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Brexit? (Page 3)
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Doc HM
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Big talk from a person who would probably be speaking German or Russian today, had it not been for the people you are so obviously bigoted towards.
Probably Russian for a while then we'd all have been radioactive slag. Europe having been the buffer against the USSR's expansionism.

The idea that America is how I described is as laughable as CTP's arguments against European culture. Hopefully he just got annoyed.

Apart from my response to his comment about my daughters and other young peoples selfish attitudes, he can still f**k off about that.
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:15 PM
 
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its not that simple.

Britain and France have been at war numerous times, but Britain helped rescue French aristocrats during the French revolution and if you look in your history books, you'll see there was another war of particular note that started in 1914.

Thats just two countries as example.
I've never seen this presented as some type of Britfranco shared cultural heritage. Is that how it's viewed? Surely not by the French.

Even if it is, I feel it reinforces my point. The rich Britfranco heritage is the heritage of two countries, not the heritage of Europe as some singular entity. Does any other country in Europe consider Britain saving French aristocrats as part of their cultural heritage?

Am I way out there in claiming Europe as we see it now didn't really exist until after WWII?


Should it be Francobrit? Anglofranc? Froglime?
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:53 PM
 
I've mentioned that I am happy for Britons that the UK has decided to leave the EU.

I probably should have also mentioned that I am NOT anti-French, anti-German, anti-Austrian, anti-Italian, anti-Spain, anti-Portugual,etc...

I am specifically "anti" the political collective of the EU.
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Jun 25, 2016 at 03:12 PM. )
     
reader50
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Jun 25, 2016, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Utter garbage. The only group "strongly" in the Remain camp were the <25 voters:


How Brexit vote broke down – POLITICO
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I did indeed hear it on the BBC, but they stressed it was an even higher age bracket than this graph. I can't find anywhere that has that data though.
I'd like to see a longer graph too. It would need 80+ to include 10-yr-olds in 1945. 90+ to include many adults at the time.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I really wonder if Scotland would vote to leave the UK now. That would be a double whammy for them in terms of stability, and then if they do succeed are go for EU membership, that would be a triple whammy for them and a high level of flux in laws/regulations/etc, over 3-5 years.
All of this is a set of advisory referendums. The U.K. will now have to negotiate an exit from the EU. Right now they aren't in such a hurry about that - it is the EU that is pushing because of the result of the vote. If there is a separate vote in Scotland saying that they want out of the U.K. and remain in the EU, the EU could just let them stay in while the rump-UK leaves. This is now the most likely result.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I think Scotland has stronger ties with the UK than with the EU (including the EU subsidies, and investment/industry, which i suspect is why they wanted to "remain"). I don't think they would choose to leave the UK at this point. It seems like they have a referendum on the issue every few years.... kinda expensive.
They have had a single vote, and they just barely stayed in. The situation is now different, and all it takes is a slight move towards independence.

Also consider that there are precious few to argue for Scotland staying in any more. Cameron is out. Corbyn has no credibility left, and recall that he was quite new on the post before all of this. Anyone who argued for Brexit will hardly be listened to in a country that was strongly Remain, and the stuff that is now coming up about how they were less than truthful doesn't exactly help.
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Jun 25, 2016, 04:41 PM
 
All I can say is:
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Not to put too fine a point on it, but hasn't most of that history been one of distrust, hatred, and slaughter? I'm not being cheeky when I say this was the status quo from before Christ to, oh... 1945?

Even if any given country is young, didn't most of them congeal around specific ethnic and linguistic groupings? Are not the cultural histories of these ethnic groups claimed by the countries these ethnic groups inhabit, even if the country itself is fairly young?
I'm not really sure what you are arguing about. It is truly your position that there is no shared European culture? Of course there were wars, and when one group invaded another, they left bits of their culture behind- music, language, cuisine. And when they went home, they took some of that culture with them.

Great artists travelled from their home to study with the masters across the continent. How many words in english began their life on the continent? How many of our words have they borrowed. The royal families and nobility have been intertwined for years. The last 'English' monarch England had was defeated by William in 1066.

