[TubaMuffins]

as much as i would rather use a mac over a pc any day, there are a few things i like about pcs. My girlfriends laptop's trackpad also has an area for scrolling using your finger up and down the trackpad. I found this and it works pretty nice. http://www.ragingmenace.com/software...ack/index.html. The other thing i like is that when you close a window, it also closes the app. although i can see myself doing this accidentally a lot, i think it makes it better, maybe. other than that, macs are better, right?

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
The other thing i like is that when you close a window, it also closes the app. although i can see myself doing this accidentally a lot, i think it makes it better, maybe. other than that, macs are better, right?

That is the worst idea ever. I always have photoshop, drweamweaver and safari open with no window.

[demograph68]

OS X is better.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
The other thing i like is that when you close a window, it also closes the app.

[bergen]

After switching and spending time on my powerbook I now hate when apps close as I close the window. Ctrl+Q is not that much of a hassle for me.

[storer]

The thing my PC does better than my Mac, is stuffing up. I mean, it is so talented at doing that. Occasionally it freezes, and then it leaves alert bubbles there ALL the time... gee, it could be a travelling side show.

But seriously, I'm not used to OS X's navigation system. I love being able to minimise and maximise in windows without having to watch animations, though I love Espose. I love being able to get straight to my desktop with out having to minimise things. The Mac OS needs to have your hidden app/minimised choices more readily available.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by storer:
The Mac OS needs to have your hidden app/minimised choices more readily available.

Command+M minimize
Command+H hide

It's simple enough.

[icruise]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
as much as i would rather use a mac over a pc any day, there are a few things i like about pcs. My girlfriends laptop's trackpad also has an area for scrolling using your finger up and down the trackpad. I found this and it works pretty nice. http://www.ragingmenace.com/software...ack/index.html.

How is this a feature of PCs when it's available for the Mac? I use Sidetrack and really like it.

[TubaMuffins]

Originally posted by Icruise:
How is this a feature of PCs when it's available for the Mac? I use Sidetrack and really like it.

yea, i use sidetrack too, thats why i linked it. its a feature for PCs because a) it comes with the laptop already and b) the trackpad has a visible, physical seperation for scrolling and for mousing or whatever you want to call it

[RiSE]

I use my mac for work (photoshop, fcp) and my PC for play(games,internet)

[demograph68]

Originally posted by RiSE:
I use my mac for work (photoshop, fcp) and my PC for play(games,internet)

A PC for the internet? Isn't that more risky?

[storer]

Originally posted by demograph68:
Command+M minimize
Command+H hide

It's simple enough.

I didn't know that. Ill try it some time.

And yeh, a pc for the internet? what do you use your mac for? you'd be much safer using it for net. Internet Explorer is crap.

[RiSE]

Originally posted by demograph68:
A PC for the internet? Isn't that more risky?

Its risky for people like my sister or my grandmother Im not an idiot when it comes to the internet like so many PC users. IF i have to look at a porn site i use my mac . But really adware/spyware can be prevented if you just be carefull and know what to stay away from.

[RiSE]

Originally posted by storer:
I didn't know that. Ill try it some time.

And yeh, a pc for the internet? what do you use your mac for? you'd be much safer using it for net. Internet Explorer is crap.

I'm one of the few people who like IE. I also prefer AIM to ichat.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by RiSE:
I'm one of the few people who like IE.

We at MacNN would like to say... ARE YOU ****ING NUTS?!?!?!

[storer]

LOL. I'd be a lot happier with it if it had tabbed browsing.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
The other thing i like is that when you close a window, it also closes the app.

Its all what your used to... I grew up a PC user and when I first used mac I found myself leaving every single program open accidentaly and wondering whyt he computer was going so slow. Niether are better or worse in that aspect in my opinon. Again its all a matter of what your used to.

[storer]

Originally posted by Splinter:
Its all what your used to... I grew up a PC user and when I first used mac I found myself leaving every single program open accidentaly and wondering whyt he computer was going so slow. Niether are better or worse in that aspect in my opinon. Again its all a matter of what your used to.

Yeh, I grew up with Windows, right through from 3.1 to XP, and then sort of switched ( I say this because I still own windows boxes but only for specific windows accounting software reasons {my parents business uses it} ) My sister leaves programs open galore in OS 9, and it drives me mad. Like, get with it, sis. The first OS I ever used was Windows, but before that, I had used Apple IIe Platinum's at school. Then I started using OS 7 on Performas at school for 2 years. Then that school abandoned macs completely. That was in '98 (i no ino, big mistake cos of imacs) though they left them all and added new wintel boxes. They all (including macs) ran windows remote desktops with Metaframe. It was hell. Then I moved to a school with a terrible windows network and a few old Quadra's.

