[utw-Mephisto]

So I guess no build in virtualization ...

[shinykaro]

Well this is awkward...

I just installed the Safari Public Beta on my work Windows XP machine and it seems that the browser can't render text within the browser that isn't part of an image, or in the actual browser interface. The drop down menus from the invisible buttons are also blank.

I actually think this is a good idea, just like with iTunes, bringing the OS X user experience to Windows folk through unusual channels. Still, a buggy beta isn't too impressive.

[shinykaro]

It's definitely very beautiful and sleek, but some of the "features" are not very feature-esque...

That said, anyone else see a hint of multi touch interfaces in the "stacks" addition to the desktop/dock? It's that fanning out of files and stacking them in 3D space that's expected to work well with multi-touch interfaces, so I'm wondering if this is a hint that Apple is going to make solid moves in that direction in its desktop offerings.

[shinykaro]

So, that was... exciting...

Anyone feel underwhelmed by the "top secret" features?

What about Safari moving to Windows?

[Geobunny]

I half expected to actually. One thing I did pick up on the live chat feed I was reading was a comment saying "No developers outside of the conference will get Leopard Beta."

Did anyone else hear that or was the person providing the feed trying to be funny/stupid? If it is true, does that just mean we won't get it today or won't get it at all?! If not getting it at all, then there's going to be a lot of furious people out there (myself included). It also rather goes against what's been up on developer.apple.com for a few months: "Leopard beta available FIRST at WWDC" - it does not say "available ONLY at WWDC".

[brokenjago]

I think people were just expecting too much. This rocks, so much, if ONLY for the GUI unification.

[StewBC]

Originally Posted by shinykaro 

What about Safari moving to Windows?

I wonder if Apple rewrote Safari completely for Windows or if they actually have a way (through cocoa/windows libraries) of compiling their cocoa apps for Windows? If the latter, they should release these to all. Doesn't seem fair to me that Apple can target Windows but that the Cocoa developers will need to rewrite their apps, should they decide they need to target Windows. I get that it's not necessarily in their best interest to suddenly have all the coolest Apple apps on Windows, but it does seem a tad unfair that they can make that decision but don't empower us to make the same decision. That's off course assuming these cross-compile libraries exist. Maybe they don't but I have a feeling they do.

Also not sure if, as a Mac user, I was supposed to get excited by the Safari on Windows announcement!

[Neo.cmg]

I'm confused. I've read and heard about Apple proclaiming that in Leopard every window has a consistent design theme, thus unifying the user-experience somewhat. I read on the live coverage feed over at macrumors it was stated there was no more bruslhed aluminum (thank God). However, screenshots that I look at over at Apple's website and pictures taken at WWDC seem to contradict both statements. Anyone willing to clarify what's being said and what I'm interpreting that to mean?

[Brian Live]

The features that were shown were pretty cool, although some were a rehash. I'm still looking forward to Leopard, but yeah... I was hoping for "more".

The Apple fan base has grown so much in recent years and the expectations for these events have gone through the roof.

[money69]

Anyone know where the WWDC video is?

[workerbee]

Originally Posted by money69 

Anyone know where the WWDC video is?

It should be waiting for you on the Apple website... in about 12 hours or so.

(At least that's what I hope: I want to see it too)

[brokenjago]

I think that this is by far the best release of OS X yet. Finally, everything has come together!

[typoon]

Originally Posted by brokenjago 

I think that this is by far the best release of OS X yet. Finally, everything has come together!

I'll second that!!! Leopard will be looking over the Vista in October.

[shifuimam]

Porting Safari to Windows seems like a bad move. As soon as a piece of software becomes popular with Windows users, it will be exploited. With someting like a web browser, trying to make it super popular is just asking for people to find ways to phish and swindle and exploit your users. Not only that, but I'm not sure that Safari offers anything that IE7 doesn't, except that "it's not Microsoft". Both have tabs, both come with their respective OSes, and I believe that both now have RSS readers.

I've not upgraded to Firefox 2.0 because I've been disappointed with it so far. But Firefox 1.5 with all the options in the world at your fingertips blows Safari out of the water.

A ZDnet review calls Safari one of Apple's "Crown Jewels". Some of you already know I'm not a fan of iTunes and iPhoto. Others swear by them. Could you really say the same about Safari? Is there anything it does that Firefox, Opera, Mozilla, or IE don't do? It seems like the main reason that Apple even released Safari was so that they could quit forcing users to use IE for OS X by default on their Macs.

