[wallinbl]

Forgive me if the title seems somewhat inflammatory, but it is a decent summary of what I'm about to ask.

When Katrina hit, this country mobilized into action - donating money, clothes, time, etc to help out *1. When faced with greater tragedy and suffering in Africa, we do next to nothing. Subsaharan Africa is the only place in the world where the hunger problem is actually getting worse and not better. Children in Africa drink water that carries life threatening diseases because while the diseases will kill them later, not drinking water will kill them now. It's a terrible and horrible choice.

I'm not going to get into statistics or anything else, I think most of us here read enough to know about them. It's not just Africa - there are plenty around the world living in conditions that we wouldn't tolerate for Americans*2. When it's outside of our country, or even a short list of countries similar to our own, it seems that we just don't care that much.

I'm also not trying to preach or to say that I'm better than you - I'm not - I don't give anything to Africa either. Recently, though, it's really been inside my head, and I'd like to explore the subject a bit. So, please don't take this thread as an attempt to shame or guilt anyone into doing anything. I'd really just prefer to explore what affects our willingness to help others.


*1 I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't have helped with Katrina - please don't read that into what I'm saying. I think we should. I'm just curious why we draw the line along nationalistic borders.

*2 I know there are others on here from other countries, and I'm using "Americans" largely as an example - substitute any industrialized nation.

[wallinbl]

In order to not post and run without rendering an opinion, I'll say that the largest part for me is "out of sight out of mind". Things like Katrina are all over the news and all over everything. You don't hear much about the need for wells in Africa. It's something I hope to change.

[Powerbook]

Dude, Africa is a topic for gays, Frenchies and the U.N.
As long as no local dictator threatens the United States or their President, talks crazy stuff about WMDs or supports the spread of communism, no U.S. administration will care.


PB.

[dcmacdaddy]

Nothing worth exploiting so the people are not worth saving. I mean, come on, "Why don't we care about hungry Americans?" Do you know how many kids in this country live in poor families that don't get 3 meals per day?

[TETENAL]

We do care.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=293874

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Nothing worth exploiting so the people are not worth saving. I mean, come on, "Why don't we care about hungry Americans?" Do you know how many kids in this country live in poor families that don't get 3 meals per day?

You can get a free meal nearly every night of the week in most decent sized cities. As far as kids, if they're in school, the school will give them breakfast and lunch for free. I'm not suggesting that we are currently doing enough to provide, but we do some.

[Doofy]

The US gives loads of foreign aid to Africa. As do other western countries (i.e. Gordon Brown, the UK chancellor, has recently slated £8b aid for African education).

But there's a problem. While you still have idiots like Mugabe running things over there, the place is a bottomless well - no matter how much money we throw at it, the problem won't be sorted. We could possibly be in a situation where throwing money at it is actually helping the problem to continue - we're buying the fish, not the fishing rod.

While I don't agree with western governments sending their taxpayers' money out of the country (forced charity), I do believe in helping out voluntarily.

[Monique]

I am 47 years old, ever since I can remember Africa has been in one famine after another. After a while you stop believing it and realize that if they were in better political situations, there would not be any famine. Anyway don't you think in times like Katrina American people should concentrate on themselves for a while.

I agree with Doofy, that the U.S. and many Western countries give tons of money to Africa without seeing any changes. So, where is the money going to, not to help poor starving people but to dictators and their croonies.

If the Africans would really want to get out of the situation they are in, they would make the changes themselves. It is easier to depend on Western nations to feed your children instead of depending on yourselves to do something.

The only area where I think the Western nations can help, is through the United Nations peacekeepers (and they will have to start shooting some people here) and solve some conflicts or prevent some.

[Spliffdaddy]

[smacintush]

Geez, I actually AGREE with a Monique post…

[olePigeon]

The U.S. and other countries spend a ton of resources on many countries in Africa. There are a number of problems, however:

1. In some countries, local wars and dictators are taking the resources sent to those countries. They never make it to the people who need it.
2. In other areas, they're encouraged to grow rice, wheat, corn, and other grains in an area that couldn't possibly support it. If it's a desert, why would you grow rice?! Not only do these new plants drain the soil of valuable nutrients and moisture, but it kills of the indigenous plants as well.
3. As Monique mentioned, what incentive is there to work if you can get everything you need for free?

