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Someone MUST know (Page 2)
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aliendezines  (op)
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Apr 19, 2003, 10:33 PM
 
More good advice to pass on....

Will post Monday....
Some drink from the fountain of knowledge... others just gargle it.


If all else fails.. buy a PC!
     
chicken_tastes_good
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Apr 20, 2003, 12:50 AM
 
Certainly, on windows it is folly to run amok without some sort of virus protection (or to fail installing all the security patches to your server). But that's Windows, where virii appear all the time ( I've never understood how Virus scanners can catch the latest virus... unless they can self update faster than the virus spreads).

However, other than your servers, you appear to be a Mac shop. Hence, no virus protection necessary.

The OS 9 architecture, by its system 6 and system 7 roots (and naturally before) wasn't built to be very extensible. Heck, Multitasking was a hack job before System 7. So the tricks that Norton has had to play to gain access to the OS 9 "kernel" most always make the system unstable. They do so, because the system they're hooking into wasn't designed to accept 3rd party interaction. So all Norton AntiVirus does is add a HUGE layer of interruption, and possible failure, into an OS that has been quite nicely refined into OS 9.2.2 The low level code that the Norton folks have written, by nature of the architecture they are interacting with, is VERY succeptible to flaws and easily leads to instability.

When working with an application as "finnicky" as Quark, who's instability is infamous (unless the system is in a perfect condition) the last thing you want it to add another layer of possible failure by running software (Norton) than in the end offers virtually NO protection and only uses resources. In fact, the people I know who run Quark, have a special set of extensions setup for Quarking, and reboot into that extension set EVERY time they use Quark, just to make sure that it is stable.

Without bad RAM and Norton, there's no reason you shouldn't have OS 9 uptime in the months (unless you run IE or other MS applications). In fact I have an 8.5 machine that runs 8-12 months between reboots, but it has the slimmest set of extensions possible (not even QT for the longest time).

So the brief summary is that OS 9 was not originally architected to accept "extensions" and in fact all extensions increase the likelihood of your machine crashing, execpt that the default (apple) extensions have been quite thoroughly tested by people who know the OS 9 internals and not by people who only think they know the internals.

And I admint that at times (booting off the CD) Norton can come in handy. But I will never again install it on my OS 9 and 8.5 machines and the idea of the need for Virus protection on a Mac is laughable - especially since virii for OS X are MUCH more likely to be developed than for poor, lonely, abandoned OS 9.

Oh, and Conflict Catcher, (which is quite well written) should prove out if it is indeed an extension that is causing your troubles.
And if you can't get authority to uninstall Norton, just turn off the extensions for a day or two (or a week) and see if it solves your problems. Actually switch your extension set to "Base" and add only the extensions needed for Quark, PS, and Ill. Then see if you can make it crash. If it solves it, tell your boss that Norton must go (from the Macs -> it will save them money that is otherwise wasted). If it doesn't, check the RAM (if you haven't already) and if it isn't one of those two, then try some of the other suggestions (graphics card, processor, HD, network, reinstall...), keep using Norton, and create a thread telling me the next time Norton catches a virus and saves your system from certain doom.


Such a lot of productivity lost just because people think Mac's need the same virus protection as Windows machines....
The empty can rattles the loudest
     
chicken_tastes_good
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Apr 20, 2003, 01:05 AM
 
Originally posted by mrl14:
Why are all you people bitching about Norton. There is nothing wrong with it.

Now if you have filesaver extensions then maybe it can cause issues, but norton can come in very handy in 9.

What alien should be doing, is install a fresh copy of 9 and work from that without adding anything extra.
Yes, running a FRESH copy of OS 9 is NOTHING at all like turning off Norton, is it? If there's nothing wrong with it, then why, HOW could you suggest doing a (drastic) reinstall of the operating system. This isn't Windows or OS X. Just open up Extensions manager and switch it to Base, reboot, and then add one by one (or a few at a time) only the extensions that you must have. Et voila! You have almost the equivalent of a "fresh" copy, but without wasting all that time.

... and shouldn't the fact that the "filesaver extensions" or the "Crash Guard" have been said by yourself, and others, to lead to instability, be an indicator toward the quality of the other Norton products.

Isn't it funny that something called "CrashGuard" can make your machine crash? Ironic?
The empty can rattles the loudest
     
aliendezines  (op)
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Apr 21, 2003, 12:01 PM
 
Monday Morning.....

Finally updated to 9.2.2
Got rid of all traces of Norton
VM is at 513 (or should I turn it off entirely?)

