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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Applications > Safari 4 Beta

Safari 4 Beta (Page 5)
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Simon
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Great, it confirms that I'm not crazy and the speedup isn't just imaginary
It would be to know what 'it' is. I see two Macs, several browsers and times. I have no idea what was tested and under which circumstances.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:42 AM
 
Since the Sunspider tests were the ones that were quoted, I assume that's the benchmark that was run. Two systems were used, a Cube and a MacBook. The relative time differences (Safari 3 vs. Safari 4 beta) are rather similar.
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Simon
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:47 AM
 
But Sunspider is a JavaScript benchmark, right? IOW it has nothing to do with HTML rendering performance.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:48 AM
 
Does it really matter? Safari 4 "feels" faster for most, and while that could be attributed to placebo, I rather doubt it. I definitely found a speedup that really shouldn't be coming from the latest Safari 4 Dev + Webkit, which in turn brought a noticable speedup from Safari 3.

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OreoCookie  (op)
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:51 AM
 
Yes, I know. Most modern pages use JavaScript, so speedups in JavaScript performance will give you faster interpretation of modern websites. That's what I've written before, so I don't see the contradiction here. I haven't attributed the perceived gain in speed to improved html performance (I use WebKit nightlies anyway), but to improved JavaScript performance.
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:52 AM
 
The new tab arrangement looks like it will take time to get accustomed to, but I can see a certain logic in it. Tabs really are just a group of windows. On the other hand, it looks weird to have divisions within the window's title bar. I'll have to reserve judgment for a while.

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Feb 26, 2009, 09:56 AM
 
I think a lot of the disconnect comes from the smaller font, which we are not used to in title bars.

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Feb 26, 2009, 10:07 AM
 
I don't like the tabs at the top because it's inefficient. If I want to identify what tab I'm on, I need to search for the lightest tab, and read the title. On the old Safari, I just looked at the top center, and I knew.

I'm really surprised Apple went with dynamic tabs (as far as size is concerned).
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 10:13 AM
 
Dynamic tabs? I haven't installed it yet so I don't know what you mean by that.

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Dakar V
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Feb 26, 2009, 10:18 AM
 
There isn't a short-winded way of saying what I mean. In safari 3, all tabs line up starting left and are one size until you run out of space on the right.

In 4, they keep dividing the remaining space at the top among them, meaning the tabs keep "moving" and changing depending if you have 2, 5, 9....
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
To be fair, they aren't exactly responsible when it doesn't fit in with a custom theme.
Actually, on a platform that supports themes, they are.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
This is patently wrong. Less options = better usability.
+1 agree. (Although it's "fewer" not "less" )

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Feb 26, 2009, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gavin View Post
Some things I've noticed:
New HTML/CSS stuff is very cool:
http://webkit.org/blog/324/css-animation-2/
http://webkit.org/blog-files/leaves/index.html
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Nifty. I hope we can eventually just do away with Flash altogether.
http://www.apple.com/safari/welcome/ is the welcome page for Safari 4. The page that loads the first time you run it. If you view the code you'll see that it doesn't use Flash or Quicktime for the animation that plays, but rather the new CSS animation. It's really impressive.

http://images.apple.com/safari/welco...les/safari.css
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 11:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
There isn't a short-winded way of saying what I mean. In safari 3, all tabs line up starting left and are one size until you run out of space on the right.

In 4, they keep dividing the remaining space at the top among them, meaning the tabs keep "moving" and changing depending if you have 2, 5, 9....
Oh I see, dynamically sized tabs that divide the title bar. Yeah, it's an interesting choice. At least it can be reverted, though.

How is session management?

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Feb 26, 2009, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Does it really matter? Safari 4 "feels" faster for most, and while that could be attributed to placebo, I rather doubt it.
Exactly. Even on a modern dual-core machine, Safari 4 "feels" a bit faster, although the difference isn't mind-blowing. It's more like going from very fast to very, very fast. However, more importantly, on older machines Safari 4 feels enormously faster. It's gone from at best mediocre on single-core G4 machines (of which I have four... soon to be five) to quite reasonable... if we ignore Flash for the moment.

Furthermore, it seems like a lot of what holds up page loading is often JavaScript. HTML speed is important of course, but often times the "heavy" lifting slowing things down for a page is JavaScript, which is presumably why some recommend putting JavaScript at the end of the page whenever possible.

