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Is Obama's Campaign Toast?
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Chongo
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Mar 17, 2008, 06:09 PM
 
ABC News: Obama in Cross Hairs for Pastor Remarks
ABC News: Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11

With the spotlight on Obama's pastor, and his fiery rhetoric, is his campaign over? I think not.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 17, 2008, 06:46 PM
 
Connection is weak
This wreaks of grasping at straws
Water under bridge
     
Chuckit
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Mar 17, 2008, 06:51 PM
 
I hear Hillary once dated someone who has since read a book about Charles Manson. Is this somebody you want to be president?
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Chongo  (op)
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Mar 17, 2008, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Connection is weak
This wreaks of grasping at straws
Water under bridge
Has the Clinton's fingerprints all over it. Strings were pulled over at ABC to get this run.
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I hear Hillary once dated someone who has since read a book about Charles Manson. Is this somebody you want to be president?
Kind of like the guy who once gave a speech at a university that does not permit interracial dating or accepts Catholic students.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 17, 2008, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Has the Clinton's fingerprints all over it. Strings were pulled over at ABC to get this run.
Um, first of all, so TF what?

Second, who pulled your strings to get you to "run" it? Are you in Hillary's pocket too? For some reason I find this thread quite grating. Someone write something calming.
     
lefty mclefty
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Mar 17, 2008, 07:05 PM
 
instead of running from the pastor, obama should embrace him! his core constituents are of the mind that the us needs CHANGE!
     
Ghoser777
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Mar 17, 2008, 07:08 PM
 
Connecting what someone else says (even someone you admire) to what you think, is not a good idea. Even the best people (and I'm not saying his pastor is that), say things that aren't "right".
     
Chongo  (op)
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Mar 17, 2008, 07:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Um, first of all, so TF what?

Second, who pulled your strings to get you to "run" it? Are you in Hillary's pocket too? For some reason I find this thread quite grating. Someone write something calming.
Nope, just a bystander watching the liberals eat their own. The left created this with "identity politics" Obama is a member of a "Protected Class" therefore above criticism. If one does say something critical, bam, you are a racist/homophobe/fill in the blank. Look what happened to Geraldine Ferraro. She had to leave the Clinton campaign for her remarks last week. The left sowed the wind, and is now reaping the whirlwind.
Ferraro leaves Clinton post after furor over Obama comments
( Last edited by Chongo; Mar 17, 2008 at 07:51 PM. )
     
nader2008
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Mar 17, 2008, 08:21 PM
 
yup he's done with, Hillary will use this behind the scenes to secure the Democratic nomination despite having fewer votes..thus opening up a run for Nader
     
Chuckit
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Mar 17, 2008, 08:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by nader2008 View Post
yup he's done with, Hillary will use this behind the scenes to secure the Democratic nomination despite having fewer votes..thus opening up a run for Nader
I doubt Hillary's such a poor candidate that she'd lose to somebody who's not even necessarily on the ballot…
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D. S. Troyer
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Mar 17, 2008, 08:59 PM
 
Black people can say whatever they want and get away with it.

Whitey is ****ed.
     
Buckaroo
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Mar 17, 2008, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Connection is weak
This wreaks of grasping at straws
Water under bridge
I never gave it much thought until I read the comment from above from Uncle.

ANYTIME someone running for office and this is the first thing they say (in this case a supporter) I realize, OOPS, maybe there is something to this issue.

I've been very busy this past week with school work, what's this all about?

What did Obama do or not do?
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:16 AM
 
He's had a 20 year close assocation with a far-left Black supremacist pastor, and he claims he never knew about all the disgusting remarks his spiritual mentor has made. Even the moderate left is taken aback by it.

I told you guys Obama is unelectable, but don't believe me.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Buckaroo
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
He's had a 20 year close assocation with a far-left Black supremacist pastor, and he claims he never knew about all the disgusting remarks his spiritual mentor has made. Even the moderate left is taken aback by it.

I told you guys Obama is unelectable, but don't believe me.
Ouch.

Is there proof that this pastor made any comments or are these just accusations?

Are we talking about one slip of the tongue or are we talking serious comments?
     