Rebooted of course....

Launched: Mail client, Quark, Photoshop (in that order)

Did an ad or two... had to update pictures in quark and FROZE.
so far.... just that once.
Some drink from the fountain of knowledge... others just gargle it.


If all else fails.. buy a PC!
     
spiznet
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Apr 23, 2003, 01:58 PM
 
Just to throw in 2 cents worth:

1) I don't think it was ever clarified: do you have the beige g3 with or without a g4 upgrade card? Make sure to keep the extension & control panel for the upgrade card going if you start deactivating things in EM.

2) don't use Conflict Catcher anymore, just use Apple's Extension Manager

3) don't use Virtual Memory at all. Photoshop will use the hard drive if it needs scratch space, but will run alot faster the more RAM you have. 256MB < $50

4) Throw away (or temporarily move) all your System Folder/Preferences, the crashing could be coming out of a bad one.

5) Did you do a clean install of 9.2.2, then restore important CP, Extensions, & Preferences?

6) don't use Copy Agent (was SpeedDoubler) if you are sending files to/from OSX server. We learned this the hard way with corrupted files.

7) make sure Norton FileSaver & Scheduler extensions are off.

lastly: 8) "Rebooting" does not always clear RAM memory: so use Shut Down, You cannot trust what OS9 tells about free Memory in the control panel. After leaving some programs, the system still can't reuse the memory supposedly "freed".

-Hope something clicks here...


     
tooki
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Apr 24, 2003, 01:05 AM
 
I'm sure you could find a Mac guy for less than $200/hr. (Around here, they go for $75-120/h, less if you buy hours in bulk.) Not to mention that you could find knowledgeable college kids for far less than that. What I don't recommend is letting PC technicians work on Macs (just as I don't recommend Mac techs for PCs). I think the lost productivity from having improperly maintained machines is probably costing the organization far more than what it would cost to get the Macs running by a professional.

My advice: If your Mac supports it (yours does), run Mac OS 9.1 if Quark is your staple application. I find that it runs better on 9.1 than on 9.0.x or 9.2.x.

Install a FRESH copy of 9.1 onto a cleanly formatted drive (zeroing is unnecessary; low-level formatting is impossible on modern drives). Remove unnecessary extensions like speech and the FBC Indexing Scheduler. Install fresh copies of your applications and install all available updates. Do this one at a time and test the system in between installs.

Make sure you install all the Quark updates (most likely, you're using Quark 4.x). Update it to 4.11 and don't forget to install the 411fixit Xtension.

Then start installing your fonts. Use ATM Deluxe's font checking facility to look for corrupted fonts. Corrupted fonts are a commonly overlooked source of crashes. Replace any corrupted fonts with fresh copies. If need be, contact the type foundry to receive fresh copies of the font files.

If you normally open Quark files off a server, see if you can eliminate crashes by copying files to the hard drive and opening them locally. If this solves the crashes, you may have network issues that need resolving. Make absolutely sure that your switch and Macs are talking happily... autonegotiation is often a sore spot, and also make absolutely, positively sure that your switch does not have spanning tree protocol active on any of the client ports -- this WILL cause network problems with Mac clients (as it also does with most PCs, too... spanning tree protocol is only supposed to be turned on on ports connected to routers).

tooki
     
staporn
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Apr 24, 2003, 07:33 PM
 
Yep, this is probably a fonts issue. How many fonts are loading at startup? Look in your System Folder/fonts/ folder you probably have way too many fonts in there. What are you using for font managment? ATM light doent count
     
aliendezines  (op)
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Apr 24, 2003, 07:35 PM
 
Not a font issue.. we use ATM Deluxe vs 4.6
Some drink from the fountain of knowledge... others just gargle it.


If all else fails.. buy a PC!
     
staporn
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Apr 24, 2003, 08:34 PM
 
Originally posted by aliendezines:
Not a font issue.. we use ATM Deluxe vs 4.6
Try this, remove the fonts from your System Folder/Fonts? folder and replace them with the fonts off an os 9 cd
put the fonts into a seperat folder off your HD and point ATM to it and see what heppens
     
tooki
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Apr 24, 2003, 10:51 PM
 
Originally posted by aliendezines:
Not a font issue.. we use ATM Deluxe vs 4.6
As I said above, you must specifically go in and make sure you don't have corrputed fonts (use the Verify function). Just using ATM Deluxe won't ensure that corrupted fonts don't cause problems.

tooki
     
Shaktai
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Apr 25, 2003, 01:39 AM
 
Finding the problem is always the hardest part. It has been a while, but I used to administer a Mac network with the same problems and for a non-profit with no budget. Sometimes you just don't have what it takes financially to solve the problem, but can at least reduce it.

