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Let's take a look at where we are, ideologically speaking. (Page 5)
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 18, 2015, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
One doesn't have to reach the level of getting flagged to be a misogynist.

This isn't an argument Gamergate is a misogynistic movement, only a note the low flag rate isn't proving the converse.
I, and most I know, were flagged just for using the tag while not even addressing anyone at all (that's how Dawkins got flagged, pissed him off royally, too).
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subego
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Jul 18, 2015, 12:36 PM
 
Well, Dawkins can show you this one elevator trick... feminists hate it!


People ringing false positives don't tell you whether the movement is misogynist.


Let me put it this way... I associate Gamergate with [adjective] because the obsession with who Quinn had banged was creepy AF.


It must be made clear however, I'm about as sure as one can be you didn't do anything creepy, and the existence of creepy doesn't invalidate other arguments Gamergate is making.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 18, 2015, 01:06 PM
 
Quinn banging a million people doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother anyone of note (it's only a distraction forwarded by Quinn, Kotaku, RPS, and Polygon). What's disconcerting is that she was banging a pair of games journalists and then soon after they started promoting her game without disclosure. That's what set it all off.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 18, 2015, 01:13 PM
 
The good news, however, is that GG has been wildly successful and all of the games media sites now have disclosure rules, where there were none before, because the Society of Professional Journalists came down on them like a ton of proverbial bricks over multiple breaches in professionalism, not just the "Quinnspiracy".
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subego
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Jul 18, 2015, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Quinn banging a million people doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother anyone of note (it's only a distraction forwarded by Quinn, Kotaku, RPS, and Polygon). What's disconcerting is that she was banging a pair of games journalists and then soon after they started promoting her game without disclosure. That's what set it all off.
The idea wasn't pushed on me by Quinn or those other players, it was pushed on me by watching Aristocrat's video rant.

At the time, the community picked this as the public face of the movement.

Likewise, 4chan was pretty involved, and while I think whether one can consider them sexist or not is complicated, they don't mind acting sexist.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 18, 2015, 04:07 PM
 
Leveling criticism at certain feminists isn't the same as attacking women in general, just like criticizing Baptists isn't the same as attacking all of Christianity.
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subego
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Jul 19, 2015, 12:44 PM
 
I agree with your statements, but have lost the thread of where it connects.

The reason I got Gamergate is [adjective], is because...

1) Who Quinn bangs is irrelevant. I mean literally irrelevant. She has zero, absolutely zero ethical obligation as a game developer not to bang game jorurnalists.

2) Before Baldwin came up with the term "Gamergate", it was called "Five Guys and Fries", because that's the number of people Quinn's ex gave evidence* she banged... only one of them even being a game journalist.


For whatever legitimate points Gamergate has, they heavily damaged themselves by presenting the argument with an "oh yeah... Quinn's a whore and raped her boyfriend" cherry stuck on top. I didn't get that narrative from Quinn, and SJWs, I got it directly from Aristocrat's video. Again... about someone who has zero ethical obligation in this scenario.

Did the counter-movement do everything in its power, including using this, as a means to shut down dissent? Absolutely, and I'll call them out for it, but the people who started this behaved like a bunch of pigs.


*And Christ... how skeevy is this?
( Last edited by subego; Jul 19, 2015 at 01:27 PM. )
     
Jawbone54
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Jul 19, 2015, 02:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Leveling criticism at certain feminists isn't the same as attacking women in general, just like criticizing Baptists isn't the same as attacking all of Christianity.
Yeah, but those Baptists...c'mon...
     
subego
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Jul 19, 2015, 03:17 PM
 
And these so-called "moderates" sit on their thumbs saying nothing while the Baptists keep on doing what Baptists do.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 19, 2015, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Yeah, but those Baptists...c'mon...
Which Baptists? There's like 1000 different types.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 19, 2015, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I agree with your statements, but have lost the thread of where it connects.

The reason I got Gamergate is [adjective], is because...

1) Who Quinn bangs is irrelevant. I mean literally irrelevant. She has zero, absolutely zero ethical obligation as a game developer not to bang game jorurnalists.

2) Before Baldwin came up with the term "Gamergate", it was called "Five Guys and Fries", because that's the number of people Quinn's ex gave evidence* she banged... only one of them even being a game journalist.


For whatever legitimate points Gamergate has, they heavily damaged themselves by presenting the argument with an "oh yeah... Quinn's a whore and raped her boyfriend" cherry stuck on top. I didn't get that narrative from Quinn, and SJWs, I got it directly from Aristocrat's video. Again... about someone who has zero ethical obligation in this scenario.

