[natro301]

Every other dumb kernel has a GUI hurd,every BSD,LINUX all use gnome or kde why not port it to Darwin?

[dark3lf]

I don't think Apple ever intended Darwin to be a separate entity in an of itself. They are not marketing it like they did MkLinux as a standalone OS, rather, as the base of Mac OS X. You can get a full X server running from XFree86, then you can compile (you wouldn't actually have to port anything per-se) GNOME or KDE2 or Afterstep or E, but you might have to do a bit of tweaking, I'm not sure. Has anyone actually tried? Aqua is meant to be Darwin's native window manager.

[Scott_H]

Stricly speaking the GUIs that you see running on UNIX boxes are add ons to the OS.

[crazyjohnson]

I am hoping for 2 things. I want apple to include X Windows or something like that. So you can switch between OS X and X Windows.

It would also be cool to get X Windows to be the UI for OS X. That is have X Windows (running WindowMaker . . . .ahhh) display all your programs and stuff (instead of Aqua).

my �2

Originally posted by dark3lf:
I don't think Apple ever intended Darwin to be a separate entity in an of itself. They are not marketing it like they did MkLinux as a standalone OS, rather, as the base of Mac OS X. You can get a full X server running from XFree86, then you can compile (you wouldn't actually have to port anything per-se) GNOME or KDE2 or Afterstep or E, but you might have to do a bit of tweaking, I'm not sure. Has anyone actually tried? Aqua is meant to be Darwin's native window manager.

[natro301]

http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net/

[Spheric Harlot]

Didn't I just read somewhere on these fora that Apple has committed to bringing X support to Darwin?

That way, you could select between Aqua and X...right?

-chris.

[mitchell_pgh]

When I first saw this topic, I thought it was the most retarded topic ever, but you recovered very well with a well thought out questions (kudos)

I think Apple would love to have a X windowing system included with the system, but I'm sure they would want to make sure that it takes an Aqua look and feel to it. They want every variation of Unix to think of OSX as an alley against M$. Consider their marketing, it's for kids, it's for hardcore programmers, it's for servers, it's for gaming.

again, my $.02

That is the greatest problem I think...
You use a macintosh - like a PC - for just everything.
Small children are gaming, but most of them will discover, that they can do even more with there computer, just surfing the internet:
they become member of communities, like this one here, they read news, they download demos, their skills grow and grow.. so, everybody will ever use a mac for a lot of things, as webdesign, games, servers, writing, drawing, inventing, testing, practising, there is so much you can do.
With OS X you can do everything better and faster than on 9. Games (e.g. Quake 3) are faster, just because OpenGL, appz are faster and better to use, because of the UNIX kernel
if developers want to use it, they will ever port X window, so that everybody can use his gui. Of course, you need a type of high skills to use x window, as consumer, but many people could do. Mac OS X could be transformable in ANY way, so it would be no original system any more. That all is theory,but it could become truth...

[natro301]

Apple wants work done on darwin as much as possible because they want developers to work for free a GUI for it will only help

[bleen]

You can currently run X-Windows on Darwin, or OS X through the ">Console"

It is on Apple To Do list to get X-Windows running within OS X's GUI and through Quartz. ( http://www.opensource.apple.com//pro...rwin/todo.html ) I think by the GM of OS X it will be possible to load X-Windows in OS X without going into the Darwin ">Console" layer.

You can use Xvnc to run X-windows within Aqua (without rebooting into >console). See http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/~jsw/macosx_xvnc/ for details. You must first install XFree86, then Xvnc. After starting Xvnc, you can view the X-windows session (locally or remotely) with VNCViewer (http://homepage.mac.com/kedoin).

See http://www.darwinfo.org, http://softrak.stepwise.com and http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net for X-windows apps that have been ported to MacOS X/Darwin.

-Jeff

[dogzilla]

While I think that XWindows on OSX is a good idea, I think only think it's a good idea for *me* (and for others folks at my usage level). I think it's an Extremely Bad Idea to have XWindows be part of the standard distrib, much less the deafult windowing method.

Consider: there is no standard interface for XWindows apps (can you imagine an average Mac user setting up XMMS?); layering existing interface calls over XWindows would involve a huge amount of work; XWindows itself is a hack with serious underlying issues; and it's a huge resource hog.

IMHO it'd be a better approach to open up Aqua than adopt XWindows. But that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

You can use Xvnc to run X-windows within Aqua (without rebooting into >console). See http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/~jsw/macosx_xvnc/ for details. You must first install XFree86, then Xvnc. After starting Xvnc, you can view the X-windows session (locally or remotely) with VNCViewer (http://homepage.mac.com/kedoin).

See http://www.darwinfo.org, http://softrak.stepwise.com and http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net for X-windows apps that have been ported to MacOS X/Darwin.