Buckaroo
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:19 AM
 
One more question, did he have any excuses, i.e. was he drunk or trying to do comedy at a club, or was this in public where others could hear?
     
tie
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Mar 18, 2008, 02:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
One more question, did he have any excuses, i.e. was he drunk or trying to do comedy at a club, or was this in public where others could hear?
Great questions, Buckaroo!

But really, don't you think there are more important questions? For example, in your last thread on Obama, you made up the quote, "There are a lot of people in the world to whom the American flag is a symbol of oppression. And the anthem itself conveys a war-like message. You know, the bombs bursting in air and all. It should be swapped for something less parochial and less bellicose. I like the song ‘I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing.’ If that were our anthem, then I might salute it." Don't you think you should be making some quotes for Obama in this thread, too?

"I am a terrorist who hates the US of A!" -Barack Mohammed Hussein Obama
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Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 04:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Ouch.

Is there proof that this pastor made any comments or are these just accusations?

Are we talking about one slip of the tongue or are we talking serious comments?
Seriously?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
ebuddy
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Mar 18, 2008, 07:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
He's had a 20 year close assocation with a far-left Black supremacist pastor, and he claims he never knew about all the disgusting remarks his spiritual mentor has made. Even the moderate left is taken aback by it.

I told you guys Obama is unelectable, but don't believe me.
This Pastor baptized Obama's children, married Obama and wife Michelle. Obama has been in attendance at this Church over 20 years and is close friends with this pastor, but claims he's not heard this type of rhetoric. Is Obama this racist? Heck no. He needs the cracker vote. It's fun to entertain quacks like pastor Wright to get the black vote, then pander to "transcending racial lines" to get the white vote. Obama is not CHANGE! Obama is just another full-of-crap politician. Trust me, this will bite him hard. It doesn't have to now, but it will be back late summer.

A loud-mouthed, racist blow-hard has ended Obama's run. I told you this Pastor was trouble over two weeks ago. I told you race would enter into this debate, but not for the reasons you thought.

Unbelievable. Michelle will likely return to being ashamed of her country.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Mar 18, 2008, 07:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Ouch.

Is there proof that this pastor made any comments or are these just accusations?

Are we talking about one slip of the tongue or are we talking serious comments?
They were very serious. They were very public. They are very recorded and very played daily in alternative sources of media. I know I know, usually we only read/hear about the Westboro Baptist Church and maybe Mormonism if a Republican candidate happens to be Mormon.
ebuddy
     
Macrobat
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Mar 18, 2008, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Connection is weak
This wreaks of grasping at straws
Water under bridge

Sorry, you fail. Connection is STRONG. This is the man Obama voluntarily CHOSE as his spiritual counsellor and mentor.

Obama has had a long and close relationship with Wright, crediting the pastor with leading him to embrace Christianity and taking the title for his book “The Audacity of Hope” from one of Wright’s sermons. Obama was married by Wright and his children were baptized by Wright. This is a 20 year relationship and goes DIRECTLY to Obama's judgement (or the lack thereof). Now we get to see how good Obama is at spinning.

This is NOT a "casual relationship" and is most certainly NOT "water under the bridge as A. Obama is STILL a member of this church and B. Wright is STILL teaching the same BS AT that church, even though he is titulaly "retired."

In other words, this is CURRENT, not history.
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Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 10:38 AM
 
People, you can't hold one man accountable for something another man says. Even if that man is his friend. Even if it's his family. Especially if the former explicitly denounces those things that the latter said. Just because he likes the man doesn't mean he likes or even tolerates everything the man says. Honestly, you don't have any friends who ever say things you disagree with? Talk about intolerant.

This connection is weak. The association between the two isn't from his campaign, or his political life at all. It's from his personal life. He has an associate in his personal life who holds unelectable views. If that was enough to taint a candidate then no one would be qualified. Get real, please.
     
Macrobat
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Mar 18, 2008, 10:46 AM
 
He's NOT his "friend" he's his PASTOR and spiritual MENTOR, to whose church Obama has personally donated more than $50K in the past year in order to help FURTHER his "ministry."