[Tomchu]

Even though I do feel sympathy for the people there, my opinion has always been that ...

a) If they wanted change, they would do something about it themselves (just like Monique said).
b) They should stop f***ing. Come on, it's not a hard concept ... sex = child.

[Nicko]

My theory is that most Americans are either selfish, ignorant about the issues, or apathetic.

Also, corrupt governments can't survive without being allowed to launder their money to western bank accounts, make deals with foreign companies, ect....

[PacHead]

Even dark people at the UN don't give a crap about dark people in Africa. The UN cares more about terrorists than poor, dark people in Africa. There's no profit to be made off of poor, dark people.

I believe the UN recently investigated Darfur, and they concluded that there was no Genocide taking place.

[Monique]

Besides power and money, how can those war lords be dissuaded from destroying their countries. General Dallaire knew that to keep the peace in countries like Rwawanda there will have to be some sacrifices; anyway a soldier job is to kill or get killed.

For centuries before the western men came to Africa, (and I am not saying that all Europeans that colonized Africa were fuzzy and nice and that they did not rape Africa of many treasures) they did survive just fine. So why do we have to hold their hands now?

[Jawbone54]

Monique, you've made some great points.

When I see pictures or video of the kind of shape that Africa is in, my heart goes out to them. The only problem is that my money is worthless there. As everyone else has pointed out, the money will fall directly into the hands of the corrupt.

If Africans ever realize a few things, then they'll pull themselves out of this, rather than have us drag them out. Fight to the death to keep the wrong people from running their countries and control your sexual urges. Surely they realize that AIDS is killing people off left and right. Promiscuity in America is somewhat risky as far as STDs are concerned. Promiscuity in Africa is suicidal.

Having said all of that, I do want to find an effective way to help.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Having said all of that, I do want to find an effective way to help.

Sponsor a kid directly.

[maxx9photo]

More than $100 billions for war in Iraq and I don't think that much has been provided by US to poor countries of africa and elsewhere. As long as there's no interests whatsoever such oil, natural gas, etc there will be no money spend from US. Iran next...

[Monique]

The sponsering thing does not work in reality; it works on tv but not in the real world. Again we take responsibilities for the parents that sit around and say we are poor, we are poor... And the U.S. gives billion of dollars to Africa, again most African countries can easily grow their own food without having to poach poor defenseless animals, without killing its neighbours, but they do not want to change their politics.

As a woman I remember our history of not being able to vote but with lots of courage many early feminist changed things for us, then came education, then came contraception. It is something that is feasable and women in Africa are the stronghold of their countries, they are the one that farm, take care of the house, the children. But, they have to realize that they have power and able to use it. Maybe then things can change for the best also for men.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Monique

The sponsering thing does not work in reality; it works on tv but not in the real world.

Yes it does. Been there, done that.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yes it does. Been there, done that.

You mean like that Chirstian Children's Fund? The one that was indicted over embezzelment? Sure it works great, I should start one up myself. I'll hire Sally Struthers.

I love the catch fraise for the Christian Children's Fund. "100% of all the money that we donate goes to charity." So if they donate 1/4 of a penny for every dollar you give them, 100% of that 1/4 penny will go to those needy children.

[idjeff]

Originally Posted by maxx9photo

...I don't think that much...

That's for sure

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

You mean like that Chirstian Children's Fund? The one that was indicted over embezzelment? Sure it works great, I should start one up myself. I'll hire Sally Struthers.

You realise that the above comment means absolutely nothing to a non-American, right?

I went with World Vision for a while.

[saab95]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Forgive me if the title seems somewhat inflammatory, but it is a decent summary of what I'm about to ask.

When Katrina hit, this country mobilized into action - donating money, clothes, time, etc to help out *1. When faced with greater tragedy and suffering in Africa, we do next to nothing.

Isn't it the purpose of the African governments to protect the rights of their respective citizens?

Subsaharan Africa is the only place in the world where the hunger problem is actually getting worse and not better. Children in Africa drink water that carries life threatening diseases because while the diseases will kill them later, not drinking water will kill them now. It's a terrible and horrible choice.

Perhaps their infrastructures would be better if they:

1. Did not ban DDT, which kills disease-bearing insects

2. Chlorinated their drinking water, since chlorine kills germs and microbes.

There, however, is one area where the Western nations are culpable. That is, protectionism. African farmers and industrialists are shut out of the Western markets due to tariffs and protective laws banning or restricting African imports.