We'll see what happens in the long run, but I'm just saying - it might not all be puppies and rainbows.

[brokenjago]

I think people were just expecting too much. This rocks, so much, if ONLY for the GUI unification. My dock just looks old and lame now.

We'll see what happens in the long run, but I'm just saying - it might not all be puppies and rainbows.

I was thinking more along the lines of ponies and rainbows.

[bearcat2000]

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

I half expected to actually. One thing I did pick up on the live chat feed I was reading was a comment saying "No developers outside of the conference will get Leopard Beta."

Did anyone else hear that or was the person providing the feed trying to be funny/stupid? If it is true, does that just mean we won't get it today or won't get it at all?! If not getting it at all, then there's going to be a lot of furious people out there (myself included). It also rather goes against what's been up on developer.apple.com for a few months: "Leopard beta available FIRST at WWDC" - it does not say "available ONLY at WWDC".

I agree. Pretty lame that my $500 is going towards basically nothing and now since it expires in August and Leopard was delayed, I don't get a copy of it. Stinks.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Is there anything it does that Firefox, Opera, Mozilla, or IE don't do?

Not really. It's more what they do and it doesn't — suck.

[shinykaro]

Wonder if anyone's working on compiling a complete list of these alleged 300 "new" features in the OS...

You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize my initial excitement was about the keynote itself, not so much its content. I'm really disappointed at the "top secret" stuff...

Everyone was expecting this to blow Vista out of the water - and granted, Tiger is already on par - but this is hardly a leap forward. It's more of a fancy hop. Other than Time Machine, which we've known about for some time, there's nothing here that truly improves or enhances the usability of the OS. Aaaand as far as the eye candy factor... well... the reflective dock is cool and all but... where's the beef?

[utw-Mephisto]

So I guess no build in virtualization ...

[nemanirc]

In the older demos of 10.5, iChat had a feature that would let me control someone else's Mac (with her/his permission). Is this gone? It is not referenced on the Apple web site. I haven't seen the keynote, so I don't know if Steve showed it. I was very excited about this so I could help trouble shoot my parents' Macs!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by nemanirc 

In the older demos of 10.5, iChat had a feature that would let me control someone else's Mac (with her/his permission). Is this gone? It is not referenced on the Apple web site. I haven't seen the keynote, so I don't know if Steve showed it. I was very excited about this so I could help trouble shoot my parents' Macs!

http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

[peeb]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Porting Safari to Windows seems like a bad move.

I think you're missing the point - Safari is the development platform for the iPhone widgets and apps (whatever). Porting it to windows means a much larger pool of developers for the iPhone. Browser usage is incidental, although more people using it will mean more designing for standards.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by nemanirc 

In the older demos of 10.5, iChat had a feature that would let me control someone else's Mac (with her/his permission). Is this gone? It is not referenced on the Apple web site. I haven't seen the keynote, so I don't know if Steve showed it. I was very excited about this so I could help trouble shoot my parents' Macs!

It's still there, just isn't mentioned. You can still see the button for it in the iChat screenshots.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Apple - Remote Desktop 3

That's intended for large scale deployments in an IT setting. The screen sharing feature of Leopard's iChat is for peer collaboration and/or assistance.

[k2director]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

It's still there, just isn't mentioned. You can still see the button for it in the iChat screenshots.

Big relief! I too was afraid the screen sharing feature had been dumped. Given the amount of remote tech support I provide my family, iChat's screen sharing is worth $129 alone.

[rubaiyat]

I feel disappointed but not unexpectedly so.

What I was hoping (against all previous experience) was to be disappointed in my expectation of being disappointed.

With all the delays and the "Just you wait"s from those excusing the delays I at least expected something from the "Top Secret" weapon. Turned out to be some IMHO unwanted eyecandy squibs. The non-Macintosh press has noted the Safari for Windows and moved on, "Nothing to see here".

My son, who has been hanging on desperately to buy a new iMac with upgraded software and Leopard, summed it up neatly. He's now just going to keep his money in the bank and keep on using my Mac with Tiger, till he sees a real reason to spend.

[osxpinot]

Where is the next generation Front Row? Resolution Independence? Where is the .Mac that doesn't suck? Where is the iWork that doesn't suck? Where are the Cinema Displays with iSights? There were so many things that could've happened that were taken up by repeats of what Jobs said last year. Perhaps I'm being to greedy, but at the point where they've been sitting on this OS for over two years, something is jacked.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by shinykaro 

Everyone was expecting this to blow Vista out of the water - and granted, Tiger is already on par - but this is hardly a leap forward. It's more of a fancy hop. Other than Time Machine, which we've known about for some time, there's nothing here that truly improves or enhances the usability of the OS. Aaaand as far as the eye candy factor... well... the reflective dock is cool and all but... where's the beef?

