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Dumb guy home audio question
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Paco500
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Aug 23, 2010, 12:32 PM
 
So the other day we dug the turntable and some old records out of storage and thought it would be fun to play them for the kids. I hooked up the turntable to our mini-shelf system through the AUX jacks, and we are getting sound- but very faint.

I recall back in the days of Turntable, you needed some kind of amp to get them to go. So this is what I'm looking for.

Ideally, something in-line and inexpensive. This is not for audiophile appreciation of music- it's for letting the kids hear some old records. I don't want to replace the shelf system with something good, and I don't really want to buy one of those USB turntables.

Thoughts?
     
Phileas
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Aug 23, 2010, 12:43 PM
 
You need a phono pre-amp.

Any of these will do: Phonopreamps.com Home Page but you should be able to pick one up locally or on UK ebay.
     
turtle777
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Aug 23, 2010, 12:48 PM
 
Yes, you need some sort of pre-amp. Some turntables have those built-in and give you a line level signal, most don't.

Amazon.com: Learn All About Phono Preamps

-t
     
dav
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Aug 23, 2010, 02:39 PM
 
not just amplification, but vinyl has heavy equalization (riaa curve), thus the need for a phono pre-amp.
in the meantime, your kids might enjoy this link on how stereo is recorded on a vinyl disk.
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Eriamjh
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Aug 29, 2010, 09:13 PM
 
Older amps have real phono inputs which have the amps built in.

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EmmEff
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Aug 29, 2010, 11:05 PM
 
You might want to find an older amp/integrated amp/receiver at a garage sale... anything new is probably going to be more $$$ than you're willing to spend to enjoy some nostalgia.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 30, 2010, 02:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by dav View Post
not just amplification, but vinyl has heavy equalization (riaa curve), thus the need for a phono pre-amp.
in the meantime, your kids might enjoy this link on how stereo is recorded on a vinyl disk.
Far more hands-on way to learn about vinyl (and, in fact, how sound works) is the postcard trick: LOOSELY hold a postcard by the edges, and place one corner in the groove of the spinning record.

When you've amused yourselves enough, grab a magnifying glass and take a look at the grooves.
     
Thorzdad
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Aug 30, 2010, 08:07 AM
 
Find a clean, older integrated amp/receiver, and you should be able to simply plug the turntable in and play the vinyl.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 6, 2012, 12:37 AM
 
Okay, I'm sick (stomach bug) and since I have some time I'm going to impart some of my experiences in this area. Basically, what matters, what doesn't, and my opinions.

Cables

Speaker cables: As long as they're of adequate gauge, they all sound the same. I've tried everything from Audioquest K2s down to 12AWG zip cord. No difference. However, I settled on Blue Jeans BJC 10s with welded banana plugs and nylon sleeves. They look nice and they get the job done.

Digital cables: Same thing. I just get Blue Jeans cables in whatever length I need.

Power cables: Heh.

Analog RCA and XLR: Okay, this is a departure. Going from single-ended to balanced makes a small difference, though not huge. The better and more sensitive your transducers, the larger the improvement will be. However, here's a surprise, when comparing interconnects of similar type, SE or XLR, they aren't all the same. It's minor, almost trivial, but I can tell with certain very familiar pieces of music. Going from Blue Jeans XLRs to some Audioquest Niagara cabling ($5000 set) there was a change, but it wasn't for the better. They added an odd grainy texture. I told the guy at my hi-fi shop and he almost swallowed his tongue. I tried another set, the next step down with Audioquest, and it was the same thing. Maybe it's that "active dielectric" battery powered bullshit, I have no idea. I ended up just getting some materials from Homegrown Audio and built/soldered my own and I like them a lot, and they look great.


More stuff later
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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 6, 2012, 02:58 AM
 
So this thread is two years old, but what the hell.

Your post isn't even on-topic.

I love it!

I think Shaddim's a little under the weather…get well soon.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 6, 2012, 06:49 AM
 
I love it, though. Keep it coming! I just purchased a Black Sands Silver Reference MKV power cable for my amp and received it yesterday. I'm hoping to do some A/B tests in the next couple of weeks with my old cable, which was a low-end old XLO cable.

As I've moved to a "new" house I've run a bunch of Monoprice 24 AWG HDMI cables in-wall and fitted everything out with wall plates etc. - looks pretty sharp. Also used Monoprice for their optical cables. I also use Blue Jeans speaker cable and now with an unfinished basement I'm going to run in from the amp, through the hardwood into the basement, and up through the floor to the back of the speakers for a really smooth look. I've made a 24-inch wide by 21-inch deep alcove in the wall off to one side of the TV area, and I'm going to build in a complete home theatre equipment shelving unit from the floor to about 6 feet high....should be pretty smooth.