Maybe you don't believe it, but many people both in the UK and the continent feel European. Certainly they have a national, or racial, or linguistic identity, but part of their identity is European. That comes form a shared culture and history. I am American- I'm part of that culture. I'm also a Virginian- a Southerner. Culture is not binary.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
hahahha I can see why the idea of culture may confuse you and lead to you being unable to see it. Being as you come from a place that thinks that cuisine is spreading yellow goo over everything and slapping a bun around it, fashion is wearing your John Deer cap on backwards and and that took until the mid 1960s to decide that legally some people were the same as other people.

Maybe you should look in your much vaunted garage. If it look like art on wheels, it's European.
Awww, the salt. That's all you have left, isn't it? (I accept your admission of defeat.) They had an interesting cultures, but now the people are mostly like Americans, only a decade behind and w/o deodorant.

All cars look like art on wheels, and the USA has made more than its share of beauties (and mingers). Let the anti-American hate flow through you, though. It's good comedy.
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Jun 25, 2016, 08:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
All cars look like art on wheels, and the USA has made more than its share of beauties (and mingers). Let the anti-American hate flow through you, though. It's good comedy.
Nope. Very few cars are art on wheels. None are American. Your philistinism is showing through. Looking good(ish) and performing well is nowhere near enough. If you think otherwiae you misunsderastand beauty, art, soul and culture. But your myriad posts to date show this even more clearly
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Jun 25, 2016, 08:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I've never seen this presented as some type of Britfranco shared cultural heritage. Is that how it's viewed? Surely not by the French.

Even if it is, I feel it reinforces my point. The rich Britfranco heritage is the heritage of two countries, not the heritage of Europe as some singular entity. Does any other country in Europe consider Britain saving French aristocrats as part of their cultural heritage?

Am I way out there in claiming Europe as we see it now didn't really exist until after WWII?


Should it be Francobrit? Anglofranc? Froglime?
We usually talk about Anglo-French relations.

England and France sort of love to hate each other. We have banter and make fun of each other, we beat them at or save them in wars, they beat us at football and go on strike to inconvenience us when the mood takes them.
But we love each others cheeses.

Tbh it often feels like everyone else hates England. The Welsh, Scots and Irish all hate us, even though we like them. The Spanish seem to tolerate us actually, and the Germans don't seem to mind us. Nor the Dutch, but there is a lot of sentiment in the EU that we already get special treatment, which we do I think. Not special enough for our population apparently.
But you guys don't really like us that much apart from the accent and certain TV shows. Everyone in America is either Irish-American, or Italian, Dutch, few Germans, a few Scots, even some Welsh. Lots of Russians, Poles, Turks and Greeks. None of you ever seem to think you're English though. I'm sure a lot of you must be.

I digress.

European royalty used to hang out and intermarry. Wealthy Europeans would mingle for trade, fashions would spread across Europe, from clothes to furniture to architecture. People would travel to go see Mozart perform or he would travel to perform in various places. It wasn't all wars, but the wars serve to mingle the genes. Many Brits today have partial Norman (French) ancestry from when they invaded, we have Scandinavian genes from the Viking invasion before that. I think the Angles were Germanic maybe? I'm not that great at history, but I do know that to suggest Europe has a shared culture is true on multiple levels. Hopefully now so do you.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jun 25, 2016, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Our histories have been entwined for millennia. We've fought with and against each other back and forth many times over. History didn't start 200 years ago.
I think "cultural appropriation" is when white Americans get dreadlocks or listen to rap music.
Visiting Europe is less convenient and more expensive.
No one said you can't remain in contact, and that's what is confusing so many of the youth. You can share a great deal w/o also sharing gov't.
No, cultural appropriation is (supposedly) borrowing shamelessly from a culture w/o care for its history or people.
Okay? It'll take a few more minutes to get out your passport and the pound is already recovering. That drop was coming for a long time, the pound has been overvalued by ~5% and its hurt your exports and you're accumulating trade deficits.

Blah blah anyone who doesn't agree with me is regressive. There is nothing progressive about leaving the EU.
Who said it was? It's a move away from the Marxist collective and rule by committee.