I completely disagree. There are many features that I personally will find incredibly useful in my personal daily use as well as my work use. Stacks, Quick Look, Spaces, Time Machine -- all will make me more productive and do it in a very sexy way, imo. Core Animation will turn out to be very cool as developers put it to really good use. Not to mention a new Finder. That alone is huge, and everyone and their grandmothers were begging for a new Finder. We finally get it and hardly anyone cares.

Leopard is going to be a leap forward, maybe not for every single person, but for the vast majority of people it will be. These features are really great and will make Vista look like a 10 year old OS in an instant. I for one am excited for October!

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by osxpinot 

Where is the next generation Front Row? Resolution Independence? Where is the .Mac that doesn't suck? Where is the iWork that doesn't suck? Where are the Cinema Displays with iSights? There were so many things that could've happened that were taken up by repeats of what Jobs said last year. Perhaps I'm being to greedy, but at the point where they've been sitting on this OS for over two years, something is jacked.

You are being too greedy. These things will come in time. This is after all the WWDC, which doesn't highlight hardware. Steve already said .Mac is getting a major overhaul. Just because it didn't come today doesn't mean it won't come. Besides, the fact that I can access my Mac at home through .Mac with Leopard is worth the price to me. But anyways, Apple just gave us a really good look at a killer OS with amazing features. Be patient and those other things will come.

[::maroma::]

After reading a lot of reactions to the Keynote, its plain to see that most people's expectations were way too high. Its always been this way with Keynotes, but it seems like its getting worse with time. It seems that the better Apple does, the higher the expectations are for any Keynote. I think that most people's disappointments are self inflicted.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by osxpinot 

Where is ... Resolution Independence?

I think resolution independence is a myth.

[nemanirc]

Originally Posted by k2director 

Big relief! I too was afraid the screen sharing feature had been dumped. Given the amount of remote tech support I provide my family, iChat's screen sharing is worth $129 alone.

I am relieved, too. Both my brother (in Los Angeles) and I (in St. Louis) do "tech support" for our parents' Macs, and the remote control will be a great feature. I am a little surprised it is not getting much mention on the website, though.

[shinykaro]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I think resolution independence is a myth.

No! The female orgasm - that's the myth!

/Will Ferrell

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

After reading a lot of reactions to the Keynote, its plain to see that most people's expectations were way too high. Its always been this way with Keynotes, but it seems like its getting worse with time. It seems that the better Apple does, the higher the expectations are for any Keynote. I think that most people's disappointments are self inflicted.

Apple creates the overly high expectations through it's extreme secrecy, heavy hyping and Steve's self-indulgence with "Boom!"s and "One more thing"s. Apple only announces shocking releases at these events. As a result, most people tune into these events for entertainment purposes and expect a shocking release every time.

The high expectations may be self inflicted, but Apple is fully responsible for creating the atmosphere that leads people to their high expectations. Apple also fully benefits from that atmosphere (except when stock speculators purchase stock prior to a SteveNote with the expectation of a big Boom!)

[osxpinot]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

You are being too greedy. These things will come in time. This is after all the WWDC, which doesn't highlight hardware. Steve already said .Mac is getting a major overhaul. Just because it didn't come today doesn't mean it won't come. Besides, the fact that I can access my Mac at home through .Mac with Leopard is worth the price to me. But anyways, Apple just gave us a really good look at a killer OS with amazing features. Be patient and those other things will come.

I'm sorry, silly me for being underwhelmed by Jobs repeating half of what he said a year ago on an OS they've been sitting on for over two years. Silly me.

[osxpinot]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Apple creates the overly high expectations through it's extreme secrecy, heavy hyping and Steve's self-indulgence with "Boom!"s and "One more thing"s. Apple only announces shocking releases at these events. As a result, most people tune into these events for entertainment purposes and expect a shocking release every time.

The high expectations may be self inflicted, but Apple is fully responsible for creating the atmosphere that leads people to their high expectations. Apple also fully benefits from that atmosphere (except when stock speculators purchase stock prior to a SteveNote with the expectation of a big Boom!)

Exactly. We always hear about how Jobs has half a dozen amazing top secret projects up his sleeve and we hear that Leopard has all these awesome top secret features that they can't reveal because MS will copy them.

