[Ryan Heid]

I currently have a G4/400 with 320 MB of RAM. My machine is pretty sluggish sometimes while opening browser windows, using Safari with a lot of windows open and while using many programs at once (don't have the option of using less programs at once).

I want to upgrade my machine, but what do I need to do? Processor upgrade? RAM upgrade? If you suggest upgrading the processor, please post a link to a page with information on the upgrade.

TIA.

[Lateralus]

For your machine, I suggest all of the big three: Processor, RAM and video card.

You can take your machine to 1.5GHz/2MB L3 for only $475.

Your machine needs RAM, especially if you're currently running or intend on running OS X. I suggest an additional 256MBs for $43.99 to take you to a system total of 576MBMBs.

And lastly, you're probably running the stock Rage 128 video card. To take advantage of Quartz Extreme, you'll need to upgrade to a Radeon or a GeForce. You could go the eBay route and pick up a flashed 64MB Radeon 8500 or GeForce 3 for around $60-80. Or, if buying new is something you insist on, you can pick up the 128MB Radeon 9000 Pro for $150.

So, depending on whether or not you insist on picking up the new Radeon 9000 over the cheaper flashed cards on eBay, you could pretty much transform your machine for under $600.

[Lateralus]

I'm assuming that your G4 has an AGP slot. If it does not, scratch all of the above.

[Ryan Heid]

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
I'm assuming that your G4 has an AGP slot. If it does not, scratch all of the above.

Yep, it's AGP. Thanks for the advice, man. I think I'm going to do this project one peice at a time. I'll do the video card last, since I have a shitty monitor.

[Lateralus]

No problem.

Just keep in mind that Quartz Extreme has been proven to speed up system responsiveness by up to 30%. This includes things like the fluidity of the interface, such as minimizing and scrolling, to things that you would never normally associate with the graphics card such as browsing through your files in Finder and launching applications.

The reason for this is that normally the responsibility for generating the user interface is put on the CPU. Quartz Extreme takes that weight off of the processor and puts it on the video card. This works out well because the graphics processor on the video card is quite a bit more versatile for things such as screen effects than the CPU anyways, and because taking the demand off of the CPU for creating the GUI allows the CPU to dedicate that much more power to whatever task you are doing, such as application launching.

My point is that with OS X, the graphics card has become a critical part of the system. And while I'm not saying that waiting to upgrade your video until you have upgraded your memory and your processor is a bad thing, you might not want to discount the importance of the video card so quickly.

And check back with us as you go through your upgrade process. There are many G4 AGP owners who are now trying to decide between upgrading their current machines or buying a new system, and first hand accounts are always a good thing to be able to look at before deciding.

[Ryan Heid]

Quartz Extreme is already a part of Panther, I'm just not taking full advantage of it now with my Rage 128, correct?

[Holigen]

Youre not taking any advantage of it

[Lateralus]

Correct.

Anything older than a Radeon or a GeForce is not advanced enough to handle the user interface demands of OS X. So the responsibility for creating the GUI remains on the CPU.

[fiesta cat]

Originally posted by Ryan Heid:
Quartz Extreme is already a part of Panther, I'm just not taking full advantage of it now with my Rage 128, correct?

Even if you had a better PCI card, and used the PCI/QE hack, it still wouldn't be advisable. It impacts your CPU and at 400mhz, it might be very noticeable.

[BenN]

You might also want to consider getting a larger, faster hard drive.

IIRC, the 400MHz `Sawtooth` G4 came with a 10GB drive; this is really too small for using with OS X (swap requires minimum 10% of HDD space to be free, I think).

New 80GB and 120GB drives are inexpensive these days, with more cache memory (get a 7200rpm with 8MB cache, if I were you). Even if you get more RAM, OS X and apps still like to page to the disk, so a faster disk will result in faster system response.

If I was in your shoes, I would consider upgrades in the following order:

1) More RAM. At least a 256MB stick, 512MB would be better. OS X loves RAM, and its pretty cheap now. Crucial is a good brand.

