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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Conservatives, what do you have issues with on your side?

Conservatives, what do you have issues with on your side?
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iomatic
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Apr 10, 2010, 04:39 PM
 
Just as the question states, what are the real problems on your side that really bug you, or could cause a real rift in the Republican party?

This is an honest inquisition looking for some real self-criticism with the broad spectrum that is the Right in the US.

Same questions should be posed to the Left.
     
torsoboy
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Apr 10, 2010, 05:22 PM
 
Sarah Palin. I have no idea why ANYONE would support her for ANY government office.
     
smacintush
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Apr 11, 2010, 09:13 AM
 
I'm not a conservative but most here think I am, and I most certainly don't identify with the idiots on the left we have in office these days…so I'll bite.

Abortion. It's one thing to believe that abortion should be illegal, but this stupid idea that abortions are somehow destroying our society is well…stupid.

Gay marriage. Funny how people should be free to do what they want with their own personal lives, and government needs to stop trying to engage in "social engineering"…unless you are gay and wanna get married.

Abstinence only education. Pragmatism is sorely needed in our society. People run around yelling about what "needs to be done" (when usually nothing needs to be done) and when their solutions don't work, what do they do? Go into a state of denial and yell louder about how their programs are needed. This incidentally is a failing of both sides, but is glaringly apparent with conservatives on this issue.

Prayer in schools/ID. Funny how when liberals/socialists teach leftist viewpoints in school it's "indoctrination" but when they want prayer to be allowed in a place where there is no reason to have it, or religious beliefs to be taught as "theories" that's not indoctrination. It's "freedom". Be free somewhere else. Schools is for learning not praying and not intellectual regression.

Censorship. Similar to abortion. If you think that society is going to degrade into a irredeemable pit of sin because someone sees a boob on TV or hears the...*gasp*..."F" word (I can't even SAY it it's so horrible) then go ahead and hit yourself in the head with a tackhammer 'cuz you are a retard. </gratuitous Tommy Boy reference>

That's all I got for now. Tired. Must sleep.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
besson3c
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Apr 11, 2010, 12:14 PM
 
smacintush: how about the war on drugs?
     
subego
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Apr 11, 2010, 12:22 PM
 
I'm not particularly conservative either, but definitely right-wing.

smac did a good job of covering things, which I would say all fall under the rubric of social conservatism, and are things I don't like.

The war on drugs and Sarah Palin I'd say also fall in the same category, both in terms of social conservatism, and me no likey.
     
besson3c
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Apr 11, 2010, 12:40 PM
 
I've been actually mulling over all of this lately...

Typically when you map out somebody's political ideology you have the traditional social and economic axises. However, these days it seems like there is a tremendous amount of conflation. You have a lot of moderate dudes like some of the above posters who are not socially conservative but more economically conservative, and you also seem to have a lot of people that seem to be against Obama on economic issues *because* of their feelings on social issues. That is, they don't really have an intellectual handle on these issues, but think they do because the starting place with them relates to some social issue they care deeply about, whether it be abortion, gay issues, and assortment of other sort of general feelings about Obama not being within their comfort zone in terms of who he is and how people feel he may vote on particular social issues.

In other words, has social conservatism largely become an extension of economic conservatism? I.e. you can be conservative, and you can be even further down the spectrum by also being socially conservative? I know that there are a ton of exceptions here, but I'm thinking that the two axis thing doesn't seem to work these days, as we all know many people that will say in a heartbeat that they are strong conservatives yet have serious problems with the conservatives on social issues, or perhaps the reverse. Using this political ideology mapping thing, wouldn't this make them more moderate than firmly conservative like they self-identify?
     
subego
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Apr 11, 2010, 01:02 PM
 
I think you can take part of your answer from my refusal to self-identify as a conservative.

Of course, I would place most of the things smac listed as government interference, which would put them on the left side of the scale. This assumes one is trying to make a consistent scale, rather than trying to map the scale based on the wonky ways politicians identify themselves.
     
turtle777
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Apr 11, 2010, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by iomatic View Post
Just as the question states, what are the real problems on your side that really bug you, or could cause a real rift in the Republican party?
Untrustworthy, greedy, retarded politicians.

Really, same problems as the Democrats have.

We need to nuke DC and start from scratch.
Not that it would prevent from the same sh!t developing all over, but at least it'll be a fresh start for a while. The current political class is a useless leech on our country.

