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l008com · 01:32 AM

No Rosetta
Turns out I have more PPC apps than I realized. I bet most people will. All of my daily use apps are intel, but I still have plenty of older ones that I really can't replace. Like the app to use my Agfa scanner. They stopped making scanners some 10 years ago. And the app that runs my IRISPen. They have newer software but you can't download it. You basically have to buy a new scanner to get the new software. AppleWorks 6. No I don't create documents in AppleWorks, but I still come across them from time to time.

The point is, I think Apple really jumped the gun on killing PPC apps.

Spaces
So spaces and expose are joined. But they took away all of the graphical feedback that tells you what space you are in. No more menubar item, no more middle of the screen graphic that pops up when you switch spaces manually. It's really kind of a pain.

Black & White
Apple is going crazy taking the color out of icons. All of the icons in mail, the finder and iTunes are now all black and white. It adds so much time when you have to sit there and read all the same of things rather than going right to the item you want because it's the only red item. Or in the case of mail's toolbar items, you have to mouse over and wait for the tool tip. I'm really NOT a fan of this new found fondness of grayscale icons that apple is embrace.

Scroll-Bars
The new arrow-less scroll bars are neat if you have a laptop. Or one of apple's bluetooth trackpads. But if you have a desktop with a mouse, it's a real pain in the ass. The only way to scroll is to click on the box and drag it. But what do you think happens when you have a huge document and try to scroll this way? You jump all over the place. Apple went a little too iPad-Like with that one.

Dock Badges
The dock badges, the little red number icons that appear on your apps, like Mail.app
Apple has shrunk them. I don't know why but depending on the size of your dock, they may no longer be readable. Kind of annoying.

Server
I'm not running OS X Server on my desktop. But of course I had the Server Admin apps in my Apps folder so I can connect to other Macs that ARE running OS X Server. The Lion update appears to have taken all my Server Admin apps away. That's also very annoying.

That's all for now. I'm sure there will be more. Feel free to add your own.

tightsocks · Jul 4, 2011, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by l008com

Scroll-Bars
The new arrow-less scroll bars are neat if you have a laptop. Or one of apple's bluetooth trackpads. But if you have a desktop with a mouse, it's a real pain in the ass. The only way to scroll is to click on the box and drag it. But what do you think happens when you have a huge document and try to scroll this way? You jump all over the place.

Does this mean that scroll-wheels on mice don't work anymore???

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 04:47 AM

I'm sure they do. My Apple Pro mouse doesn't have one. I found another tough spot for the new scroll-bars: the terminal. After running command for an hour, it's very difficult to scroll up just a few lines past the top of the window, using the cursor.

P · Jul 4, 2011, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by l008com

No Rosetta
Turns out I have more PPC apps than I realized. I bet most people will. All of my daily use apps are intel, but I still have plenty of older ones that I really can't replace. Like the app to use my Agfa scanner. They stopped making scanners some 10 years ago. And the app that runs my IRISPen. They have newer software but you can't download it. You basically have to buy a new scanner to get the new software. AppleWorks 6. No I don't create documents in AppleWorks, but I still come across them from time to time.

The point is, I think Apple really jumped the gun on killing PPC apps.

I have that same feeling. I'm staying away from Lion for a while for now.

An interesting development in the last week or so is that Apple is now permitting virtualization of the regular (client) version of Lion. If they would also permit virtualizing Snow Leopard, then this issue might be mitigated.

Originally Posted by l008com

Spaces
So spaces and expose are joined. But they took away all of the graphical feedback that tells you what space you are in. No more menubar item, no more middle of the screen graphic that pops up when you switch spaces manually. It's really kind of a pain.

This sounds like the sort of thing they tend to fix in 10.7.2 or something like that.

Originally Posted by l008com

Black & White
Apple is going crazy taking the color out of icons. All of the icons in mail, the finder and iTunes are now all black and white. It adds so much time when you have to sit there and read all the same of things rather than going right to the item you want because it's the only red item. Or in the case of mail's toolbar items, you have to mouse over and wait for the tool tip. I'm really NOT a fan of this new found fondness of grayscale icons that apple is embrace.

It's the natural step after they did it to the folders in 10.5. Don't like it either.

Originally Posted by l008com

Scroll-Bars
The new arrow-less scroll bars are neat if you have a laptop. Or one of apple's bluetooth trackpads. But if you have a desktop with a mouse, it's a real pain in the ass. The only way to scroll is to click on the box and drag it. But what do you think happens when you have a huge document and try to scroll this way? You jump all over the place. Apple went a little too iPad-Like with that one.