2) New Hard Disk. 120GB (7200rpm, 8MB cache) would be good; I`ve had good experiences with Hitachi & WD drives.

3) GPU (graphics card). Should speed up the GUI response.

4) CPU (processor). Worth considering, but the most expensive upgrade of the lot.


Before you splash out on the above, IMO its worth adding up the costs of all the upgrades you`re considering, because selling your tower, and then buying a newer machine might make more sense overall. CPU upgrades in particular are relatively expensive, and (IMHO) are not always worth it.

My $0.02.

[Nacente]

Yes, an upgrade of processsor is possible and a good option.

[typoon]

I have an Upgraded 450 G4 Sawtooth. this is what I did in order.

1. More RAM I have 896 megs in that Machine
2. Hard Drive 7200 RPM 40-120 Gigs
3. Video Card. it definitely made my machine feel faster.
3a. Pioneer SuperDrive DV-06
4. Processor I upgraded to an 800MHz G4 just to hold me over til I have the money for a G5


Now I also have a Dual 800 which I'm going to upgrade with a DV-07

[bbales]

I have a G4 400 MZ machine as well, but not a Sawtooth. It's a gigabit ethernet model.

I'm using my PB at the moment, but I think my desktop has 768 MB RAM. I did that first, then I upgraded the processor last spring to a 933 MZ. Those two things made an enormous difference. It's like a new machine.

I TRIED to upgrade the video card. I bought one on ebay (haven't the slightest idea at the moment which kind, jsut that it was better than the original, which is what you have, too). BUT -- it woldn't work with my Studio Display monitor. Looking around on various web sites led me to the conclusion that even if I got an adaptor it might not work with the machine. So i let that go. I may eventually change my mind (especially after reading these posts about the strain on teh CPU). But the machine and the monitor are nearly 4 years old and I was thinking it wasn't that smart to continue investing money in the monitor. I'd love to get a flat panel, but I don't want to spend the cash at the moment. And the monitor still works great.

Hoipe this helps. I figure even without the video card upgrade I'm going to get at least another year out of this machine, which has served me very very well.

Oh -- I forgot. I also have two external firewire drives, both 80 MB. I use them for extra space and for backup. The original hard drive is only 20 GB.

[DrBoar]

I upgraded my G4/400 with a ATI8500 and it boostad games a bit but nothing else. Then a year later I got a GigaDesign 1.2 GHz CPU and it made a world of a difference . I would not bother with dual upgrades or the very high end/price single ones but on the other hand not go below 1 GHz either. Many new games state 800 MHz as the minimum.

[Ryan Heid]

OK, I'm an idiot. I don't know what I was thinking, but the computer is NOT AGP, it's PCI. Here's a screenshot from System Profiler:



What would be your recommendations for a G4/400 with PCI graphics. I'm sure the memory would stay the same, but what's a good PCI graphics card and CPU upgrade. Also, if it's PCI graphics, then why does the slot that the Rage 128 is plugged into look different than the other, open PCI slots?

Sorry about the confusion...

[Lateralus]

A PCI graphics machine is a little less of an upgrade beast than an AGP graphics one. But it is still definately a machine you could stick with for a while longer.

The best processor upgrade for your machine would be the PowerLogix 1.1GHz 750GX G3 upgrade with 1MB of L2 for $350. Don't let the G3 name fool you, the 750GX is a phenominal processor that is definately a leap ahead over the previous G3 and is a great deal faster than any G4 at the same clock speed in non-AltiVec tasks.

The best graphics card you could upgrade to is the newly announced and soon to ship 128MB Radeon 9200 PCI for $129.

The slot your video card is in is indeed a PCI slot. But it is a special high-bandwidth PCI slot, created specifically for video. It operates at 66MHz whereas the other PCI slots operate at 33MHz. It actually offeres almost as much bandwidth as 2x AGP.