There is no need to deny our worth in order to favour EU membership. Our worth is still greater within Europe though. Its only small minded people who feel the EU is in any way oppressive.
You still buy the "small Britain" bullshit. There's a lot of oppressive, anti-democratic policies, you simply have chosen to ignore them.

Did I say they'd refuse to trade with us? No. Arguing with yourself? I said there was a cost to be in the single market, which there is. Norway and Switzerland have to pay it too. Didn't you just say we hadn't made a penny from trading with Europe though? You're all over the place. Get it together.The EU don't tell us any such thing about us being nothing without them. I for one have never read a single newsletter from the EU telling me anything at all. Maybe Paco is right that you've been listening to Jonesey again.
I never said that, I said that your exports have dropped. Non-EU countries in the 1st world are flourishing while those within are mired by corruption, bureaucracy, and a very special (dangerous) type of internal bullying and guilt-tripping. It's destroying countries from within, and it's plainly evident from your own violent crime rates skyrocketing. Paco's just a troll, another one of those types, so deft at handing out abuse and insults, that you can tell he only has anger and hate left, that his heart is as dark and black as his sarcasm. I put him back on ignore, where he'll stay.

I'm no expert on fishing. I know some restrictions were made for environmental reasons and I know the Spanish and French were notorious for ignoring those restrictions. Its not something thats been in the news recently. I do know that not all fishermen are anti-EU, and I know that after Michael Gove of the leave campaign aired a mini-documentary about how the EU had screwed his family fishing firm, his Dad (who actually ran it) came out and said that was bollocks. Another lie from the leave campaign.
Geez, more indoctrination, with a healthy dose of lies and omissions from the BBC. The EU’s betrayal of Britain’s fishing industry - The Commentator

Dropping exports is a great point though. The old farts who just voted us out are all harking back to a time when we had a huge manufacturing industry because once upon a time it was difficult and not many other countries could do what do. Nowadays they can all do it cheaper. Same goes for our coal and steel industries. The working classes are furious that we bailed out the bankers and won't save a completely unviable steel industry. They think the government should piss money away paying ten times market rate for steel just to employ an extra thousand Welshmen. Ridiculous. They are out of touch with reality and it has caused them to make a huge mistake.
Yet Norway's manufacturing is growing. Wow, that shouldn't be possible under the auspices that cheap labor trumps all, but it's happening none the less. The UK joining led to the theft of your most valuable automobile companies, the desolation of your factories, and the diminishing of your own national brands, all to prop up Germany and much smaller countries that went on to squander the opportunities they were given. Greece collapsed, Portugal, Spain, and Italy are right behind, and they'll drag you down too if you let them. They don't care about you and your families, they only want even more of your money to further live beyond their means.

Maybe time for you to move to Texas in time for Texit then.
As interesting as that could be, I don't live in Texas, it isn't my home.

I did indeed hear it on the BBC, but they stressed it was an even higher age bracket than this graph. I can't find anywhere that has that data though.
I did too, that's where I first heard the lie, and they didn't back it with data either. That's what I've been trying to tell you. Stop accepting what they say, FFS. Bloody hell...
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Jun 25, 2016, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Nope. Very few cars are art on wheels. None are American. Your philistinism is showing through. Looking good(ish) and performing well is nowhere near enough. If you think otherwiae you misunsderastand beauty, art, soul and culture. But your myriad posts to date show this even more clearly
I'm sure there are optometrists in the UK, you should go visit one*. Poor fella. Must be why these are still some of the most desired cars in all of Europe?




(* I don't think they can do anything about your snobbery, however.)
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Jun 25, 2016, 09:18 PM
 
