[J from MacSlash]

Okay, I run a graphics lab at my school and I have this annoying mac user in class (aka.macintosh). He bugs me about getting macs in the lab to run Final Cut Pro,Maya,and iDVD. His arguments are sometimes valid but macs are not needed in our lab which has all Dell PCs. I see no advantafe in a G4 Mac over a reasonably priced Dell system.

Apple almost went out of business a few years ago and have not been in relatively good financial shape, that is why we went to Dell over the mac. Also Autodesk gives us a free liscense because of state tech competitions that we won years ago. There is nothing on the mac that compares to CADD. This is a major concern.

AKA Macintosh also persists that Apple has the market share over Dell in education. This may be true but they do not lead the entire division because the rest of the companies like Compaq and HP make up 73%.

I also hate to tell you mac users that the graphics industry is not going towards the Apple platform anytime soon or ever. I would like Macintosh to know that in his time at the high school we will never buy more than 1 G4 for our labs.

Apple is a monopoly.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Pat Vernon:
<STRONG>I also hate to tell you mac users that the graphics industry is not going towards the Apple platform anytime soon or ever.</STRONG>

Very true... it already is.

Originally posted by Pat Vernon:
<STRONG>Apple is a monopoly.</STRONG>

Your teaching licence should be revoked... are you on crack?

[J from MacSlash]

Show me market share figures from the graphics industry that support what you claim Macvillage.net! I would really like to know what Macs are used for in the graphics industry and who uses them.

[J from MacSlash]

What facts do you have to support your claim that the industry is in Appes corner? Autodesk? HAHA.

[SkiBikeSki]

Apple Macintosh is the platform of choice of any designer i have ever talked to. Just look at the software that Adobe and others make for the Mac and look at how much better it performs on a G4 and on a P4. Also Apple never almost went out of business. They have returned a profit every quarter for the last decade. No other PC company can claim that, especially not now. Like macvillage says, that graphics community won't be going to macs, they already are on macs, and will still be on macs in the future.

[J from MacSlash]

What about Autodesk? CADD?

[J from MacSlash]

I want facts from you zealots. What if pc people read this,dont you want to present factual information? I guess you cant.

[spicyjeff]

Mr. Pat Vernon...as you said above, you work in a high school computer lab.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *cough* hehehehe Excuse me.

Ten of millions of users, and billions of dollars in cash with yearly profits in the millions, and the only company to ever ship user friendly GUI UNIX...Apple has nothing to worry about. Yes Apple could use some more CAD software, but this harbors back to the UNIX part...it will be here sooner rather than later.
Professionals that know the best tool for the job realize Macs are the best tool for some of these jobs. I think you need more exposure and a larger learned view of the world than pimple faced 15 year olds are giving you.

[FAerrorTAL]

I believe that your problem, Mr. Vernon, is that you are saying graphics are solely CAD and what not, whereas a mac user is thinking photoshop and the macromedia sweet, along with digital video editing.
Where are your numbers, by the way?
I bet they're not around, cause someone who says that Apple's claim of the #1 computer manufacturer in education is false because the PLATFORM is not #1, needs a lesson in critical thinking.
think different pat.
You can keep CAD, Autodesk, whatever, and I'll take my creative market. PC's are great for remedial work: Word processing, databases, CAD, whatever, but when you need something from the other half of the brain, turn to a mac user, you'll get it.

No advantage in a new G4? How about bettering people's minds by accepting more than one thing? I like my PC for some things. Word processing is great, there's nothing it can do that will distract me, and windows makes me want to finish faster. I'd also like to think maybe one G4 is enough to make the whole class line up to use it.

Monopoly? A market in which there are many buyers but only one seller? I'd say the computer market is not monopolized by apple. Why not make another unfounded statement? Apple may have a monopoly on the only computers worth buying, but that's about it.
good luck in your quest for conformaty. Keep those high school kids down, spank macintosh's yearning for more. Deny them their creative impulses. Give them CAD and a Dell. Keep that power of yours strong.
~Aaron

[Nimisys]

valid points both ways...

just to toss my two coins in...

what Type of graphics lab are you running? CAD or Photoshop (genericlly speaking)?

if your a CAD lab then your smart with the PC, as the G4 just isn't up to the task as well as a comparitive PC is.

If its Photoshop then its the other way around, while new PC's can run head to head with compparitive Apple products, they still held back by there color sync and lack of dedicated vector units.

technichly, simply put the PC's crunch numbers better than the Mac, but the Mac can do graphics better. if your running a mixed lab then you should get a mixture, or better yet leave each platform in t's advantaged job (CAD for the PC and Photoshop for the Mac)

thats the technical side, logicticly theres a few more factors:

whats apple market share again? 2.5-5% what makes the mac users 5% of the market mean they should have 100% of the school lab space? the rest of us don't count apparently

so in this regard is it better to inconvience the 95% of the computer users or the 5% that use macs? considering this board i already know the answer sure you can take files from a mac on to a PC and visa versa, but how many students know how to make a new disk on the mac that will work with there pc? BUT how many of the MAc users know how to make the PC disk work in their Mac? for a teacher i see a night mare here, as a lot more time will be spent in showing how the PC users how to operate the mac in such a way to make it compatible with their home pc than they would showing a few mac users how to make the PC work for their mac. this also brings up the Disk Issue... unfortunitly people still need removable media, and since zipo drives are not in every machine this means the floppy must still be used, which means a 3rd party solution for the MAcs as well. WHy is it nessary? because untill recently could you access iDisk on a PC? and most students don;t know how or can;t transger files back and forth through e-mail, nor do they have the lexury of a school webse --- er public FTP drop site to handle files. so the floppy disk will live on in the school system.

