AppleScripts?

And, once i learn them, will i be able to use them in web pages that i serve off my OS X server (for now!) box in .jsp pages?

or is there some "Apple-branded" applescript "AppleScriptedPages" pluging for apache coming?

as a web developer, if I could write a script in my pages that says

==

Tell "shopping cart" that "Toaster" is now "11.99" in "us dollars"

===

or something

you would have a person here who might never come up for air when it comes to this stuff.

anyway..... the point is:

how do i go about learning how to do this stuff?

and

is there a possibility that my OS X box serving web pages will be able to have applescripts in the HTML?

oh boy.

[Sal]

how do i go about learning how to do this stuff?

and

is there a possibility that my OS X box serving web pages will be able to have applescripts in the HTML?

Visit the AppleScript website: www.apple.com/applescript

there are many links to training and instructional materials on that page.

For an overview of what AppleScript is:
AppleScript Overview

For an introductory tutorial:

AppleScript Guidebook Modules

Download the Beginner's Tutorial. Install and do the tutorial (about 20 minutes).

As to putting AppleScript in webpages, both clientside and server options are already available. There is a WebSTAR plugin that responds to embedded AppleScript commands placed in HTML.

There is also a clientside browser plugin called ScriptDEMON that will execute, on the client's computer, scripts placed in webpages.

[Nebagakid]

Sal, why are there only two scripts for the beta (including one for an application that was pulled, SoundJam MP for Mac OS X)?

I mean, where are the scripts that let you play games and design your dream house. I once made a script that was a maze, quite fun. Maybe you peoples over there write a script involving "Mac", the loveable squishy Apple that has limbs and is able to talk and promote Apple productes, and his battle with the forces of evil?
I would download and play it, twice!

------------------
CLOWNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sal]

Sal, why are there only two scripts for the beta (including one for an application that was pulled, SoundJam MP for Mac OS X)?

I mean, where are the scripts that let you play games and design your dream house. I once made a script that was a maze, quite fun. Maybe you peoples over there write a script involving "Mac", the loveable squishy Apple that has limbs and is able to talk and promote Apple productes, and his battle with the forces of evil?
I would download and play it, twice!

Actually, we ship a couple dozen scripts with the Mac OS Beta. Look in the Applications > GrabBag > AppleScript folder.

Since our focus for the Beta was creating a strong scripting foundation, the level of scriptability in the beata is incomplete. The final version will have much more scriptability of course.

To the poster who said he was interested in working for Apple. Be careful trying to get a job with Apple. I almost got on iServices for web objects consulting.

I got 3 months worth of runaround and procrastination from an iServices Manager and just when I was supposed to be hired finally, Apple imposed a hiring freeze and I was left hanging after 3 months of playing with these people. I posted a note to the MacOS X mailing list about my experience and two people emailed me saying they had similar experiences.

I hope such ill treatment of prospective recruits is limited to the iServices division and is not characteristic of the whole company.




------------------
James Gregurich

Sal,
Thanks for showing up! I'm just beginning to get started
with AS, and it's a challenge so far, coming from shell
scripting and Perl. I wanted to make anyone at Apple aware
of my experience with their products so far. First, some background,
I'm a former Mac basher of the highest order, but then I heard
of OS X. I looked around on some Mac websites for info on X,
and heard of it's UNIX underpinnings. I'm a Solaris admin by
trade, so of course I was intrigued, and a month later spent
$4,000 on a new Mac. If the idea behind OS X is to appeal to
new Mac users, then it's working. I'm real close to selling
two more machines to friends, after showing them the beta on
my machine at home. I will be buying a $3500 Power Book in
about a month. I would never had decided to do this had
OS X not appeared. I've shown friends and co-workers two
things that have made the difference every time, a real
shell on a Mac, and Apple Scripts, and the response I get
is "Wow." Run this up the flag pole at Apple to who ever
needs to see it, because they're they're on the right
track. Can you imagine what would happen if everyone who
was introduced to the platform spent $8,000 the first three
months after? I see a lot of grumblings about Aqua on
these boards, and I think some of it is justified, I like
OS 9's interface a lot better than I thought I would. But
those people need to give CDE or Afterstep a shot, and I
bet they would change their tune. I think Aqua is far
from perfect, but it's one hell of a great rough draft. Ok,
I'm rambling. Here's a far-off Apple Script wish:
Do you think Apple Script would ever be able to 'read'
Terminal.App? I think the ability to 'screen-scrape'
the text out of the terminal would have about a
gazillion fun and very useful applications. Just off
the top of my head, splitting text in the term like
awk splits fields would be useful for process manipulation,
and also you could use it as a (hackish) interface between
the basix UNIX tools, shell scripts, whatever.
Just my two cents. Thanks for all your hard
work on a great product, I'm sold.