If the relationship were as tenuous as you are trying to pretend, why is Obama's campaign frantically purging all reference of the man from their campiagn and website? Why is Obama having to clarify (translation: lie about) his relationship?

Sorry, Unc, but you're WRONG.

This is all about Obama's CHOICES. A president CHOOSES those whose advice and counsel he seeks (the cabinet and advisors) - so this goes DIRECTLY to that level of his judgment (or COMPLETE lack thereof).


Funny how you and MANY others have been holding Bush accountable for this VERY thing for 8 years now, huh?

"Rove said this . . ."
"Cheney said ****."

Double standard much?
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Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
People, you can't hold one man accountable for something another man says. Even if that man is his friend. Even if it's his family. Especially if the former explicitly denounces those things that the latter said. Just because he likes the man doesn't mean he likes or even tolerates everything the man says. Honestly, you don't have any friends who ever say things you disagree with? Talk about intolerant.

This connection is weak. The association between the two isn't from his campaign, or his political life at all. It's from his personal life. He has an associate in his personal life who holds unelectable views. If that was enough to taint a candidate then no one would be qualified. Get real, please.
Skeleton, you're the only one who claims to think this isn't a real issue. You don't have a 20 year close relationship with a cleric without agreeing at least tacitly with the overall vision of said cleric. You're insulting the "intelligence" of your fellow party members by rationalizing this away.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
Funny how you and MANY others have been holding Bush accountable for this VERY thing for 8 years now, huh?

"Rove said this . . ."
"Cheney said ****."

Double standard much?
Those are POLITICAL associates, not PERSONAL. Do you see the difference? I have many close personal friends whom I wouldn't recommend for anything in my professional life. Don't you? In your personal life you value people for having good qualities. In your professional life you must also value people for NOT having bad qualities. There's not even any indication that the pastor's views on American social justice are what Obama likes about him. On the other hand, there is an indication that those views are one thing he DISlikes about him. Grasping. At. Straws.

edit: sorry I missed your post Biggy
( Last edited by Uncle Skeleton; Mar 18, 2008 at 11:08 AM. )
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 11:06 AM
 
The pastor of his wedding? The baptizer of his children? His spiritual mentor? Those are political functions? Wow, you must think even less of Obama than I do. Who are you kidding?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 11:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Skeleton, you're the only one who claims to think this isn't a real issue.
Chongo and Chuckit seemed to agree on that account.

You don't have a 20 year close relationship with a cleric without agreeing at least tacitly with the overall vision of said cleric.
But with EVERYTHING he says? Every single word? I take it from these articles that the man says other things besides what is quoted in the article.

You're insulting the "intelligence" of your fellow party members by rationalizing this away.
I'm not rationalizing it away, I'm saying the evidence is not damning. There might very well be an issue here, but from what is presented no one has demonstrated it. What they have demonstrated is that they're willing to latch on to the very weakest of connections to try to make something out of nothing. Again.
     
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Mar 18, 2008, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Those are POLITICAL associates, not PERSONAL. Do you see the difference? I have many close personal friends whom I wouldn't recommend for anything in my professional life. Don't you? In your personal life you value people for having good qualities. In your professional life you must also value people for NOT having bad qualities. There's not even any indication that the pastor's views on American social justice are what Obama likes about him. On the other hand, there is an indication that those views are one thing he DISlikes about him. Grasping. At. Straws.

edit: sorry I missed your post Biggy
Sorry, even by your own definition, until VERY recently, Wright was ALSO one of Obama's POLITICAL advisors, attached to the campaign. Hoist on your own petard.
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Chuckit
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Mar 18, 2008, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Skeleton, you're the only one who claims to think this isn't a real issue. You don't have a 20 year close relationship with a cleric without agreeing at least tacitly with the overall vision of said cleric.
And are you familiar enough with this guy to know the overall vision he preaches?
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Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
And are you familiar enough with this guy to know the overall vision he preaches?
I think his overall vision was made abundantly clear, and it's not something Obama is even denying anymore at this point (look at his speech on the topic just given). Wright is a hater of America, a hater of Caucasians, a hater of Jews, a hater of Israel, a Black supremacist, a believer in outlandish anti-American conspiracies, a proponent of Louis Farrakhan... All Obama can do is apologize for it and attempt to rationalize it away, because of all the churches that Obama could have chosen he chose this radical church and its despicable leader to adopt as his own. This is your candiate, Democratic Party. Enjoy.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Mar 18, 2008 at 11:47 AM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Chongo  (op)
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Mar 18, 2008, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Ouch.

