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New Lion preview available (Page 6)
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Salty
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May 29, 2011, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
It’s probably not the same issue, but when I open my MacBook, it doesn’t wake from sleep until I hit a key, which then brings up the login panel.
Oh yah, no I was clicking on the track pad, pressing random keys, hitting the power button.

Oh, other issue. Logging out and back in does NOT work. Every time I go to log out I have to force shut down. Restarting seems to work most of the time. But it seems to hang every time it's closing out of an account.
     
Spheric Harlot
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May 29, 2011, 03:33 PM
 
It's rather pointless to discuss bugs in the prerelease version here…
     
Salty
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May 30, 2011, 12:47 AM
 
I'm not asking for bug fixes, I'm saying they exist. That way I give an accurate depiction of how far the beta has come.

Incidentally they've either changed Image Capture or changed something it relies on because I was trying to scan something and it kept telling me that the desktop, pictures folder and even mail couldn't be written to.
     
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May 30, 2011, 06:33 AM
 
I'm not liking that new version of Mail. If I want an iPad-like experience in reading my email, I'll use my bleedin' iPad.
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Salty
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May 30, 2011, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm not liking that new version of Mail. If I want an iPad-like experience in reading my email, I'll use my bleedin' iPad.
You can turn it off, and the UI goes back to the old way. But it still keeps the significantly better looking buttons. It does make 90% of Mail's usage quicker though.
     
besson3c
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May 30, 2011, 03:25 PM
 
I still want to know what about this new version is "better", other than aesthetics.
     
Salty
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May 31, 2011, 03:44 AM
 
Well mostly what I've noticed is the UI. I have no idea if it'll actually handle sending mail any better. I get the feeling that 90% of Lion is just fixing UI stuff.
     
besson3c
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May 31, 2011, 03:54 AM
 
Sending mail isn't really its problem. I hope Lion includes more Snow Leopard-like optimizations and rewrites of things, particularly the Finder and Mail.
     
Doofy
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May 31, 2011, 05:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Well mostly what I've noticed is the UI. I have no idea if it'll actually handle sending mail any better. I get the feeling that 90% of Lion is just fixing UI stuff.
I've not used Lion, but in my experience Apple "fixing UI stuff" usually means Apple "screwing UI stuff".
Take, for example, the latest iPhoto - time was double-clicking opened the photo in Preview (which is the way I like it) and now all it does is open the photo in iPhoto... ...so now I have to drag the photo in question to the dock icon for Preview. ...which has slowed me down. That's not a fix, it's a fux.
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turtle777
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May 31, 2011, 08:09 AM
 
But they can further "fix" this by making a double click on a photo in iPhoto open in Preview.



-t
     
Koralatov
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May 31, 2011, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I still want to know what about this new version is "better", other than aesthetics.
+1. I’ve mainly been using mutt for my email recently, and seeing what they’ve done to Mail.app further reinforces my dedication to mutt.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I've not used Lion, but in my experience Apple "fixing UI stuff" usually means Apple "screwing UI stuff".
Also +1. Lion isn’t so much a fix as an iPadification.
     
besson3c
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May 31, 2011, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
+1. I’ve mainly been using mutt for my email recently, and seeing what they’ve done to Mail.app further reinforces my dedication to mutt.

Apple has a ton to learn from Mutt, Pine, and Thunderbird/Postbox when it comes to making a decent IMAP client. Not only when it comes to offering useful IMAP specific features, but in raw performance and basic behavior. I never delete messages and consequently have massive mailboxes, and I can't use OS X Mail because if I do my computer's CPU is practically constantly taxed by stupid attempts to sync irrelevant archive folders that I haven't touched in years, and the like. I'm giving up on Apple ever fixing Mail. There should not be a relationship between increasing the number of folders or larger mailboxes and performance diminishing.

The same is true for the Finder. I've given up on dragging files to and from network volumes, for instance, not causing all sorts of UI response issues and beachballs.

IMHO Snow Leopard was the best OS X release in quite some time...
     
turtle777
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May 31, 2011, 09:44 PM
 
I'm glad you're liking Postbox so much.

Maybe one of these days, I get the trial and do a thorough testing of Postbox2.
Postbox1 was really not cutting it for me.

-t
     
besson3c
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May 31, 2011, 11:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I'm glad you're liking Postbox so much.
Are you really, or are you just saying that?