harry

[sordid]

Hi Sal,

Does Apple have a framework for application communication that is widely supported based not on user interface commands but direct process communication?

I am looking at Microsoft's .NET architecture lately, and it seems v.good.

For instance: How does a program find out about new functions in another program its trying to control?

Hi Sal,

When you were at Quicktime Live, did you hear anything about the new stuff that has been added to the QuickTime Player dictionary? Just got QT5 the other day and was happy to see cut and paste and import pictures added... but they are not turned on yet!

A request.... can someone add scriptability to "MakeEffectMovie" so that we can automate QT transitions? Scriptable Player only gets you part of the way.

Don

[Sal]

Do you think Apple Script would ever be able to 'read' Terminal.App?

What a story! Incredible. Thank you for posting.

As to your question, we do plan to have AppleScript integrate with the OS so that you can execute AppleScript scripts via the command line and vice versa. We're looking into adding scriptability into the Terminal app as well. Thanks for your vote.

BTW, the AppleScript support in Mac OS X beta is far from complete, the release version will be much more robust.

[Sal]

Does Apple have a framework for application communication that is widely supported based not on user interface commands but direct process communication?

I am looking at Microsoft's .NET architecture lately, and it seems v.good.

For instance: How does a program find out about new functions in another program its trying to control?

Mac OS has a very powerful query and control mechanism between computers. It is called Program Linking. Program Linking has been around for years, but with Mac OS 9 you can query and control any Mac over an IP network, including the Internet!

Complete documentation and sample scripts for doing Program Linking over IP are available here:

/www.apple.com/applescript/help_mods.html

Download and install the AppleScript Guidebook Module for Program Linking over IP.

[Sal]

When you were at Quicktime Live, did you hear anything about the new stuff that has been added to the QuickTime Player dictionary? Just got QT5 the other day and was happy to see cut and paste and import pictures added... but they are not turned on yet!

A request.... can someone add scriptability to "MakeEffectMovie" so that we can automate QT transitions? Scriptable Player only gets you part of the way.

QuickTime 5.0 Player has added some incredible AppleScript commands, including complete track control, and the ability to set movie files to auto-present and auto-close when done playing. Some of the new features are still not functioning correctly in the early builds. We'll get them working for the release.

We're looking into providing a scriptable means of applying transitions -- it's on the list for sure.

BTW, there'll be a rev of the existing QuickTIme Scripts collection for 5.0 with many more scripts to take advantage of the new abilities.

I know scripting is the topic but...
I am learning *cough* Win2000 pro to pass a certian test *cough*. It seems to me that OS X can and does address a lot of the corporate issues that *cough* NT or Win2000 does that OS 9 didnt or couldnt. I am seeing a lot of simalarities in the relationship that windows NT/2000 workstation and Windows NT/2000server has compared with OS X and OS X server. If Apple plays things right do you see this as the next step to competing in the Enterprise market.

P.S. I already have all the Apple certifications that are available.

[Sal]

If Apple plays things right do you see this as the next step to competing in the Enterprise market.

Beyond focusing on automation issues, I'm not the strategist for the company, so I'm not qualified to comment on our future marketing directions.

As you stated, being UNIX-based with an approachable interface makes Mac OS X a very compelling platform for a wide variety of potential customers, especially large and small businesses which have employees with varying degrees of computer skills. The beauty of Mac OS X is how well it appeals to novices and experts alike. I'm sure the enterprise market is paying close attention to its progress.