Is there proof that this pastor made any comments or are these just accusations?

Are we talking about one slip of the tongue or are we talking serious comments?
do a YouTube search and you will find plenty of clips from videos sold by the church
from my OP
ABC News: Obama in Cross Hairs for Pastor Remarks
ABC News: Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11
ABC News
( Last edited by Chongo; Mar 18, 2008 at 12:02 PM. )
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
until VERY recently, Wright was ALSO one of Obama's POLITICAL advisors, attached to the campaign.
Link?
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:24 PM
 
It's a fact, Uncle. He was part of the campaign's religious unit.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:34 PM
 
I'm not denying it, I'm just asking for a link. I'm not an Obama supporter, and I don't follow who is or isn't in the campaign's religious unit.
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:38 PM
 
You're writing words in block letters for emphasis but you're not an Obama supporter? Interesting.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:47 PM
 
I am a supporter of the idea that taking quotes out of context from people who aren't even endorsed by the campaign is a new low for American "politics."

Besides, I was replying to a post that used caps for emphasis. Here's a little communications tip for you: it facilitates communication to use the same notation as the person you're talking to. If there's no good reason to change it, I don't. :/

Edit: I see there are no links yet. Is it a fact or isn't it? I'll take this opportunity to ask you to please substantiate your Farrakhan claim as well.
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 12:51 PM
 
Oh come on. Out of context? That's a sham argument and you know it. There was nothing taken out of context.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:02 PM
 
That's not my opinion, it's from the article in the OP:

Church member and University of Chicago theology professor Dwight Hopkins says Wright's message has been taken out of context.

"The whole point to Dr. Wright's sermons is to how do you make America a better America. If anything he's a true patriot," Hopkins said.
Now how about a link supporting your claims?
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:03 PM
 
And a Nazi would say Hitler is taken out of context, too. He was just trying to make a better Germany, right?

More importantly, do you have any ability to think critically on your own, or do you get spoon fed every thought in your head? You're basing your claim that he was taken out of context not on your own findings but on someone else's biased opinion. Good job.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:13 PM
 
This issue cant be just dismissed as a nonissue, but I dont see the evidence that Obama believes in the same crazy crap as that pastor. Also, this church organization is nationwide, and mostly white, so that just doesnt compute.
I think Obama is still quite electable... even if some think he is a Nazi
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:14 PM
 
Big Mac, if you want an excuse to back out of this topic, you don't have to actually evoke Godwin's law to do it, you can just stop posting

The claim has been made that the quotes are out of context. Refuting that claim takes more on your part than saying "nu-uh." Of anyone involved, the person quoted holds the most claim to knowing whether it was or wasn't. He was there. I wasn't, and neither were you.

I'm not saying he's right, and I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm keeping an open mind, and only going by the evidence presented. All I'm saying is that the evidence presented is highly ambiguous. It's those that buy this weak indictment that are being spoon fed.
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
This issue cant be just dismissed as a nonissue, but I dont see the evidence that Obama believes in the same crazy crap as that pastor. Also, this church organization is nationwide, and mostly white, so that just doesnt compute.
I think Obama is still quite electable... even if some think he is a Nazi
I didn't say he was a Nazi. I did say that attending this guy's church for 20 years, getting married by him, having him baptize his children, etc. suggests that Obama at least tacitly supports this guy's overall repugnant world view.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:19 PM
 
I never said that you said he was a Nazi. I just dont think this affects his electability(sp), as neither did his middle name (which you had problems with, for no apparant reason... well I could think of a reason, but anyways).
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
this guy's overall repugnant world view.
Saying there are problems with the US and the world does not mean you hate the US or the world. On the contrary, identifying problems is necessary in order to effect improvement.

So far I've seen no indication that the "repugnant world view" you've described is really what this man believes. But I have seen several statements by people who were at the sermons indicating that it is not. So we don't know.