Got a new Panasonic ST50 plasma and should have everything up and running in a couple weeks.......
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Shaddim
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Oct 6, 2012, 12:01 PM
 
I consider it my token act of rebellion. And yeah, I have the trots, which means I'm incarcerated in my mancave and allowed only minimal human contact for the duration.
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moonmonkey
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Oct 7, 2012, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post

Far more hands-on way to learn about vinyl (and, in fact, how sound works) is the postcard trick: LOOSELY hold a postcard by the edges, and place one corner in the groove of the spinning record.


When you've amused yourselves enough, grab a magnifying glass and take a look at the grooves.
A preamp would be easier.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 7, 2012, 10:52 PM
 
Explain a pre-amp to a five-year-old.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 8, 2012, 06:00 AM
 
Forget 5-year-old - explain it to me....

I've got a 29-year-old Bryston 1B preamp that I've had for a few years now, and despite trying to replace it with a couple different (newer and more expensive) preamps, I keep coming back to it. For whatever reason, it has a fantastic soundstage - wide and very deep, perhaps artificially so I'm told, but I love that expansive sort of sound that puts the singer right in your face and the drummer back into the next room! Bryston makes pretty damn bulletproof gear, and when I sent it back to them a couple years ago to be serviced their tech called me to say it was still working perfectly and probably the best-built piece of equipment they've ever done. Pretty high praise in my books.

Unfortunately, I'm now adding an old Lenco turntable to the mix, and my particular Bryston doesn't have a phono preamp (they built in a custom headphone stage instead...which I won't be using). So I might have to finally look at replacing it.....
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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 8, 2012, 06:54 AM
 
Get an external preamp.

Just don't go for the $20 variety.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 8, 2012, 07:16 AM
 
You mean, separately from the 1B preamp? But then I'd have 2 preamps running into one amplifier - that's one too many stereo inputs. Or would the separate phono preamp run to the Bryston preamp...?...that doesn't seem right to me.
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subego
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Oct 8, 2012, 09:18 AM
 
IIUC, conceptually, a phono stage is already a preamp in your preamp. You'd just be outboarding it.

Full disclosure: I have no physical media, and actually use a receiver.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 8, 2012, 09:36 AM
 
Hmm? My preamp doesn't have a phono stage. Wouldn't using a stand-alone phono preamp mean that I'd have two separate preamps - one for the turntable, and my Bryston for everything else - each of which would have to be plugged into the amplifier...which has only one stereo input?
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subego
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Oct 8, 2012, 10:24 AM
 
Yes.

That's okay though because that's more or less what would be happening if your preamp had a phono stage. The signal would run through the phono stage, which brings the signal to line level. That line level signal is then run through the preamp just like you had plugged it into an input.

Another way to look at it is any component you plug in to your preamp is going to have its own preamp anyway. For example, the only way the analog outputs on your CD player work is because there's a preamp inside the CD player jacking what comes out of the DAC up to line level.
     
subego
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Oct 8, 2012, 12:32 PM
 
I kinda misread your post.

You can plug the preamp you use for the phono into the Bryston.

Likewise, you can get preamps which only have a phono stage.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 9, 2012, 03:01 AM
 
Okay, thanks. You know, I've never really thought about the difference (if any) between on onboard phono preamp and an external preamp......in terms of volume control, I assume I'd just have to set the phono preamp to max volume for passthrough audio?

I'm looking around for some newer preamps with phono......a lot of good used equipment runs in the ~$2000 range, which is a little too high for me right now considering I'm smack in the middle of a huge house reno. Looks like I can get a solid used phono preamp for $500-$1000. But my end goal for the music/theatre system is to get an Anthem D2v processor, which does not have a phono stage, so I may just suck it up, buy a really solid external phono preamp, and at least that was I can simply replace the Bryston down the road and move it into a basement system or something.