[McDriver]

Hi Sal
It�s very good to have you onboard this forum, gives me the feeling of beeing almost inside the doors of Apple. The question I have for you is about logging in to my Internet service provider with a scrip. I have an adsl modem connected via ethernet. When I login I go to a certain page in my browser and have to fill in log and pass. Right now I have both log/pass in a document and copy paste them in to the browser window. Can I wright an Applescript to do this for me? (I�m NOT a skilled scriptwrighter, beginner one could say ) The login page is a javascript for it doesn�t work without java enabled in explorer.
BTW is there any point in having the software updater running in MacosX, is there coming any updates to the beta that can be downloaded? You don�t have to compromise yourself with an answer to the last question, just qurious.
M

Hi Sal, one question would really interest me:
Will there be updates for the OS X Public Beta??? This would be very cool, so Apple could still add a lot (standard drivers for example)

Steve, your boss )

My suggestion for OS X re Applescript:

Include TONS of sub categorized examples. I'm sure you guys at Apple in the Applescript dept have Applescripts for just about everything. Why not include as many as possible. This would benefite everyone and would be no skin off anyone's back.

[Sal]

It�s very good to have you onboard this forum, gives me the feeling of beeing almost inside the doors of Apple. The question I have for you is about logging in to my Internet service provider with a scrip. I have an adsl modem connected via ethernet. When I login I go to a certain page in my browser and have to fill in log and pass. Right now I have both log/pass in a document and copy paste them in to the browser window. Can I wright an Applescript to do this for me? (I�m NOT a skilled scriptwrighter, beginner one could say ) The login page is a javascript for it doesn�t work without java enabled in explorer.

Hmmm. Two approaches:

open location "yourname:[email protected]/formactionaddress"

or... try using the scriptable URL Access form posting to post the form> An example is in the AppleScript Guidebook for that topic.

www.apple.com/applescript/help_mods.html

BTW is there any point in having the software updater running in MacosX, is there coming any updates to the beta that can be downloaded? You don�t have to compromise yourself with an answer to the last question, just qurious.

I don't know, but I assume they included that software for a reason.

[This message has been edited by Sal (edited 10-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sal (edited 10-21-2000).]

[Sal]

My suggestion for OS X re Applescript: Include TONS of sub categorized examples. I'm sure you guys at Apple in the Applescript dept have Applescripts for just about everything. Why not include as many as possible. This would benefite everyone and would be no skin off anyone's back.

Good suggestion, we'll se what we can do.

Many customers aren't aware that we do provide hundreds of script examples on the AppleScript website both in the Free Scripts area and in the AppleScript Guidebook Modules.

For example, did you know that the AppleScript Guidebook Module for Networking contains over 40 complete examples that you can copy and paste and alter to suit your needs?

[mikebat]

Hi Sal,

Just to let you know.. on the Help Modules page, the version of the "Users & Groups" module is listed as "0100" when it is actually 0150.

Hi Sal, it's great to have you here.

Concerning AS, wil Mac OS be a Dowgrade, a status quo or an upgrade. Right now it seems to me that the AS team is focused on making AS work on Mac OS X but were're the new features ? There's no glimpse of new feature and that worries me.

Will Mac OS X be the start of a new AS era, or will it repeat the same mistakes as Mac OS calssic : will finally apple eat its dog food and make every software it produce fully scriptable attachable and recordable ?

What about "code-free AS" support : that measn AS support comming just from the use of Apple Apis. I'm thinking about the GUI : every action a user could make with the mouse, the keyboard etc. Has to be applescripatble.

Moreover those GUI api should be able to send back their state, so the Script could react to those states like a human.

Will the API be written with automation in mind, or will we suffer once again to be stuck by a dialog box (like printing long ago, like volume initializing.

Speed waht about the speed : copland promised us 10,000 AppleEvents/seconds. Ok I don't know what to do with that many, but more than 60/second is a must.

Will AS commands be optimized for speed ? list management is dog slow.

Will we able to have access to the gui like with facespan ?

Will Applescript be compilable like a real language, or byte code compilable ?

Mac OS X beta's AS is dog slow WHY ? with a ppc native AEvents manager it should have been faster.

Will we have new AS commands, when will we be able to make "whose" working on existing lists ?

I konw you're working real hard, and I know you're the guy who's the best, but I'm sadden to see that Mac OS X AS is heading to, at best, a status quo.

