[peeb]

So what do they do about the destruction of the Earth through crass consumerism?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Except this time, we pretty much know the whole story.

So you've seen the movie then?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Sure I do.

Mercantilism was a relic of the 16th century. For the most part, it's in the dustbin of history where it belongs.

No, it's alive and well "Adam Smith saw the mercantile system as an enormous conspiracy by manufacturers and merchants against consumers". Pay attention.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

BS anti-consumerism anti-business nonsense, combined with the think-of-the-environment chicken-little-sky-is-falling nonsense isn't something I need to encourage.

I get to make that choice. Further, if that's the message being pushed by this movie, it's probably a crap movie, or at least worse than it would be without such nonsense.

Wow.... I never had you pegged as a political ideologue zealot type, I was clearly wrong.

Get a grip, we aren't talking about moral issues such as rape, murder, etc. We are talking about politically gray area that your kids won't be able to fully grasp until they are adults. There is nothing morally wrong with kids being exposed to values that are anything other than pro-commercialism, especially in the context of this sort of very simple, light-hearted social commentary.

What about the so-called "true meaning of Christmas"? Do you let your kids watch stuff that is anti-Christmas commercialism? This is different because we are supposed to be anti-commercialism only around Christmas, but pro-commercialism at every other time?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Eug 

On the flip side, some of us will also forgive the movie for being inherently hypocritical, as it will sell sheetloads of merchandise crap. vmarks, does that make you feel better? It's the ultimate capitalist win - take the left's own message and repackage it into a capitalist marketing powerhouse.

Excellent point! Probably a good one to raise in any discussion with a child old enough to understand it, and we'd get to talk about marketing and message, which goes back to wants vs. needs.

Except that my children are in the target audience and won't be old enough to understand that point for a few more years.

Note that I haven't said I'll prevent them from seeing the movie - I'm just prepared to be disappointed in the movie.

[@pplejaxkz]

I'm super stoked for this film!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by scottiB 

I think the robot looks funny and the girly robot looks pretty.

Yeah man, that girl robot is hot!

[Horsepoo!!!]

Man, vmarks. You're gonna hang yourself one day when you realize your kids are going to be exposed to much worse messages.

Just let them watch the movie and tell them that the message in it was completely wrong. Chances are they'll look at you funny, not understand a single thing you said, and tell you they loved the robots.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Wow.... I never had you pegged as a political ideologue zealot type, I was clearly wrong.

Get a grip, we aren't talking about moral issues such as rape, murder, etc. We are talking about politically gray area that your kids won't be able to fully grasp until they are adults. There is nothing morally wrong with kids being exposed to values that are anything other than pro-commercialism, especially in the context of this sort of very simple, light-hearted social commentary.

What about the so-called "true meaning of Christmas"? Do you let your kids watch stuff that is anti-Christmas commercialism? This is different because we are supposed to be anti-commercialism only around Christmas, but pro-commercialism at every other time?

There's nothing bad or wrong about being able to make value judgements.

As economic systems lead to either improving quality of life, depressing quality of life, or even death, how a person understands their ability to change fiscal standing is very clearly a moral issue, particularly where wealth transfer of some systems becomes involved.

As a parent, it's my responsibility to make value judgements for my children, and impart those values to my children.

We don't do Christmas. We haven't had to confront any meaning of Christmas, true or otherwise. Other families have that difficulty, and I expect I'll have to address it at some point in the future when my children go to school.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Man, vmarks. You're gonna hang yourself one day when you realize your kids are going to be exposed to much worse messages.

Not at all. By the time that takes place, I'll have prepared them and equipped them to be able to recognize flawed positions and reject them.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Not at all. By the time that takes place, I'll have prepared them and equipped them to be able to recognize flawed positions and reject them.

Why don't you start now. Let them watch the movie, tell them why the message is wrong.

Not letting your kids watch movies or listen to stories just because there are hidden messages is just plain wrong. You're doing more harm than good.

And what would you do if after all this preparation they still can't recognize flawed positions? You'll feel pretty miserable I bet.

[besson3c]

vmarks: so, how will you handle Christmas when your kids start encountering other kids that are exposed to the whole commercialism vs. true meaning of Christmas thing? How about when they start watching Christmas TV specials or something? Will the Charlie Brown Christmas special be banned?

Charlie Brown... DENIED!

[besson3c]

Yeah, it's like not letting your kids watch Harry Potter because of religious beliefs while every other kid in their age group has seen every movie, has read the books, and are talking about them constantly. Honestly, you would probably be doing the kids more harm in not exposing them to these sorts of discussions and conversations that can emanate from something like this...

