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Shooting Rampage at VT (Page 8)
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Captain Obvious
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Apr 17, 2007, 09:11 PM
 
Bah, it all comes down to having had stopped the students from entering the classrooms inbetween the two shooting. While not preventable it would have been far less disastrous.

Its all the fault of the university president and that nappy headed cho.
Gun control is a moot point.

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besson3c
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Apr 17, 2007, 09:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
What would the criticism be like if they didn't give a speech about it at all?

Lose/Lose
Yeah, you have a point there...
     
Jawbone54
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Apr 17, 2007, 09:42 PM
 
The university's response wasn't enough. I'll definitely agree with that. And judging the shooter by his plays and what was apparently consistently odd, aggressive, and violent behavior, he should have been institutionalized long ago.
     
wolfen
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Apr 17, 2007, 09:51 PM
 
I think any university that takes state or federal money should require mental health screenings/evaluations during the summer before school. This is not just for campus safety, but could help tens of thousands of students with disorders and social problems of all kinds. It's a vital time of life, and a very good time to intervene -- before the stresses of college and independence take hold.
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shabbasuraj
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Apr 17, 2007, 10:59 PM
 
Bush is going to implement a 'academic' marshall program and situate one armed individual disquised as a student in each university classroom in the US in response to this shooting.
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grayware
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Apr 18, 2007, 12:01 AM
 
Once again, one very sick nut and a gun (in this case, two). It's always a case of one's mental state folks, not the armory. When a despicable and tragic event like this occurs the same people come out of the woodwork saying the US is gun happy. I tend to disagree; someone mentioned stats... okay, how many people own a gun? Millions. And how many of those do something sick with it like the VT $#@!?

A friend sent me this article by Neal Boortz today (never heard of the guy before) which has many concepts to ponder.
     
Jawbone54
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Apr 18, 2007, 12:16 AM
 
Neal Boortz is an extremely successful libertarian talk radio host, as well as a best-selling author (The FairTax Book). I don't agree with him on everything, but he makes excellent points on a very consistent basis.

Another weird point: I just learned that my college campus allows students to carry guns if they have a permit.
     
Cipher13
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Apr 18, 2007, 01:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by His Dudeness View Post
So you're a shrink now? Which is it? You don't even know what I look like or what I do for a living, so I really don't think you are qualified to tell me what I'm thinking. If so, what am I thinking now?
Why do you have to take my posts so out of context? All I'm telling you is you don't understand the definition of the word "grieve". Substitute it for a more appropriate one and I'll stop this right now.

Originally Posted by wolfen View Post
I truly didn't see it as a renege, but as a clarification.

In my "belief system" the dead are actually alive and well in The Beyond. Grieving for them doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But I feel great sadness (that I would say qualifies for grief) for the pain among the living relatives of these people. I grieve shattered relationships and hollowed out parents.

I'm not someone who thinks we should feel something every time there's bad news. It's too much to expect. Frankly when 9/11 happened I was barely phased -- and I grew up in NYC. I experienced it as a political event.

But someone has serious emotional immaturity if they never feel sadness for any of the horrors that humanity inflicts on itself. I expect that in the teens who frequent the Lounge, but hope for more in grown adults.
That's all totally fair enough - and nothing I'd argue with. Your belief systems are your own, and that applies to everybody.

I do still think that the use of the word "grieve" is inappropriate, though, and that's my main point here.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Not that that has anything to do with my point...
Not at all, but you were still wrong, and I dislike misinformation.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Well it happens every day.
No, it doesn't. For the fifth or sixth time now, sadness, yes; sypathy, yes; grief, no.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
But I wouldn't. Because that would be silly. Not so in this case.
It's actually largely the same thing. You're basically argueing that black is white, because you don't understand what "grief" is.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
These usually aren't crimes of passion. These are usually well thought out attacks. Not that being murdered by a bat is any better than doing so with a gun.
Yeah, I do agree, but my point was that even if there were a few shootings like this that were crimes of passion, they may have been preventable. I mentioned earlier that it takes many months to get a gun in Australia, through legal channels, and a ruleset like that may be quite useful.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Stop them from killing someone WITH A GUN maybe. Laws exist now that stop such sales.
I'm not aware of them so I won't comment, but they don't seem extremely effective if this shooter picked up a gun within a week of when the shooting happened.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Cipher13, always a pleasure to read your posts

V
The pleasure is mutual.