But even if he does believe this, there hasn't even been the accusation that Obama also believes this. That's the weak connection. It's not even strong enough to say. Obama has explicitly contradicted it, and the only leg you have to stand on is to call Obama a liar. From your gut. A liar he might be, as might anyone, but with nothing but your gut to base it on, this is a non-issue.
( Last edited by Uncle Skeleton; Mar 18, 2008 at 01:26 PM. )
     
Big Mac
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Big Mac, if you want an excuse to back out of this topic, you don't have to actually evoke Godwin's law to do it, you can just stop posting
Lefties love citing Godwin as if it's some affirmative defense of a right to deny the historicity of the Nazi regime. Weak, insipid rhetorical ploy.

The claim has been made that the quotes are out of context. Refuting that claim takes more on your part than saying "nu-uh." Of anyone involved, the person quoted holds the most claim to knowing whether it was or wasn't. He was there. I wasn't, and neither were you.
So only those personally present at given events are allowed to hold opinions that you will consider valid?

I'm not saying he's right, and I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm keeping an open mind, and only going by the evidence presented.
No, what you're doing is denying the evidence and citing a biased source because it suits your fancy.

All I'm saying is that the evidence presented is highly ambiguous.
Sure, whatever you want to believe.

It's those that buy this weak indictment that are being spoon fed.
I thought you were keeping an open mind. To the contrary, you've drawn just as strong a conclusion as I have, and if you truly can't see that about yourself then the only word that comes to mind is "delusional."

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:31 PM
 
     
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
With the spotlight on Obama's pastor, and his fiery rhetoric, is his campaign over? I think not.
I don't see Obama winning the general election, especially after hearing his speech today. In what was billed as some sort of historic speech, he failed miserably in trying to smooth things over. He basically blamed others for his own racism, or for the racism of blacks, or for the .

Obama needs to have a discussion with Bill Cosby, Thomas Sowell, or Walter Williams to learn the reasons why blacks fail in large numbers... it has way more to do with fatherless homes and the lack of responsible role models than racism.

Obama said that "we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds". The problem is, most of us have. It's you and your people, Mr. Obama, who need to move on.
     
vmarks
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:41 PM
 
Have you even watched the videos of the sermons? They're pretty hateful.
The man is obsessed with Israel and the Jews as evil, and the US as a close second to that evil.

YouTube - Barack Obama's Mentor, Jeremiah Wright - Anti Israel Sermon

YouTube - Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, US To Blame for 9-11

He's also racially divisive and obsessed with race.

Democrat Taylor Marsh Broadcasts Live Talk Radio and Blogs Politics

So much for wanting to judge people on the content of their character, rather than the color of their skin. So much for MLK Jr. We've got Rev. Wright holding everyone back.
     
vmarks
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:42 PM
 
Have you even watched the videos of the sermons? They're pretty hateful.
The man is obsessed with Israel and the Jews as evil, and the US as a close second to that evil.

YouTube - Barack Obama's Mentor, Jeremiah Wright - Anti Israel Sermon

YouTube - Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, US To Blame for 9-11

He's also racially divisive and obsessed with race.

Democrat Taylor Marsh Broadcasts Live Talk Radio and Blogs Politics

So much for wanting to judge people on the content of their character, rather than the color of their skin. So much for MLK Jr. We've got Rev. Wright holding everyone back.
     
BRussell
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Mar 18, 2008, 01:51 PM
 
     
Chuckit
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Mar 18, 2008, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Lefties love citing Godwin as if it's some affirmative defense of a right to deny the historicity of the Nazi regime. Weak, insipid rhetorical ploy.
No, comparing everything under the sun that you disagree with to Nazi Germany and/or Hitler is a weak, insipid rhetorical ploy. Drawing such vague comparisons to the Holocaust is intellectually lazy and comes across as an attempt to brush off a topic without examining the actual details of the situation at hand. That's what Godwin's Law is saying: Nazis are brought up in almost every conversation because it's viewed as an easy out.

It's exactly the sort of debate tactic I'm sure Hitler would have loved. (See what I did there?)
Chuck
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"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
 
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