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Anyone here drive a VW TDI? (Page 2)
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turtle777
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Sep 26, 2015, 04:32 PM
 
I don't lend much credence to this Auto Blid article.

Several other sources claimed that BMW Diesel engines held up admirable compared to VW and other diesel cars failing emission standards.

As far as I understand, BMW diesel uses several combined methods of emissions reduction (e.g. SCR + EGR + NOx filters). That makes them expensive, but effective.

-t
     
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Sep 26, 2015, 05:26 PM
 
I think that they will all move to urea/SCR systems now, as that is the only method that seems to hold up over time. EGR might mitigate the NOx emissions at the cost of worse fuel economy, but it is not terribly effective when you get down to the levels required by modern emissions standards. The NOx traps are what many have used. They were probably easy to add to an existing engine, which is why they all added that when requirements got tighter. If you are designing a new engine today - and many OEMs are, everyone is moving towards smaller turbocharged engines - you should probably add a urea system.

Side note: The main health problem from NOx emissions is that they cause ozone, O3. A few years ago, Volvo trailed a special coating on the grille that reduced ozone back to oxygen, O2. The coating worked, but when they tried to advertise it as the car emitting cleaner air than what it found, they got in trouble with advertising authorities. In a fit of pique, the trial was ended. Perhaps something they should evaluate again? IIRC, it was quite cheap.
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turtle777
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Sep 26, 2015, 09:03 PM
 
Funny thing is, the VW Passat in question even has a urea SCR system. But apparently, it was programmed to inject to small amounts of urea, because they wanted only a small urea tank, rather than a large one. Stupid cost savings.

Now they're probably going to reprogram the software, but because of the small tank, you'll have to refill the urea much more often than regular maintenance cycles.

Not that it's hard to do, really.

-t
     
turtle777
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Sep 26, 2015, 09:10 PM
 
Off topic: OUCH



-t
     
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Sep 26, 2015, 10:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
That's not the same thing. That report compares the result from the current EU test cycle with one that the authors of the paper consider more realistic.
Perhaps I misunderstood the nature of the accusations then. Nevertheless, it seems as if the manufacturers are all optimizing for test cycles and such to an unnatural degree.
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turtle777
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Sep 26, 2015, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Perhaps I misunderstood the nature of the accusations then. Nevertheless, it seems as if the manufacturers are all optimizing for test cycles and such to an unnatural degree.
Yes, they are. But that's a known fact and not illegal unless you built in a software switch like VW did.

The thing is, the tests in the past were never modeled after real life.
Obviously, results from that will vary from real life.

-t
     
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Sep 26, 2015, 11:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Yes, they are. But that's a known fact and not illegal unless you built in a software switch like VW did.
… similar to they way some graphics drivers used to use special code paths when they detected a benchmark. However, from the way I interpreted what was written, the other manufacturers did optimize for the test cycles, which I read as “they implemented this in software specifically for the test cycle”.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Obviously, results from that will vary from real life.
I feel the discrepancy between real life fuel consumption figures, for instance, and what is achieved in the test cycles has grown over the years.
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P
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Sep 27, 2015, 04:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Perhaps I misunderstood the nature of the accusations then. Nevertheless, it seems as if the manufacturers are all optimizing for test cycles and such to an unnatural degree.
Well, yes, but... They do that all the time, for all tests. When we change a surface on the head restraint 2 mm, we do that because someone has figured out that some certification crash test comes out some percentage point better if we do that. It is very hard to say that all crashes are improved by that, or that one condition isn't worsened, but those tests are still valuable for two reasons:

1) over time, they move the average in the right direction. People survive crashes better today than they did twenty years ago.
2) you can compare different cars and get a view of which car is safer. Granted EURONCAP has gone a bit strange now that everyone gets five stars on the main test, and it needs an update, but for the longest time, you could compare similar cars and find that the four star car was safer than the one with two stars.

The problem with the emissions tests are that the tests themselves seem poorly designed. Load is low and the test itself is short, just to pick two obvious points. Those things probably mattered less before we had diesel catalysts - remember that the law about them is only about ten years old, and the first emissions tests are way older - but it matters now, and we need to make a better test.
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Sep 27, 2015, 09:33 AM
 
@P
Yeah, there are legitimate optimizations as being better on the crash test really means better in most accident situations. And on the other hand, if the test are bad but there are laws which mandate that you should meet certain goals as measured by these bad tests, this leads to optimizations along the wrong directions.