Maybe one of these days, I get the trial and do a thorough testing of Postbox2.
Postbox1 was really not cutting it for me.

-t

PB 2 is much nicer than 1. There are still things that are not perfect about it obviously, but although I haven't looked at Outlook, it seems like the best of my available options. I'm not interested in paying for MS Office anyway.
     
Salty
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Jun 1, 2011, 02:39 AM
 
Honestly with most things I feel like Lion is really Apple fixing UI stuff. Though I admit that the latest iPhoto should have never shipped. It crawls worse than any previous version even on new hardware, and the UI is a horrible mishmash that's worse than anything they've done, even to iTunes.

That said, the getting rid of scrolls bars is great, though they seem to be creating their own areas in a lot of apps which is frustrating and makes their removal silly.

I love the new Mail it's probably my favourite feature. Full screen apps are still half baked though. They could be super useful but for now there's no way to enter and exit full screen mode quickly (IE no universal hot key like command W for closing windows.) Also I'm not sure if this is an external monitors thing or a thunderbolt thing, but my external monitor still tends to hang the boot process. (I realize this is a bug they'll fix but it's frustrating all the same.)
     
Eden Aurora
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Jun 1, 2011, 08:01 AM
 
I agree. The new iPhoto is terrible. and its more troubling that even though apple surely knew it before shipping, they did it anyhow.
I too am concerned about Lion. Full screen = who cares. right now it's practically full screen. and personally, i don't want my computer to work like an ipad.

putting all that aside, i am more excited about the updates to iCal, Mail, etc.
the programs we use every day! i just hope they build in support for the .mime file that's created (under certain circumstances) when micropoop users mail stuff.
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Jun 1, 2011, 10:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eden Aurora View Post
I agree. The new iPhoto is terrible. and its more troubling that even though apple surely knew it before shipping, they did it anyhow.
I believe that Apple are currently "out of sync" with the thinking of their OS X users and far too in tune with the thinking of tablet geeks. Essentially, too far up their own backsides.
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 1, 2011, 11:10 AM
 
I don't think you're really in tune with who's buying computers, these days.
     
Koralatov
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Jun 1, 2011, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Apple has a ton to learn from Mutt, Pine, and Thunderbird/Postbox when it comes to making a decent IMAP client. Not only when it comes to offering useful IMAP specific features, but in raw performance and basic behavior. I never delete messages and consequently have massive mailboxes, and I can't use OS X Mail because if I do my computer's CPU is practically constantly taxed by stupid attempts to sync irrelevant archive folders that I haven't touched in years, and the like. I'm giving up on Apple ever fixing Mail. There should not be a relationship between increasing the number of folders or larger mailboxes and performance diminishing.
They absolutely do need to learn from mutt and pine. They have some pretty big limitations — especially regarding attached images — but they make email *so* much smoother and easier. The speed and ease with which I can check and reply to my email using mutt is leagues above Mail.

Originally Posted by Eden Aurora View Post
Full screen = who cares.
I care, because I really *don’t* want it. I much prefer having overlapping windows so I can jump onto the one I want quickly, without having to slide between fullscreen Safari windows. That said, nearly everyone else I know who has a Mac (all Windows refugees) makes *everything* as near to fullscreen as is currently possible, so they’re likely to love the feature.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I believe that Apple are currently "out of sync" with the thinking of their OS X users and far too in tune with the thinking of tablet geeks.
There’s some truth in that. Lion feels like a transitional OS — a lot of iPad features creeping in, but keeping the option to revert back to a more traditional way of working if that’ what you want. What concerns me is the possibility that, two or three major versions down the line, the option of working like we do in Snow Leopard will be gone.

One other observation about the current Lion seed: power management seems much worse than it was under Snow Leopard. My battery life is about halved versus what it was just a few weeks, and one major version, ago. I imagine it will be fixed as it approaches GM status.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
There’s some truth in that. Lion feels like a transitional OS — a lot of iPad features creeping in, but keeping the option to revert back to a more traditional way of working if that’ what you want. What concerns me is the possibility that, two or three major versions down the line, the option of working like we do in Snow Leopard will be gone.
By that time, it really won't matter. (I hope. Don't believe that I'm not watching closely, as well.)