There was nothing revealed today that was worth MS copying. Let's see, we have a translucent menu bar. Oh wait, Vista already did it! Then we have 3D dock. Who the **** cares? Also, who keeps their dock on the bottom. Real Mac users keep their docks on the side and it looks retarded with the icons just kind of hanging to the side of the 3D dock. Then, Piles! We have been talking about piles for years. A new finder? It's about ****ing time. We've been asking for these things since 10.0.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by osxpinot 

Where is the next generation Front Row?

Here

Originally Posted by osxpinot 

Resolution Independence?

It is. It's just not worth a keynote feature until we have true high-res displays

Originally Posted by osxpinot 

Where is the .Mac that doesn't suck?

.Mac enables you to fully access your machines from anywhere. I say that add in some extra value beyond the already invaluable syncing.

Originally Posted by osxpinot 

Where is the iWork that doesn't suck?

I am using it. Have you ever compared PowerPoint to Keynote? No comparison whatsoever. iWork is great for what it does: Easily create desktop publishing looking documents. I don't really see the suck here either. If I wanted a full-featured word processor I'd just use Word.

Originally Posted by osxpinot 

Where are the Cinema Displays with iSights?

Probably somewhere. It would be downright weird for my multimonitor setup though, so there better not be any added cost involved.

[:dragonflypro:]

osxpinot, I think many are are so looking for the 'shock and awe' that they are missing the zen-like simplicity and accessibility.

…this was not Macworld, but WWDC. The keynote sets the tone for the developers workshops this week.

And, FWIW, I love my Mac, but I use, no… I live in, my 3rd party apps. Apple cheifly builds the bed in which those are grown. If an OS becomes increasingly useful, to devs and myself, while furthering the platforms richness, makes it more robust for the devs, and keeps me from going "WTF?' …that is the OS I want. The same goes for my wife and kids.

IMO, Vista is just gratuitous XP XXX digi-porn. If you want a hex-dance, that is the avenue you are looking for.

T

[osxpinot]

My point is that the time they spent repeating things they said last year could be used to introduce stuff they haven't talked about before. You don't need to tell me what WWDC is, I fully understand. But historically Apple has always used WWDC for announcements. For better or for worse, I'm not sure. Seeing as MWSF was almost entirely iPhone, when exactly is Apple supposed to talk about this stuff?

[- - e r i k - -]

And FFS, if what was introduced today was Resolution independence, updated Front Row and Cinema Displays with iSights people would go: "WHAT THE F*CK? That's it??! Where's my new Finder?!?! We have been talking about Resolution Independence for years! Cinema Displays with iSights? Updated Front Row? Who cares? Zzzz"

[osxpinot]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

And FFS, if what was introduced today was Resolution independence, updated Front Row and Cinema Displays with iSights people would go: "WHAT THE F*CK? That's it??! Where's my new Finder?!?! We have been talking about Resolution Independence for years! Cinema Displays with iSights? Updated Front Row? Who cares? Zzzz"

Again, they could've filled the space that used to talk about Spaces, Boot Camp, and anything else they repeated.

[- - e r i k - -]

What were they going to say? "Hey, FrontRow...it's just like Apple TV now! Moving on…"

[CatOne]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Porting Safari to Windows seems like a bad move. As soon as a piece of software becomes popular with Windows users, it will be exploited. With someting like a web browser, trying to make it super popular is just asking for people to find ways to phish and swindle and exploit your users. Not only that, but I'm not sure that Safari offers anything that IE7 doesn't, except that "it's not Microsoft". Both have tabs, both come with their respective OSes, and I believe that both now have RSS readers.

I've not upgraded to Firefox 2.0 because I've been disappointed with it so far. But Firefox 1.5 with all the options in the world at your fingertips blows Safari out of the water.

A ZDnet review calls Safari one of Apple's "Crown Jewels". Some of you already know I'm not a fan of iTunes and iPhoto. Others swear by them. Could you really say the same about Safari? Is there anything it does that Firefox, Opera, Mozilla, or IE don't do? It seems like the main reason that Apple even released Safari was so that they could quit forcing users to use IE for OS X by default on their Macs.

We'll see what happens in the long run, but I'm just saying - it might not all be puppies and rainbows.

You miss the point. How are people who are developing web sites in Windows-only environments going to be able to test and certify that their sites will work well on the iPhone?

Well, given that the iPhone is running Safari 3.0, testing on a Tiger machine, or on a Windows machine, won't do the trick. But running against Safari 3.0, either on a Mac *or* on Windows, gets you the ability to see that your site will work well on the iPhone. So that's obviously what it's about.