I think the idea is to use a scroll wheel or the touchpad equivalent. All new desktop Macs come with a mouse that supports scrolling in some manner, and it has been this way for since 2005. Since all computers sold before that date are not supported by the new OS, they probably figure that they can get away with removing the scrollbars now. A new mouse isn't that expensive, and the current Magic Mouse has a nice heft to it, even if I prefer a steeper curve.

Originally Posted by l008com

Dock Badges
The dock badges, the little red number icons that appear on your apps, like Mail.app
Apple has shrunk them. I don't know why but depending on the size of your dock, they may no longer be readable. Kind of annoying.

Again, something that might be fixed in 10.7.2 or thereabouts. I guess they're assuming that everyone likes their Docks nice and big.

Originally Posted by l008com

Server
I'm not running OS X Server on my desktop. But of course I had the Server Admin apps in my Apps folder so I can connect to other Macs that ARE running OS X Server. The Lion update appears to have taken all my Server Admin apps away. That's also very annoying.

That's all for now. I'm sure there will be more. Feel free to add your own.

The only real problem I have with Lion is the lack of Rosetta. Yes, I know that Apple has telegraphed that change quite clearly for years, but there isn't really anything I can do about it. I have several old apps that I use very rarely, and they can't be replaced. Nothing wrong with 10.6 right now - I guess I'll stick around for a while. I was never going to upgrade until at least 10.7.2 anyway.

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 05:24 AM

I do have a copy of 10.5 server virtualized "just in case". I use it as a client. But still, that's a pain in the ass solution. We really need rosetta.

About the mouse... you give too much credit to the mighty mouse. Mighty Mice scroll well for about their first month of existence, then they ball gets all clogged up and usually you can only scroll in one direction, sometimes you can't scroll at all. When you take all of those people into account, there will probably be lots of annoyed people.

I agree that it's time for a new mouse for me, but I don't want another mighty mouse for the reasons stated above. I also don't want a wireless mouse that wastes batteries. If Apple would make a magic mouse that was USB, I'd buy it in a second. It's pointless for me to have a wireless mouse on my desk.

P · Jul 4, 2011, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by l008com

I'm sure they do. My Apple Pro mouse doesn't have one. I found another tough spot for the new scroll-bars: the terminal. After running command for an hour, it's very difficult to scroll up just a few lines past the top of the window, using the cursor.

Shift+Pageup should take you one full screen up, at least, and I think that Shift+the arrow keys will enable slower scrolling. Or just make the window bigger...

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 05:32 AM

I'm talking about windows whose content is huuuuuuuuge. Like the contents of an inbox in mail that has 20,000 emails in it. And you want to scroll down to a specific email from last week. It's well off the "Current" view but the slightest movement of the scroll bar brings you back months.

P · Jul 4, 2011, 07:29 AM

Then I suggest Page Down. Also, what exactly do you want to achieve that you could in the old system? A continuous scroll up or down by holding down on the button is the only one I can think of, and you can usually do that by just holding an arrow key.

ChrisF · Jul 4, 2011, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by l008com

The Lion update appears to have taken all my Server Admin apps away.

As with all previous versions of Mac OS X, the Server Admin Tools are a separate download.

Big Mac · Jul 4, 2011, 09:33 AM

Is there a System Preferences option to get traditional scroll bars back?

cgc · Jul 4, 2011, 12:12 PM

Isn't this typical Apple though? They go too far with changes then respond to the backlash and revert back to a compromised state. In any case, someone will find a preference hidden within the OS to use normal/legacy scrollbars.

I have been an early adopter of OSX from 10.0 to 10.6 but will wait with 10.7 since it seems like a bit of a change to consolidate two platforms that really should remain disparate. It's like combining a clothes iron and a washing machine, sure you make both but do they really go together?

Cold Warrior · Jul 4, 2011, 12:35 PM

I haven't used it yet, but the Lion features page looks compelling. I think Apple has done a good job taking a few of the more portable iOS elements.

Does Mission Control really need a switched indicator? If you're not where you were, you're someplace else, and if that's not where you want to be, go back into Mission Control and switch there.

Airdrop looks slick, the remote control/view that integrates with one's appleid, FileVault 2 FDE (including externals), and the lion server upgrade/apps for cheap.

moonmonkey · Jul 4, 2011, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

I'm talking about windows whose content is huuuuuuuuge. Like the contents of an inbox in mail that has 20,000 emails in it. And you want to scroll down to a specific email from last week. It's well off the "Current" view but the slightest movement of the scroll bar brings you back months.

Yes thats not good.
But on the plus side the new mail search and filtering functions are mind glowingly powerfull.