Many African nations simply do not have all the resources to be self-sustaining nations, and they have to rely upon international free trade to sustain themselves. It would behoove America and other Western nations to re-examine these policies, which tend to keep African nations poor.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by saab95

There, however, is one area where the Western nations are culpable. That is, protectionism. African farmers and industrialists are shut out of the Western markets due to tariffs and protective laws banning or restricting African imports.

Is there something wrong with their internal markets? Some reason why Kenya can't sell to South Africa which sells to Senegal which sells to Egypt?

The US became the economic powerhouse it is today by building its internal markets, not by exports.

[saab95]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Is there something wrong with their internal markets? Some reason why Kenya can't sell to South Africa which sells to Senegal which sells to Egypt?

The US became the economic powerhouse it is today by building its internal markets, not by exports.

What is wrong with their internal markets is they cannot produce all the goods and services they need because they lack all the raw materials within their borders to do so.

And I disagree with your other comment- many of the large corporations in America which made America the Powerhouse it is today are MULTINATIONAL. They sell lots of goods and services overseas, and import lots of goods.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Even though I do feel sympathy for the people there, my opinion has always been that ...

a) If they wanted change, they would do something about it themselves (just like Monique said).

You're right. Those farmers with their fork should attack those dictators with machine guns and not bother much about losses, because in the end, it is for the good of the survivors.

And let's see how these guns fall in those rich hands, and how they get the cash to get them.

But noooo. It's all "good business". I can't wait to see the stupidities that will come out to excuse the market of small and bigger weapons in Africa.

b) They should stop f***ing. Come on, it's not a hard concept ... sex = child.

Yeah. Damn girls should just close their legs and them boys learn civilities like in the West.

The whole continent should convert into americanism. Africa could become "USA II" for their own sake.

Obviously, simplistic judgements are always appropriate when we fail to look at the local complexities. From a chair, in a comfortable living room where you depend on several levels of technologies, and political agreements to feed your house in cold or hot air, at the touch of a finger, and move that so-called "accurate" telescope on reality that you call television, everything is simple and make judgements thins as host. But heck these missionaries save souls!

What the rich countries of the West give to Africa, they take with the other hand. Blame it all on dictators, and you'll be half right. The other half is in your home; ask yourself, where the luxuries come from, and how they got to you, and parts of the answer explaining the ongoing misery of Africa will start to blossom in your mind.

More money is not the solution; sensible business and a good sense of ethics on our part will help a great deal, even if we do not have the total responsibility of what happens there, which I agree with. Africa needs to take its own destiny in its own hands; but would that be advantageous?

Having people in servitude is always better for business; total control, expanded possibilities for expansion, and if a dictator is in charge, it is even easier to look away, because it's "out of your own hands" and you have families to feed, whatever the cost.

[tie]

I don't think there is much of a comparison between Katrina and the situation in parts of Africa. Victims of Katrina really were victims of circumstances out of their control (well, with some major caveats). And reconstruction efforts will definitely give results very quickly, and also help out the US economy (so there's self interest as a motivator).

The fundamental cause of Africa's economic problems is and has been that population growth rates are too high. The second major cause is bad political systems. "Donating money, clothes, time, etc" just does not address these problems. There's no reason to think that they will give results, or will feed back to the benefit of the rest of the world. Until and unless fundamental problems are fixed, donating money is just a sink.

I don't know that these problems can be fixed from the outside. Major government-level commitments, including military force, are needed really to fix things, probably one country at a time, and this is not going to happen. In the mean time, perhaps very carefully overseen, closely-targeted donations can have beneficial effects. Removing trade barriers will also help borderline countries.

[saab95]

Capitalism is the real cure for Africa's problems

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by saab95

What is wrong with their internal markets is they cannot produce all the goods and services they need because they lack all the raw materials within their borders to do so.

No. Africa has more natural resources than the USA and Europe put together.

And Switzerland does quite well, despite having no natural resources at all.

Originally Posted by saab95

And I disagree with your other comment- many of the large corporations in America which made America the Powerhouse it is today are MULTINATIONAL. They sell lots of goods and services overseas, and import lots of goods.

They're multi-national today. I'm talking about the the latter half of the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries.