While we are on the topic, Mercedes has recalled 11,000 Sprinters to update the software for the exhaust system. They claim there is no relation to the VW scandal, but the timing is surely curious.
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Sep 27, 2015, 03:33 PM
 
Heh. I will note that if it is not a recall, there is no law mandating that manufacturers speak the truth about why they ask owners to come in with the car, and lying on those notes has been known to happen.
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reader50
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Sep 27, 2015, 03:48 PM
 
It gets better. A VW technician blew the whistle internally in 2011 (German) (Google translation). No record of anything happening. Not sure if the technician was fired, but they don't mention interviewing him/her. Only finding a record of the whistle blowing.

See, this is why internal whistleblower channels don't work. The problem is usually created at the top. So call the press and/or regulators. If it's the government doing wrong, just call the press.
     
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Sep 27, 2015, 04:07 PM
 
In theory, if the whistleblower was ganked, then they have two juicy bits to hand over to the press and/or regulators. The company in question committed the offense the whistle was blown on, and then aggressively tried to hide it.

Of course, there's the issue of whether the press has the balls to run with it (see: The Insider).

My knee-jerk analysis is if this disappeared, there were payoffs involved.
     
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Sep 28, 2015, 02:30 PM
 
Audi and Skoda reveal how many of their cars are affected by the Volkswagen emissions scandal, with over one million Audis affected in Europe
Audi has said that 2.1 million of its vehicles worldwide are affected by the Volkswagen emissions scandal, with 1.42 million of those cars in Western Europe.

The informaton, reported by Reuters, reveals that the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5 model lines are affected by the scandal. Over 500,000 of the affected cars are in Germany, with a further 13,000 in the US.

Skoda has also revealed that 1.2 million of its cars worldwide are affected by the scandal, but hasn't declared how many of those are within Europe.

These latest details come just days after German transport minister Alexander Dobrindt confirmed that Volkswagen’s emissions data manipulation software was present on cars sold in Europe.

The news followed VW’s admission last week that up to 11 million vehicles around the world - and five million from VW alone - could be involved in the emissions rigging scandal, which is currently focused on cars fitted with the EA189 diesel engine.

To date, it has been confirmed that VW, Skoda and Audi cars were sold with the engine and cheat software fitted.

Dobrindt told Sky News: "We have been informed that also in Europe, vehicles with 1.6 and 2.0 litre diesel engines are affected by the manipulations that are being talked about.”
     
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Oct 6, 2015, 02:09 PM
 
DMV people are dumb. Took Tesla in for emissions test, watched as chick who tests emissions spent 5 minutes looking for an exhaust pipe.

I tried to tell her, but she told me to "step off" and let her do her job. Okay then...
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reader50
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Oct 6, 2015, 04:08 PM
 
How'd she do finding the gas filler? Here in CA, they always check the gas fill pipe to make sure an old leaded gas pump will not fit into the hole.

Oh, and why did TN call you in for an emissions test on a zero emissions vehicle?
     
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Oct 6, 2015, 05:11 PM
 
It isn't in TN.
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subego
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Oct 6, 2015, 09:59 PM
 
Which state should we be laughing at?
     
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Oct 6, 2015, 10:15 PM
 
I wouldn't laugh at them, I just pulled up to get the car into the system, because it had to be cleared (since it's not "new"). The woman had never seen a Tesla before. I feel bad for calling her "dumb" earlier.
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Oct 7, 2015, 12:40 AM
 
Makes sense. I had thought they called you in.
     
OAW
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Oct 8, 2015, 12:32 PM
 
It would appear the IT guys are being thrown under the bus ...

Top U.S. VW Exec Blames "A Couple of Software Engineers" for Scandal - NBC News

OAW
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 12:39 PM
 
Software engineers are notoriously devious people.
     
Laminar
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Oct 8, 2015, 01:01 PM
 
Software engineers are not IT guys.
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Software engineers are not IT guys.
You trying to say that software engineers don't often make IT-type decisions?
     
OAW
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Oct 8, 2015, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Software engineers are not IT guys.
Information Technology (IT) is a very broad field with various disciplines. I've worked in IT for 25+ years doing software development. Perhaps when I said "IT guys" you thought I meant the more Help Desk or System Administration types?

OAW
     
subego
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Oct 8, 2015, 03:10 PM
 
I consider IT to be what the IT department does.