So, I have a history with the Mac OS, so moving to Mac wasn't that hard.

[chabig]

Originally posted by Splinter:
I found myself leaving every single program open accidentaly and wondering whyt he computer was going so slow.

This was true on OS 9 and earlier. But in OS X, open programs don't slow down the machine if they aren't using any processor time. It's easy to just leave them open.

Chris

[MilkmanDan]

I must admit, when it comes to catching viruses, Windows does a much better job. I mean, the one feature I wish OS X had was the ability to download lots of spyware every day so that I could make some extra money removing it for people.

[OreoCookie]

You can do that with OS X, too. There is a shareware/freeware called sidetrack or sidetracker that does the trick.

[Millennium]

App-as-window is a horrible UI paradigm, and it is to the detriment of computers everywhere that Microsoft uses it (and worse, that everyone else copied Microsoft, rather than Apple's app-as-its-own-entity paradigm).

[ManOfSteal]

PC's are better at installing stuff without your permission, coming down with a virus, and sucking in general...

[demograph68]

Originally posted by manofsteal:
PC's are better at installing stuff without your permission, coming down with a virus, and sucking in general...

Really? I wouldn't have guessed!

[Luca Rescigno]

What are PCs better at? Well, the big one is gaming. There's no question that PCs are absolutely superior to Macs as game machines. They're also very cheap and you can tinker with them a lot more. Then again, that can cause problems. I mean, every time I've opened my PC and changed drives (hard drives, optical drives, IDE cables, jumper settings), I've ended up with a machine that won't boot. I have to keep tinkering with it and messing around, almost randomly, until it works.

I'd say there are probably an equal number of good shareware/freeware applications for Windows as there are for Mac. Thing is, Windows has a lot more individual pieces of software, but almost all of it sucks. So when it comes down to it, there are about an equal number, even though there are far more Windows developers. Also, Windows seems to have less freeware/open source software available, while there are all sorts of OS X ports of open source *nix applications available for free.

[chris v]

I will occasionally go into the front office and play solitaire if there's an unoccupied machine.

"I grew up with my computer jabbing red hot pokers in my eyes, so I guess I'll stick with that because I'm used to it" is a pretty lame argument, though.

[drive-thru]

Originally posted by Millennium:
App-as-window is a horrible UI paradigm, and it is to the detriment of computers everywhere that Microsoft uses it (and worse, that everyone else copied Microsoft, rather than Apple's app-as-its-own-entity paradigm).

Does app-as-window use up more resources if you open up several of the same thing?
E.g. on a PC, if I were to open up 5 windows of IE, would that be like having the app open 5 times? Wouldn't this use up a lot more RAM/processor? Or is it not that simple?

I know Photoshop on a PC acts as an app with windows winthin it (like on the mac), I guess this is because Adobe started PS on macs, but does it also use up less system resources?

Slightly off topic, but I thought I would use this thread to learn something.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by drive-thru:
Does app-as-window use up more resources if you open up several of the same thing?
E.g. on a PC, if I were to open up 5 windows of IE, would that be like having the app open 5 times? Wouldn't this use up a lot more RAM/processor? Or is it not that simple?

It works the same on either platform. Active processes use resources - memory, CPU cycles, or both.

[olePigeon]

I use my Mac for absolutely everything except gaming. Unfortunately, Counter-Strike will never make it to the Mac.

However, if the game is released simultaneous on the Mac as well as the PC, I'll generally buy the Mac version. Only exception is when they do crap like use DirectPlay, making cross-platform network play impossible. In which case, unfortunately, I have to get the PC version.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by storer:
The Mac OS needs to have your hidden app/minimised choices more readily available.

You can use keyboard shortcuts, access it by right-clicking the app in the dock, or go to the app menu !

What ELSE do you need ?

-t

[Spliffdaddy]

"keyboard shortcut"?

It's hardly a shortcut if you need to access the keyboard.

I never use the keyboard on my PC. The mouse does everything I need.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by turtle777:


You can use keyboard shortcuts, access it by right-clicking the app in the dock, or go to the app menu !

What ELSE do you need ?

-t

A hide button, next to the minimize button ?

[scaught]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
"keyboard shortcut"?

It's hardly a shortcut if you need to access the keyboard.