as for the OS, don't even start that argument... many do NOT like the MacOS... and for me it is the reason i will not own a mac, as MacOS doesn't work as smoothely and logicly as Windows does for me. ANd consiedering about 80% or so of the market uses windows, i am sure i am not alone in that regard.

As for your lab, i say make it 5% mac and put the right tool for the right job.

[Cipher13]

Mr. Vernon... it's quite a shame to see such a close-minded person, especially in a teaching position.

When you need to tighten or loosen a phillips head screw... what do you use? Why, a phillipps head screwdriver of course.

Now, when you want to tighten or loosen a flat head screw... what do you use? A flat head screwdriver of course.

Now, you mustn't look at Macs vs. Windows from a zealous, evangelical perspective... but one of open thought and as a question of efficiency.

Which is the best tool for the job?

Graphics, DV, 3D = Mac.

CAD = Windows.

Don't be so anti-Mac. Its childish, really.

I use whatever is best for the job; I simply find Macs better at almost everything.

(NOTE: Yes, the irony doesn't escape me of the screwdriver example... the Mac is the flathead. Draw your own conclusions from that )

[Nile Crocodile]

Originally posted by Pat Vernon:
<STRONG>Apple is a monopoly.</STRONG>

It's true. Apple has a monopoly over ... Apple stuff. WOW! Someone call the Justice Department.

[Scotttheking]

First I'd just like to say that I will answer your post in an intelligent manner, although you do not seem to show that. A teacher or other school employee should encourage creativity and free thinking, not force everyone into one viewpoint.
Just so you understand that I'm not just spouting off things I've heard, here is a little bit about me.
I was a system administrator for Macintosh computers in junior high and highschool.
I now am the system administrator for one of the engineering departments at the university I go to. I manage approximately 110 computers, all running windows nt4.
Now, on to your statements.

Originally posted by Pat Vernon:
<STRONG>Okay, I run a graphics lab at my school and I have this annoying mac user in class (aka.macintosh). He bugs me about getting macs in the lab to run Final Cut Pro,Maya,and iDVD. His arguments are sometimes valid but macs are not needed in our lab which has all Dell PCs. I see no advantafe in a G4 Mac over a reasonably priced Dell system.
</STRONG>

Final Cut Pro and iDVD are exceptionally good programs, both of which are Mac only. Maya also is a very good program. It is cross platform.
Why are Macs not needed? This is never stated, so I'll assume that there is no reason why they are not.
There are many advantages for a G4 over a Dell PC. First, the G4 comes with technology like a DVD burner, which is a great tool for students. Next, the machines just look cooler. In a school, it is nice to have something other then beige or black boxes. As the programs are ported over, you will be able to use OSX, which is an exceptional OS, and works very well in a multi user environment. Also, to kids, it just looks cooler.

Apple almost went out of business a few years ago and have not been in relatively good financial shape, that is why we went to Dell over the mac. Also Autodesk gives us a free liscense because of state tech competitions that we won years ago. There is nothing on the mac that compares to CADD. This is a major concern.

Apple never almost went out of business. This was a bunch of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) that was spread by a bunch of companies and ill informed stock analysts. Apple has been turning a profit recently. Dell has not. Dell has laid of 20,000 workers in the last 6 months. I would venture to say that they are more likely to go out of business then Apple is.
So you cannot run CAD on the mac. That is not a reason to get a few Macs. Having both types of computers, and giving students the choice of what to use would be the best thing you could do. This way they could learn how to use both.
My department is looking into getting some new G4s to replace some aging PCs. We won't be switching over to all Macs, but students will be able to use whatever computer they please. My boss also likes the idea of the lower power consumption of the Mac over the PC.

AKA Macintosh also persists that Apple has the market share over Dell in education. This may be true but they do not lead the entire division because the rest of the companies like Compaq and HP make up 73%.

The rankings are by company. Apple has the most machines in the schools. This is a fact. No company is going to sell all the hardware. You can group them as you wish, but then I would just suggest that you go out and buy 27% of your computers from Apple, and buy the market share amounts of computers from each other place. By the way, after you do this, I would recommend running OSX server 2, as it will make it much easier to integrate them all.

I also hate to tell you mac users that the graphics industry is not going towards the Apple platform anytime soon or ever. I would like Macintosh to know that in his time at the high school we will never buy more than 1 G4 for our labs.