With this new release Apple as the unique opportunity to make things right, it's time to make Carbon, cocoa and the gui APIs scriptable. It's time to make the plumbing for a FAST applescript.

[Person Man]

Originally posted by TheVince:

Mac OS X beta's AS is dog slow WHY ? with a ppc native AEvents manager it should have been faster.

Because it's BETA software! Seriously, since they are adding AppleScript code to an OS (NextStep) that didn't have it before, the code may not be completely optimized yet. Not only that, but there may be lots of time-consuming debugging code that probably won't be removed until the final release.

Certainly it will be faster. Don't judge the final release based on what you see in the beta.

Sal,

I've just installed the developers tools and within 1 hour I had built my first Java app. This is a brilliant enviroment to work in. How about using this to build applescripts? A while back there was a discussion on Architosh on the possibility of creating an application "iDeveloper" that would allow people with a very limited computation background build simple applications (perhaps just to try something out). Perhaps this could be a way of achieving this?

[Sal]

Concerning AS, wil Mac OS be a Dowgrade, a status quo or an upgrade. Right now it seems to me that the AS team is focused on making AS work on Mac OS X but were're the new features ? There's no glimpse of new feature and that worries me.

AppleScript in Mac OS X is and will be an on-going process with the intial stage focusing on "plumbing" issues like sending events between classic and cocoa, etc. Next we'll be adding scriptability of key OS components starting with the Desktop app and System Prefs. Then we'll continue will other issues.

For the beta we're at just past the plumbing stage with minimal scripting elsewhere. By the release that situation will improve considerably.

Please realize that it may take a few releases to catch up to where we were and to address all the new features. The AppleScript Team has done a tremendous job re-creating this powerful technology on a UNIX base.

Will Mac OS X be the start of a new AS era, or will it repeat the same mistakes as Mac OS calssic : will finally apple eat its dog food and make every software it produce fully scriptable attachable and recordable ?

Hmmm. With Mac OS 9 we achieved a very high level of scriptability (even scriptable voice recognition) but it does appear that we need to make more progress with the rest of our software such as Final Cut Pro and iMovie. You can help in this process by sending in feedback requesting AppleScript support for non-scriptable Apple products. ;-)

What about "code-free AS" support : that measn AS support comming just from the use of Apple Apis. I'm thinking about the GUI : every action a user could make with the mouse, the keyboard etc. Has to be applescripatble.

Under consideration.

Moreover those GUI api should be able to send back their state, so the Script could react to those states like a human.

Under consideration.

Will the API be written with automation in mind, or will we suffer once again to be stuck by a dialog box (like printing long ago, like volume initializing.

Under consideration.

Speed waht about the speed : copland promised us 10,000 AppleEvents/seconds. Ok I don't know what to do with that many, but more than 60/second is a must.

Mac OS 9 was hitting around 400 per second. I'm not sure what the current rate with Mac OS X is. I wouldn't worry about this until they've tuned the OS.

Will AS commands be optimized for speed ? list management is dog slow.

See above.

Will we able to have access to the gui like with facespan ?

Under consideration.

Will we have new AS commands, when will we be able to make "whose" working on existing lists ?

Having AppleScript support its object model is a priority. We're looking into this.

I konw you're working real hard, and I know you're the guy who's the best, but I'm sadden to see that Mac OS X AS is heading to, at best, a status quo.

It's BETA. However please do file your requests concerning AppleScript on the Apple Feedback site. The more AppleScript requests the better!

With this new release Apple as the unique opportunity to make things right, it's time to make Carbon, cocoa and the gui APIs scriptable. It's time to make the plumbing for a FAST applescript.

Don't worry too much. I think you'll be pleased with some of the new abilities of AppleScript in Mac OS X. It is a new world and we've worked very hard to ensure that AppleScript will continue to be an important part of the new OS.

[This message has been edited by Sal (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Sal]

I've just installed the developers tools and within 1 hour I had built my first Java app. This is a brilliant enviroment to work in. How about using this to build applescripts? A while back there was a discussion on Architosh on the possibility of creating an application "iDeveloper" that would allow people with a very limited computation background build simple applications (perhaps just to try something out). Perhaps this could be a way of achieving this?

The development environment of Mac OS X is indeed flexible and powerful.