This perceived speedup on older machines is not surprising, given that the benchmark went from 36 seconds to 13 seconds on my Cube. It's not the 3X speedup that's so significant. It's the absolute amount of the saved time. Going from say 0.3 s to 0.1 s on a MacBook is not such a big deal. But going from say 3 s to 1 s on a G4 makes a world of difference.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 11:47 AM
 
I'm having a real annoying issue and have been since version 3 (I never used the web site before that so I don't know if it has before too.) My banks web site uses a cookie to store the computer that accesses it so you don't have to enter the e-mailed password every time you log on. With Safari 3 and still with the 4 beta, it does not save the setting "Remember this computer" but it does in Camino or Firefox. Anyone else have this issue? It stores other cookies just fine, and I tried the setting to have it accept all cookies.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yes, I know. Most modern pages use JavaScript, so speedups in JavaScript performance will give you faster interpretation of modern websites. That's what I've written before, so I don't see the contradiction here. I haven't attributed the perceived gain in speed to improved html performance (I use WebKit nightlies anyway), but to improved JavaScript performance.
The new Javascript engine was in the nightlies as well, so I doubt that's the difference.
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Feb 26, 2009, 12:06 PM
 
Are people seeing the speedup on G3s?

Originally Posted by CheesePuff View Post
I'm having a real annoying issue and have been since version 3 (I never used the web site before that so I don't know if it has before too.) My banks web site uses a cookie to store the computer that accesses it so you don't have to enter the e-mailed password every time you log on. With Safari 3 and still with the 4 beta, it does not save the setting "Remember this computer" but it does in Camino or Firefox. Anyone else have this issue? It stores other cookies just fine, and I tried the setting to have it accept all cookies.
I had a similar problem even in Safari 2. Luckily for me, while Safari still occasionally gives some hiccups, the hiccups are becoming less and less as Macs and Safari are becoming increasingly popular. However, I think what's happening here is the bank is updating the site to better support Safari.

Nonetheless, that's one of the reasons why I still keep a copy of Firefox on my computer, even though Firefox 3 feels so much slower than Safari 4.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
The new Javascript engine was in the nightlies as well, so I doubt that's the difference.
I thought Nitro was something different from Squirrelfish Extreme …?!?
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fisherKing
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Feb 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
 
something i'd like to see...automatic reloading of pages. i keep about a dozen tabs open at all times; news, weather, macnn forums...etc. everytime i go back to safari, i reload each tab. would be great to be able to set specific tabs to reload (at specific intervals).

something like that. makes sense??
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Feb 26, 2009, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's what I've written before, so I don't see the contradiction here.
There is none involving you. It's Eug's benchmarks. I asked about HTML rendering speed and as an answer I get two plots and a set of numbers that have to do with JavaScript performance. My question is if I'm missing something. Because if not, all of that has zero to do with what I asked.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by fisherKing View Post
something i'd like to see...automatic reloading of pages. i keep about a dozen tabs open at all times; news, weather, macnn forums...etc. everytime i go back to safari, i reload each tab. would be great to be able to set specific tabs to reload (at specific intervals).

something like that. makes sense??
Not entirely sure if its what you're looking for, but as e r i k has linked to so many times (thanks by the way)...

Glims

EDIT: Scratch that. Apparently Glims doesn't have reloading of all pages open. I know one of those programs does... Maybe its Saft or something.
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Feb 26, 2009, 12:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mac User #001 View Post
Not entirely sure if its what you're looking for, but as e r i k has linked to so many times (thanks by the way)...

Glims
i don't see where it does what i'm talking about (or am i missing something??)...
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Feb 26, 2009, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
There is none involving you. It's Eug's benchmarks. I asked about HTML rendering speed and as an answer I get two plots and a set of numbers that have to do with JavaScript performance. My question is if I'm missing something. Because if not, all of that has zero to do with what I asked.
Errr... You didn't ask about Safari HTML rendering speed before I posted those two graphs. You asked about Safari performance.