-Jeff

[mitchell_pgh]

Good point dogzilla, we still need a majority of the Mac loyal followers, that only want to use it for simple tasks, to feel right at home. Turn on my computer, work on a few documents, send a little e-mail, surf the web, turn computer off, go to bed not worrying that the system isn't going to boot up in the morning. They don't want or need X windowing systems, a console, filing system, they just don't care... They just want it to be reliable. Mac OS was, but not any more (the architecture is somewhat outdated) Bla bla bla, my system hasn't crashed in months... Sure, if you only use one or two apps, but come on.

I think 30% of the problem with Mac vs. Windows is networking. It's just isn't as simple as Windows to Windows (simple enough) It kills me to see people drop Mac boxes because they can't hook them up to the network for printing... I have seen art departments get really nice Printers (high end color lasers) only to have them hooked up to the network so everyone can use them, then they get hooked to the corporate network, then they replace the Mac's due to networking issues! Talk about going full circle...

[gorgonzola]

I was wondering (earlier) why they didn't base Aqua on the X Window system itself (more customizable, more standardized), but then I read at Ars Technica that Aqua is actually a higher-level windowing system than X (or even Windows or Mac OS 9). That's why -- Aqua is fundamentally more advanced.

You know what's weird though? Type "javadt" (no quotes) in a terminal window (not as >console, just under a normal GUI login). In my copy of X, it has a problem coming to the foreground, but minimizing everything else gives me a pretty good look -- looks like standard X windows stuff to me!

Why would you want WindowMaker instead of Aqua? You have it as an option (which is a very good thing), but to have it be the default ... gak!

I bet that, in time, Apple will have finished that Darwin to-do list and have X-Windows running as a rootless client of Quartz, which will be very cool. You can do this with Xtools but that's kind of expensive and this way the support is built into the Core OS.

And Aqua is indeed Darwin's native window manager, just like KDE is to some Unices.

So what's up with javadt? Does anyone know why it looks like that (like an X app inside an Aqua shell, sort of)? Curiouser and Curiouser!

------------------
it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything

[strobe]

Before everybody beggs Apple to waste their time supporting X11 (which isn't going to happen anyway) consider that the overwhelming majority of X11 software sucks ass, and those which don't can be ported instead of recompiled. The same goes for GTK+.

Perhaps when (if?) GNUstep's appkit library becomes usable such ports will benefit X11 and OS X users alike.

[naden]

Many, many significant science/engineering/visualisation applications are designed for X11/Unix. The entire Irix OS was pretty much supported by it. Apple could make significant inroads into this field if it provided a rootless X11 server that provided native X11 calls to Quartz. I can guarentee Apple would find itself the centre of a lot of purchases by universities.

Naden.

[naden]

Just to clarify something:

Aqua has nothing to do with Darwin. You could probably get the Aqua interface on Windows if you mapped Quartz calls to the NT kernel.

Darwin is simply the foundation that Aqua sits on, nothing more nothing less. You can't get Darwin and then try and install Aqua on it.

Naden

[natro301]

GNUStep+DARWIN+X+ILLEGAL Aqua THEME= Open OS X
gnustep.org http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~henr0174/darwin/ui.html

[natro301]

ok im going to try GNU-Darwin ill tell you if it work from gnu darwin

[Angus_D]

well if you want to port GNOME or KDE to darwin then feel free. i don't think it'd be any picnic though.

X Windows sucks. It's massive, bloated, slow, based on really old technology, etc.
You can run it on Darwin (and OS X).

As far as running X Windows applications on OS X, one of the ways people have been investigating is porting GTK+ calls to Cocoa, so you have a library which when linked against on linux calls x windows and on macosx calls aqua/quartz.

[natro301]

true x can run on darwin but its hard im still working on it tell me how you got it to work Angus_D thanks

[Agent69]

Head over to Xfree's website, http://www.xfree86.org/. Xfree 4.0.2 now has native support for Darwin. You just download the binary package, decompress it, and run a shell script that installs it for you. (This probably works in Mac OS X also).

Another good source of info for Darwin is http://www.darwinfo.org/. This site has everything, from NetInfo commands for adding users to setting up the network. It is probably the best Darwin site going, right now.

Agent69

[IamBob]

You know what's weird though? Type "javadt" (no quotes) in a terminal window (not as >console, just under a normal GUI login).

Sorry to be the one to bring the bad news but...that's Swing you see. 100% Java.

[Geobunny]

Originally posted by IamBob:
Sorry to be the one to bring the bad news but...that's [javadt] Swing you see. 100% Java.

So why then don't you have to type "java javadt"?


------------------
Shh! Be vewy, vewy qwiewet! I'm hunting wuntime ewwors