A huge plus would be getting a remote with a new preamp, but I guess I'll have to suck that one up for a while (yes, I get off the couch and manually push "power" and turn a volume knob now.....old school).
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BadKosh
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Oct 9, 2012, 10:50 AM
 
DB Systems makes very good low distortion pre-amps and pre-pre-amps for moving coils.
     
subego
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Oct 9, 2012, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Okay, thanks. You know, I've never really thought about the difference (if any) between on onboard phono preamp and an external preamp......in terms of volume control, I assume I'd just have to set the phono preamp to max volume for passthrough audio?
I'm looking around for some newer preamps with phono......a lot of good used equipment runs in the ~$2000 range, which is a little too high for me right now considering I'm smack in the middle of a huge house reno. Looks like I can get a solid used phono preamp for $500-$1000. But my end goal for the music/theatre system is to get an Anthem D2v processor, which does not have a phono stage, so I may just suck it up, buy a really solid external phono preamp, and at least that was I can simply replace the Bryston down the road and move it into a basement system or something.
A huge plus would be getting a remote with a new preamp, but I guess I'll have to suck that one up for a while (yes, I get off the couch and manually push "power" and turn a volume knob now.....old school).
You'll find a good ratio. I doubt it'd be max. You usually don't get the best results if you push the circuitry to edge of its envelope.

FWIW, they make pure outboard phono stages too. No controls. Just turntable in to line level out.

Do you have an insane audiophile boutique nearby? They'll often let you demo stuff at home.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 9, 2012, 11:35 AM
 
Nope, nothing near where I live. That's usually the problem - I have to buy it and ship it before I can find out if it's what I'm looking for.
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Shaddim
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Oct 9, 2012, 01:57 PM
 
A preamp w/ phono to look at, preowned, is this McIntosh MX130 (includes remote).

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-mcintosh-mx130-great-shape-remote-manual-2012-10-05-preamplifiers-80209

That's a nice price for a very solid, and great sounding, unit. Sure, it has A/V functions, but you can ignore those and just use it for stereo.
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 10, 2012, 09:21 AM
 
Dammit. I had massive McIntosh envy for years and tormented myself for ages about getting a used MC252 for around $3000 or so. Ended up going with a Butler for close to half the price - no question that McIntoshes aren't amps you get a deal on. I don't know if I could take having a preamp in my system without trying to match it!
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 10, 2012, 05:19 PM
 
Well, speaking of "dumb guy".......this is the second Bryston 1B I've owned - I've had it for a couple years. Unlike the first one, though, this one does have two Phono inputs. I just haven't had a turntable in a while so I simply hadn't bothered to look at it closely, despite manually turning it on and off every day.

It'll just be MM but that's fine.

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Shaddim
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Oct 10, 2012, 08:42 PM
 
Personally, I'm a Krell guy for SS and my tube gear is custom built by Kevin Gilmore and Decware. The Krell stuff is pricey, though not as bad used, but the custom valve work is pretty reasonable, all things considered. A much better value than McIntosh, superior performance, and oh so gorgeous.
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subego
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Oct 10, 2012, 08:54 PM
 
I have a Sony.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 11, 2012, 03:08 AM
 
Yeah.....I guy I know in the local audio community actually went through a couple Krell amps (402 and a mono setup, maybe 400e?) before recently switching to Pass Labs gear. I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't also prefer the Pass Labs with his system - but all my gear combined costs less than a single Krell amp, so I'm hardly a judge of true audio fidelity.... All I can say is, at some point down the road I will own a Pass Labs XA100.5 amp, hahaha....
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Shaddim
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Oct 11, 2012, 10:24 AM
 
Why I like Krell. One of my big mono-blocks died; kaput, morte, tits-up, let out the magic smoke. What did Krell do? They flew out a tech, here, to my home, within 48 hours. He not only fixed it, he upgraded it and its twin, and updated the firmware in all my other Krell gear. That's hardcore CS, right there.
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 12, 2012, 05:27 AM
 
Yeah that's pretty crazy. I found out when I bought the Bryston that they actually have a 20-year full warranty on all their products. (The 1B was about 23 years old at the time.....juuuuuuuuuuust out of warranty! ) Also pretty hardcore - you've got to be pretty confident in what you're building to offer that sort of service.

Of course, as China continues to refine the quality of its products I think North American audio producers are really going to run into serious trouble - the "better quality" argument is getting tougher and tougher to make. But maybe they'll continue to survive over here based on these type of service bonuses.

Greg
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BadKosh
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Oct 12, 2012, 08:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Why I like Krell. One of my big mono-blocks died; kaput, morte, tits-up, let out the magic smoke. What did Krell do? They flew out a tech, here, to my home, within 48 hours. He not only fixed it, he upgraded it and its twin, and updated the firmware in all my other Krell gear. That's hardcore CS, right there.
Which one do you have? We don't have a Krell dealer anywhere near Washington DC. The nearest in in Richmond, VA. I'd love to hear some. I use older DB Systems preamp and power amp for my lowest distortion system, but I'm sure curious about the sound of Krell gear.
     
   
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