Lot's of good ideas in the forum here though.

You raised the question of the internal battery. Yes, that can contribute to the problem. If you are having to reset the clock after a shutdown, then definitely replace the motherboard battery. Do that first as it is a "cheap fix".

Bad or cheap RAM is a distinct possibility.

Didn't see it mentioned, but with older Macs, I remember a distinct increase in freezes due to static. Are you in a "dry" climate? I was in Denver, and certain times of the year, problems increased dramatically, specifically due to static freezes. Having the mouse or keyboard suddenly just freeze is a good indication of static problems in dry climates. Try to keep the interior humidity above 25-30% but below 50%. I found that problem to be more common with older Macs then most PCs.

If in a dry climate with low humidity indoors, if you can't raise the humidity, try a grounding pad or strip by the keyboard. Anytime you get up and walk away and then return, get in the habit of touching the grounding pad before the keyboard or mouse.

Just some ideas, but they may not apply in your case. My experience was don't look for any one problem, because there may be many small ones. Do the things you can do with what you have to work with. Eliminate the obvious contributing factors. You probably won't eliminate the problem completely, but at least you can reduce the frequency.

Good luck!
     
Metzen
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Apr 26, 2003, 06:01 PM
 
An even quicker way to narrow down the problem is for this (for Random Freezes/Crashes):

Boot with all extensions off (Hold the Shift key down on startup and you should get "Extensions Disabled") This will eliminate ALL extensions as a possible culprit.

1) After the system is up and running, try launching some applications and just do what you regularly do to make it crash. Does it crash?

If no, it's most likely an extension conflict. Go through and enable each extension you want to use one at a time with rebooting between each time you've enabled them and testing to see if it crashes between each extension.

2)If yes, you've eliminated all extensions as the cause of your problem and are pretty well left with these few possibilities:

It's a font/preferences problem. Remove the "Preferences" folder from the "System Folder". Reboot with the method above. Keep playing around to see if it crashes. If no, reboot normally and see if your still experiencing crashes. This will eliminate ALL preferences files as a possible culprit.

3) If yes, remove the fonts folder in your system folder and replace it with the one off the MacOS 9 CD. Reboot as illustrated above. Do you crash? If no, reboot normally and see if your still experiencing the problem. This will eliminate ALL fonts as a possible culprit.

4) If yes, do a clean install of the system (meaning format your drive and reinstall Mac OS 9). After this step DO NOT reinstall any applications. Just play around with the operating system for an hour or so (surf the web, check email, etc.) Does it crash? If no, reinstall your applications one at a time playing around with your system after you install each application. This will selectively eliminate programs as a possible culprit, leading you to the program that is the problem.

If yes, it's a hardware problem.

If it's a hardware problem then report back here and I'll tell you how to go about detecting which peice of equipment is causing you problems.

Come back and report which step you can get to please, and we'll narrow this down for you.

These are troubleshooting steps from a certified technician. Essentially, it's all about process of elimination.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
E. F. Schumacher
     
lapinos
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Apr 29, 2003, 11:21 AM
 
Originally posted by aliendezines:
Not a font issue.. we use ATM Deluxe vs 4.6
aliendezines, an information nobody mentioned precisely:
We had a G4/400 that fas constantly freezing, getting worse with OSX:
I finally checked the RAM and found one module pf PC133 among the three PC100 memory modules.
I removed the PC133 module and now the G4 runs like a charm.
Haven't checked the PC133 module on another G4.
Hope this might help you.

greg from Europe
Lao_Tseu
     
cgc
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Apr 30, 2003, 03:07 PM
 
Hey, I got cross-eyed reading all the posts but have you increases the program's memory allocation? If I remember, you bring up the program's info screen (select the icon and command-click, then select "info" I think). Increase every program's memory allocation (e.g. Photoshop, IE, Quark, etc.). Do this on all computers and for all programs that are memory hogs.
     