People pining for the old days will be like the thaloite niner-whiners after the release of Tiger. ("I can't be productive on OS X because it won't even let me adjust applications' memory allocation!")

So called "power users" have all too often completely lost the perspective on what makes sense to them because they've completely built their workflow around it, and what makes sense because it's actually a better solution.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I don't think you're really in tune with who's buying computers, these days.
Umm, everyone?

Let's assume that I'm right there and that everyone is buying computers. That's everyone, not just the bespectacled geek morons sitting in coffee shops in California feeling smug with themselves for reading slashdot on their iPad whilst slowly disappearing up their own backsides.
The World is not a Cali coffee shop wearing turtle-necks and saying "boom!".

The day you give up your B3 for an iPad emulation of a B3 is the day you can get off yer high horse.
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Umm, everyone?

Let's assume that I'm right there and that everyone is buying computers. That's everyone, not just the bespectacled geek morons sitting in coffee shops in California feeling smug with themselves for reading slashdot on their iPad whilst slowly disappearing up their own backsides.
The World is not a Cali coffee shop wearing turtle-necks and saying "boom!".
Those aren't the people who matter. They buy iPads because they've always bought anything new and shiny.

The real lump of customers isn't quite as visible: it's their parents. The actual everyones.

Apple's original slogan for Macintosh was "The Computer for the Rest of Us".

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
The day you give up your B3 for an iPad emulation of a B3 is the day you can get off yer high horse.
Most jobs, I DO give up the B3 for a clavia emulation of a B3.
     
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Jun 1, 2011, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Most jobs, I DO give up the B3 for a clavia emulation of a B3.
Now you're just being a pervert.
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Salty
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Jun 2, 2011, 03:23 PM
 
Having used Lion I can confidently say that the UI tweaks are 90% helpful. They need to add a shortcut for entering and leaving full screen for an app though. I can see full screen apps making Windows switchers VERY happy. I also think that the full screen paradigm is being done better on OS X than on Windows. In Windows you can maximize but still get smaller windows popping up over your stuff. In this case you're either full into that one app, or you're on the desktop. That said on a large monitor the animation can be a little eye straining.

iPhoto is not a good indicator of the full screen app paradigm. I seriously hope that Apple fixes iPhoto soon because it's a commonly used app by most people and the current version just looks like a bad Windows port.

What I'm really wondering is how Apple plans to integrate iCloud into Lion. Because as it seems now, there aren't that many tie ins beyond the normal mobile me stuff.
     
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Jun 3, 2011, 02:13 PM
 
If there's no longer a 10.7 Server and it's all bundled into one product, then does that mean server virtualization is no longer an option?
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Jun 3, 2011, 02:33 PM
 
Well, there's definitely some tinkering going on with the Airport stuff. I had major, major Airport issues with it DP2. My (2009) C2D MBP's WiFi would always fail to automatically connect with my 3rd party wireless router. However, if I made the computer forget the network and then typed the info back in, it would sometimes work. These Airport issues completely disappeared with DP3.
     
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Jun 3, 2011, 03:56 PM
 
Haven't read all posts, so this may have been covered, but does the esc key no longer work to exit full screen? And if so, why break this simple functionality?

As to concerns that the OS will end up being an extension of the iOS, I think that will happen because most people will have smartphones and tablets, so they may want to use that paradigm for their desk and lap-tops also. In fact Apple is once again on the forefront, out with the old rodents, in with the trackpads. Personally I am much looking forward to Lion, as it will allow so many more operations to be completed with my fingers just making small movements on the pad. I wonder whether Apple will upgrade its trackpad, I would already have one but for this consideration.
     
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Jun 3, 2011, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
If there's no longer a 10.7 Server and it's all bundled into one product, then does that mean server virtualization is no longer an option?
That's a good question. My guess is that virtualization will be a no go
     
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Jun 4, 2011, 02:04 PM
 
w00t! 10.7 fixes the iMac external monitor issue. With 10.6.4 my iMac worked fine with my 3rd party external monitor. When the 10.6.5 update happened, the monitor stopped working with the iMac. It continued to work fine with the MacBook Pro, despite STILL not working on the iMac even with 10.6.7. I've tried two different monitors of different brands actually.

I just booted up my iMac using my MBP's 10.7 install via target mode, and my external monitor works again.
     