Someone asked Sal...
Will we able to have access to the gui like with facespan ?
-------

Under consideration.

Sal,

I've been reading with interest and really appreciate your participation. I have to comment on the above, because I think the addition of a GUI for AppleScript would be a huge plus for the Mac platform. I like FaceSpan and use it for many projects. But the resources behind this product seem to be limited, and support is lagging. REALBasic certainly look interesting, but doesn't appear to offer the ease of AppleScript.

Here's my argument for Apple developing a full GUI for AS. This may be your reasoning as well, and before you ask, yes, I've posted this to the OS X feedback page. <g>

----

Apple is always hungry for more developers. Besides commercial products, freeware and shareware developers have often fueled interest in the Mac platform by providing useful tools (some eventually developed into commercial products).

AppleScript is an extraordinary tool in that it allows *end-users* to develop very customized solutions to meet their specific needs. With AS, for the first time users see computers doing what we all expected them to do in the first place--eliminate tedious, repititive tasks and cut-down on human errors.

At Apple Seminars and other events, I demonstrate custom-developed scripts which save users not minutes or hours but days of time, and in some cases reduce workflows by several weeks. Many times have I said to Windows-based clients, "If you add a Mac, we can automate this, and that. I'm sorry, but there is no support for Visual Basic automation in QuarkXPress."

But there is a category missing between applications developed by programmers versus highly customized solutions developed by scripters: scripts which can be developed and appeal to hundreds or thousands of users. Sure, there are a lot of scripts floating around which can be used for e-mail or other uses by many users, but when scripters begin to develop solutions for distribution, they are held by AS's limited interface options.

With an AppleScript-accessible GUI tool (like FaceSpan or DialogDirector) *built-in* to the OSX system, Apple would potentially add hundreds of scripters to its list of third-party developers. Like the early days of shareware and freeware, even more custom-developed tools for Mac users with full GUIs would emerge and attract others to the platform. Over a couple of years, the list of "Mac only" titles could grow significantly because of nice little apps built upon AppleScript. Not only would this possibly attract Wintel users, but it would also encourage Mac users to upgrade to OSX to have access to these applications.

One quick example: QuarkXPress's measurement palette has always been limited to specifying coordinates based on the upper-left-hand corner. PageMaker, InDesign, and Illustrator all offer users the ability to specify other corners or sides of an object via "proxy" points for precise position of objects. Quark has never developed an equivalent, nor has any XTension developer that I know of.

A few years ago, I wrote a floating "proxy palette" FaceSpan application that floated over Quark to add this feature, along with the ability to center objects on pages, create guides to the edge of objects or the page, and move the zero point to the edge of objects. I've never distributed it widely because of issues with floating windoids in FaceSpan.

But it is a feature that could appeal to a few hundred users. And if I could base it upon a reliable GUI tool built-in to OSX and distribute it as a 50k freeware application , it would in its small way add to the benefits of the Mac platform, as would hundreds of other scripts with a full GUI.

Developers would also benefit because they are always looking for new ideas, and here they would have projects where the interface has already been developed and received response from user input.

OK. This rant has already been way too long and I'm preaching to the choir. <g>

But the gist of what I'm saying is if Apple wants to add a few hundred developers (or more) to the platform, bundle an AS GUI tool with OSX.

----

Again, thanks for your particpation. And keep up the good work!

Ray Robertson
Scripting Matters, Inc.
Atlanta

[[email protected]]

I am having to agree with RayRobertson. I used facespan a few times. I used it to create a setup utility that installed apps and customized the os after a clean install. I could perform a clean install and have the user back up in less than 30 min. Without the script it usualy took 4 hours. With this new os we could pass around some very usefull scripts for installing apps and configuring things only accessable from the command line without having to have developer software or knowing how to program.

[MrTomServo]

I know a lot of people like having their disks and Trash on their desktop. But, (like me) some of them don't want to hack their way through the Terminal to get it.

So, through the magic of AppleScript, I present Rubbish, a tool to sit on your desktop that you can drag files and folders to, and have it throw them away for you.

Plus, there's an extra goodie: an AppleScript that will open your startup hard disk for you.