Did the counter-movement do everything in its power, including using this, as a means to shut down dissent? Absolutely, and I'll call them out for it, but the people who started this behaved like a bunch of pigs.


*And Christ... how skeevy is this?
Really couldn't care less what others did, or how Quinn is/was/or will be perceived. However, none of that is in the correct order, and half of it is made up entirely (not by you, but by the framers of "the Narrative"), with Quinn, Wu, and Sarkeesian creating their own attacks against themselves. Why? Because it's profitable to be a SJW feminist in distress. #giveyourmoneytowomen Hah!

Zoe Quinn is a Terrible Person (but not why you think) · How to not SUCK
Zoe Quinn Lied About Me in Front of Congress - Crime & Federalism
Cronyism, lies and censorship: What Zoe Quinn and gender ideologues bring to gaming (part 1)
Zoe Quinn: Cyber victim or Cyberbully? - Crime & Federalism

She's a wretched, vile person, and anything bad that did land at her door was karma. She and her band from helldump actually harassed and bullied a furry/transgirl until she killed herself and that was quite a while before GG started.
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Jul 19, 2015, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Really couldn't care less what others did, or how Quinn is/was/or will be perceived.
I appreciate this, but the question of how one could get the perception Gamergate is [adjective] involves those things by necessity.

I'm not sure what you're claiming is out of order.

Is Quinn a slimeball? No question. However her slimeballitude has nothing to do with banging people.

When (other) people bring up how many people she's banged, I'm going to go "WTF?" because it's irrelevant to Gamergate, and it's irrelevant to her being a slimeball.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 19, 2015, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I appreciate this, but the question of how one could get the perception Gamergate is [adjective] involves those things by necessity.

I'm not sure what you're claiming is out of order.

Is Quinn a slimeball? No question. However her slimeballitude has nothing to do with banging people.

When (other) people bring up how many people she's banged, I'm going to go "WTF?" because it's irrelevant to Gamergate, and it's irrelevant to her being a slimeball.
It's not when she used sex for power and took advantage of others. Think of it more as a PSA, warning others to stay clear of her, she's a living embodiment of a social disease.
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subego
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Jul 19, 2015, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's not when she used sex for power and took advantage of others. Think of it more as a PSA, warning others to stay clear of her, she's a living embodiment of a social disease.
I got that PSA from the Aristocrat video, which gave evidence she curbstomped WizardChan, and did the same with 4chan's Girl Game Developer fund, while playing fast and loose with the money in her own fund.

The irrelevant stuff makes it look like a vendetta.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 20, 2015, 12:35 PM
 
A vendetta against Quinn and 3WFs in general? Yeah, there's something to that, and it isn't unwarranted.

In other news: https://twitter.com/Gawker/status/623159907689304064

A solid GG win, not that I feel it'll fix what's wrong there, if anything can.
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Jul 20, 2015, 01:06 PM
 
"I'm for improving the lot of the disadvantaged... and Nick Denton is a swell guy"

I've always wondered how these two can exist together comfortably inside the same head.
     
subego
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Jul 20, 2015, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
A vendetta against Quinn and 3WFs in general? Yeah, there's something to that, and it isn't unwarranted.
There are warranted vendettas and there's, well... coming off like a misogynist.

Aristocrat's video went off on how developer X was brigaded by the game journalism community based on very little evidence. 100% legit complaint.

The way they argued their case: here are developer Q's private statements they were really nasty to their ex-boyfriend, why isn't the game journalism community ruining her career?

At best, they're using an argument they supposedly deplore to support their case. At worst, they're genuinely trying to ruin this person's career.

Male developer X: let's fix this wrong.
Female developer Q: let's perpetrate the same thing which happened to X.

If someone comes away from this noting how it walks like a duck, I'm forced to agree.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 20, 2015, 08:36 PM
 
SJ feminists...



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Jul 21, 2015, 12:05 AM
 
I think the point of the second one is she's calling "shitlord" on herself.
     
subego
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Jul 21, 2015, 01:28 AM
 
What I posted above wasn't really correct (I was a little sleepy when I posted it), but I don't really see incongruity here.

1) Whistling and catcalls should stop.
2) I hate that those are (were) things I use(d) to validate my worth.
     
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Jul 21, 2015, 07:02 AM
 
Drag queens banned from Pride event 'because they may offend transgender people' - News - London Evening Standard

So, what they're saying is that drag queens are TOO gay for their parade? That's f*cked up.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 21, 2015, 07:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What I posted above wasn't really correct (I was a little sleepy when I posted it), but I don't really see incongruity here.