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Jun 6, 2011, 12:04 AM
 
Escape still works. That said it's awkward as a hot key since it's all the way up there. But it doesn't bring you into full screen mode.

As for track pad upgrades, I think you'd be safe to get the Magic Track Pad now. Apple rarely upgrades their peripherals, often leaving them for years at the same price. The current track pads pretty well do everything a track pad could hope to do.
     
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Jun 6, 2011, 12:20 AM
 
One frustrating feature though is the, "This site isn't sending us new info, wanna refresh?" Option. It pops down all the time, and you HAVE to answer it. The default is to hit refresh too. It would make far more sense as a slide out warning like they do in other apps for stuff that's good to know but not totally necessary to deal with at the moment. Sometimes if you refresh a web page you lose anything you've written on that site. That's a VERY lousy "feature" and there's no way to turn it off.
     
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Jun 6, 2011, 06:55 PM
 
This thread is tl;dr, but anyone know if in full screen apps, if you are using multiple displays, does full screen have the option to have one display full screen and be able to work in the other display as non full screen, or is full screen an all or nothing proposition.

ImpulseResponse
     
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Jun 6, 2011, 10:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
One frustrating feature though is the, "This site isn't sending us new info, wanna refresh?" Option. It pops down all the time, and you HAVE to answer it. The default is to hit refresh too. It would make far more sense as a slide out warning like they do in other apps for stuff that's good to know but not totally necessary to deal with at the moment. Sometimes if you refresh a web page you lose anything you've written on that site. That's a VERY lousy "feature" and there's no way to turn it off.
This was a bug and I have yet to encounter it on the latest seed.
     
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Jun 7, 2011, 06:32 AM
 
Is there any news at all on

1) New filesystem
2) SSD caching
3) Resolution Independence

in the latest betas and/or WWDC presentations?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 7, 2011, 11:00 AM
 
It's a pity I can't upgrade from 10.5.8 to Lion without first upgrading to Snow Leopard...

Unless you know a way of course. Is the only problem the requirement to access the Mac App Store ?

I wonder if it will become available on disc ?

Wiki:
Lion would only be available as a download from the Mac App Store.
UK £20.99

The only prior version of OS X that supports the Mac App Store is Snow Leopard, implying that any machines that support Lion currently running Tiger or Leopard will first have to be upgraded to Snow Leopard, as opposed to allowing a direct upgrade to Lion.

Perhaps official Snow Leopard discs will be sold off cheap by Apple after Lion comes out !

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Jun 7, 2011, 11:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNUK View Post
It's a pity I can't upgrade from 10.5.8 to Lion without first upgrading to Snow Leopard...
I'm curious. Why aren't you on Snow Leopard now?
     
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Jun 7, 2011, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
I'm curious. Why aren't you on Snow Leopard now?
Just never got round to it !

Quite happy with 10.5.8 until Lion...

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Jun 7, 2011, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
1) New filesystem
2) SSD caching
3) Resolution Independence
I'm curious as well, especially when it comes to a new filesystem. It seems to me that Apple includes a lot of features that would work much better with a new file system (versions, for instance). How do they manage versions of a file? (I'm an absolute versions junkie, I use git for non-trivial text files on my computer.)

Also: how is Safari with WebKit2 working out?
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Jun 7, 2011, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thinine View Post
This was a bug and I have yet to encounter it on the latest seed.
Thank God for that; it was driving me mad. I also noticed that if you were downloading a file, and reloaded all the pages like it suggested, it killed the process of the download. That was *extremely* aggravating.

When you say “latest seed”, do you mean DP4 (11A480b)? Did you just pull that down by Software Update? It isn’t appearing for me yet…

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I'm curious as well, especially when it comes to a new filesystem. It seems to me that Apple includes a lot of features that would work much better with a new file system (versions, for instance). How do they manage versions of a file? (I'm an absolute versions junkie, I use git for non-trivial text files on my computer.)
I’m no filesystem expert, but that was my thought too. When I first heard of versions, I thought of DragonflyBSD’s HAMMER filesystem, which has baked in support for snapshots. HFS+ is long overdue for replacement.
     
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Jun 7, 2011, 03:51 PM
 
But doesn't Hammer lack other important features, especially when it comes to storage management?
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Thinine
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Jun 8, 2011, 02:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
Thank God for that; it was driving me mad. I also noticed that if you were downloading a file, and reloaded all the pages like it suggested, it killed the process of the download. That was *extremely* aggravating.