A labour MP has called for parliament to vote on leaving the EU. This is essentially an end-run around the referendum result which was technically only advisory and not legally binding.
It might be too soon for this to work, or it might be the best time before people get jaded by the post ref discussions. I'm not sure Parliament would dare vote on it though, especially with Cameron on his way out, or if they did they might not dare vote against the public.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 25, 2016, 09:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Geez, more indoctrination, with a healthy dose of lies and omissions from the BBC. The EU’s betrayal of Britain’s fishing industry - The Commentator
I didn't get anything about fishing from the BBC, though they are still one of the most reputable news sources around. I don't know why you have such a bug up your ass about them. Other than they say things you don't like.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yet Norway's manufacturing is growing. Wow, that shouldn't be possible under the auspices that cheap labor trumps all, but it's happening none the less. The UK joining led to the theft of your most valuable automobile companies, the desolation of your factories, and the diminishing of your own national brands, all to prop up Germany and much smaller countries that went on to squander the opportunities they were given. Greece collapsed, Portugal, Spain, and Italy are right behind, and they'll drag you down too if you let them. They don't care about you and your families, they only want even more of your money to further live beyond their means.
Maybe Norway are making the right things then. I doubt its steel girders or Land Rovers or whatever else our idiot population is pining after.
I want manufacturing to move abroad to the cheap labour. I want us building more high tech stuff. Planes and spacecraft. Complex machinery, artisan stuff. Stuff that requires more skilled labour. 3D printing tech is going to kill foreign factories before too long and then there will likely be some kind of IP apocalypse. (I'm trademarking IPocalypse©) as torrent sites switch from hollywood movies to clothes and furnishings and utensils.

If Britain wants to be great again, it needs to look further forward than ever before not get stuck in the past which is what its doing this week.
Rolls Royce with their single crystal turbine blades. Thats the sort of shit we need to be manufacturing.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I did too, that's where I first heard the lie, and they didn't back it with data either. That's what I've been trying to tell you. Stop accepting what they say, FFS. Bloody hell...
It was a comment made on the live broadcast. I highly doubt it had time to be run past the left wing conspiracy team for approval.
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Jun 25, 2016, 09:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I didn't get anything about fishing from the BBC, though they are still one of the most reputable news sources around.
They really aren't, not anymore. Special interest from the continent controls them, like they've taken over your industries.
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Jun 25, 2016, 11:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I'm not really sure what you are arguing about. It is truly your position that there is no shared European culture? Of course there were wars, and when one group invaded another, they left bits of their culture behind- music, language, cuisine. And when they went home, they took some of that culture with them.

Great artists travelled from their home to study with the masters across the continent. How many words in english began their life on the continent? How many of our words have they borrowed. The royal families and nobility have been intertwined for years. The last 'English' monarch England had was defeated by William in 1066.

Maybe you don't believe it, but many people both in the UK and the continent feel European. Certainly they have a national, or racial, or linguistic identity, but part of their identity is European. That comes form a shared culture and history. I am American- I'm part of that culture. I'm also a Virginian- a Southerner. Culture is not binary.
My argument is one of taxonomy. I'm not challenging the existence of anything listed above, I'm arguing what's the proper way to classify it.

Of course Europeans consider themselves European. Europe has been more or less geopolitically coherent our entire lives. I would argue this is a stark contrast with the situation for most of history.

With the cultural history Europe has had as a coherent entity, I feel a distinction can be drawn between it, what we would consider "Europe", and the geopolitically fragmented Europe of pre-WWII and earlier.

Calling both of those "European cultural history" seems like overloading the term.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 02:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You mean "Islamophobia" Where are they majority of the "immigrants" coming from, and are they families, or are they young men?
The immigrants are mostly Eastern Europe (e. g. Poland, Romania and Bulgaria), but also from countries like Italy or so.
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Jun 26, 2016, 02:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Major political changes usually have headline reasons behind them. Maybe I've missed them. Why does Britain want to leave? I have good impressions of the EU - their politicians seem less corrupt than those on our side of the pond.
P's list is a great start. The EU has 28 member states (soon 27), so Britain was relegated to one of 28. Britain's idea of how the EU should evolve was very different from that of many other member states (especially those around the historic nucleus): Britain wanted more of an economic union while other countries wanted more political integration. Usually the dynamics would be that the core countries (often a coalition around France and Germany) would propose changes and Britain would push against them. In that sense a lot of negotiations had an “us vs. them” feeling to them.