It's always nice to see a few voices of reason around.
     
macgeek2005
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Apr 18, 2007, 03:17 AM
 
What a lame guy. He should've planned better and used a machine gun. And and he should've had a few more allies on his side as well. He could've easily killed a few hundred.

What a moron. Only 32? LAME!
     
Nicko
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Apr 18, 2007, 03:39 AM
 
His room mate said he downloaded alot of mp3s....hmmmmmm
     
Dakarʒ
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Apr 18, 2007, 08:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by macgeek2005 View Post
What a lame guy. He should've planned better and used a machine gun. And and he should've had a few more allies on his side as well. He could've easily killed a few hundred.

What a moron. Only 32? LAME!
You're very funny and mature.
     
design219
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Apr 18, 2007, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by macgeek2005 View Post
He should've planned better and used a machine gun.

...He could've easily killed a few hundred.

What a moron. Only 32? LAME!
I know we fling a lot of odd humor around here, but right now, that is not funny.
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red rocket
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Apr 18, 2007, 08:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Nicko
And now the plot thickens...Literally!

Thanks to Web 2.0.... Cho mass-murderer Seung-Hui's Plays on display for the world, Posthumanously published!
There is even a facebook connection, surreal.

Cho Seung-Hui's Plays - News Bloggers


---

Well I read two pages of one of the plays, is this for real? How did this guy get accepted to this university in the first place? Another point, he was clearly disturbed, what was the professor thinking? Ah, but hindsight being 20/20 and all that...
Lots of people write plays with ultraviolent and deviant content, that doesn't automatically mean the playwrights are "disturbed". "Disturbed" is a relative term, anyway, it says more about the psychoanalyst than it does about the patient.

Originally Posted by former classmate
Cho was in my playwriting class last fall, and nobody seemed to think much of him at first. He would sit by himself whenever possible, and didn't like talking to anyone. I don't think I've ever actually heard his voice before. He was just so quiet and kept to himself. Looking back, he fit the exact stereotype of what one would typically think of as a "school shooter" – a loner, obsessed with violence, and serious personal problems. Some of us in class tried to talk to him to be nice and get him out of his shell, but he refused talking to anyone. It was like he didn't want to be friends with anybody. One friend of mine tried to offer him some Halloween candy that she still had, but he slowly shook his head, refusing it. He just came to class every day and submitted his work on time, as I understand it.
So he's a loner. It's a very common trait amongst writers, and even though the two plays make it abundantly clear that Cho had no talent for writing dialogue, in my opinion, one should not make the mistake of diagnosing people as psychos in need of counselling or medication just because they don't want to be friends with everybody and don't want to eat flipping Halloween candy.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Even the UK government want to lock up mentally ill™ people, just in case they might commit some crime in the future. Why don't we just lock up everybody who isn't part of the Happy Crowd? They're bound to flip at one point or another.
     
His Dudeness
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Apr 18, 2007, 09:51 AM
 
Well, I just learned that one of the Chief Petty Officers here at my command in Norfolk lost his daughter at Virginia Tech. That sucks.
     
Nicko
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by His Dudeness View Post
Well, I just learned that one of the Chief Petty Officers here at my command in Norfolk lost his daughter at Virginia Tech. That sucks.
Wow, small world.
     
Kevin
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
That's reality.
Taking away guns = Stopping this from happening isn't a reality.

That is what I was talking about.
     
Kevin
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
Bah, it all comes down to having had stopped the students from entering the classrooms inbetween the two shooting. While not preventable it would have been far less disastrous.

Its all the fault of the university president and that nappy headed cho.
Gun control is a moot point.
Winner.
     
Kevin
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cipher13 View Post
Not at all, but you were still wrong, and I dislike misinformation.
Um I was still wrong about what? And how was I wrong? You making a statement that has nothing to do with what I said, then later just claiming it was wrong doesn't make it so.
No, it doesn't. For the fifth or sixth time now, sadness, yes; sypathy, yes; grief, no.
Well that is funny cause I felt the feelings listed in the few definitions I looked up on the word. For those that are wanting to argue semantics. Not that I had to look the word up. But this has pretty much turned into a semantics "you don't know the meaning of the word, I DO" silly chest pounding.