All of the source scripts are included. Modify them to your heart's content. Download it here: http://www.geocities.com/hp38g/rubbish.sit

It's a testament to the flexibility and usefulness of AppleScript, even in its beta state. Thanks Sal!

Robert

[Sal]

Gentlemen, thank you for your responses and requests regarding the development of AppleScript UI tools.

We absolutely understand the importance, relevancy, and urgency of this topic, and I apologize for the necessary brevity of my previous response.

However, at this time, I have no announcement to make regarding this issue.

[kimojohnson]

Hi Sal

I've posted this question on Applescript lists but received no response. I'm trying to create an applescript that will search for all files modified yesterday. This script will run everyday and FTP the new files to our Linux server where they will be backed up.

I would like to script Sherlock to do the search for me but I can't figure out how to get it to search for files modified yesterday. I save search criteria and use the "search ... using ..." command but I think yesterday's date is fixed in the file.

I then tried to get a list of every file in the folder I'm trying to back up using "set theList to entire contents of . . ." The Finder runs out of memory for this command.

Finally I've created a script that loops through every folder/subfolder saving the names of files modified yesterday. This works but is really slow.

My question is: what is the best way to create a script that finds all files modified yesterday?

[Sal]

I would like to script Sherlock to do the search for me but I can't figure out how to get it to search for files modified yesterday. I save search criteria and use the "search ... using ..." command but I think yesterday's date is fixed in the file.

Ah! The secret is to use a pre-saved Sherlock Search File. Then have the script launch Sherlock and perform the search! BTW, by using the launch verb instead of activate, Sherlock will not display its UI and the search will happen quickly.

Code:
tell application "Sherlock 2"
	launch
	set the matching_items to �
		(search (path to the startup disk) using the search_file) as list
	quit
end tell

Hey Sal,
I loved your presentation at Quicktime Live. I think it was the best there. I had a question though. In one of your demonstrations you showed an Appleworks database being queried by Applescript to find Annotations for corresponding movies. I am working on a similar project, and would love to get my hands on that script and works document for inspiration. Could you send it to me?

Thanks
hngtme

[Sal]

I loved your presentation at Quicktime Live. I think it was the best there. I had a question though. In one of your demonstrations you showed an Appleworks database being queried by Applescript to find Annotations for corresponding movies. I am working on a similar project, and would love to get my hands on that script and works document for inspiration. Could you send it to me?

I'd be glad to. Since you're not registered on these forums, there's no profile for you which would contain an email address.

BTW, I'll be posting the QuickTime 5.0 scripts this week on the AppleScript website.

Originally posted by Sal:
Thank you for that very descriptive reply. Can I use that example the next time I'm asked "Well, why don't they just write a Perl script?" LOL!

No. :-) That example code is far too complex. A better example is this (given a list of windows):

Code:
  @names = grep /Red/, @windows;

However, to answer your question, in Mac::Glue, you can do whose clauses.

Code:
  #!perl -wl
  use Mac::Glue ':all';
  my $finder = new Mac::Glue 'Finder';
  my @windows = $finder->get(
     $finder->prop(name => windows => whose(name => contains => 'Red'))
  );

It is not the best syntax ... but not horrible. A more Perlish way might be to mix the two:

Code:
  my @windows = $finder->get($finder->prop(name => 'windows'));
  my @names = grep /Red/, @windows;

Which to me and many others is very readable. YMMV. That one might have a bit more overhead if you have a lot of windows, though. But the whose() syntax is not too bad if you need it. Overall the Perl syntax is in some ways a bit more complex than the AppleScript syntax. You need to put operators between various words (like => or ,) and you need to explicitly invoke the object (like $finder) for events and object specifiers. This is in part because Perl was not designed for OOP; I would love to have something like AppleScript's "tell" or Frontier's "with" block in Perl (I actually can do one, but is a mildly dangerous hack with namespaces that I don't want to necessarily push on others). Anyway, the point is that the Perl syntax is a bit more verbose, but is very similar and nearly as powerful. There are some things unimplemented in Mac::Glue (like being able to "tell" an object ... you can only "tell" an application), but pretty much all of these missing features can be worked around, and if there is sufficient outcry they can be added in eventually.