A proper judgement of Britain's criticism is not a simple cut-and-dry situation, the situation is quite nuanced: on the one hand you have legitimate criticism of a systematic lack of democracy. For instance, the European Parliament does not have the right to propose legislation, but the European Commission does. The system is designed so that a single or a few countries can block legislation. Making it more democratic would mean that you have to remove this possibility one way or another. Hence, England's criticism that the EU has a democracy deficit is a bit disingenuous because they were not interested in removing this deficit by giving more power to the European Parliament. Moreover, the EU is based on thousands of pages of contracts, written at different times with different purposes in mind. Add to that that most people are rather disinterested in Europe (e. g. the voter turnout for European elections is much, much lower). So a lot of Brits perceive the EU as curtailing their sovereignty, and they believe they are better off with being on their own.

Secondly, Britain has seen a lot of immigration from Europe, and a substantial share of the population feel that they pay more than the British people get in return (in particular when it comes to social services). Britain has attracted a lot of immigrants from Eastern Europe and to a lesser degree from Italy and Spain. This includes both lower skilled jobs (e. g. in the care industry) but also jobs for which you need vocational training (e. g. plumbing) all the way to highly skilled jobs (e. g. in the financial industry). Especially around London and the good universities you find companies such as Google, Dropbox and Facebook who hire people from all over Europe. England's biggest advantage in my opinion is the language: especially if you are well-educated, your first foreign language is usually English. For that reason quite a few international companies had their European head quarters in England (mostly London). Brexit changes the calculus.

Europe's inability to effectively deal with the refugee crisis in the Mediterranean exacerbated this. In principle England is quite far away from everything, but once the member states would agree on spreading the refugees all over Europe, they're suddenly right at England's doorstep. Practically, England has taken preciously few refugees when compared to, say, Germany or Sweden — both, in absolute and relative terms.

Proportionally, people who voted for Brexit tended to be older and less educated. That's hardly a coincidence, because the less educated are the ones competing with highly motivated immigrants from Eastern European countries for not-so-nice jobs. They don't feel the advantages of the EU. Ditto for people who were working in the industry: traditional manufacturing in the UK has been in decline for decades, and what is left is typically owned by foreign companies. Mini, for instance, is a BMW subsidiary. Of course all of this plays into the nostalgia of what Britain used to be — an empire with a lot of influence in the world's affairs.
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Jun 26, 2016, 02:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
It was also pleasing to see Nigel Farrage on the morning news, going back on the leave campaigns £350 million for the NHS pledge only an hour after the result. Apparently he always thought it was wrong to claim this. Well thanks Nigel for that.
That didn't stop him from plastering it all over his bus:
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Jun 26, 2016, 04:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post

Geez, more indoctrination, with a healthy dose of lies and omissions from the BBC. The EU’s betrayal of Britain’s fishing industry - The Commentator
They decided to share the fishing waters of the union between all members and then set national quotas based on the number of fishermen in each country at the time. This meant that countries like Spain, which had lots of fishermen but little stock of fish, gained, while the UK and other countries with big waters and fewer fishermen lost. I don't like the common fishing policy for many reasons, but it was done at the time to help backwards Mediterranean countries rise from a period of military dictatorship.

Yet Norway's manufacturing is growing. Wow, that shouldn't be possible under the auspices that cheap labor trumps all, but it's happening none the less. The UK joining led to the theft of your most valuable automobile companies, the desolation of your factories, and the diminishing of your own national brands, all to prop up Germany and much smaller countries that went on to squander the opportunities they were given. Greece collapsed, Portugal, Spain, and Italy are right behind, and they'll drag you down too if you let them. They don't care about you and your families, they only want even more of your money to further live beyond their means.
Norway's manufacturing is growing because it is coming from an extremely low level. Norway lived of fishing and then on oil, and never had much manufacturing to begin with. Being out of the EU hurt their manufacturing sector terribly - that part of the country was the only area that voted Yes back in their referendum. I am currently kilometers from the border, and travel to Norway for business every now and then - I have at least some first hand experience here.

"The theft of your most valuable automotive companies..." How? The biggest sale of a UK car company was Vauxhall in the frigging 1920ies, to GM. How would staying out of the EU have helped the rest? Toll walls?

