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starman · Jan 19, 2008, 04:47 PM

hy,
I don't know how much of this thread you read, but I think the real problem is goMac's assertion that AppleTV/digital downloads will dominate. I'm sure they will EVENTUALLY, but the fact is that:

1) Today's high-speed internet connections can't handle Blu-Ray type volume.
2) No extras with streaming movies (I love extras)
3) The concept of ownership.
4) The ability to play what you want, where you want without restriction.

Currently, physical media is the ONLY solution to the problem. When you get into digital downloads, it becomes a mess. goMac seems to think digital downloads will solve ALL the problems, but he's so blind to the counter-arguments that he's not seeing the bigger picture, and that's why this thread..won't....die (or get out of this loop).

mrtew · Jan 19, 2008, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by starman

... he's so blind to the counter-arguments that he's not seeing the bigger picture, and that's why this thread..won't....die (or get out of this loop).

Yeah if people would acknowledge each-other's good points before reiterating their own for the 12th time we could probably have more of a discussion rather than just shouting back and forth.

Shaddim · Jan 19, 2008, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

With a vastly superior codec.

You can still tell that it's heavily compressed.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 19, 2008, 05:07 PM

what's stopping people from recording what's playing on the tv? I'm sure they still make VCRs or some sort of recordable disk machine to be plugged into the tv.

starman · Jan 19, 2008, 05:08 PM

Nothing. My TiVo records 1080i just perfectly.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 19, 2008, 05:11 PM

i guess i put that out of context. i was thinking along the lines of people recording what they rent from the apple tv with either a tape or some other means.

hyteckit · Jan 19, 2008, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock²

i guess i put that out of context. i was thinking along the lines of people recording what they rent from the apple tv with either a tape or some other means.

I'm guessing HDCP would prevent it. It'll need a HDCP device, for the HD version of the movie anyway. Maybe that's why the HD version is only available on the AppleTV cause it has HDCP support and most computers today don't.

Shaddim · Jan 19, 2008, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

You do when it comes to 1080p and 7.1 channel surround sound adoption rates. So don't feel all that bad about yourself.

I'm getting all I want right now, as far as HD is concerned. With Blu-ray I get superior video, DTS HD audio on a decent range of titles, great choice of movies, and superb availability. The idea that something so inferior, such as AppleTV's "HD", could be viewed as an alternative leaves me unimpressed.

Recent survey of the general public only shows about 17% who are really interested in HDTV while 55% have little to no interest.

Considering how many people I see scarfing up HD gear at different retail stores, that 17% must be hauling ass to get their fix. The last few times I've visited my local hi-fi shop I thought I'd have to get a number and wait, the place was packed. At one time I could borrow anything I wanted and test it for months before I decided to buy, but it seems those days are almost gone now.

jokell82 · Jan 19, 2008, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Considering how many people I see scarfing up HD gear at different retail stores, that 17% must be hauling ass to get their fix. The last few times I've visited my local hi-fi shop I thought I'd have to get a number and wait, the place was packed. At one time I could borrow anything I wanted and test it for months before I decided to buy, but it seems those days are almost gone now.

Remember that being interested in HD and buying an HD set are two *totally* different animals. It's getting hard to find an SDTV these days.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 19, 2008, 05:26 PM

jokell82: there are a BUNCH at the local bestbuys. in fact they're over stocked because people won't buy them

(SDTV)

hyteckit: I'm doing some research about that. I'll get back to ya

BRussell · Jan 19, 2008, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

I'm getting all I want right now, as far as HD is concerned. With Blu-ray I get superior video, DTS HD audio on a decent range of titles, great choice of movies, and superb availability. The idea that something so inferior, such as AppleTV's "HD", could be viewed as an alternative leaves me unimpressed.

Personally, I'd rather go with AppleTV over Blu-ray: I'll pay less, get more functionality (e.g., movie trailers, access to the media on your Mac, youtube, photos, etc.), have more choices (e.g., all the Tv shows you can buy on the iTS, not to mention podcasts and music and such). I'm so completely not interested in the arguments over the small differences in perceived quality - as long as the quality isn't poor enough that it's noticeable and distracts attention from the actual content, it's OK with me.

starman · Jan 19, 2008, 05:42 PM

I'm sure the quality will be noticeable. That's what this whole argument is about. And...podcasts on an AppleTV? I make podcasts and I hope to God people aren't using an AppleTV as their main means of listening to them. I dunno, maybe it's good for people without a computer, but how many people without computers are gonna get an AppleTV?