At what age should kids be allowed to think for themselves, vmarks?

[Eug]

Personally I hate those Charlie Brown Xmas shows.

P.S. This reminds me of an amusing story of child indoctrination. About 10 years ago, a bunch of my friends went to visit another friend that moved out of town. He had gotten married and had kids so were spending a bit of time with his daughter when we were there. The kid had just gotten a new fluffy white bear but hadn't named it yet. So, one of the guys suggested calling it "Honky". She loved that name, and the decision was made. Everywhere she went she'd announce the white bear was named "Honky".

The girl's mom hated us after that.

[Knof8]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Except this time, we pretty much know the whole story.

SPOILERS:

 

Humans pollute Earth through crass consumerism,
Earth becomes unlivable. Humans move to space.
700 years go by and the robot WALL-E who was left behind to clean up develops a personality. A lovable personality.
Gag jokes about befriending a cockroach, bra-over-eye-sensors, unexpected propulsion by fire-extinguisher.
Humans send back a probe named Eve to see if the job has been completed.
Eve and WALL-E fall in love.
Eve returns to space.
WALL-E tags along on the outside of the rocket.
WALL-E has funny encounters on the humans' space ship.
WALL-E is sent off the ship in a space escape pod, separated from Eve.
WALL-E activates auto-destruct as Eve races to rescue him.
WALL-E uses the fire extinguisher trick he learned on Earth during the clean up to escape the blast.

We know this from the trailers.

Yes, all of those things from the trailers, so none of those are really spoilers. It sounds as if you're working under the assumption that a good chunk of the movie will revolve around how bad the earth is. According to Fandango.com here is the official movie synopsis:

Disney and Pixar join forces for this computer-animated tale about a wide-eyed robot who travels to the deepest reaches of outer space in search of a newfound friend. The year is 2700, and planet Earth has long been uninhabitable. For hundreds of years, WALL-E (Waste Allocation Load Lifter Earth-Class) has been taking out the trash, and collecting precious knick-knacks in order to stave off the boredom of his dreary routine. Little does WALL-E realize that he has recently stumbled onto a secret that could save planet Earth, and once again make the ravaged planet safe for all humankind. When highly advanced search robot EVE makes friends with WALL-E and realizes the value of his remarkable discovery, she excitedly races back to let the humans know that there's hope for their home planet after all. But after centuries alone in space, WALL-E can't stand the thought of losing the only friend he's ever known, and eagerly follows her into the deepest reaches of space on the adventure of a lifetime. Along the way, the friendly trash-collecting robot who has always known what he was made for gradually begins to understand what he was meant for.

*shrug* Take it for what you will, but I'm not going to unfairly critique a movie and think that it's going to try and sell me a message before seeing it. Otherwise, I might be looking so hard for what I want that I'll miss what's really there. Regardless, I'll be watching it this weekend.

[::maroma::]

Sheltering kids is always a good idea. (See below)

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

I'm not anticipating greatness with this one.

Monsters, Inc., Ratatouille, The Incredibles, Toy Story 1 and 2, were films without messages in the background.

Cars had the negative message about overachievers and not needing to win everything. Mary Anning - Rosemary Marks' weblog has a good review of Cars in context that explains why it isn't all it should have been.

WALL-E looks to be sullied with the anti-consumerism message.
Let's see, BuyNLarge (wal-mart?) and foolish humans destroy the planet, pack up and leave, leaving behind a robot to clean up.

Do I REALLY need to expose my children to anti-consumerism clap-trap?

And, is this a movie where I've already seen the best parts a hundred times in trailers? They run that damn bra-over-eye-sensors gag all the time. Is that the best joke in the movie?

I'll see it, but I'm prepared to be disappointed.

vmarks:
i think the subconscious reason why i like Pixar movies is because of the simple morals put forth. It might be idealistic, but inspirational imo.

Monster's Inc.: laughter/happiness is more powerful than fear ?
Ratatouille: No matter where you come from or your history, you can achieve what you set your mind to.
Toy Story: New friends are silver old friends are gold ?
Toy Story 2: No one gets left behind/forgotten ? 'with a little help from my friends' ?
Incredibles: Comprimise ?

I guess those movies did a better job of weaving those lessons into fabric of the story, unlike Cars which made it more obvious. But i like Pixar movies specifically because of the subtle moral compass they suggest.

As far as exposing your kids to 'anti-consumerism clap-trap' ....... as a parent what stance would you prefer your kids take ?
-consumerism
-more conservative eco-friendly

Personally, i prefer the latter. and it's nice to see such a prominent movie offer this commentary which i didnt expect, considering the merchandizing/consumerism behind Disney.