-t
     
Doofy
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Apr 11, 2010, 03:08 PM
 
@ Bess & Subego.
Yes, there is a line. It looks like this:

Statism <-------------> Freedom.

It's essentially the top left to bottom right diagonal on the standard political compass.
Which translates as such:

Lefties/Barry/etc. <-----------> Conservatives <-----------> Libertarians.

So, conservatives are actually centrists. Some state control, but only as long as it's their kind of state control.
The sooner you boys realise that Uncle Doof is right about this (and while you're at it figure out that he is actually a genius), the better.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 11, 2010, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
We need to nuke DC and start from scratch.
Not that it would prevent from the same sh!t developing all over, but at least it'll be a fresh start for a while. The current political class is a useless leech on our country.

-t
I don't know that it would take more than 2 political terms for the same sh!t to redevelop. People who *are* trustworthy and aren't greedy or retarded have zero interest in political leadership.
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 11, 2010, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
@ Bess & Subego.
Yes, there is a line. It looks like this:

Statism <-------------> Freedom.

It's essentially the top left to bottom right diagonal on the standard political compass.
Which translates as such:

Lefties/Barry/etc. <-----------> Conservatives <-----------> Libertarians.

So, conservatives are actually centrists. Some state control, but only as long as it's their kind of state control.
The sooner you boys realise that Uncle Doof is right about this (and while you're at it figure out that he is actually a genius), the better.
You've left off a section of the continuum in order to fit your argument. There are most certainly political perspectives further to the Left than "Lefties/Barry/etc.", putting the centre *between* the "Lefties" and the Conservatives.

Communists <-----------> Lefties/Barry/etc. <-----------> Conservatives <-----------> Libertarians.
     
subego
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Apr 11, 2010, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
@ Bess & Subego.
Yes, there is a line. It looks like this:

Statism <-------------> Freedom.

It's essentially the top left to bottom right diagonal on the standard political compass.
Which translates as such:

Lefties/Barry/etc. <-----------> Conservatives <-----------> Libertarians.

So, conservatives are actually centrists. Some state control, but only as long as it's their kind of state control.
The sooner you boys realise that Uncle Doof is right about this (and while you're at it figure out that he is actually a genius), the better.
Well, it's not really an original idea, but yeah. That's why I was placing smac's examples on the left side of the axis.
     
iomatic  (op)
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Apr 11, 2010, 05:51 PM
 
I guess I'd fall into the economically conservative, socially liberal part of the quadrant, and totally relate to all the comments.
     
Doofy
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Apr 11, 2010, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
You've left off a section of the continuum in order to fit your argument. There are most certainly political perspectives further to the Left than "Lefties/Barry/etc.", putting the centre *between* the "Lefties" and the Conservatives.
No.

And I'm not arguing... ...I'm telling you guys how things are.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Communists/Lefties/Barry/etc. <-----------> Conservatives <-----------> Libertarians.
Fixed.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
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Apr 11, 2010, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I don't know that it would take more than 2 political terms for the same sh!t to redevelop. People who *are* trustworthy and aren't greedy or retarded have zero interest in political leadership.
This be a truth.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 11, 2010, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Fixed.
lol! You and I both know that there is a *massive* span between Obama and Communism. When he's equalized all wages and nationalized all industry, *then* we can talk.
     
hyteckit
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Apr 11, 2010, 07:38 PM
 
Freedom <-------------> Fascism

Libertarians <-----------> Liberals <-----------> Conservatives
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
turtle777
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Apr 11, 2010, 07:53 PM
 
As always, hyteckit's posts are full of shit and lies, even in his sig he can't tell the truth. Sad.

-t
     
hyteckit
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Apr 11, 2010, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
As always, hyteckit's posts are full of shit and lies, even in his sig he can't tell the truth. Sad.

-t
Well, you are full of shit and flies.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Apr 11, 2010, 08:50 PM
 
Pot
-----
Conservatives - make it illegal
Liberals - make it legal, regulate it, and tax it
Libertarians - make it legal


Prostitution
-----------
Conservatives - make it illegal
Liberals - make it legal, regulate it, and tax it
Libertarians - make it legal


Gay Marriages
-------------
Conservatives - make it illegal
Liberals - make it legal, regulate it, and tax it
Libertarians - none of my business


Abortion
-----------
Conservatives - make it illegal
Liberals - make it legal, regulate it, and tax it
Libertarians - make it legal
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Captain Obvious
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Apr 11, 2010, 10:01 PM
 
Abortion
Its pointless to over regulate it. That will only affect the poor who already have more children than they can afford and put further strains on our social system. Abortion clinics next to every payday load store I say.