Shaddim · Jan 19, 2008, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Personally, I'd rather go with AppleTV over Blu-ray: I'll pay less, get more functionality (e.g., movie trailers, access to the media on your Mac, youtube, photos, etc.), have more choices (e.g., all the Tv shows you can buy on the iTS, not to mention podcasts and music and such). I'm so completely not interested in the arguments over the small differences in perceived quality - as long as the quality isn't poor enough that it's noticeable and distracts attention from the actual content, it's OK with me.

That's the problem, it is noticeable, in both video and sound.

BRussell · Jan 19, 2008, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by starman

I'm sure the quality will be noticeable. That's what this whole argument is about. And...podcasts on an AppleTV? I make podcasts and I hope to God people aren't using an AppleTV as their main means of listening to them. I dunno, maybe it's good for people without a computer, but how many people without computers are gonna get an AppleTV?

Absolutely podcasts. For example, you can watch the nightly news and shows like Meet the Press via video podcasts any time. Watching them on a TV - which is where you'd normally watch them - makes much more sense than watching them on a computer. But I admit that I don't watch your podcast.

starman · Jan 19, 2008, 06:03 PM

You're talking VIDEO podcasts. You have to make that distinction. I do audio only.

jokell82 · Jan 19, 2008, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock²

jokell82: there are a BUNCH at the local bestbuys. in fact they're over stocked because people won't buy them

(SDTV)

My local Best Buys replaced the SDTV section with a Magnolia High Fi section. I can count the number of SDTVs in there on one hand. Now I know every Best Buy isn't necessarily like that, but it's definitely the plan.

Originally Posted by starman

I'm sure the quality will be noticeable. That's what this whole argument is about. And...podcasts on an AppleTV? I make podcasts and I hope to God people aren't using an AppleTV as their main means of listening to them. I dunno, maybe it's good for people without a computer, but how many people without computers are gonna get an AppleTV?

I'll be watching video podcasts on mine. I've pretty much stopped watching podcasts on my computer since I spend all day long on a computer at work and don't feel like sitting in front of it at home. But I can definitely turn on a video podcast while I'm cooking dinner...

BRussell · Jan 19, 2008, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

That's the problem, it is noticeable, in both video and sound.

I'm not talking about noticeable differences when you compare them, I'm talking about noticeably poor quality that distracts from the content, as in "ugh what was that?"

To me it's the same issue with music encoding. 128 AAC or mp3 doesn't seem like poor quality to me, even though I can tell the difference between it and CD if I actually compare them. As long as the quality doesn't interfere with enjoyment of the content, it's good with me.

But if the kind of HD used for internet movies does seriously interfere with your enjoyment of them, then you're better off with Blu-ray, and we're both happy. But the AppleTV still will have a ton more functionality and probably cost less.

starman · Jan 19, 2008, 06:08 PM

Video podcasts blown up on an HDTV?

Eww...

hyteckit · Jan 19, 2008, 06:10 PM

I watch video podcast on my HDTV. I have my mac mini hooked up. Wish there was a hack version of the AppleTV software I can install on my Mac Mini so I can rent some movies.

jokell82 · Jan 19, 2008, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Video podcasts blown up on an HDTV?

Eww...

Well, you've convinced me. I'll just not watch any of 'em.

Thanks!

hyteckit · Jan 19, 2008, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Well, you've convinced me. I'll just not watch any of 'em.

Thanks!

Starman would never watch any video that is not 1080p ever again. He won't settle for anything less than 1080p and lossless 7.1 sound even if it is a video podcast.

starman · Jan 19, 2008, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Starman would never watch any video that is not 1080p ever again.

So let me guess, you've never seen a badly compressed video podcast on an HDTV?

I have Cranky Geeks and a few other low-vid-quality podcasts on my TiVo and they look atrocious. On the other hand, Tekzilla does their video podcast in HD 1080.

EDIT: you had that extra line in there...why? To show you're a dick?

hyteckit · Jan 19, 2008, 06:20 PM

Yeah, I watch diggnation in HD. Planning to downgrade to the iPod version of diggnation because I could care less about the video quality of diggnation. Only video podcast I care about video quality is MacBreak Studio where they show you how to cool stuff with video and graphics.