But i suggest, that maybe this isnt even the main theme of the movie to begin with ? maybe it's a romantic movie first ? i dont know i havent seen it yet.

Cheers

[sek929]

Bubble-Boy <shudder> now there's a movie everybody needs to be sheltered from.

[Eug]

I'll probably go see it within the week. I'm really looking forward to this one.



P.S. Does Jobs have any control over Pixar anymore?

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Jake Gylahallahallahalla <shudder> now there's someone everybody needs to be sheltered from.

Fixxors

[sek929]

Hey, I liked Donnie Darko.....and the day after tomorrow (just kidding that movie was terrible)

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Personally, i prefer the latter. and it's nice to see such a prominent movie offer this commentary which i didnt expect, considering the merchandizing/consumerism behind Disney.

What's funny is how much marketing of consumerist stuff is accompanying the movie.

[design219]

Originally Posted by sek929 

and the day after tomorrow (just kidding that movie was terrible)

It had one good scene. I loved the wave crashing on the statue of liberty and over the bridges.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by design219 

I loved the wave crashing on the statue of liberty

That's because you hate America.

[sek929]

Once the 'cold' was chasing them around I started to laugh. I mean really....REALLY?

BTW, is it a new feature than new unread posts in the thread have a different glow to the 'quote' 'quick reply' etc boxes?

[Dakar the Fourth]

It's been like that for months now.

[sek929]

D'oh, guess my old LCD wasn't as good at this iMac's screen then.

[scottiB]

From Variety's review:

In the meantime, "WALL-E" pushes an agenda that could, and no doubt will, be interpreted as "green," or ecologically minded. It's a theme that is certainly present, at least as pertains to what forced humanity off the planet in the first place. But in a bigger sense, the picture seems to be making a quiet pitch for taking clear-headed responsibility for the health of the planet as well as one's body and mind.

The adages about how you must lie in the bed you make, and you are what you eat, both would seem to apply here. But Stanton, his co-story hatcher Pete Docter, co-scenarist Jim Reardon and the entire Pixar team operate on the principle that entertainment values come first, and they have applied it throughout to sprightly effect.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by sek929 

D'oh, guess my old LCD wasn't as good at this iMac's screen then.

I'm lying through my teeth, of course.

[sek929]

Bastard.

[vmarks]

My children seem to be in the target audience for this movie.

The characters don't have much in the way of verbal communication, which suits children who can't compose sentences longer than eight words just fine. (At this age recognition vocabulary is larger than creation vocabulary anyway.)

My children love Toy Story 1 and 2. They've watched Ratatouille and Cars, but don't have any interest in them. Similarly, they aren't fond of the Incredibles.

But Toy Story 1 and 2 enchant them. One daughter won't leave the house without a Jessie doll, and when the movie is on, she runs to grab Jessie, Woody, and Buzz. While watching Toy Story 2, she'll grab our ukelele when Woody is shown with his guitar. My other daughter used to jump on the sofa and call out "to infinity and beyond!" (Imitation is one of the cornerstones of learning. If you can't imitate, you can't learn.)

I've shown them the trailers and teasers to WALL-E. They start out shouting "WALL-E!!! WALL-E!!!" and by the time I've finished a trailer and gone on to a teaser, they cry out "No WALL-E! No WALL-E!"
I wonder what it is that they're not liking.

As for the crass anti-consumerist clap-trap, the problem is this. You've seen children who pick up a message from propaganda and then feel compelled to spread this message to everyone in range. It's annoying, and offensive. A good example is the child who's heard anti-cigarette propaganda (regardless of the truth of the message) and has to tell complete strangers that they're gonna die. (ok, they could get the message from the parent.) I blame the parent for not teaching the child restraint, or how to critically examine the message. You end up in a regretful situation, like the child whose stuffed animal was so embarrassing. (Eug's example.)

I won't have my children picking up crap messages and repeating them to everyone in earshot. It's impolite, and a sign of poor parenting.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by scottiB 

From Variety's review:

I hope the reviewer is correct.

I like robots. I like the inspiration the animation has provided to hobbyists who are building life size WALL-E droids. I even like a good work of science fiction.

I'd like WALL-E to be a good movie without being weighed down by propaganda. I'll have to see it to judge for myself.

[besson3c]

vmarks: it's a robot love story. That is the gist of the movie. It is not some sort of environmental/political movie.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

WALL-E looks to be sullied with the anti-consumerism message.
Let's see, BuyNLarge (wal-mart?) and foolish humans destroy the planet, pack up and leave, leaving behind a robot to clean up.