And whatever money the UK paid out didn't go to Germany. Germany is the biggest net payer in the EU. If being a net payer was so bad, it certainly didn't hurt them. In fact, all the net payers have had at least a decent economical development.
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Jun 26, 2016, 04:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post


hahahahahahahhahahaha really?.

Moving on


So half of Corbyn's shadow cabinet are leaving to force a leadership election in the labour party. Which is madness as Corbyn will just win again as the trade unions and the labour membership like him.

Labours whole remain campaign was hampered by the fact that despite campaigning for remain, Corbyn has spent the past 30 years voting against Europe continuously, he was obviously half hearted in his efforts and kept deliberately going off message in his speeches but it turned out he was the one who was in tune with the eventual result.

Interesting article about how labour might move forward in a post brexit country.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ogrexit-brexit
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Jun 26, 2016, 06:00 AM
 
Yeah Corbyn was late to start campaigning at all and he refused to share a stage with Cameron which IMO made him look petty which goes strongly against his image of being Mr. morally correct all the time. He's already dismissed the notion of a second referendum which Parliament is required to discuss thanks to a petition which is likely hitting 3m signatures by now and so it now seems that his shitty contribution to the remain campaign was deliberate which makes him a big fat liar just like all the other politicians. I think a lot of the people who liked him might have changed their minds about him now, so his position may not be that strong any more.. At least among the public, and his MPs have definitely turned. Not that they were too convinced in the first place.
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Jun 26, 2016, 06:11 AM
 
and where the hell has Osborne got to?

It's not like the UK hasn't just undergone the largest economic shock in the last 50 years and could do with the guy who is, you know, in charge of the economy, having something to say.

Apparently he has surfaced to tweet congratulations to a fellow tory MP on her new same sex relationship. So he is alive.

??
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Jun 26, 2016, 08:55 AM
 
The tactics of what is going on is quite interesting. Cameron was voted in originally mostly because people were tired of the Blair-Brown Labour, but he didn't gain a majority off his own - he needed Clegg, who accepted to be the junior party in return for a referendum on changing the voting system. Clegg got that referendum, but lost it, and so the Lib-Dems were close to wiped out in the next election - the price for the referendum was having to support a lot of policies they and their voters didn't like.

Clegg in turn was Cameron's best excuse for not having a referendum on the EU - LibDems like it, and with them in a coalition, Cameron could avoid that vote. With Clegg out, Cameron had to schedule a vote.

The trick to winning it, meanwhile, was the Labour voters. Labour however selected a leader who didn't really like the EU. Corbyn paid lip service to it, but wasn't very interested in campaigning for it - and he didn't want to be too closely associated with Cameron. With polls showing a lead for Remain for a long time, he thought he was OK. A week before when the polling situation was more dire, he tried to rally, but very half-hearted, and he failed to get the young vote out.

So Leave won, and Cameron resigns, without triggering Article 50. Tories now have to select a new leader, but that leader will only have bad choices now. They could trigger article 50, but that disruption (Scotland leaving does now look highly likely, in addition to all the renegotiation) and the incoming recession will mean that their chances in the next election are slim - remember that the Tories weren't that well liked to begin with. They could decide to not trigger it, and get accused of being undemocratic - and lose a lot of votes to UKIP. Either way, the Tories are in trouble. Johnson may even decide not run for the leadership now, and he seems unlikely to win it even if he runs. Labour is in open rebellion, as already mentioned, and Corbyn was already too far to the left to be a viable PM candidate. Even if they can get someone better in they will be hard pressed to win a majority without Scotland. There are some other small parties that will likely rise now, but in general it is very hard to predict that on a FPTP system.

The only winner is Nigel Farage.
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:18 AM
 
Corbyn wanted out if you ask me. Another liar.

Meanwhile People are desperately hoping this theory about David Cameron and Brexit is true
( Last edited by Waragainstsleep; Jun 26, 2016 at 03:42 PM. )
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Jun 26, 2016, 11:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
hahahahahahahhahahaha really?.