When you say “latest seed”, do you mean DP4 (11A480b)? Did you just pull that down by Software Update? It isn’t appearing for me yet…
You have to do a complete download, no software update.

No new filesystem, no SSD caching.

Resolution independence is now HiDPI. Support is fairly complete in most areas, but there's still little point. Perhaps in the Lion lifetime we'll see high res displays but not at the moment.
     
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Jun 8, 2011, 03:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thinine View Post
Resolution independence is now HiDPI. Support is fairly complete in most areas, but there's still little point. Perhaps in the Lion lifetime we'll see high res displays but not at the moment.
What does this mean, a straight doubling (like iPhone 4 retina display) or freely adjustable?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 8, 2011, 08:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thinine View Post
Resolution independence is now HiDPI. Support is fairly complete in most areas, but there's still little point. Perhaps in the Lion lifetime we'll see high res displays but not at the moment.
I run Safari in slightly zoomed mode because the pixel density is too high for my liking on my iMac with Snow Leopard. Without it all the websites and text look tiny and sometimes hard to read.
     
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Jun 8, 2011, 12:18 PM
 
Question to the people in the know: what other technical tidbits are there? The keynote was very consumer-centric. Some questions of mine are:
- How are versions of files managed? Is there access to other versions in the Finder?
- Any improvements in the kernel worth sharing?
- What's the progress on the transition to clang as official compiler?
- Can I use Time Machine with several backup drives (so I can have one backup drive at home and one at work)?
- What is the status of OpenCL, is it used more heavily in Apple's apps now?
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Jun 8, 2011, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNUK View Post
Just never got round to it !

Quite happy with 10.5.8 until Lion...
MacNNUK, SL is on Amazon for £20 so will save you a fiver compared to direct from Apple, I ordered mine yesterday . I've stayed with Leopard because up to now I've always got every other system update and was happy with Leopard on my MacBook.

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
solofx7
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Jun 10, 2011, 01:12 PM
 
"- How are versions of files managed? Is there access to other versions in the Finder?"

I am still trying to figure out how this works.
I know it is supposed to be in the OS, but I am not sure if it needs to be enabled or something.
I thought that it was tied to time machine, so I did some backup, but the "popup" that they show in the keynote is not something that I have found yet.
iMac 27inch 3.4 i7 16gb ram, MacBook Air 11 inch i5 128gb, iMac 27inch 2.8 i7 8gb ram, MacBook Pro 17 inch 2.66 i7, 4gb ram 500gb HDD Seagate XT,
iPhone 4 - Time Capsule 2tb, Apple TV - iPad 2 64gb
     
Art Vandelay
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Jun 10, 2011, 01:29 PM
 
It's separate from Time Machine. You access the file versions when you've got the file open. Click on the file name in the file window's titlebar. Apps need to be modified to take advantage of the version API.
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solofx7
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Jun 10, 2011, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Art Vandelay View Post
It's separate from Time Machine. You access the file versions when you've got the file open. Click on the file name in the file window's titlebar. Apps need to be modified to take advantage of the version API.
Hey Art - I still laugh every time I read you name in the posts

I have tried that, but it is not working for me.
I have been trying it from within pages with docs that I have changed.
I also do not see an option to enable this feature in Lion or in the programs themselves, like Pages...
hmmm...
iMac 27inch 3.4 i7 16gb ram, MacBook Air 11 inch i5 128gb, iMac 27inch 2.8 i7 8gb ram, MacBook Pro 17 inch 2.66 i7, 4gb ram 500gb HDD Seagate XT,
iPhone 4 - Time Capsule 2tb, Apple TV - iPad 2 64gb
     
Art Vandelay
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Jun 10, 2011, 02:18 PM
 
Like I said apps need to be modified to use Versions. Pages has not been modified yet. Try it with TextEdit. Also, it's not an option to turn on and off. It's always there with apps that have been written to use the new API.
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Doc HM
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Jun 10, 2011, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
That's a good question. My guess is that virtualization will be a no go
Nope. Lion server ($49) will also be an app store download, only you will need to be running SL Server in order to down load it. Apples hype about Lion server being part of lIon is really just a bit of baloney mixed with PR jazz. It's only available to Server owners.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
 
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