Do I REALLY need to expose my children to anti-consumerism clap-trap?

No, but they might have to move to a new planet in 50 years though as we are turning this one to crap.

I think this is a really smart way to get kids aware of our environmental situation.

[design219]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

as we are turning this one to crap.

Some people don't seem to think so.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by design219 

Some people don't seem to think so.

Or, in many cases, more aptly put, some people don't feel so.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

the problem is this. You've seen children who pick up a message from propaganda and then feel compelled to spread this message to everyone in range. It's annoying, and offensive. A good example is the child who's heard anti-cigarette propaganda (regardless of the truth of the message) and has to tell complete strangers that they're gonna die. (ok, they could get the message from the parent.) I blame the parent for not teaching the child restraint, or how to critically examine the message....
I won't have my children picking up crap messages and repeating them to everyone in earshot. It's impolite, and a sign of poor parenting.

Right - we're done here. You want to shield your children from crap messages like anti-consumerism and health messages about smoking? I think the educated world is wasting it's time with you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Right - we're done here. You want to shield your children from crap messages like anti-consumerism and health messages about smoking? I think the educated world is wasting it's time with you.

In fairness, he is not saying that anti-smoking is a crap message.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by design219 

Some people don't seem to think so.

And some people think the earth is flat and cigarets are harmless.

[Salty]

I got into a fight with someone in a bus shelter cause they were smoking... it was just verbal, and me taking his cigarette and stomping on it... until someone else came and punched his friend in the face...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty 

I got into a fight with someone in a bus shelter cause they were smoking... it was just verbal, and me taking his cigarette and stomping on it... until someone else came and punched his friend in the face...

What was the fight about? Did he try to hit you? Was he smoking his cigarette?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Salty 

I got into a fight with someone in a bus shelter cause they were smoking... it was just verbal, and me taking his cigarette and stomping on it... until someone else came and punched his friend in the face...

once you escalated the situation by removing and destroying the man's cigarette, you changed the situation from "just verbal" to physical.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

once you escalated the situation by removing and destroying the man's cigarette, you changed the situation from "just verbal" to physical.

Only the vaguest and sparsest of details are all that is needed before a judgement can be cast, huh?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

once you escalated the situation by removing and destroying the man's cigarette, you changed the situation from "just verbal" to physical.

Or you can see it another way and say it was physical to begin with because this asshole was smoking right next to you in a small enclosed shelter where you're forced to inhale his second-hand smoke which is apparently close to 4 times more toxic than the smoke of the cigarette itself.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

It's been like that for months now.

I agree on the Gyllenhaaal thingy.

I just noticed the glow of the buttons today.. granted things can escape me but not for months. Unless by months you mean days.

I'm looking forward to seeing Wall-E, I loved Cars and Finding Nemo, but the Incredibles was a huge disappointment.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Only the vaguest and sparsest of details are all that is needed before a judgement can be cast, huh?

He's a primary source.
He told it in the order
(1) It was just verbal
(2) and (Salty) grabbed the man's cigarette and stomped it out (theft and destruction of something he hadn't paid for)

So, it was verbal, until Salty took action against the person and the person's property. Unless Salty (the primary source) told the story wrong, Salty escalated the situation from verbal to physical.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Sure I do. That's why they're my kids, and not yours. They'll be exposed to plenty of nonsense from other people along the way, but they'll get to be exposed to my values and be the better for it.

Wow. I feel sorry for your kids.

I'll be exposing my kids to as many differing and opposing view points as possible and letting them make up their own mind about things.

Also shame on you for being a MODERATOR and turning a thread about a kids movie into something political. Take it to the pol/war lounge.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Or you can see it another way and say it was physical to begin with because this asshole was smoking right next to you in a small enclosed shelter where you're forced to inhale his second-hand smoke which is apparently close to 4 times more toxic than the smoke of the cigarette itself.

Unless it's against the law to smoke at the bus stop, the man was doing nothing wrong. Inadvisable, perhaps, but wrong? no.

Salty took the man's cigarette and stomped it out. Unless Salty told the story wrong, Salty aggravated the situation by making it physical.

[peeb]

Also, the idea that cigarettes are bad for you is a liberal conspiracy they made up because they hate corporations.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Also, the idea that cigarettes are bad for you is a liberal conspiracy they made up because they hate corporations.

Just as an aside, how did this thread go from Pixar's Wall-E which will be premiered to the public tomorrow, and degenerate into cigarettes, buzzwords and straw-man arguments?

Only on MacNN! - where moderators are either not-present or derailing threads.. .. hmm that's about par for the course.