1) Whistling and catcalls should stop.
2) I hate that those are (were) things I use(d) to validate my worth.
That wasn't it, she plainly claims she isn't "worth men's notice". She's upset that other women are being catcalled but she isn't, it's pure jealousy. Which is what shaming other women to cover their bodies is all about, anyway (and why 3WFs are fond of burkas).
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subego
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Jul 21, 2015, 07:24 AM
 
My bad...

I thought she was saying there's a culture change was in the rate of catcalls rather than her getting older.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 21, 2015, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think the point of the second one is she's calling "shitlord" on herself.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What I posted above wasn't really correct (I was a little sleepy when I posted it), but I don't really see incongruity here.

1) Whistling and catcalls should stop.
2) I hate that those are (were) things I use(d) to validate my worth.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That wasn't it, she plainly claims she isn't "worth men's notice". She's upset that other women are being catcalled but she isn't, it's pure jealousy. Which is what shaming other women to cover their bodies is all about, anyway (and why 3WFs are fond of burkas).
"To my great shame, the thought of not being worth men's notice bothers me, even though I'm a seasoned feminist and I should no better."

First statement was correct. Woman realizes she falls into the trap of feeling validated by demeaning means? Shaddim is giving her shit for the great crime of admitting that sometimes emotions and ideals can come into conflict and she's irrational.
     
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Jul 21, 2015, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
"To my great shame, the thought of not being worth men's notice bothers me, even though I'm a seasoned feminist and I should no better."

First statement was correct. Woman realizes she falls into the trap of feeling validated by demeaning means? Shaddim is giving her shit for the great crime of admitting that sometimes emotions and ideals can come into conflict and she's irrational.
That's giving her more credit than she's due.
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The Final Dakar
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Jul 21, 2015, 09:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's giving her more credit than she's due.
"To my great shame, the thought of not being worth men's notice bothers me, even though I'm a seasoned feminist and I should know better."
What am I interpreting wrong?
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jul 21, 2015, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What am I interpreting wrong?
That it isn't driven by jealousy.
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Jul 21, 2015, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That it isn't driven by jealousy.
What's your context for jealousy, though? She doesn't mention anyone other than herself.
     
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Jul 21, 2015, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What's your context for jealousy, though? She doesn't mention anyone other than herself.
She's obviously upset that, likely due to age, weight, or changes in men's tastes, she's no longer getting her due, while 2/3rds of other women are. Reeks strongly of jealousy to me.
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Jul 21, 2015, 01:53 PM
 
Now I'm sliding back to my initial interpretation.

Okay, she's jealous because of younger women. I found the article that's from, and she mentions specifically it's being in her 40's which has caused the decline.

Isn't it the conditions society has set up which is making her jealous?

Note that there are some solid biological underpinnings to this. I'm not claiming society randomly (or even vindictively) created this state of affairs. There are dozens of reasons why being attracted to youth is an adaptive advantage, not the least being it's what stops us from murdering children for being so damn annoying and needy all the time.

The thing is, we're intelligent enough we only need to stick with our biology if we choose. We can use society to override it if we want.

Maybe, we should keep the not murdering part, but society can (and probably should IMO) not see older women as disposable, which is what happens between mid to late-thirties.
     
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Jul 21, 2015, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Now I'm sliding back to my initial interpretation.

Okay, she's jealous because of younger women. I found the article that's from, and she mentions specifically it's being in her 40's which has caused the decline.

Isn't it the conditions society has set up which is making her jealous?

Note that there are some solid biological underpinnings to this. I'm not claiming society randomly (or even vindictively) created this state of affairs. There are dozens of reasons why being attracted to youth is an adaptive advantage, not the least being it's what stops us from murdering children for being so damn annoying and needy all the time.

The thing is, we're intelligent enough we only need to stick with our biology if we choose. We can use society to override it if we want.

Maybe, we should keep the not murdering part, but society can (and probably should IMO) not see older women as disposable, which is what happens between mid to late-thirties.
Young men are the ones who "catcall", likely 9/10 times. They're going to do that to women that are young (breeding age), that's basic biology. She's simply reached an age where the men (who will generally still find her attractive) know better.
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Jul 21, 2015, 08:13 PM
 
Male Christian feminists (yeah, it's a thing):




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subego
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Jul 21, 2015, 11:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Young men are the ones who "catcall", likely 9/10 times. They're going to do that to women that are young (breeding age), that's basic biology. She's simply reached an age where the men (who will generally still find her attractive) know better.
I don't disbelieve this, but do you have any survey demographics on this?

I find zero.
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Male Christian feminists (yeah, it's a thing):
Are they really all getting choked up?