I never use the keyboard on my PC. The mouse does everything I need.

honestly, that is the exact opposite of how i want to interface with my computer. i HATE the mouse. my ibook at home has a trackpad (which i also use for scrolling through webpages), but for the most part i use keyboard shortcuts for everything. my browser has no back/forward buttons cause i always use keyboard shortcuts for it.

on the pc i use at work, i tend to use the mouse a LOT. probably because in whatever app im using, its the fastest way to get to whatever i need to do (because there arent keyboard shortcuts programmed into the app).

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
"keyboard shortcut"?

It's hardly a shortcut if you need to access the keyboard.

I never use the keyboard on my PC. The mouse does everything I need.

Uhm, are you trying to argue the term "shurtcut".
It is what it is, a keyboard stroke, usually a combination of a special command key (ahift, ctrl, alt, cmd...) and another key.

Mouse or keyboard ?
It's a matter of preference.
Most powerusers use a lot of keyboard shortcuts.
Or do you need BOTH hand to use your mouse, one for draggin, one for clicking ?

-t

[C.J. Moof]

My Pentium machine is much better at trying out new linux distrubitions than my Mac is. That's also all it's good for.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
A hide button, next to the minimize button ?

In OS X, windows have hide buttons, apps don't.

It's part of the whole Apple GUI philosophy. You don't have apps in windows.
Again, it's a matter of preference. I don't think this is a shortcoming of OS X.

-t

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by scaught:
honestly, that is the exact opposite of how i want to interface with my computer.

same here. i used to use the mouse exclusively, but my goal is to use only the keyboard. you can work a lot faster and more accurately that way.

btw, is there a shortcut to access the "context" menu in os x? (just thought about that one)

[Spliffdaddy]

there's a palm-sized thingy with 2 buttons and a scrollwheel.

and there's a big-ass thingy with over a hundred buttons of various shapes in various locations.

give me a 2-button thingy in each hand, thanks.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
give me a 2-button thingy in each hand, thanks.

Good luck with creating emails, letters, spreadsheets etc...

Are you challanged beyond capacity with all the buttons on a keyboard ?

-t

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by turtle777:
In OS X, windows have hide buttons, apps don't.

It's part of the whole Apple GUI philosophy. You don't have apps in windows.
Again, it's a matter of preference. I don't think this is a shortcoming of OS X.

-t

Where do you see a hide button in OSX ? I mean a round button like close, minimize and zoom on every window.

Anyway, I use Expos� so I don't care too much for hide.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Where do you see a hide button in OSX ? I mean a round button like close, minimize and zoom on every window.

Anyway, I use Expos� so I don't care too much for hide.

Uhm, you're right. I always think of hide = minimize.
The window is gone, after that. That's all that matters !

Btw, in that respect, there is no hide on Windoze. It's all minimize as well ! So the Hide function in OS X is unique !

-t

[The Godfather]

Originally posted by Millennium:
App-as-window is a horrible UI paradigm, and it is to the detriment of computers everywhere that Microsoft uses it (and worse, that everyone else copied Microsoft, rather than Apple's app-as-its-own-entity paradigm).

Because you didn't support your claim, I very well can do this:

App-as-window is a brilliant UI paradigm, and it is to the benefit of computers everywhere that Microsoft uses it (and it gets better, everyone else copied Microsoft, rather than Apple's app-as-its-own-entity paradigm).

Windows GUI philosophy: the close-App control is tangible. Close all the document windows, and the app unloads itself.
Mac GUI philosophy: the close-App is not tangible. Close all the document windows, and the App lurks around until you remember to Quit it. In the days of OS 9, this led to Macs in computer labs left with 10 applications active, with no windows open on the desktop. This is because users expect that when you see nothing, there's nothing.

In the Mac to close an app you go to File>... oh no, under "App Name">Quit, but you must first bring that App to the front, which you don't really know it is active until you see the little triangle under its icon (or find it in the App menu in OS9).

[Spliffdaddy]

I talk. It types. Gotta love it.

My keyboard stays propped up against the side of my monitor - in order to prevent a 'no-keyboard-found' warning dialog from the motherboard BIOS during monthly reboots.

So I mostly just use a mouse to handle any user input. A few years ago I was experimenting with automobile-based computers. An environment where a keyboard would be clumsy & ill-suited. Touchscreens, handheld remote controls, and voice-command were the way to go.

I was usually indoors when experimenting - so I used the computers just as any normal home user might use them....only without a keyboard. So I got damned good at it.