[saab95]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. Africa has more natural resources than the USA and Europe put together.

I'm talking about each nation individually. Not Africa, as though it were the United States of Africa, or if there were a "common market" system in Africa among African nations.

The biggest markets for African nations are America and Europe. Perhaps India, China, and Japan- also large markets- might also be accessible.

And Switzerland does quite well, despite having no natural resources at all.

Why is that? They engage in international trade, that's why. That only supports my point.

[porieux]

...

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Nothing worth exploiting so the people are not worth saving. I mean, come on, "Why don't we care about hungry Americans?" Do you know how many kids in this country live in poor families that don't get 3 meals per day?

In fact, exploitable goods even save from prosecution. Anyone remembering Ken Saro-Wiwa ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Saro-Wiwa ) who was murdered by the Nigerian regime? Many countries stopped payment and business relations with Nigera after that, The United States administration said openly that they could not afford to boycott another oil exporting country. Yeah right.


PB.

[Monique]

And how billions have we the West given to Africa and nothing much has changed. Do they really want to change?? And every year they come back and beg for more and nothing change; because they have no intention of changing.

[Tomchu]

Originally Posted by FeLiZeCaT

What the rich countries of the West give to Africa, they take with the other hand. Blame it all on dictators, and you'll be half right. The other half is in your home; ask yourself, where the luxuries come from, and how they got to you, and parts of the answer explaining the ongoing misery of Africa will start to blossom in your mind.

That is the single, most absurd thing that I've ever read. You think people like me are half to blame for the misery on the other side of the Earth? You don't even know who I am, where I came from, or what "luxuries" I have.

My parents came to Canada when I was 4 years old, not knowing a word of English. They both educated themselves in the language and culture, and have adapted. They currently both hold great jobs. I myself took up computers at a young age, taught myself everything I know, and currently hold a job as a hardware reviewer while I wait for my CS program to start at BCIT.

We all work hard. We don't suck the teat of society like many others do, and we give back what we've been given. The fact that you think you can blame me, or the "luxuries" that we've worked hard to gain, for the pathetic disputes, disease, and famine over in Africa lend insight into your own stuck-up and smug personality.

I want you to tell me three things: a) What have you done lately to help the people over there, b) How big is your house, and c) What luxuries of mine have anything to do with Africa.

Arm-chair psychologists and analysts piss me off.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

That is the single, most absurd thing that I've ever read. You think people like me are half to blame for the misery on the other side of the Earth? You don't even know who I am, where I came from, or what "luxuries" I have.

My parents came to Canada when I was 4 years old, not knowing a word of English. They both educated themselves in the language and culture, and have adapted. They currently both hold great jobs. I myself took up computers at a young age, taught myself everything I know, and currently hold a job as a hardware reviewer while I wait for my CS program to start at BCIT.

We all work hard. We don't suck the teat of society like many others do, and we give back what we've been given. The fact that you think you can blame me, or the "luxuries" that we've worked hard to gain, for the pathetic disputes, disease, and famine over in Africa lend insight into your own stuck-up and smug personality.

This is all nice and I acknowledge that as immigrants, you and your folks certainly had to work very hard, even if Canada is supposedly "one of the best countries in the world", which is not much of a statement in the end. But that has nothing to do with my reply to your simplistic statements of earlier.

The fact that you worked very hard to become a Canadian has nothing with the fact that lame statements like:

a) If they wanted change, they would do something about it themselves (just like Monique said).

and

b) They should stop f***ing. Come on, it's not a hard concept ... sex = child.

which assumes that all africans are brainless reproductive machines and are unable of thinking like you are.

As the child of an immigrant, you should be the first to react to stupid racial prejudice based on ignorance. But being an immigrant does not make you immune from that, and whatever you did for Africa may have been great, but your statements reflects very poorly on you.

I want you to tell me three things: a) What have you done lately to help the people over there, b) How big is your house, and c) What luxuries of mine have anything to do with Africa.

Arm-chair psychologists and analysts piss me off.

Just think about what you wrote and what it means, and you'll see there is no requirement in psychology to understand the meaning.

[Tomchu]

I am confident that my comments hold true for the MAJORITY of Africans in said poor countries. If a majority rebelled, what would happen? Do you think some small-time dictator's army of 600 could stand up against a rebellion of 40,000?