Dear God...this is why I'm taking my guys on a mandatory camping trip this winter.
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 12:46 PM
 
Camping prevents feminism?
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Camping prevents feminism?
It's not about preventing feminism. It's about not losing a certain level of masculinity, or at least experiencing it for once.

In our group, we teach them that being Christian men will make them better boyfriends, sons, husbands, fathers, etc. However, "Christian men" doesn't mean being some kind of aggro football-playing psychopath. For us, it means being strong, but gentle, understanding, but firm, etc.

To understand why I'm taking them camping, you'd have to know my particular group of students. Out of around 60 guys, maybe 5 of them actually do anything outdoors, ever. That's okay (and I'm a geek myself), but again...my guys need a bit of help.
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
It's about not losing a certain level of masculinity, or at least experiencing it for once.
I'm not down with this either, as now you're implying camping is masculine. Women like the outdoors too. Camping, as far as I can imagine, promotes self-reliance. Or preparedness. Again, neither is the domain of a specific gender.

Truth be told, I'd be fascinated with a discussion as to what entails or promotes masculinity.
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Truth be told, I'd be fascinated with a discussion as to what entails or promotes masculinity.
Different thread?
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 01:50 PM
 
Seems appropriate. Give me a while.
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Camping prevents feminism?
"Gays prevent camping"

- Scott Walker (paraphrased)
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not down with this either, as now you're implying camping is masculine. Women like the outdoors too. Camping, as far as I can imagine, promotes self-reliance. Or preparedness. Again, neither is the domain of a specific gender.

Truth be told, I'd be fascinated with a discussion as to what entails or promotes masculinity.
There's also the angle of:

1 male, teenage camper + 1 female, teenage camper = 3


(I know there's about to be a new thread in the family, but I'm impatient)
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 22, 2015, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's also the angle of:

1 male, teenage camper + 1 female, teenage camper = 3


(I know there's about to be a new thread in the family, but I'm impatient)
I'm not getting to it today, deadline. Tomorrow or someone else can beat me to it.
     
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Jul 22, 2015, 09:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
It's not about preventing feminism. It's about not losing a certain level of masculinity, or at least experiencing it for once.

In our group, we teach them that being Christian men will make them better boyfriends, sons, husbands, fathers, etc. However, "Christian men" doesn't mean being some kind of aggro football-playing psychopath. For us, it means being strong, but gentle, understanding, but firm, etc.

To understand why I'm taking them camping, you'd have to know my particular group of students. Out of around 60 guys, maybe 5 of them actually do anything outdoors, ever. That's okay (and I'm a geek myself), but again...my guys need a bit of help.
Yeah, you can tell by the video those poor fellas have been emasculated and brow-beaten within an inch of their lives, to the point that they're apologizing for being male. That's just... The answer, of course, is be a man, not just a "guy". Be strong, not forceful. Stand for what you believe, but don't allow yourself to get drawn into fighting. Respect and honor your partner/spouse, but never be a doormat.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 23, 2015, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
(I know there's about to be a new thread in the family, but I'm impatient)
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not getting to it today, deadline. Tomorrow or someone else can beat me to it.
Okay, now I don't care. Sorry, I can be capricious like that. I assure you, whatever any of you were going to say, I disagreed, however.
     
Jawbone54
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Jul 23, 2015, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's also the angle of:

1 male, teenage camper + 1 female, teenage camper = 3
You're halfway to being a student pastor.

There have been times that felt like 50% of my job is avoiding opportunities for rampant fornication.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 23, 2015, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
There have been times that felt like 50% of my job is avoiding opportunities for rampant fornication.
All of us have been in that situation where we're stuck upholding dumb rules our company set down.
     
Jawbone54
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Jul 23, 2015, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
All of us have been in that situation where we're stuck upholding dumb rules our company set down.
I'll let you talk to the CEO.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 23, 2015, 01:20 PM
 
Hell no, that guy has a crazy temper.
     
subego
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Jul 23, 2015, 01:29 PM
 
Why is it a dumb rule?

Seems like Liability 101.



Edit: ooooooh. Never mind
     
Jawbone54
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Jul 23, 2015, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Why is it a dumb rule?

Seems like Liability 101.
On the serious side of it: situations where a HS senior's girlfriend had a secret abortion despite his pleading, being at the hospital with a 15-year-old having a baby, and being present as another youth leader had to delicately tell parents that their kids were busted going at it in the campground prayer chapel are pretty much all the history I need to say that I'm in agreement with the upstairs "CEO with a crazy temper" (only quoted so it's clear I'm not siding with the Philistines).

I wouldn't try to force anyone here to agree with me, but when I teach students about abstinence, I approach it practically as much as biblically.

Another derail.
     
 
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