So for you to tell me no, no I didn't have those feelings is a bit absurd. When indeed I did. And others here have said they too have.
It's actually largely the same thing. You're basically argueing that black is white, because you don't understand what "grief" is.
Ah here comes the condescending pretension. I know what grief is I assure you.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they lack understanding. That is kinda conceited to think as much.
( Last edited by Kevin; Apr 18, 2007 at 10:22 AM. )
     
Gee4orce
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:15 AM
 
Why can't America amend the 2nd amendment again ? "Right to bear arms in times of war or national crisis only" ?

America thinks it's still in the days of the Wild West. In civilised countries, people don't tote weaponry. They don't treat other members of their society with utter distrust and contempt (re: New Orleans)

Strange, also, that Canada and Switzerland (I believe) have equally high gun ownership yet virtually no gun crime (by comparison).
     
Y3a
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by G Barnett View Post


My post went completely over your head, didn't it? It's too soon for this crap. It's far, far too soon for any sort of politicizing or agenda-beating or scapegoating to be going on.

It's been barely a day, yet all the vultures with their agendas and boogeymen and random speculation are gleefully circling over the mess.

Give it a freakin' week before starting in on this garbage.

That goes for the pro-gun, anti-gun, pro/anti-anything folks at this point. Show some bloody respect for the victims.
So I guess we should NOT review the processes in place right now, or review EXACTLY what happened to get any facts straight, but wait til we feel better about stuff?
Lets just forget the little stuff, and move on.
Let it happen again.
lets all stick our heads in the sand.

The ABSOLUTE banning of guns by VT folks was a mistake.
A handful of RESPONSIBLE FOLKS with them could have saved lives.

Why no surveilence cameras on campus to make the few VT Cops job easier?
     
Kevin
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:19 AM
 
Y3a I think he is referring to the political shills that make this out to be about "new gun laws" every time something like this happens. Gun laws that they want to introduce that really have no effect on something like this.

It's disgusting. People who do this have to have sociopathic tendencies to be able to do such a thing. IMHO.
     
Dakarʒ
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
It's disgusting. People who do this have to have sociopathic tendencies to be able to do such a thing. IMHO.
I hope you mean go on killing sprees and not introduce gun laws.
     
Y3a
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gee4orce View Post
Why can't America amend the 2nd amendment again ? "Right to bear arms in times of war or national crisis only" ?

America thinks it's still in the days of the Wild West. In civilised countries, people don't tote weaponry. They don't treat other members of their society with utter distrust and contempt (re: New Orleans)

Strange, also, that Canada and Switzerland (I believe) have equally high gun ownership yet virtually no gun crime (by comparison).
Perhaps if the nazis had landed in the UK during early 1942 you would have WANTED ALL THE BRITS to have loaded guns to kill those nazis. The countrys that don't allow citizens to own guns also seem to keep them as prisioners more often than not. (China, USSR etc)

You don't understand the concept of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY???
     
TETENAL
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Taking away guns = Stopping this from happening isn't a reality.

That is what I was talking about.
If by "stopping this" you mean this will never happen, then you are right. But reducing access to guns reduces the number of such events. You think it's not worth to save some lives just because you can't save all?
     
His Dudeness
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gee4orce View Post
Why can't America amend the 2nd amendment again ? "Right to bear arms in times of war or national crisis only" ?

America thinks it's still in the days of the Wild West. In civilised countries, people don't tote weaponry. They don't treat other members of their society with utter distrust and contempt (re: New Orleans)

Strange, also, that Canada and Switzerland (I believe) have equally high gun ownership yet virtually no gun crime (by comparison).
Well, us across the pond don't like the government telling the people what they can and can not have. It's the other way around. I don't know how it works in the UK, but people tell the government what to do and not vice versa.

And what do you care? You're thousands of miles away in a country where you have to ASK the government if you can own a gun, right?
     
TETENAL
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Y3a View Post
You don't understand the concept of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY???
You don't understand the concept of MONOPOLY OF FORCE. It's civilisation.
     