I think it's funny that you're unwilling to think about things in a broader light, yet you're quick to judge and blame me and my "luxuries" for the problems on the other side of the Earth.

I have a word for that.

[Spliffdaddy]

The luxuries I have are the result of my hard work.

If you want more luxuries - then get off your ass and work harder.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

The luxuries I have are the result of my hard work.

If you want more luxuries - then get off your ass and work harder.

Sorry man, but both this and tomchu's argument sounds pretty weak. Get off your ass and work harder?? We live in North America, the land of plenty where working harder always results in more money. That isn't so in many, many parts of the world, often through no fault of the people doing the working I might add.

Originally Posted by Tomchu

I am confident that my comments hold true for the MAJORITY of Africans in said poor countries. If a majority rebelled, what would happen? Do you think some small-time dictator's army of 600 could stand up against a rebellion of 40,000?

Clearly you know very little about Africa or the situation over there - because I know almost next to nothing besides what I've read here and there, and even I know this statement is ridiculous. Seems to me you're just spouting off your own solutions to a problem that's amongst the most difficult to solve in human history - and you don't even have a sweet clue what the situation is in the first place.



greg

[FeLiZeCaT]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

I am confident that my comments hold true for the MAJORITY of Africans in said poor countries. If a majority rebelled, what would happen? Do you think some small-time dictator's army of 600 could stand up against a rebellion of 40,000?

I think it's funny that you're unwilling to think about things in a broader light, yet you're quick to judge and blame me and my "luxuries" for the problems on the other side of the Earth.

I have a word for that.

"simplistic"?

So far, you have not been able to counter-argue with me relative to your prejudicial comments.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

Sorry man, but both this and tomchu's argument sounds pretty weak. Get off your ass and work harder?? We live in North America, the land of plenty where working harder always results in more money. That isn't so in many, many parts of the world, often through no fault of the people doing the working I might add.


Clearly you know very little about Africa or the situation over there - because I know almost next to nothing besides what I've read here and there, and even I know this statement is ridiculous. Seems to me you're just spouting off your own solutions to a problem that's amongst the most difficult to solve in human history - and you don't even have a sweet clue what the situation is in the first place.



greg

So your solution is that hard work is pointless - and the population can't overthrow their government.

Looks like they're screwed.

Great plan.

[Troll]

It's mostly ignorance about Africa. Voluntary ignorance. Because if you refuse to learn anything about Africa, then you don't need to imagine that you might be responsible for some of the sh1t going on there and might be able to do something about it. You'd also be shooting yourself in the foot of course, because there is more opportunity for smart people in Africa right now than anywhere else in the world. Southern Africa has been described as the US of the 21st century and a single trip to South Africa (that's a country) or Botswana would show you that Africans are not all poor, starving and corrupt.

Look back through this thread. Most people paint the whole continent with a single brush. Which leads to Mugabe = Mandela = Taylor = Obasanjou = Mbeki. Johannesburg = Mogadishu = Marrakesh = Harare = Maputo = Cairo. Every country is corrupt and poor and all Africans are starving. That's as far as most people in the West go. It's a security blanket. Pretend that all those lazy, corrupt, poor, uneducated, fornicating blacks have caused their own misery and there is nothing we can do about it.

I wonder how many of the people that have posted here have ever been to Africa and of the ones that have, how many have visited more than one country. There's as much diversity in sub-Saharan Africa or in North Africa as there is in Europe or on both American continents and yet when was the last time you heard an African saying that the US and Cuba and Brazil were all the same, or Italy, Poland and the UK were the same? Ignorance. That's all it is. And increasingly Africans don't mind it. Because a lot of Africans are exploiting the opportunities that Westerners are ignoring and thereby preventing the West continuing colonial exploitation under whatever name.

[Monique]

You cannot transfer your values to people that do not want them. Yesterday, I watched a show on the Congo and on squads that went around and raped very young and very old women to destroy their morales; now first questions what makes it ok in the minds of the rapists to commit such crimes and how easy is it to convince them to do it? And where are the other men to protect those women? It seems that men over think they are somehow superior to women if they are why are they acting like animals and why aren't they protecting the women?? Do you really thing if I were to give a few dollars to the foster care program the good Christians of that organization whould go and protect those women? Obviously not, do they (the rapists) want help, would they accept it, are they ready to change???