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 05:47 PM

Lion is smart. When you have a mouse connected, you see normal scroll bars by default. When a trackpad is connected you don't. An option in System Preferences can reverse the default. Scroll wheels work the same as they always have.

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

[b]So spaces and expose are joined. But they took away all of the graphical feedback that tells you what space you are in.

I don't think that's quite true. Mission Control is a gesture away and it should be pretty obvious what space you're in.

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by chabig

Lion is smart. When you have a mouse connected, you see normal scroll bars by default. When a trackpad is connected you don't. An option in System Preferences can reverse the default. Scroll wheels work the same as they always have.

You never see a "normal" scroll bar, the difference is a disappearing new scroll bar vs an always-present new scroll bar.

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

Dock Badges
The dock badges, the little red number icons that appear on your apps, like Mail.app. Apple has shrunk them. I don't know why but depending on the size of your dock, they may no longer be readable. Kind of annoying.

Where did you get this from? In Apple's Lion video you can see a Mail badges at 0:09 seconds and 3:17. The badge looks the same size as today.

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

You never see a "normal" scroll bar, the difference is a disappearing new scroll bar vs an always-present new scroll bar.

It looks pretty normal to me, with a scroll thumb and up and down arrows.

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by chabig

Where did you get this from? In Apple's Lion video you can see a Mail badges at 0:09 seconds and 3:17. The badge looks the same size as today.

I'm getting this from my dock, which clearly has smaller badges.

Originally Posted by chabig

It looks pretty normal to me, with a scroll thumb and up and down arrows.

Where are you seeing up and down arrows?

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

Where are you seeing up and down arrows?

They are in the normal position, at the bottom of the scroll bar.

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 06:16 PM

Got pics?

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

Got pics?

The one I linked to isn't working for you?

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 06:17 PM

I didn't even notice, it looked like ad text, not a link...
Anyhoo, what version of Lion are you running? None of my apps, including iPhoto, have the arrows.

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 06:21 PM

Sorry about the "ad text" appearance. I can see that now.

I'm not running Lion. That pic was from AppleInsider. If you're running Lion, it's quite possible that Apple changed the behavior between beta releases and they are no longer as depicted in that article.

I must say that since long ago when I got my first scrollbar mouse, and today with my Magic Trackpad, I can't think of a time I ever moused to the scrollbar. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure some will miss it, if that's how Lion behaves.

Cold Warrior · Jul 4, 2011, 06:24 PM

The pic is also of iPhoto '11 in full screen mode. It may have particular behavior or Apple could have taken the shot with scroll bars active.

chabig · Jul 4, 2011, 06:29 PM

Let's hope we find out on Wednesday!

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 06:29 PM

Yeah that's probably it. Also I downgraded back to iPhoto 09 because 11 is horrible. But i'm seeing no arrows anywhere, which is quite a problem in big scrolling boxes. Works great on my laptop though.

Chongo · Jul 4, 2011, 08:34 PM

I'm using MS Office X and Quicken 2005. I have no problem updating Quicken, but I guess I'll opt for Open Office.

l008com · Jul 4, 2011, 08:40 PM

I would definitely recommend open office over MS office.

l008com · Jul 5, 2011, 01:34 AM

I retract most of my complaint about Spaces. While I still think that there should be a "pro" option that lets you use Spaces and Expose separately like the old days... you can now give the desktop in each space it's own background image/color. There's no better indicator than that.

freudling · Jul 5, 2011, 02:46 AM

Scroll bars peeved me off but I'm getting used to them. You can drag the scroll bar up and down. You just have to activate first then boogie over to it and click and hold to drag up and down as per normal.

l008com · Jul 5, 2011, 02:49 AM

Right but the point is that on huge windows, dragging the box scrolls super fast. So it's impossible to go up a few lines. After a full day of full time use, this is becoming a huge problem for me. Particularly in the terminal. I basically can't scroll back at all. As soon as I drag the box, I'm going all over the place.

l008com · Jul 5, 2011, 03:15 AM

You know, if apple would just make a USB magic mouse, I would buy it the day it came out, and I wouldn't be bitching about these not-mouse-appropriate scroll bars.

l008com · Jul 5, 2011, 03:37 AM

Also, I just want to reiterate AGAIN that after a full day of use, I can say that the joining of Expose and Spaces really slows you down. Activating mission control groups windows, which makes it hard to see all of the windows of any one app. So you have to switch to that app first, then activate "application only" expose, since "all windows" expose is dead. Mission Control will be good for regular users. But for "power users", it's a big giant brake pedal.

pechspilz · Jul 17, 2011, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

I retract most of my complaint about Spaces. While I still think that there should be a "pro" option that lets you use Spaces and Expose separately like the old days... you can now give the desktop in each space it's own background image/color. There's no better indicator than that.