I imagine VW has an IT department, and the software engineers who program car brains are not in that department.
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 03:16 PM
 
Depends on how a company is organized. I've seen some companies where software development is part and parcel of the IT department ... and other companies where the IT department only manages hardware/network/communications/database infrastructure.

OAW
     
subego
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Oct 8, 2015, 03:19 PM
 
I'd guess VW is an example of the latter.
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 03:40 PM
 
I too noticed they're not finding the executives who ordered it done. The criminal investigation in Germany may do a better job. The internal one is a joke.
     
turtle777
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Oct 8, 2015, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Information Technology (IT) is a very broad field with various disciplines. I've worked in IT for 25+ years doing software development. Perhaps when I said "IT guys" you thought I meant the more Help Desk or System Administration types?

OAW
I have worked in Automotive for a long time.
Never EVER have I heard anyone refer to the Software engineers / development team as "the IT" guys. Even our janitor knows better than that.

IT guys are the network, infrastructure, Helpdesk, support guys.

-t
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Even our janitor knows better than that.
Yeah, take that, idiot.
     
turtle777
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Oct 8, 2015, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Depends on how a company is organized. I've seen some companies where software development is part and parcel of the IT department ... and other companies where the IT department only manages hardware/network/communications/database infrastructure.

OAW
Meh.

Give me just ONE example of a company who has software developers that develop for sellable products, and yet they STILL report to the IT department.

One is enough.

-t
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
Never EVER have I heard anyone refer to the Software engineers / development team as "the IT" guys. Even our janitor knows better than that.

IT guys are the network, infrastructure, Helpdesk, support guys.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Meh.

Give me just ONE example of a company who has software developers that develop for sellable products, and yet they STILL report to the IT department.

One is enough.

-t
Certainly ....



OAW
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'd guess VW is an example of the latter.
Yep, and car tech is always 3-4 years behind IT, which is why the big car companies get eaten alive when they add new convenience devices (easily hacked).
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Oct 8, 2015, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Even our janitor knows better than that.
Even our office "janitor" has the title Sanitation Specialist.
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turtle777
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Oct 8, 2015, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Certainly ....



OAW
Oh my gosh, you fail so bad.

Did you even READ the job description ? Or did you not understand it ?
"Designs, programs, tests, implements, documents and maintains computing applications."

This is NOT development for sellable parts or a customer product.
This is INTERNAL needs, internal software, databases etc...

-t
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Certainly ....

OAW
That all sounds internal.
     
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Oct 8, 2015, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Oh my gosh, you fail so bad.

Did you even READ the job description ? Or did you not understand it ?
"Designs, programs, tests, implements, documents and maintains computing applications."

This is NOT development for sellable parts or a customer product.
This is INTERNAL needs, internal software, databases etc...

-t
I'll refer you to your first post that I highlighted above. You made no such distinction. In fact you specifically excluded "software development" as an IT function across the board.

Originally Posted by turtle777
Never EVER have I heard anyone refer to the Software engineers / development team as "the IT" guys. Even our janitor knows better than that.

IT guys are the network, infrastructure, Helpdesk, support guys.
Now I said from the beginning that Information Technology (IT) was a broad field that had many disciplines (e.g. Software Development, Quality Assurance, Business Analysis, Project Management, Systems Administration, Database Administration, Helpdesk/Support, Network Administration, etc.). I also said that different organizations might define an IT department as having a software development function or not. I fully understand that for a lot of organizations the IT department comprises the helpdesk, networking, desktop support guys. Hence my initial reply to Laminar. OTOH I oversee an enterprisewide custom developed software application that runs the entire core business for a commodities trading firm. And I most definitely work for the IT department. At one point our Executive VP seriously considered selling access to certain portions of our systems to other commodities trading firms as a way of recouping the investment put into the development of that system. Had we moved forward with that would I suddenly no longer be a part of the IT department because it would have been an "external" system?

In any event, when I used the phrase "IT guys" I was referring to the field and not a particular organizational structure. Which you knew for a fact because you quoted my post where I made that very point. And at the end of the day "software development" is most definitely a part of the information technology field. Whether one is developing software for a back office system at a consumer goods company or a navigational system for the space shuttle at NASA ... it's still IT. Period. Full stop. Still don't believe me? Then explain why #5 - #7 are on this top 10 list. #7 being "Software Engineer".