Dakarʒ
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by His Dudeness View Post
And what do you care?
Perhaps he dislikes senseless violence as much as the rest of us?
     
Kevin
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
I hope you mean go on killing sprees and not introduce gun laws.
Neither. I mean use instances like this to further their political zealot agenda.
     
Sky Captain
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:33 AM
 
Andrew Kehoe
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Dakarʒ
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Neither. I mean use instances like this to further their political zealot agenda.
...such as introducing gun laws?
     
Powerbook
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Y3a View Post
The countrys that don't allow citizens to own guns also seem to keep them as prisioners more often than not. (China, USSR etc)
Muhhahaha, get your facts straight.
The U.S.A. have worldwide the most peoples in prison or under other judicial measures. Yeah, talk about personal responsibilty. Right.

--
U.S. Prison Population Tops 2 Million
1 in 142 US residents now in prison
America's prison population topped 2 million inmates for the first time in history on June 30, 2002 according to a new report from the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
U.S. Prison Population Tops 2 Million

--
US Has the Most Prisoners in the World
WASHINGTON - Tough sentencing laws, record numbers of drug offenders and high crime rates have contributed to the United States having the largest prison population and the highest rate of incarceration in the world, according to criminal justice experts.
A U.S. Justice Department report released on November 30 showed that a record 7 million people -- or one in every 32 American adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole at the end of last year. Of the total, 2.2 million were in prison or jail.
US Has the Most Prisoners in the World
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His Dudeness
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Perhaps he dislikes senseless violence as much as the rest of us?
So do I, but one of these days, people will realize that trying to control an "object" ie gun, is not going to stop the senseless violence. It has not yet done so, and will not ever do so. You can not legislate violence, which is something people think happens with laws.
     
Dakarʒ
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:40 AM
 
Stop it? No. Decrease it? Maybe.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:43 AM
 
Does it seem odd to anyone else that this happens every day in Baghdad, because of us, and no one gives a sh!t....
     
ghporter
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
...such as introducing gun laws?
Introducing "feel good" gun laws that get a politician a name but do absolutely NOTHING about people who ignore laws would not help anything. Putting more police, with more and better training, on the streets would help. Paying them as if they were important to public safety would help too. Reining in gangs and drug distributors (I'm not talking about your buddy with three pot plants, I'm talking about the people who are played like puppets by Colombians who would slit their mothers' throats if they thought they'd make a profit from it) would help too. Interestingly enough, the two groups are actually one in many areas.

And as has been pointed out, passing laws that allow HONEST, LAW ABIDING CITIZENS to protect themselves with firearms would help too. Restricting the freedoms of the honest citizen does nothing to reduce crime. In fact, the shooter at VT took advantage of the fact that he knew NOBODY around him would be armed, and was able to kill more people because of that. Washington D.C. has the most restrictive gun laws in the U.S. (recently overturned by a circuit court, by the way), and look at the crime rate there. Another note about D.C.: its laws are passed by Congress, and I place before the assembled the track record of gun laws as crime deterrents in D.C. as a warning that Congress is NOT to be trusted with public safety-they screw it up EVERY TIME. What we need is better enforcement of existing laws by more, better trained police officers who are paid properly, NOT new, more restrictive laws that will ONLY impact the law abiding citizens of this nation.

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Dakarʒ
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Introducing "feel good" gun laws that get a politician a name
But would you call it sociopathic to do such a thing? (in response to this incident)
     
His Dudeness
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Stop it? No. Decrease it? Maybe.
I believe people have been saying "maybe" for decades.
     
His Dudeness
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Moderator View Post
Does it seem odd to anyone else that this happens every day in Baghdad, because of us, and no one gives a sh!t....
Please. I've been serving for almost 19 years. Trust me, it's not our guys in uniform blowing themselves up with bombs and killing innocent people.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by shabbasuraj View Post
Bush is going to implement a 'academic' marshall program and situate one armed individual disquised as a student in each university classroom in the US in response to this shooting.
OMG. That would be a good job. Think how much those marshalls will learn, sitting in on all those lectures, and not only not paying tuition, but getting paid for it.
     