Starman, if you have a cap on the internet downloads, I suggest you stop downloading the HD versions of podcast. The diggnation HD podcast is like 400MB.

starman · Jan 19, 2008, 06:22 PM

I don't watch diggnation anymore. It's a complete waste of time for me. If a podcast exists in 1080, I'll watch it in 1080. If not, I only watch it on my PC because bad video on an HDTV looks like ass.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 19, 2008, 09:17 PM

http://www.idoblu.co.uk/page2%20Blu-ray%20Players.html

Shaddim · Jan 19, 2008, 11:57 PM

The Denon DVD3800BD looks quite fetching. I'm waiting for the Integra BD player that's coming out in Q3, but if I weren't I'd be pre-ordering it.

unnervingfalcon · Jan 20, 2008, 12:12 AM

Blue-Ray will win it at the end because it can store more info on its format then HD-DVD. Which means that there will be no need to compress anything on the disk to fit all the info on it. Thats the problem with normal DVD's now and they aren't even holding HD format. So you can imagine how much space HD takes. A Blue-Ray single sided disk holds 25 gigs and on the HD-DVD it hold 15 gigs. A movie that isn't compressed will be a better picture and better sound. It's like taking a picture in small format on your digital camera and then trying to blow it up.... doesn't look good does it. Well thats like uncompressing a movie. Thats the way I think of it anyway.

jokell82 · Jan 20, 2008, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by unnervingfalcon

Blue-Ray will win it at the end because it can store more info on its format then HD-DVD. Which means that there will be no need to compress anything on the disk to fit all the info on it. Thats the problem with normal DVD's now and they aren't even holding HD format. So you can imagine how much space HD takes. A Blue-Ray single sided disk holds 25 gigs and on the HD-DVD it hold 15 gigs. A movie that isn't compressed will be a better picture and better sound. It's like taking a picture in small format on your digital camera and then trying to blow it up.... doesn't look good does it. Well thats like uncompressing a movie. Thats the way I think of it anyway.

Yeah I don't know what you're smoking, but Blu-Rays are compressed.

unnervingfalcon · Jan 20, 2008, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Yeah I don't know what you're smoking, but Blu-Rays are compressed.

K guess I was wrong....... but......a disc with more space on it means that the compression rate won't have to be as big right?

brassplayersrock² · Jan 20, 2008, 12:29 AM

be easy on this one guys

unnervingfalcon · Jan 20, 2008, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock²

be easy on this one guys

Was a interesting way to say "Welcome" by a veteran of a computer forum, wasn't it?. 'Thumbs up'

brassplayersrock² · Jan 20, 2008, 12:44 AM

to much rummed maple syrup? heh, welcome to the forums

edit:
actually, you should be the one to welcome me Mr. April 2007

unnervingfalcon · Jan 20, 2008, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock²

to much rummed maple syrup? heh, welcome to the forums

edit:
actually, you should be the one to welcome me Mr. April 2007

LOL never noticed the date just saw the General Stars......That was like my third post on this site.

I was actually talking about the guy who replied to me the first time. I was thankin you for sticking up for moi

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 20, 2008, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by unnervingfalcon

K guess I was wrong....... but......a disc with more space on it means that the compression rate won't have to be as big right?

The video quality is usually the same as even 25 gigs is enough for a top quality video. HD-DVD did have to compromise on sound quality though for some movies because of the size limitations.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 20, 2008, 01:50 PM

HD DVD booklet from CES explodes with irony - Engadget

msuper69 · Jan 20, 2008, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

I watch video podcast on my HDTV. I have my mac mini hooked up. Wish there was a hack version of the AppleTV software I can install on my Mac Mini so I can rent some movies.

You can rent movies via iTunes. You don't need an AppleTV nor the software.

starman · Jan 20, 2008, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by msuper69

You can rent movies via iTunes. You don't need an AppleTV nor the software.

You do if you want to rent HD.

Chongo · Jan 20, 2008, 02:45 PM

Can anything save HD DVD? | Crave : The gadget blog

hyteckit · Jan 20, 2008, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by msuper69

You can rent movies via iTunes. You don't need an AppleTV nor the software.