Top 10 Jobs in Information Technology | Experience.com

That being said ... my overall point is that the VW executives seem to be trying to pin this scandal on some "rogue software developers", and quite frankly I call bullsh*t on that.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Oct 8, 2015 at 08:01 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Oct 9, 2015, 02:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I'll refer you to your first post that I highlighted above. You made no such distinction.
Yeah he did.

Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
develop for sellable products,
Internal support is IT. If you're making software that that runs on products your company sells you're not IT. Unless it's a tiny company those will be distinct roles.

IT is universally referred to as support, infrastructure, and helpdesk. Period. Full stop.
     
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Oct 9, 2015, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yeah he did.
In his very first post that I quoted? Not so much. He didn't use the words "internal", "external", or "sellable products" AT ALL. In his second post sure. But that was a very different statement than the first. They were by no means equivalent because the first was very broadly tailored and the second was very narrowly tailored.

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Internal support is IT. If you're making software that that runs on products your company sells you're not IT. Unless it's a tiny company those will be distinct roles.

IT is universally referred to as support, infrastructure, and helpdesk. Period. Full stop.
This seems to have devolved into a semantics issue. I laid out my position above in order to make my exact meaning very clear. That there is a distinction between Information Technology (IT) as a field and Information Technology (IT) as an organizational structure. And perhaps I was unsuccessful at that. But I am genuinely puzzled by your pushback. So I'm starting to wonder if we mean different things when we use the words "support" and "helpdesk"? When I speak about those functions I'm talking about the guys you call when Excel won't respect your wishes ... or Outlook keeps crashing ... or your PC keeps giving you the BSOD every 10 minutes ... or you can't log in to your PC because the password expired. Which is a very different IT discipline than "software development". Now perhaps when you say "Internal support is IT." you are including software development for internal use in that statement? And distinguishing that from software development for external use or sellable products? Or to give a more concrete example ... perhaps you are saying the guy developing software for an internal purchase order system at Boeing works in the IT department ... whereas the guy developing software for the weapons targeting system for F-16 fighter jets works in a product division? If so then I completely agree with you with respect to IT as an organizational structure.

But if you are excluding software development as an IT function across the board ... as both your and Turtle777's initial replies to me seemed to do ... and only including the "support, infrastructure, and helpdesk" roles as I described them above ... then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Because again I've worked in software development for 25+ years ... originally as a developer and nowadays in project/product management ... for companies in a variety of different industries. Half that time as a consultant engaged with and the other half as a staff member working in the IT department. So again ... with respect to Information Technology (IT) as a field/career/occupation then I will have to simply reiterate that software development is most definitely a part of it. Otherwise, you wouldn't see "Computer Programmers", "Software Developers", and "Web Developers" on this list ...

Computer and Information Technology Occupations : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Please clarify ...

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Oct 9, 2015 at 04:36 PM. )
     
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Oct 9, 2015, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
In his very first post that I quoted? Not so much. He didn't use the words "internal", "external", or "sellable products" AT ALL. In his second post sure. But that was a very different statement than the first. They were by no means equivalent because the first was very broadly tailored and the second was very narrowly tailored.
Look, it doesn't matter that you're both right.

It's clear that you meant software engineers, and we know that, within corporations, "IT" generally means the internal infrastructure and support guys, and outside of corporations, "IT" generally means anything to do with computers.

Now that it's been clarified, it really doesn't matter.

Everybody can stop the ****ing bickering.
     
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Oct 9, 2015, 05:05 PM
 
Yes, it's ridiculous that VW wants to pin this on a handful of overzealous software engineers.

It's not gonna fly.
     
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Nov 2, 2015, 03:29 PM
 
America's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) alleges it has evidence of further cheating; Porsche implicated in scandal for first time

America's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has claimed that it has found more evidence of the Volkswagen Group running an illegal defeat device on its 3.0-litre diesel engines, saying the scandal has now widened to affect Porsche.

The EPA alleges that VW installed software designed to defeat emissions tests on vehicles with 3.0-litre, six-cylinder diesel engines that were on sale from 2013 to date, and says NoX emissions on the affected vehicles are up to nine times legal limits. It has identified the VW Touareg, Porsche Cayenne and Audi A6, Audi A7, Audi A8, Audi A8L and Audi Q5 as being potentially affected. In total, 10,000 cars in the US have been implicated.