Birth control.
Same as above. Teach abstinence all you want but let's be realistic.
However, condoms aren't enough. If you are a person on welfare, living in subsidized or public housing, and have a criminal record your ass should be filled to the brim with Norplant.

Immigration reform
Opposition to it is not really a conservative only position. In fact several of them were on the correct side of the issue once, like GWB and McCain.
Our nation needs the labor. Its impractical and impossible to consider finding and then shipping millions of people out of the country. Building walls is symbolic not effective and a giant waste of money. And quite honestly proper reform isn't ever going to come from the Democrats.

Right to life: Terri Schiavo
unplug the vegetables

Barack Obama: Four more years of the Carter Presidency
     
subego
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Apr 11, 2010, 10:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Freedom <-------------> Fascism

Libertarians <-----------> Liberals <-----------> Conservatives
Where do communists fit on this scale?
     
finboy
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Apr 11, 2010, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, it's not really an original idea, but yeah. That's why I was placing smac's examples on the left side of the axis.
I've always thought that the two ends of scale touched, with Communism on one end and militias/fundamentalists on the other. Both groups believe in the abdication of personal responsibility, one to the state and the other to God/Patriotism/etc.

I especially think about this when I see Lefties indoctrinating the populace and the Fundies pushing the same (no intrusion of external ideas).
     
subego
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Apr 12, 2010, 12:14 AM
 
I've thought similar things. There's not a whole lot of difference between, say, a Kropotkin style communist, and a hardcore, libertarian, anarcho-capitalist type.

They certainly have more in common than either of them have with the center.
     
Chongo
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Apr 12, 2010, 12:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Freedom <-------------> Fascism

Libertarians <-----------> Liberals <-----------> Conservatives
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Where do communists fit on this scale?
it's more like this:
From Advocates for Self-Government - Libertarian Education

their test http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.htm

Left (Liberal)
Liberals usually embrace freedom of choice in personal matters,
but tend to support significant government control of the economy.
They generally support a government-funded "safety net" to help
the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation of business.
Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations, defend civil liberties
and free expression, support government action to promote equality,
and tolerate diverse lifestyles.

Centrist
Centrists espouse a "middle ground" regarding government control
of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on the issue,
they sometimes favor government intervention and sometimes
support individual freedom of choice. Centrists pride themselves on
keeping an open mind, tend to oppose "political extremes," and
emphasize what they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.

Right (Conservative)
Conservatives tend to favor economic freedom, but frequently
support laws to restrict personal behavior that violates "traditional
values." They oppose excessive government control of business, while
endorsing government action to defend morality and the traditional
family structure. Conservatives usually support a strong military,
oppose bureaucracy and high taxes, favor a free-market economy,
and endorse strong law enforcement.

Statist (Big Government)
Statists want government to have a great deal of power over the
economy and individual behavior. They frequently doubt whether
economic liberty and individual freedom are practical options in
today's world. Statists tend to distrust the free market, support
high taxes and centralized planning of the economy, oppose
diverse lifestyles, and question the importance of civil liberties.

Another view from The Political Compass This has a longer version test than the above site.
Their test The Political Compass - Test
Their "maps"
( Last edited by Chongo; Apr 12, 2010 at 12:48 AM. )
45/47
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 12, 2010, 12:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Centrist
Centrists espouse a "middle ground" regarding government control
of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on the issue,
they sometimes favor government intervention and sometimes
support individual freedom of choice. Centrists pride themselves on
keeping an open mind, tend to oppose "political extremes," and
emphasize what they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.
Of course, *everyone* thinks that their preferred ideology represents the "middle ground" since nobody wants to think they're not open minded and sit in a political extreme.
     
subego
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Apr 12, 2010, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
it's more like this:
I meant, where does communism fit specifically on the scale I quoted, but this is useful nonetheless.
     
subego
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Apr 12, 2010, 01:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Of course, *everyone* thinks that their preferred ideology represents the "middle ground" since nobody wants to think they're not open minded and sit in a political extreme.
Not really.