The graphics industry is all Apple. If you are going into graphics design, you will be using a Mac. Software like Final Cut Pro and iDVD are just some of the programs that are used. By the way, they are Mac only. By the way, I'm saying design, so don't tell me that some company has a big render farm made up of Athlon Thunderbirds running Linux. I already know that.
Your last statement shows that you are trying to claim dominance, and are scared to actually listen. Why don't you sit down with Macintosh and discuss it in an intelligent, adult like manner? Right now it seems that you are just being oppressive, which is something that a student should never have to experience.

Apple is a monopoly.

Yep, of course. They have a monopoly on computers that run the MacOS.

If you have any intelligent, thought out comments, go ahead and post. Otherwise, please do not return.

Edit: If you do plan on staying, please make sure to get all your computers crunching for Team MacNN.

--Scott

By the way, I'm transferring this to the Lounge. Go ahead and find it there.

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Scotttheking ]

[- - e r i k - -]

OK. I'm going to make an intelligent post after all.

First of all, there are plenty of good CAD-solutions on the mac. In fact there's a whole website dedicated to CAD-design on the macintosh: http://www.architosh.com/

Second of all, here are some links that can be useful to computer-using educators (despite their crap design) :
http://www.mathdittos2.com/ednews/ http://homepage.mac.com/mac_vs_pc/Intro.html

And if your this biased as a teacher, please reconcider your profession. Please!

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: - - e r i k - - ]

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

LMFAO that anyone fell for this!

too funny!

[- - e r i k - -]

Oh f*ck... I just got this one. The a.k.a. macintosh refered to macintosh and his "my teacher is such a b*tch that I'll post his email-thread" (well, I think that was what it was called...).

Very funny

[BRussell]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
<STRONG>LMFAO that anyone fell for this!</STRONG>

No doubt. I'm sure this kid's HS teacher registered at MacNN just to say Macs suck. Right.

Macintosh? You there? Stop impersonating your teacher.

[Nile Crocodile]

Huh? What's this about now? Have I been dooped?

[Steve]

Guys, this is most definetly Macintosh. Just believe me...

Yes, you've been dooped.

BTW, Macintosh, quit bugging your teacher and let them do what they want! Let them be idiots if that's what they are.

[Scotttheking]

Hmm.
If so, then, GROW UP MACINTOSH.

[Cipher13]

While the lack of spaces after comma's is very Macintosh-esque, the rest of the post doesn't fit his style...

It's hard to believe its real, but... I suppose either way I wouldn't be surprised.

[gumby5647]

blah blah blah blah...la la la la your a troll la la blah blah go away Pat blah la blah

[macvillage.net]

yep, this can't be real. No teacher who works in a lab would argue the graphic industry doesn't use Macs, besides for EDUCATION that is the one industry that Apple kills in. Nobody except maybe SGI has a piece of it.

CAD on the other hand... give it 18 months, and maybe something will happen (just a guess of course)

[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>While the lack of spaces after comma's is very Macintosh-esque, the rest of the post doesn't fit his style...

It's hard to believe its real, but... I suppose either way I wouldn't be surprised.</STRONG>

Not only that but he posted a thread asking for the stat's that this "Pat Vermon" was talking about. Anyway, if this is real he should surface again, if not then we know it was Macintosh or one of his friends.

[MikeM32]

Pat Vernon Said:

Show me market share figures from the graphics industry that support what you claim Macvillage.net! I would really like to know what Macs are used for in the graphics industry and who uses them.

First off "Graphics" is a fairly broad term. There's video graphics, web graphics and web publishing, graphics for animation, graphics for print, publishing and advertising.

Your'e talking about what I call "drafting" more than "graphics". But yes it too is a sub-category of the over-all Graphics field.

It's true that a good deal of the above sub-categories offer an equal or better number of industry standard applications for different sub-categories of the graphics field for different platforms which they may have become more standardized on.

In many areas the Mac is still the dominant platform. These include (but are not limited to) Print, Publishing and Advertising. Visual communication in print will always be an industry. The mac is still a very dominant force in that industry.

Other areas like Architectural/Mechanical drafting or video graphics are (possibly) more dominated by the x86 based P.C. platform.

I'd think that you'd want to offer your students the correct systems they will be using when they go out into the real world to look for real work.

I can definitely say if you've got students seeking a career in advertising, publishing or the printing industry you'll need alot more than 1 Mac in your Lab. Not offering every student the correct equipment is really robbing them of an education.

That's not a school I'd want to go to nor could I in good conscience recommend anyone go to regardless of it's "reputation". But as you mentionned it's just a High School lab.

Maybe this is why a High School level education doesn't go very far anymore

Mike

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]

[runningdog]

AutoCAD is too outdated. Who cares if 'newer' versions don't run on mac. Even when it did run on a Mac (version 12) it had a crappy interface. If you want CAD on a Mac and/or pc then use ArchiCAD that's what my office uses.

i hate it when morons think Apple is a monopoly. You can't help but wonder if it weren't for Apple hardware that the MacOS might have been swept away on a common platform with Micro$haft by their dirty tricks that have swept away every other competitor (BE, GEOS, Next). i don't ever remember peecee users complaining about the monopoly of Amiga, Next, Atari ... etc. - manufactures that also made a machine for their OS.

[Nimisys]

i said screw autocad and i run rhino...