Normally, Quartz Extreme requires an AGP slot in addition to a Radeon or a GeForce. But some years back, a hack was developed called PCI Extreme! (can be had at MacUpdate.com) that allows Quartz Extreme to be enabled on any PCI Macintosh with a Radeon or a GeForce. It doesn't work particularly well on PCI Macs older than yours because their PCI slots really didn't offer enough bandwidth. But it works perfectly on your machine (I had a B&W G3, which uses the same motherboard as your machine, with a Radeon PCI card and Quartz Extreme ran very fluidly). A very simple hack, simply launch the installer and reboot. If you decide you no longer wish to use it, launch the uninstaller and then reboot.

So, while you don't have as much of an upgrade path as you would if you had an AGP machine, you can still transform your machine for under $500.

[Ryan Heid]

Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
A PCI graphics machine is a little less of an upgrade beast than an AGP graphics one. But it is still definately a machine you could stick with for a while longer.

The best processor upgrade for your machine would be the PowerLogix 1.1GHz 750GX G3 upgrade with 1MB of L2 for $350. Don't let the G3 name fool you, the 750GX is a phenominal processor that is definately a leap ahead over the previous G3 and is a great deal faster than any G4 at the same clock speed in non-AltiVec tasks.

So, I'm turning my G4 into a G3, but the G3 will be faster than the G4 I have now?

[Lateralus]

Originally posted by Ryan Heid:
So, I'm turning my G4 into a G3, but the G3 will be faster than the G4 I have now?

Haha... Yes.

A 1.1GHz 750GX G3 holds up well against a 1.3GHz G4.

I'll quote myself, from another thread:

And I would not be worried at all about going back to the G3. IBM has been developing the G3 over the years, just as Motorola has been developing the G4. The G3's design is the only one that has actually improved over the years. The G4 in your machine is the 7400 or the 7410. They were the fastest G4s ever developed. Motorola had to change the design of the G4 to get past 550MHz, and after changing it they came up with the 7450/7455 (the current itteration of the G4). The 7450/7455 design is much more inefficient than the 7400/7410 design. A 550MHz 7400/7410 can keep up with a 733MHz 7450/7455. The reason for this is something called pipeline stages. The pipeline is basically what the data moves down to get processed. The longer the pipeline, the longer it takes for data to get processed. The 7400/7410 used a 4-stage pipeline design. The 7450/7455 uses a 7-stage design. So it takes data much longer to get processed on the 7450/7455 than it does on the 7400/7410.

While Motorola had to jump to a 7-stage design to break 500MHz, IBM has been much more resourceful with the G3 and has been able to stick to a 4-stage design while going all the way up to 1.1GHz. For this reason, and the fact that the 750GX G3 has 1MB of L2 cache which is 4x what the Sonnet in question has, the 750GX G3 is faster than any G4 clock-for-clock in non-AltiVec tasks. Meaning, if you're an OS 9 user, or you don't use any high-end or AltiVec optimized applications, the G3 would be the faster choice.

[Ryan Heid]

OK, great! thanks again!

[jyumibe]

Hi, I'm in a similar situation. My machine is AGP, G4/400 with 320MB RAM. I'm thinking about converting it to a MP3 and backup server, connected to my home stereo and TV. The main things I need for this are a new harddrive (probably a 120GB, with8MB buffer) and a new video card (with s-video out).

Does anyone know which video cards support s-video out? From what I can tell the Radeon 8500 does and the GeForce 3 doesn't. I'd assume that the 128MB Radeon 9000 does as well, but I'm not sure that I want to shell out that much for it.

I probably won't do the RAM or the processor for what I'm going to use it for. Though maybe the RAM as it's cheap.

Thanks for suggestions. This thread's been really useful.

[yikes600]

I had the same computer as you (G4 PCI/400MHz) and done my best to keep it current. They're very upgradable machines. It's suprisingly fast and should last a good few years longer:
G4/600MHz upgrade from OWC
1GB RAM
Radeon 9200 PCI 128MB
80GB 7200 RPM/8MB hard drive
DVR-107 8x Superdrive
Airport Extreme 54Mb via PCI card
USB 2.0 via PCI card

Just some ideas for you. Granted, there's a point where it makes more sense to buy a new machine rather than to upgade your old one -- but a new PowerMac is $2000 and your Yikes G4 still has plenty of life yet.