Originally Posted by Simon View Post
I'm somewhat surprised to read so much about a 'speed-up'. What is it that Safari 3 is really slow at? In my experience Safari 3 on a modern Mac is very fast (especially once you get rid of all the Flash ads). Is this only about older Macs?
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I thought Nitro was something different from Squirrelfish Extreme …?!?
I'm pretty sure "Nitro" is just the name their marketing department came up with after "Squirrelfish Extreme" made their heads explode. If they came up with yet another totally new Javascript engine in a year, good money they'd blog about it.
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Feb 26, 2009, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
To be fair, they aren't exactly responsible when it doesn't fit in with a custom theme.
Perhaps, but other apps don't have this problem...unless they're not using native rendering or GTK+ (Windows Media Player, Zune, Trillian, Safari, iTunes, etc.).

There's no justifiable reason to not use the native framework provided by the OS for this kind of thing. It's always annoyed the bejeebus out of me that Apple hasn't made apps for Windows that fit seamlessly into Windows, while at the same time they have a close hold on how apps for OS X look and fit with the GUI. I like Windows apps to behave like Windows apps....things like resize widgets and title bars and things should follow the host operating system's conventions.
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Feb 26, 2009, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Naplander View Post
Has anyone figured out yet how to remove the 'recent searches' from the Google search bar??
Yes without having to go to Pref's & deleting Google cookie...
just left-click or ctrl-click on the word in search-field you'll get a drop-down menu select "cut" their you go.

Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Okay, where has the "Mark for SnapBack" option gone?

Don't tell me they've removed that...
No if you look at the http://www.apple.com/safari/features.html it's still listed there, secondly
if you click Safari>History you'll see search results Snapback is grayed-out no matter how many pages down you go! Even the shortcut alt+com+S doesn't work & if you look it up in Safari-Help you'll find "Safari snapback" more confusing telling you that you can mark a page for snapback?
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 04:08 PM
 
With the changes to tabs, when there are a ton of tabs open, is it really difficult to find a spot to be able to move the window around?

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CharlesS
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Feb 26, 2009, 04:14 PM
 
I use the unused space to the right of the bookmark bar.

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Feb 26, 2009, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
With the changes to tabs, when there are a ton of tabs open, is it really difficult to find a spot to be able to move the window around?
Active Safari Window

If you click and drag in the middle of the tab (not on the drag handle or close widget) you can move the window around. It that tab is inactive it won't activate. But if you click an inactive tab and don't drag the tab will activate.

Inactive Safari Window

Same as above. However, if you just want to bring a background window forward and maintain its active tab you can't do this by clicking on an inactive tab b/c it will be activated. So you have to click the active tab which limits your target area.

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Feb 26, 2009, 04:21 PM
 
Thank you. It will be interesting to try it out for myself.

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Feb 26, 2009, 04:37 PM
 
Command-clicking the window title to bring up the location hierarchy (which works in virtually all other properly designed Mac applications) no longer does anything.

Sad.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 26, 2009, 04:43 PM
 
That is too bad. That's a feature that I use in the Finder but never even thought to use in a browser, and now it's going away.

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Feb 26, 2009, 05:08 PM
 
I actually don't use it much in the browser, either, though I do use it all the time in various applications to open a document's enclosing folder.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 05:38 PM
 
Another problem I noticed with the new stretchy tabs: It's now really hard to drag a URL in and make it a new tab. There's an invisible zone about three pixels wide to the left of the + button where it works. (That is, the + button on the titlebar, not the other + button in the toolbar. ) Anywhere else and it either replaces the existing tab's content or the drag simply fails.
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Feb 26, 2009, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
With the changes to tabs, when there are a ton of tabs open, is it really difficult to find a spot to be able to move the window around?
I use the Status Bar.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Another problem I noticed with the new stretchy tabs: It's now really hard to drag a URL in and make it a new tab. There's an invisible zone about three pixels wide to the left of the + button where it works. (That is, the + button on the titlebar, not the other + button in the toolbar. ) Anywhere else and it either replaces the existing tab's content or the drag simply fails.
You could use Apple-Return in the URL bar until they fix/address that issue.
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Chuckit
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Feb 26, 2009, 06:25 PM
 
Good thought, but that doesn't work. If you drag a link into the URL bar, it goes there without you ever pressing return.

(Incidentally, I know I could just switch on the classic tabs option, but I'm trying to give the new interface a chance to grow on me.)
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Feb 26, 2009, 06:34 PM
 
Everyone should send Apple feedback on this beta.