[jszrules]

Anyone know what specific updates Leopard brings to Spotlight, aside from looking at other computers? For example, what about looking in folders that Spotlights currently does not search in, like Library->Printers ... will searches now finally include EVERYTHING?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by CatOne 

You miss the point. How are people who are developing web sites in Windows-only environments going to be able to test and certify that their sites will work well on the iPhone?

Well, given that the iPhone is running Safari 3.0, testing on a Tiger machine, or on a Windows machine, won't do the trick. But running against Safari 3.0, either on a Mac *or* on Windows, gets you the ability to see that your site will work well on the iPhone. So that's obviously what it's about.

Plus, as I posted above, Safari is the app development environment for the iPhone. Now PC users can develop apps for the iPhone without a Mac around.

[DigitalEl]

Originally Posted by osxpinot

Also, who keeps their dock on the bottom. Real Mac users keep their docks on the side and it looks retarded with the icons just kind of hanging to the side of the 3D dock.

Didn't know I wasn't a "real" Mac user and I've been here since before all the switchers and n00bs. So let me get this straight. The way YOU do something is the only way for real Mac users? You've lost all credibility with that ridiculous statement.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by :dragonflypro: 

osxpinot, I think many are are so looking for the 'shock and awe' that they are missing the zen-like simplicity and accessibility.

…this was not Macworld, but WWDC. The keynote sets the tone for the developers workshops this week.

And, FWIW, I love my Mac, but I use, no… I live in, my 3rd party apps. Apple cheifly builds the bed in which those are grown. If an OS becomes increasingly useful, to devs and myself, while furthering the platforms richness, makes it more robust for the devs, and keeps me from going "WTF?' …that is the OS I want.

The keynote was lame even from a development point of view. "Oooh, my apps will kick ass now that…uh…the menubar is translucent." The only bits that were really developer-oriented were Quick Look — which is cool, but old news — and the part about developing for the iPhone, which was really a bit insulting. "We realize you guys want to develop apps for the iPhone, and the iPhone does have a Web browser, so how about you guys just develop Web pages?"

That isn't to say I don't think Leopard will be cool. I'm actually looking forward to Leopard and I think it will be very good for developers. But as far as the actual keynote goes, it was mostly a rehash of stuff the general public already knew, and none of the new info was really compelling.

[Appleman]

I liked it all very much. Not to much new? Well, we have seen lots already, but they still are new, as we do not have Leopard yet.
A new Finder: looks awfully great!
Time Machine: looks much better than Backup, although I use it dayly.
Core Animation: simply WOW, and highly under appreciated; we'll see so much consequences of it later on, one of the best.
64 bit system overall: I can see the speed growing to Snappy™ ;-)
iChat will be very enjoyable and handy: yes, remote assistance is still there

The fact we knew already most of it, doesn't mean it is not great. To me Leopard is very, highly promising.

[Big Mac]

Where in the world was Resolution Independence? Has it been scrapped yet again?

This keynote seems like it was the one that got pushed aside in favor of the iPhone at Macworld. This wasn't a developer-centric demonstration by any means.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Where in the world was Resolution Independence? Has it been scrapped yet again?

This keynote seems like it was the one that got pushed aside in favor of the iPhone at Macworld. This wasn't a developer-centric demonstration by any means.

No, Resolution Independence has not been scrapped. It's just not a keynote-worthy feature until we have true high-res displays:

Resolution Independence
The old assumption that displays are 72dpi has been rendered obsolete by advances in display technology. Macs now ship with displays that sport native resolutions of 100dpi or better. Furthermore, the number of pixels per inch will continue to increase dramatically over the next few years. This will make displays crisper and smoother, but it also means that interfaces that are pixel-based will shrink to the point of being unusable. The solution is to remove the 72dpi assumption that has been the norm. In Leopard, the system, including the Carbon and Cocoa frameworks, will be able to draw user interface elements using a scale factor. This will let the user interface maintain the same physical size while gaining resolution and crispness from high dpi displays.

The introduction of resolution independence may mean that there is work that you’ll need to do in order to make your application look as good as possible. For modern Cocoa and Carbon applications, most of the work will center around raster-based resources. For older applications that use QuickDraw, more work will be required to replace QuickDraw-based calls with Quartz ones.

Leopard Technology Series for Developers

Besides, all apps have to be redone with vector graphics and UI elements to take advantage of it, which could be another reason why Apple really doesn't care to show this off to the public yet.