Moving on
You have an adult daughter and act like you do? I feel so sorry for her.
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Jun 26, 2016, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You have an adult daughter and act like you do? I feel so sorry for her.
This was a mature and measured response to a utterly absurd claim. Get over yourself.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
This was a mature and measured response to a utterly absurd claim. Get over yourself.
Shut your damned mouth, classic Mustangs are gorgeous.
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Jun 26, 2016, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Shut your damned mouth, classic Mustangs are gorgeous.
Classic Mustangs are sought after because of what they represent, not because they are a design triumph. The only market for them in Europe is from people who are into Americana, not by car nuts.

In fact I was at a classic car show a few weekends ago that had a 66 Mustang- I spent a lot of time talking to the owner because my father has the same car before I was born. About half the people that came over had no idea what it was.

The Aston Martins, the MGs, the Austin Healeys, hell even the Ford Cortinas were getting more attention. The Mustang is not and never has been thing in Europe.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 02:31 PM
 
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jun 26, 2016, 02:33 PM
 
In other news, if the Brexit vote were being held today it probably would have passed by an even higher percentage.

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Jun 26, 2016, 03:11 PM
 
That doesn't follow from the data. The biggest reason the polls failed was that the younger voters didn't show up - most thought it clear that Remain would win. Another vote today, and they probably would have voted.
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Jun 26, 2016, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That doesn't make it the best, let alone the prettiest. Mustangs are way cheaper than classic Ferraris for a start. Like 'accessible to the man in the street" cheaper. To buy and to insure.
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Jun 26, 2016, 04:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
This is rich. First off, at most, I'm mistaken. And who knows, maybe there is this secret underground Mustang hysteria that I'm unaware of. But I doubt it. A self selecting survey by a used car website is hardly definitive. Given the date of the survey, I'd say it the result had more to do with the fact that Ford announced it was bringing the Mustang to Europe for the first time ever about then. Odd that Ford has never brought it over here before seeing as everybody wants one. Maybe they hate making money?

But I'm a liar.

You lie consistently and with abandon. Either your entire persona on here is a lie, or almost everything you claim is. There is no way someone with your regularly demonstrated lack of understanding of documentary evidence has a PhD in anything from anywhere, and you've never published scholarly articles. You almost certainly don't own a castle in Scotland. You are not a deacon in the Coptic church and I doubt you ever were. You never saw an article on a secret DVD-ROMs that says that the California open carry laws were a response to a white sniper. You don't own these DVD-ROMs. No one with such an obvious hostility towards women runs a women's charity. I really doubt you have anything to do with establishment of the medical debt forgiveness charity you linked to as you claim. And on and on and on.

You lie constantly and with abandon. You have no credibility. Any opportunity you are given to support any of the nonsense you spout with even a shred of evidence, you can't.

Maybe I'm wrong, I really doubt it, but maybe. Everything I've cited above, you could easily prove. Do it and I'll donate $100 to "your" medical debt forgiveness charity tomorrow.

Put up or go back to sitting in your basement all night with your pants around your ankles arguing with idiots like me on the internet.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Put up or go back to sitting in your basement all night with your pants around your ankles arguing with idiots like me on the internet.
or simply make everyone heres life better by heading out the out door. While your at it you could usefully improve the lives of everyone that has the unwitting misfortune to meet you in real life by locking yourself in a room for the rest of your life. Maybe someone could pass food under the door.

Given your posting history here that's most likely where you are anyway. I hope your doctors eventually get the medication right.
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Jun 26, 2016, 07:52 PM
 
Petition for second EU referendum started by a right-wing activist | Metro News

This has actually the funny: the petition to re-do the referendum because of low turnout was actually started by a Leave supporter long before the vote. He assumed Remain would win and that turnout would be low.
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Jun 26, 2016, 07:54 PM
 
Typical sore loser bullshit: Vote until you get the results you like.

-t
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Typical sore loser bullshit: Vote until you get the results you like.

-t
This.

I didn't like the vote so lets redo it with new rules!
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, did he say it ? I don't know.
Yes, the 350 million Pounds per week/50 million Pounds per day figure was one of Farage's standard talking points (e. g. go to the 1:30 mark of this BBC interview from February 2016). And the number was also on his bus together with the suggestion that the money could go to the NHS instead.
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Typical sore loser bullshit: Vote until you get the results you like.

-t
Bingo.