Xterratop
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May 2, 2003, 02:45 PM
 
Wow! I've never read bunch of posts that went from one extreme to the next. One says it might be bad ram. the other says it might be Nortons, now another thinks its fonts. I'm just happy that I'm not in all that mess. I feel for you man. Personally, I think it might be a ram issue. Adding a new graphics card will only add more to the headache. If this is a ram issue, I have to say that maxing out your ram (and I mean max out that puppy and not just filling up every ram slot that you have with 4 different types of ram) is the best route possible. I don't believe in allocating ram. Yes, it works but when I look at upgrading a system/purchasing an new system, I max out the ram no matter what. I use Kingston brand ram for all 4 slow in my powermac....good quality ram and brand name. I know that its a struggle when you have to deal with upper management and convince them that they need to put the money out in order to have reliable computers.

I was in the same job situation and when I left this one company that would not upgrade their hardware or even listen to my reasons as to why my system keeps crashing,etc., I looked elsewhere and found a better job that supports both hardware and software. Afteer I left that mess, they came back with a counter offer and told them that I was not interested because they NEVER wanted to support my job in getting me better tools to do my job. If they can't give me good tools, then how the hell can I do my job.

Right now the job market is tight, so my advice is to stick with this company.....in the meantime, look elsewhere from something better. And if you're going to respond to my post, please be nice and don't bite my head off. I'm only trying to help.

     
chicken_tastes_good
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May 3, 2003, 03:01 PM
 
It seems she is no longer having problems and doesn't see the need to tell us what solved her problem.

As there have been a multitude of suggestions, I've been rather interested to see which potential problem was the problem.

Oh well, such is the live of the Macnn boards where people try to help you and then you don't even say thanks.

Or maybe she's still having problems but doesn't want to hear any more suggestions of how OS X would solve her woes.
The empty can rattles the loudest
     
qnxde
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May 5, 2003, 08:53 AM
 
Originally posted by aliendezines:
I have norton 2003 on my PC at home... Has caught many viruses coming through email. I have NO problems with Norton. But then again, I have a PC and not a Mac.
I am a qualified apple technician, blah blah blah. Anyway, I do this stuff for a living. Two things:

1. Norton for Macintosh is a horrible, horrible pile of junk and I wish it would just die. DO NOT install it on your system, it will only ever give you grief, and interrupt you with it's incessant warnings when you least want them. It digs hooks deep into the OS to block normal operations like opening files, etc so it can check for viruses (of which there aren't any), which can cause issues. It's basically just bad news. Remove at all costs. The only thing Norton is good for is when your hard drive dies, you boot off the CD and run it all there. Even then I'd prefer the DiskWarrior route. I repeat - remove norton.

2. Your random crashing problems sound suspiciously like bad RAM. Very suspiciously...I'd have that checked out as soon as possible.

You can't eat all those hamburgers, you hear me you ridiculous man?
     
sbjordal
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May 8, 2003, 01:24 AM
 
Originally posted by aliendezines:
What causes freezing issues....

Someone HAS to know in here why my Mac keeps freezing. ALL the time! At Random.
Finder unexpectedly quits.. what's up with that too?

I've posted before about freezing issues but I'm not getting any responses. I'm assuming no one has any inclinition?
Can anyone give me atleast a few reasons why, atleast something to point me in the right direction?

OS 9
Beige G4
400MHZ
256 Ram
20 gig hd
Networked
Virutal Memory MAXED out (another error too with "not enough memory")

PLEASE HELP!!!

1. Buy more memory, and turn Virtual Memory down to only one MB over the amount of RAM installed (default value)
2. Buy Diskwarrior and Norton Utilities and run those on your drive. (All the Virtual Memory will fragment your drive)
3. Install a new, clean system folder, copy or move over parts from the old system folder that pertains to the program giving you problems. See if the problem still exists w/ new system folder.
4. Perform Apple's quickfixes, like Rebuild Desktop, Start up with only Minimal set of extentions, run the hardware test cd, do the extention dance (half at a time)

Good luck
---
One XP Box, One Suse Box, One Blue & White,
One ibook, One iMac 17 FP, one 30 gig iPod and a mini
happy .mac customer, os9 free since 3/24/01
     
Scifience
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May 8, 2003, 09:39 PM
 
Originally posted by aliendezines:
<snip>

Beige G4

</snip>
Is there such a thing? aliendezines refers to a "Beige G4" in multiple posts.
     
nvaughan3
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May 10, 2003, 09:12 AM
 
sounds like you are working at a newspaper? If so, I feel your pain. Our classified people who simply take calls and process the daily ads have g3 imacs, our advertising graphics people all have brand new g4's, and our entire editorial department is still using 7200 120's and 9600 180's. Our main photo computer is even a 9600, running 8.5. Newspapers are notoriously crappy at keeping up with technology.
     
 
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