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Feb 26, 2009, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
But Sunspider is a JavaScript benchmark, right? IOW it has nothing to do with HTML rendering performance.
There's been significant optimizations to almost everything since 3.x branched.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 07:26 PM
 
think the tabs would be better static (no resizing of the frontmost tab), just annoying the hell out of me...
guess i will adapt (am generally a fan of moving forward...)
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Feb 26, 2009, 08:28 PM
 
I am having issues with the Hotmail site. When I use the "select all" box to choose a bunch of emails to delete Safari 4 moves slowly. Up to a 2 second lag before the checkmarks appear for each email on the page. I can actually see it go down the line adding the checkmarks. If I then click on "delete", nothing happens. I guess there's plenty of work yet to be done on Safari 4.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 08:31 PM
 
Sigh. I know how hard it is, but seriously just wean yourself of Hotmail already.

Just use IzyMail to forward your e-mail to your Gmail or own domain e-mail in the transition period:

http://v3.izymail.com/gmailconfig.aspx

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Feb 26, 2009, 09:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by fisherKing View Post
i don't see where it does what i'm talking about (or am i missing something??)...
Right click any tab in Safari and you should see the option to reload all tabs. Still not quite what you were looking for, but certainly beats reloading each tab individually.
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:25 PM
 


So the top Google search people made with regard to Safari 4 is apparently how to uninstall it again.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mac User #001 View Post
Right click any tab in Safari and you should see the option to reload all tabs. Still not quite what you were looking for, but certainly beats reloading each tab individually.
alas, one tab in the set i DON'T want to reload... ah well...
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CharlesS
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Feb 27, 2009, 03:43 AM
 
Okay, this is interesting... right now Safari 4 is giving me a 5-second lag when scrolling or moving a window. I'm not exaggerating here - I do a two-finger scroll on the trackpad, the window scrolls a full five seconds later. Dragging the window causes it to lag five seconds behind the mouse.

The really weird thing is that scrolling using the page-up and page-down keys is instantaneous. Scrolling via any other method, though - two fingers on the trackpad, the arrow keys, clicking the scroll-bar with the mouse - causes the five second delay. Other functions, such as opening and closing new windows or tabs and visiting websites is just like normal. Dragging tabs around is also normal, and resizing windows is normal - but drag or scroll a window, and it sits there for five seconds. Weird, huh?

I'm sure that quitting and relaunching Safari will fix this, but still - so much for Safari 4 being fast.

edit: okay, it's still doing it even after relaunching Safari. I am not amused. Time to try a logout/login...

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Feb 27, 2009, 04:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Errr... You didn't ask about Safari HTML rendering speed before I posted those two graphs. You asked about Safari performance.
What are you talking about? I asked about HTML rendering:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
I have this suspicion that while improvements certainly have been made for JavaScript and the like, regular HTML rendering on a 2.8 GHz C2D won't be any different.
and you quoted that and replied with a link to a bunch of numbers. Turns out those number had to do with JavaScript.
( Last edited by Simon; Feb 27, 2009 at 04:22 AM. )
     
Simon
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Feb 27, 2009, 04:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Catfish_Man View Post
There's been significant optimizations to almost everything since 3.x branched.
Good, so I'll ask again. Has anyone with a fast Mac observed that Safari became significantly faster for regular HTML rendering? All the improvements I see pertain to JavaScript. On many pages I use for work there is zero JavaScript and I am already used to really fast Safari 3 performance there. Now, with Safari 4 I see no speed-up. Therefore, I am wondering if all this speed-up talk has only to do with JavaScript and/or older Macs.
     
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Feb 27, 2009, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I'm pretty sure "Nitro" is just the name their marketing department came up with after "Squirrelfish Extreme" made their heads explode. If they came up with yet another totally new Javascript engine in a year, good money they'd blog about it.
Could be. I just assumed it was a whole different thing.
In any case, I also suspect the interface buit around the new WebKit is also more responsive.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Feb 27, 2009, 08:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Good, so I'll ask again. Has anyone with a fast Mac observed that Safari became significantly faster for regular HTML rendering? All the improvements I see pertain to JavaScript. On many pages I use for work there is zero JavaScript and I am already used to really fast Safari 3 performance there. Now, with Safari 4 I see no speed-up. Therefore, I am wondering if all this speed-up talk has only to do with JavaScript and/or older Macs.
Slow down here, cowboy, no need to get worked up about nothing.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
 
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