The learning curve associated with applications like 'ViaVoice' tends to be initially very steep. But far, far, far easier than learning to use a keyboard without using your eyes for reference.

Since a keyboard is found at pretty much every desktop computer - this is a skill that is *required*...for now - which is unfortunate. It's quickly becoming the largest hardware component, too. Human hands aren't getting any smaller, as far as I can tell, so the keyboard has reached its minimum attainable dimensions.

Touchscreens. Probably the most logical, sensible user interface. Too bad they really suck to use. At least with software created for mouse&keyboard interface. Which accounts for all software except like 4 applications. Which were created for touchscreens. Can you say "trivia", "jukebox" and "video poker". Great for mobile entertainment or bartops. Bad for the desktop.

So touchscreens suck. Not *just* because the available software isn't made for them, but because home users sit too far away from the screen to make reaching the screen comfortable.

For now, the hot set-up is a mouse and a microphone. The keyboard is archaic technology.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by The Godfather:
Because you didn't support your claim, I very well can do this:

App-as-window is a brilliant UI paradigm, and it is to the benefit of computers everywhere that Microsoft uses it (and it gets better, everyone else copied Microsoft, rather than Apple's app-as-its-own-entity paradigm).

Windows GUI philosophy: the close-App control is tangible. Close all the document windows, and the app unloads itself.
Mac GUI philosophy: the close-App is not tangible. Close all the document windows, and the App lurks around until you remember to Quit it. In the days of OS 9, this led to Macs in computer labs left with 10 applications active, with no windows open on the desktop. This is because users expect that when you see nothing, there's nothing.

In the Mac to close an app you go to File>... oh no, under "App Name">Quit, but you must first bring that App to the front, which you don't really know it is active until you see the little triangle under its icon (or find it in the App menu in OS9).

You point is ?

-t

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
For now, the hot set-up is a mouse and a microphone. The keyboard is archaic technology.

Well, I tell you, there are instances where it just wouldn't work.
Ever created big spreadsheets with complicated formulas and links ?
Good luck with ViaVoice !

-t

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by turtle777:
Well, I tell you, there are instances where it just wouldn't work.
Ever created big spreadsheets with complicated formulas and links ?
Good luck with ViaVoice !

-t

Try me.

You're accustomed to using a keyboard and I'm equally good at voice-recognition applications.

perspective, ya know.

If I never saw a keyboard, I'd think you were insane for suggesting that operating 100 different keys in the proper sequence would be easier than saying it.

PS, it's disingenuous for me to say "100 keys". Hell, '100' stopped being enough keys a long time ago. Now we have 'Alt' and 'Cntrl' and 'apple' key combinations! So, theoretically, there are trillions of possible inputs to choose from. And trillions of ways to get it wrong.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Try me.

You're accustomed to using a keyboard and I'm equally good at voice-recognition applications.

Ok, here we go, some formulas out of my Excel sheets:

=IF($K$2>0,OFFSET('basic data'!$C$30,LOOKUP($B$6,'basic data'!$B$31:$B$37,'basic data'!$C$31:$C$37),LOOKUP(R1,'basic data'!$D$29:$Q$29,'basic data'!$D$30:$Q$30)),0)

=IF(AC$1="",,'basic data'!$L8*(AC31-AC$10-AC27)*POWER((1+inflation),FY_num))

=MID(CELL("filename"),FIND("[",CELL("filename"))+1,FIND("]",CELL("filename"))-FIND("[",CELL("filename"))-1)

='R&D'!R$10:R$24,'R&D'!R$26:R$30,'R&D'!R$32:R$35,' R&D'!R$37:R$42,'R&D'!R$44,'R&D'!R$47:R$50,'R&D'!R$ 54:R$60,'R&D'!R$65:R$66,'R&D'!R$70:R$71,'R&D'!R$8



I'd kill myself before having to do stuff like that without a keyboard !

-t

[Spliffdaddy]

I'd like to see you type that on a keyboard.



PS, I had my PC read that post to me. It's hilarious. Still going, in fact.

It reads, then it types it, too.

I don't have to do jack.

It's like a feedback loop.

edit:

OMG, my PC doesn't need a user anymore!!!

Damn. Now I need to buy a Mac. They still require a user.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'd like to see you type that on a keyboard.

Well, it's a combination of keyboard and mouse. But still, I couldn't imagine doing that without a keyboard...

-t

[The Godfather]

Originally posted by turtle777:
You point is ?

-t

That it is easier with Windows!