I meant having the cool AppleTV interface and being able to rent HD movies. I know I can do it from iTunes right now.

Lateralus · Jan 21, 2008, 01:57 AM

Well, I've officially joined the war.

Best Buy is offering 9 free movies with any Toshiba HD DVD player this week, and with the A3 now at $149 it was just too good of a deal to pass up.

300 and Bourne are in the box of course, but I also snagged the 5-disc Blade Runner and Children of Men.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 21, 2008, 02:22 AM

$149?? and 9 free movies? is that when you buy it or is it a mail in thing? (the free movies part)

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 21, 2008, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Well, I've officially joined the war.

To be honest it isn't gonna help em any but welcome to the losing end anyway.

Lateralus · Jan 21, 2008, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock²

$149?? and 9 free movies? is that when you buy it or is it a mail in thing? (the free movies part)

300 and Bourne are in the box. You then get a choice of two more in-store. I picked Blade Runner and Children of Men. The other 5 are mail-in.

Pretty slick deal, even if you do have to wait a month or two for the mail-ins.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

To be honest it isn't gonna help em any but welcome to the losing end anyway.

Eh... I have faith in my choice.

Being on the side of the underdog has always appealed to me more than being on the winning side. I'm a Mac head, after all.

aristotles · Jan 21, 2008, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Well, I've officially joined the war.

Best Buy is offering 9 free movies with any Toshiba HD DVD player this week, and with the A3 now at $149 it was just too good of a deal to pass up.

300 and Bourne are in the box of course, but I also snagged the 5-disc Blade Runner and Children of Men.

I hope you enjoy your purchase but you basically bought a Laser Disc player when DVD was launched. HD DVD is also being compared to Betamax.

300 is of course available on blu-ray as well as HD DVD, I have the 5 disc Blade Runner on Blu-ray and Children of Men is available on blu-ray (region free) as an import from amazon.de in germany.

Lateralus · Jan 21, 2008, 02:55 AM

Oooohhh nooos!

Yeah, sorry, but I'm gonna have a hard time regretting the purchase of a $150 HD player that does an incredible job of upconverting and comes with 9 free HD movies.

The Beta/Laser comparison would only work if these players cost much more than they do. But there's really no bad way to slice the kinds of deals that can be had right now. For me, $150 is nothing considering the free movies and the fact that I'll have a new toy to play with.

It's also nice that I'll have an HD player to hold me over for a while until Blu-ray player and movie prices become much more reasonable.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 21, 2008, 03:08 AM

i would probably be in the same boat, get a HD player to hold me over here in college until blu-ray prices come down, but i know for a fact that it wouldn't really matter on my mid 90s philips hand me down from a previous roommate 19'' tube tv. my cinema display has better clarity when playing movies

i just keep it to play my ps2 on.

aristotles · Jan 21, 2008, 03:12 AM

You can find deals in the US for Blu-ray players for under 300 dollars (even 150 on an open box return) that come with 5 free Blu-rays. With or without bogo sales, the average Blu-ray title price is lower than the average price for HD DVD with combo discs costing a lot more.

You might want to google the CED vs Laser Disc war. Although Laserdisc remained a niche format it still beat out CED which (like Toshiba and HD DVD) was mainly an RCA format while Laserdisc had several manufacturers. Despite lower prices for CED players, lower prices for titles which were touted as cheaper to manufacture since they were based on LP technology (sound familar?) it lost out to the more expensive LD because LD had more lines of resolution with capacity to grow. The nail in the coffin for CED was when studios and retailers pulled the plug because nobody was buying the cheap players or the media.

History is repeating except Sony learned from the past (BETAMAX) and Blu-ray has a real chance to go mainstream.

aristotles · Jan 21, 2008, 03:18 AM

MSFT Insider details Red Ring of Death causes and admits the 360 was rushed to market to beat Sony.
Inside Source Reveal the Truth About Xbox 360 "Red Ring of Death" Failures

With a track record like that, why would people buy an add-on to watch HD DVD on a 360?

Lateralus · Jan 21, 2008, 03:33 AM

And with a track record like Sony's, why would anybody buy a PS3 for the Blu-ray drive?

brassplayersrock² · Jan 21, 2008, 03:35 AM

I've heard that it's the most future proof player, and you get the ability to play blu-ray movies and video games on one console.

my two cents