Absolutely. I'm having a hard time to adapt to Mission Control too. I just don't like it... too much information. I loved the way Spaces was implemented pre 10.7.

solofx7 · Jul 17, 2011, 04:11 PM

The one thing that I have not figured out how to enable/get to work like it used to is:
When you click and hold on a open program in the dock, it shows all of the open windows, even the ones that are minimized.
I think that this was previous "on" by default and now and option that I-
a. cannot find
b. cannot assign to clicking and holding the mouse button down like it used to be.

Big Mac · Jul 17, 2011, 08:22 PM

What happens when that's done in Lion, solo?

solofx7 · Jul 18, 2011, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

What happens when that's done in Lion, solo?

It appears to be the same as right clicking on the icon.
Its weird that I cannot find this in the settings.

Art Vandelay · Jul 18, 2011, 11:50 AM

I don't have a trackpad right now, but I believe Application Expose is triggered by swiping three fingers down on a trackpad. You can also get it by Right-clicking > Show All Windows.

phoenix78 · Jul 20, 2011, 12:11 PM

What upsets me is no more 2D arrangement of desktops like old spaces used. I had 4 desktops and had specific things in each and it was easy to do a single space swap U,D,L,R or diagonally. Now i have to scroll through all the desktops to get the one i want. really annoyed.

I also hate that the hot corner for 'all windows' expose is gone. I used it all the time.

Disappointed!

Spheric Harlot · Jul 20, 2011, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by phoenix78

I also hate that the hot corner for 'all windows' expose is gone. I used it all the time.

Four-finger swipe down.

fisherKing · 01:34 PM

here's where i'm lost; how do i switch between open apps??
i used to command-H apps i wanted open but not onscreen; switched with the App Switcher.
now i can't FIND the app switcher, and an open app with a hidden window does NOT show up in mission control...
ugh.

can i customize Launchpad? i only see my Apple Apps there; want to add others, hide some...

EDIT: seriously, how do i switch between open apps??? am so used to my process above; if i have to change, so it goes..

phoenix78 · Jul 20, 2011, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Four-finger swipe down.

Yep. (for me its 3 fingers UP). I liked the hot corner but i guess the 3 finger swipe wont be too hard to get used to.

I like the pinch for launchpad, and i like launchpad too. Although i have all of my most frequently used apps on the dock so its a bit of a shrug. Maybe i can live without the dock if i arrange all my frequent apps on the first page of apps. Im too used to the dock though.

Helmling · Jul 20, 2011, 01:49 PM

I want to customize Mission Control...

Can I name the desktops? And can I stick Launch Pad in there? I could lose the dock if Launch Pad was in Mission Control.

Oh and for Pete's Sake, can I change the Mission Control icon? It's god awful.

Helmling · Jul 20, 2011, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by phoenix78

Yep. (for me its 3 fingers UP). I liked the hot corner but i guess the 3 finger swipe wont be too hard to get used to.

I like the pinch for launchpad, and i like launchpad too. Although i have all of my most frequently used apps on the dock so its a bit of a shrug. Maybe i can live without the dock if i arrange all my frequent apps on the first page of apps. Im too used to the dock though.

hot corners still work.

fisherKing · Jul 20, 2011, 02:47 PM

i usually keep 2 (or 3) windows open in safari (each with about 7 tabs); safari seems to insist on making a new space for each window... (or so it seems, so far).

i want to ORGANIZE launchpad! i don't need 100 apps to show, only 20. sucks if that's not do-able (will wait for the inevitable shareware fix).

too much animation! i don't need to be entertained EVERY TIME i want to answer or start an email....yikes!

-Q- · Jul 20, 2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by fisherKing

i want to ORGANIZE launchpad! i don't need 100 apps to show, only 20. sucks if that's not do-able (will wait for the inevitable shareware fix).

It works just like iOS. You can drag icons on top of each other and create folders.

Athens · Jul 20, 2011, 04:31 PM

Hows the speed, is it slower, or faster then SL?

fisherKing · Jul 20, 2011, 04:53 PM

i can't believe you cannot re-order spaces... really annoying...

ajprice · Jul 20, 2011, 05:05 PM

Don't really know yet about speed, I'm downloading updates and its indexing the drive. I like it so far, now that I've sorted the scrolling out as much as I can. What would be ideal (IMO) is the disappearing scroll bars, that appear when you hover over the edge of a window, instead of just appearing when you scroll. That way, they show up when you scroll, but if you want you can drag the bar. I've had a quick look at Launchpad, if I start dragging things around and putting them in folders in launchpad, does this also move them around the actual file system in the Finder?