"VW has once again failed its obligation to comply with the law that protects clean air for all Americans," said Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator for the Office for EPA's Enforcement and Compliance Assurance.

"All companies should be playing by the same rules. EPA, with our state, and federal partners, will continue to investigate these serious matters, to secure the benefits of the Clean Air Act, ensure a level playing field for responsible businesses, and to ensure consumers get the environmental performance they expect."
     
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Nov 2, 2015, 04:23 PM
 
If true, this is extremely bad for VW. The previous evidence could be explained by them failing to meet the NOx requirements and cheating at the last minute to avoid stopping a launch that was already advertised. If they truly doubled down on this...wow.
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Nov 2, 2015, 05:40 PM
 
I bet you can get a really sweet deal on a TDI right now, though.
     
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Nov 2, 2015, 06:49 PM
 
Not in the US. VW stopped clearing guilty cars through customs, so their dealers are all tapped out.
     
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Nov 2, 2015, 08:37 PM
 
VW is still digging that hole...

-t
     
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Nov 2, 2015, 09:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Not in the US. VW stopped clearing guilty cars through customs, so their dealers are all tapped out.
You could get a steal in the used market. Trade-in values have plummeted, and many VW dealers are either refusing them on trade-ins or not honoring the pre-scandal trade-in values as promised.

They're still fantastic cars that perform well and easily beat their EPA estimated mileage. If you plan on keeping the car for a long time and were planning on getting a used TDI, there's not really good reason not to, especially if your state doesn't require regular emissions testing.
     
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Nov 2, 2015, 11:04 PM
 
Yeah, my dad is thinking about picking one up. But with emissions testing increasingly becoming more common and the VW scandal getting bigger, it just seems like a bit of a gamble that the cars will escape future sanctions of some sort.
     
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Nov 3, 2015, 09:46 AM
 
Where I live in Indiana, we don't do emissions testing (except in the Evansville area, for some reason). VW could easily dump their remaining stock of TDIs here.
     
is not
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Nov 4, 2015, 03:02 AM
 
Petrol engines affected…

VW says latest revelation could cost £1.4bn; petrol-engined cars also affected
The Volkswagen Group has been plunged into further crisis after admitting that up to 800,000 petrol and diesel-powered cars have had their CO2 and mpg ratings wrongly certified.

In a statement, VW revealed: "Under the ongoing review of all processes and workflows in connection with diesel engines it was established that the CO2 levels and thus the fuel consumption figures for some models were set too low during the CO2 certification process. The majority of the vehicles concerned have diesel engines."

It also pledged to "immediately start a dialoge with the responsible type approval agencies regarding the consequences of these findings". The statement also described the situation as a "not yet fully explained issue".

A VW spokesman has confirmed that the latest scandal affects Audi, Seat, Skoda and VW cars with what are described as "small" engines. Reports suggest that cars powered by the 1.4-litre four-cylinder petrol engine with Cylinder On Demand technology are affected. Further reports suggest that VW BlueMotion diesel models with three and four-cylinder diesel engines are also affected.

The company said it has set aside two billion euros (£1.4bn) to cover the cost of this latest revelation, although it cautioned that it would need to consult officials before fully understanding the legal and econimic implications of the discovery. It has not said whether it will compensate owners of affected cars.

In the statement, Matthias Müller, CEO of Volkswagen, said: “From the very start I have pushed hard for the relentless and comprehensive clarification of events. We will stop at nothing and nobody. This is a painful process, but it is our only alternative. For us, the only thing that counts is the truth. That is the basis for the fundamental realignment that Volkswagen needs. The Board of Management of Volkswagen AG deeply regrets this situation and wishes to underscore its determination to systematically continue along the present path of clarification and transparency.”

The VW statement also stressed that the safety of the vehicles affected is in no way compromised.

Meanwhile, the Supervisory Board of the VW Group issues a separate statement expressing alarm at the latest discovery. It said: "The Supervisory Board is deeply concerned by the discovery of irregularities found when determining CO2 levels for the type approval of Volkswagen Group vehicles. The Supervisory Board and the special committee set up for the purpose of clarification will meet in the very near future to consult on further measures and consequences. The Supervisory Board will continue to ensure swift and meticulous clarification. In this regard, the latest findings must be an incentive for the Supervisory Board and the Board of Management to do their utmost to resolve such irregularities and rebuild trust."
     
 
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