Sal, I agree with you that AppleScript is for non-programmers. I, however, am a programmer. That's why I wrote Mac::Glue. :-)

(Oh, and sorry it took me so long to reply ... been busy ...)

[This message has been edited by Pudge (edited 11-01-2000).]

[shanepalmer]

Sal,

I think that it is great that you are taking the time to answer everyones questions. I have been skimming through the posts and your responses, so excuse me if this has already been asked.

After using OS X for a few weeks I have had to open up the Terminal application and type in some commands that I can barely remember from a unix class 7 years ago just to install a Unix application does not have a nice GUI installer. I am not sure what the best way is to phrase this question, but...

Will Applescript gain the ability to send commands to the Terminal app or to even just execute those commands without opening the Terminal app? For example:

Tell Application "Terminal"
execute command "tar -xvf myapp.tar.gz"
execute command "mv myapp ~/Applications"
execute command "rm myapp.tar.gz"
End Tell

I currently use AppleScript for automating the setup of new Macs and installing software with predefined preferences and settings. I can imagine for a the first year we may see many command line installations of software, and I can envision myself doing even more automation in OS X because of this. Adding this capability in OS X would help many people in my situation trying to automate the repetitive setup of Macs.

[Sal]

After using OS X for a few weeks I have had to open up the Terminal application and type in some commands that I can barely remember from a unix class 7 years ago just to install a Unix application does not have a nice GUI installer. I am not sure what the best way is to phrase this question, but...

Will Applescript gain the ability to send commands to the Terminal app or to even just execute those commands without opening the Terminal app? For example:

Tell Application "Terminal"
execute command "tar -xvf myapp.tar.gz"
execute command "mv myapp ~/Applications"
execute command "rm myapp.tar.gz"
End Tell

I currently use AppleScript for automating the setup of new Macs and installing software with predefined preferences and settings. I can imagine for a the first year we may see many command line installations of software, and I can envision myself doing even more automation in OS X because of this. Adding this capability in OS X would help many people in my situation trying to automate the repetitive setup of Macs.

Yes, you'll be able to execute shell commands via Applescript. We'd like to get this feature in the initial release but with so much to do, can't guarantee it will be in 1.0.

You can currently execute AppleScripts from the CLI. Type man osascript in the Terminal for details.

Originally posted by Sal:
Yes, you'll be able to execute shell commands via Applescript. We'd like to get this feature in the initial release but with so much to do, can't guarantee it will be in 1.0.

You can currently execute AppleScripts from the CLI. Type man osascript in the Terminal for details.

To simply execute shell commands would be pretty trivial. To make a full-featured shell interface would be much less so. You'd need to capture output from STDOUT and STDERR, you'd need to give shell options (csh and zsh and ksh and bash are not [most of the time] all equal), etc. If you are running Classic, you can get direct access to the shell with something like NiftyTelnet (you'd probably just need to ssh to localhost).

[Alex Duffield]

Originally posted by Sal:
There is also a clientside browser plugin called ScriptDEMON that will execute, on the client's computer, scripts placed in webpages.

isnt that a tad bit of a security risk??!!

Originally posted by Alex Duffield:
isnt that a tad bit of a security risk??!!

It depends on what it provides access to. JavaScript is certainly a security risk.

[Alex Duffield]

Hmm the last time I looked, Javascript couldnt move my applications folder to the trash, and empty it.

Applescript can in a couple lines.

Having a plugin in my browser that says sure, run any applescript on some webpage to run on my system without me first inspecting what that script does just seem a bit dumb to me...

And I cant see the point in using it to do swap images and other "in browser only" things, as that is all doable in javascript, and a plugin is not needed.....

Im I missing somthing here???

[Sal]

isnt that a tad bit of a security risk??!!

Actually the ScriptDEMON plugin is fairly secure. It checks the current page URL against an internal list of approved websites that are definable by the administrator. If the current page is not in the list, the embeded script will not execute.

The user also has the option to be warned and view any script that is attempting to execute.

Originally posted by Alex Duffield:
Hmm the last time I looked, Javascript couldnt move my applications folder to the trash, and empty it.

Applescript can in a couple lines.

Well, I don't know anything about the plugin in question, but it is certainly possible to NOT allow those actions from AppleScript. That's the point I was trying to make.