SirCastor
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Apr 18, 2007, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by His Dudeness View Post
So do I, but one of these days, people will realize that trying to control an "object" ie gun, is not going to stop the senseless violence. It has not yet done so, and will not ever do so. You can not legislate violence, which is something people think happens with laws.
You said almost what I was going to say. You cannot legislate moral behavior, and we're dealing with culture which is largely without moral constraint. Most of us follow general acceptable codes of behavior regarding life and liberty, beyond that we cry out in the defense of people being able to behave the way the desire. You cannot legislate "good behavior", especially in a society where the people are so distant from their government.

Congress has gotten into the habit of trying to make laws that force people to live a certain way. That's not their job. Parents and Communities need to be teaching these things.

edit: I need to throw this out there for the sake of establishing how I feel. I hate guns, Frankly they scare the pants off of me. I personally believe that the 2nd amendment is in place to protect the people from abuses by the government, not to guarantee and any Tom, Dick, or Harry can pack heat. While I don't like guns, and I wish there were a way to manage them better, I don't see gun control laws as a valid solution. I'm a fence-sitter on the issue because of that.
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design219
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by His Dudeness View Post
one of these days, people will realize that trying to control an "object" ie gun, is not going to stop the senseless violence.
Yes, but some "objects" are more dangerous than others. The US tolerates countries having conventional weapons, but not nuclear.

Guns can kill from a tower, lesser objects cannot.
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
Yes, but some "objects" are more dangerous than others. The US tolerates countries having conventional weapons, but not nuclear.

Guns can kill from a tower, lesser objects cannot.
How about dropping an anvil from the top of a tower?

But I agree. If there were no handguns in the US (as there are none in South Korea—they're illegal) Cho would still be venting his homocidal urges writing his crappy plays.
     
Nicko
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by His Dudeness View Post
So do I, but one of these days, people will realize that trying to control an "object" ie gun, is not going to stop the senseless violence. It has not yet done so, and will not ever do so. You can not legislate violence, which is something people think happens with laws.
So making guns illegal to possess in some countries hasn't reduced their gun violence rate?
Quick google:

Japan has 5 murders per 1 Million People
USA has 43 murders per 1 Million People

In Japan guns are illegal.

So you're saying that if the US made it completely illegal for anyone to own a gun that it would have NO effect on gun violence?
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:26 AM
 
I'm not sure Japan is a fair comparison exactly. Their culture is just too different. Are there any European nations where its completely illegal to own a gun that you could compare the US to?
     
Tiresias
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Nicko View Post
So making guns illegal to possess in some countries hasn't reduced their gun violence rate?
Quick google:

Japan has 5 murders per 1 Million People
USA has 43 murders per 1 Million People

In Japan guns are illegal.

So you're saying that if the US made it completely illegal for anyone to own a gun that it would have NO effect on gun violence?
This is true. In New Zealand, there is a lot of gang violence among the Polynesian community. 9 out of 10 of these incidents are stabbings. A while back one dude got stabbed in the face at school. Pretty vicious. But he lived to tell the tale. If handguns were readily available, he'd have been shot and killed, as would any number of people.

The idea that outlawing guns would massively reduce gun-related violence is not controversial. It's common sense.
     
Gossamer
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
The idea that outlawing guns would massively reduce gun-related violence is not controversial. It's common sense.
See Kevin?
     
Dakarʒ
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:33 AM
 
(Statement of my opinion which has points of logic to it). It's common sense.
     
His Dudeness
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Nicko View Post
So making guns illegal to possess in some countries hasn't reduced their gun violence rate?
Quick google:

Japan has 5 murders per 1 Million People
USA has 43 murders per 1 Million People

In Japan guns are illegal.

So you're saying that if the US made it completely illegal for anyone to own a gun that it would have NO effect on gun violence?
Yep. And I'll let you rub it in my face as soon as you collect every single firearm in the country. Now go to Newport News right outside the Shipyard and start.
     
His Dudeness
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
See Kevin?

That's common sense according to YOUR viewpoint. That doesn't make Kevin's viewpoint wrong.
     
Gossamer
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:43 AM
 
I don't think you understand. He previously didn't believe people thought that view was common sense. I was just showing him that at least some people do think it's common sense.
     
 
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