Seems very right-wing, almost fascist to be so uncivilized as to ignore the legal democratic process when the results don't suit you.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Corbyn wanted out if you ask me. Another liar.

Meanwhile People are desperately hoping this theory about David Cameron and Brexit is true
That's a pretty interesting take and explains why Boris Johnson used as cautious a language as he did the day after the referendum. But I don't think the EU will accept Britain to reluctantly remain while negotiating a better deal. The Johnsons and the Farages of Britain now have to do what they promised — and bear all the consequences (e. g. Scotland breaking away from the union).
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Typical sore loser bullshit: Vote until you get the results you like.
???
Did you actually read who started the petition? The initiator backed Leave, and started the petition because he thought Remain would get a majority.
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yes, the 350 million Pounds per week/50 million Pounds per day figure was one of Farage's standard talking points (e. g. go to the 1:30 mark of this BBC interview from February 2016). And the number was also on his bus together with the suggestion that the money could go to the NHS instead.
Now the UK, gets to decide what it wants to do with that money, instead of transferring it to Brussels. A citizen of the UK, can now vote for and thus decide on whether or not to spend it on infrastructure, the NHS, the schools, border controls and immigration, or heavens forbid, tax breaks for UK citizens.

The alternative for that money, had the UK chosen to stay in the EU, would be to transfer that money out of the UK and have someone else decide what they wanted to do with it and spend it as they saw fit.

Not a difficult choice, if you ask me.

PS>>If the talking point has changed, big whoop, one options sees the UK keep that money the other sees it being taken away from them.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
???
Did you actually read who started the petition? The initiator backed Leave, and started the petition because he thought Remain would get a majority.
And the people who signed it after the results were in? Just a guess, but I'd wager the vast majority of them were from the side that lost the referendum.
     
subego
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:28 PM
 
I feel these guys are pikers compared to politicians in the states.

Here, we would put that money into the NHS, and then just lower the overall budget.

When states claim the state lottery "funds education", this is what they do.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Now the UK, gets to decide what it wants to do with that money, instead of transferring it to Brussels. A citizen of the UK, can now vote for and thus decide on whether or not to spend it on infrastructure, the NHS, the schools, border controls and immigration, or heavens forbid, tax breaks for UK citizens.
I think you've missed the purpose of the exchange: turtle had an exchange with Doc HM where Doc HM quoted Farage from this infamous interview:
Originally Posted by Nigel Farage
No, I can't, and I would have never made that claim. It was one of the mistakes the Leave Campaign made.
He also claimed that the number wasn't part of one of his adverts. Turtle asked whether Farage had ever used the 350 million per week/50 million per day figure, and I posted a link to an interview where he had as well as a picture of the Leave Campaign's red tour bus.

No matter where you stand on the issue, that's quite disingenuous behavior.
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:32 PM
 
I thought there was some deal where there were multiple Leave organizations.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:36 PM
 
Are you sure the quote is at 1:30? He seems to be talking about migrants there.
     
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Jun 26, 2016, 09:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think you've missed the purpose of the exchange: turtle had an exchange with Doc HM where Doc HM quoted Farage from this infamous interview:

He also claimed that the number wasn't part of one of his adverts. Turtle asked whether Farage had ever used the 350 million per week/50 million per day figure, and I posted a link to an interview where he had as well as a picture of the Leave Campaign's red tour bus.

No matter where you stand on the issue, that's quite disingenuous behavior.
Oh i watched it all. And it could very well be that Farage said something he couldnt possibly do within the political system. Can a UK PM take a chunk out of a budget and give it to any public organization he wishes? Or is there a different mechanism/ budget office, etc... that makes those choices? If it's something done by 1 man at the top, you have a pretty bad system there.

Either way, when i saw that slogan, i assumed it meant that there would be more money to spend on public services within the UK (whatever those services might be), and that is fundamentally a good thing in my book. (I see no reason for the people of the UK to fund the lifestyles/generosities of others)

My takeaway from that interview, was the way the hosts graciously ended the interview considering they were probably supporting the side which lost. Kudos to Piers Morgan(of all people) for that. That is good civil behavior in my book. Here's thewhole interview
     
 
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