I'm way out of centrist on the personal issues axis. While I consider myself open minded, I'm comfortable with the extremity of my position.
     
besson3c
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Apr 12, 2010, 01:45 AM
 
When you look at those graphs and where important historical leaders have been mapped and such, isn't it funny that they always seem to represent some sort of extreme?

This supports my theory that there is a balance to everything in life, and it is usually smart to strive for balance. Deep, huh?
     
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Apr 12, 2010, 06:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
No it isn't. You need to shift the left into the lower quadrant.
Why? Because it's impossible to have personal freedom without personal financial freedom. No point having the freedom to do things if you can't afford to do them and don't have the freedom to be able to earn the money to afford them.

Lefties think that everyone should have the right to go to the gay beach. But they also forget that not everyone lives near the gay beach - some people live in Kansas and need to spend a lot of money getting to that beach. Stop people's ability to earn and you stop their ability to go. Thus, lack of freedom. In real life there is no "libertarian socialist" quadrant.

And that's why I believe Chomsky to be a moron.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Big Mac
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Apr 12, 2010, 06:35 AM
 
Chomsky definitely is a moron. Is that really what he calls himself, a Libertarian Socialist? I guess it's him and Bill Maher.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Doofy
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Apr 12, 2010, 06:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
When you look at those graphs and where important historical leaders have been mapped and such, isn't it funny that they always seem to represent some sort of extreme?
Now try Doof's Patented Real Life Political Compass:

Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
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Apr 12, 2010, 06:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Chomsky definitely is a moron. Is that really what he calls himself, a Libertarian Socialist?
Yup. As per wiki:
He has since become an outspoken political commentator and a dedicated activist; he is a self-declared anarcho-syndicalist[11] and a libertarian socialist.
Standard anarcho-syndicalist/libertarian socialist who espouses "workers should own and control their workplaces". In other words, a commie.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Simon
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Apr 12, 2010, 08:51 AM
 
There's far too much talk here about Libertarians and Communists. In the US there are about five of each. And not one of them has a serious vote anywhere. They could all get run over by a bus tomorrow and the net effect on US politics would be zilch. It's time to direct attention towards what really matters, IOW those that really stand a chance at getting elected and end up running the country.

And with that, how about we get back to the topic. In the real world™, conservatives have way more serious issues than Libertarianism.
     
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Apr 12, 2010, 09:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
And with that, how about we get back to the topic.
We're on topic. Politics. Which isn't "Mac technical talk". So you're not interested.

http://forums.macnn.com/61/feedback/...chnical-forum/

Originally Posted by Simon View Post
I believe one very efficient way to redirect this misguided focus is to terminate the social forums

• Close the PWL.
Here ya go mate:
Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion - MacNN Forums
Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion - MacNN Forums

Toodle pip!
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That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Simon
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Apr 12, 2010, 09:09 AM
 
I'll let you know what I'm interested in and what not when I deem it appropriate. Until then I'll participate in whatever I feel like. Better luck next time.
     
Doofy
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Apr 12, 2010, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
I'll let you know what I'm interested in and what not when I deem it appropriate. Until then I'll participate in whatever I feel like.
...but will attempt to modulate the conversation to how you feel it should go, rather than the natural course it's taking.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Simon
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Apr 12, 2010, 09:33 AM
 
Oh get off it already. Look at the thread title. Is it too much to ask that we discuss "what issues conservatives have with their side" per the thread title?

No offense, but until you started preaching about how your political compass was the only true political compass, things were actually quite on track and in fact actually interesting to read. So can we please get back to hearing what the conservatives want to see change on their side? I'm sure nobody would object to you taking up the issue of political compasses in another thread.
     
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Apr 12, 2010, 09:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Oh get off it already. Look at the thread title. Is it too much to ask that we discuss "what issues conservatives have with their side" per the thread title?
No, not too much to ask.
But first, please define "conservative" so we know who the question's addressed to. You know, so we don't get the MacNN "right" popping up and saying "well, I'm not particularly conservative...".

Originally Posted by Simon View Post
No offense, but until you started preaching about how your political compass was the only true political compass, things were actually quite on track and in fact actually interesting to read.
Right. So I started the discussion about the political compass then, did I? Nothing to do with Bess mulling things over in post six?

Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
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Apr 12, 2010, 10:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Chomsky definitely is a moron. Is that really what he calls himself, a Libertarian Socialist? I guess it's him and Bill Maher.
GODWIN ALERT GODWIN ALERT GODWIN ALERT GODWIN ALERT
Debating Liberal Fascism - Jonah Goldberg - National Review Online

His comment on a review of his book, and where he got the title.
Judging from this, you’d think I just made-up the phrase from whole cloth. Nowhere does Neiwert mention that I get the phrase from H. G. Wells, quite possibly the most influential English-speaking public intellectual during the first third of the 20th century. It was H. G. Wells who sought to rechristen liberalism as “Liberal Fascism” or — again, his words — “Enlightened Nazism.”
The "anti war" movement during WWII was antiwar until the Nonaggression Pact was broke and Germany attacked the Soviet Union.
45/47
     
el chupacabra
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Apr 12, 2010, 10:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
@ Bess & Subego.
Yes, there is a line. It looks like this:

Statism <-------------> Freedom.

It's essentially the top left to bottom right diagonal on the standard political compass.
Which translates as such:

Lefties/Barry/etc. <-----------> Conservatives <-----------> Libertarians.

So, conservatives are actually centrists. Some state control, but only as long as it's their kind of state control.
The sooner you boys realise that Uncle Doof is right about this (and while you're at it figure out that he is actually a genius), the better.
hmm I never thought if it that way. I have now realized that Uncle Doof is a genus and feel much better!
except for theory of cows and global warming of course.
     
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Apr 12, 2010, 11:21 AM
 
Today the leftists ARE the statists. That is the method they are using to push the lib agenda.
     
subego
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Apr 12, 2010, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No, not too much to ask.
But first, please define "conservative" so we know who the question's addressed to. You know, so we don't get the MacNN "right" popping up and saying "well, I'm not particularly conservative...".
If you have a specific comment directed at me, make it to me. Otherwise, leave me out of it.
     
Doofy
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Apr 12, 2010, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If you have a specific comment directed at me, make it to me. Otherwise, leave me out of it.
I did that before. I directed a specific comment at you and Bess and I get some twat on my case for it. So f that.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
The Final Dakar
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Apr 12, 2010, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Today the leftists ARE the statists. That is the method they are using to push the lib agenda.
Did you miss 2000-2008?
     
BadKosh
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Apr 12, 2010, 01:05 PM
 
You mean the bipartisan approved war on Terror/Iraq? How about the 2006-present time? Ask Barney frank and Chris Dodd about where our tax dollars went. Where were they? Look how the statists ruined the US since Jan '07.
     
sek929
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Apr 12, 2010, 01:08 PM
 
So eroding our civil liberties and expanding our Federal Government to record size is okay Socialist behaviors, but once we socialize healthcare all of a sudden our president is Joseph Stalin.

B4dK0sh, far and away the most partisan shill on these forums.
     
subego
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Apr 12, 2010, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I did that before. I directed a specific comment at you and Bess and I get some twat on my case for it. So f that.
To which I replied.

Since you never responded, it should be all the easier to leave me out of it.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 12, 2010 at 02:28 PM. )
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 12, 2010, 09:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Today the leftists ARE the statists. That is the method they are using to push the lib agenda.
I dunno. The rightists seem perfectly happy with statism when it helps to push conservative agendas.
     
lpkmckenna
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Apr 12, 2010, 11:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I dunno. The rightists seem perfectly happy with statism when it helps to push conservative agendas.
Exactly. Conservatives pass laws and approve handouts to further their "beliefs" all the time. For instance, Israel gets billions every year from the US taxpayer, to spend on weapons from US companies. Lots and lots of examples like this. What conservatives say they believe and how they really govern are far apart.
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Standard anarcho-syndicalist/libertarian socialist who espouses "workers should own and control their workplaces". In other words, a commie.
These a big difference between a business owned and run by the gov't, and a business owned and run by its own workers. I'm not a syndicalist, but I know the difference between it and communism.
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Chomsky definitely is a moron. Is that really what he calls himself, a Libertarian Socialist? I guess it's him and Bill Maher.
In the real world, libertarian means syndicalist, and liberal means capitalist. Only the US has managed to utterly screw those words up.
     
 
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