[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Even you lie.

You did it in this thread when you said you were leaving and never did.

Liar.

Everyone lies. That is not a lie.

V

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Everyone lies. That is not a lie.

V

You are not obsessed with the USA. Lie.

You are obsession with the USA. Not a lie.

See how it works.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You mean Clinton had sex with terrorists?

Shhh! If we make this public, the terrorists will adjust to our methods...

[marden]

Note to the Libs:

Please notice who is rising up to ridicule and undermine the efforts to create unity. These posters have some interest in maintaining disharmony. Please do not emulate them. They hope you will be sheeple and easily led. They are manipulating you.

Don't let them.

Resist.

[saddino]

Originally Posted by marden

Note to the Libs:

Please notice who is rising up to ridicule and undermine the efforts to create unity. These posters have some interest in maintaining disharmony. Please do not emulate them. They hope you will be sheeple and easily led. They are manipulating you.

Don't let them.

Resist.

Notice taken. marden placed on ignore. Thanks for the heads up.

[itai195]

[marden]

Originally Posted by itai195

They may be black and jewish and klansmen, but one of these guys is DEFINATELY NOT GAY!

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You are not obsessed with the USA. Lie.

You are obsession with the USA. Not a lie.

See how it works.

Pick your enemies wisely Kilbey. I've been around for a long time. Go obsess over someone else now.

V

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by itai195

I'd like to unify

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I'd like to unify

[Cody Dawg]

Dear Fellow Republican Liars:

Why don't we continue our barrage of lies? Let's see who has the greatest lie to tell.

I will start.

I am going to vote Democratic across the board beginning with gubernatorial elections next month and I swear that I will also do everything within my power to ensure that HIllary Clinton and her she-man, Mr. Bill "The Liar" Clinton, are elected as the next presidential team in the White House.

Furthermore, I agree that everything that Saddino and voodoo says is the undisputable truth.

[Dakar]

That some quality commentary you added there, and I think I can safely say we're all better off for you having taken time to post it.

[marden]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Pick your enemies wisely Kilbey. I've been around for a long time. Go obsess over someone else now.

V

(Not playing the Clinton truthiness game.)

Railroader has friends.

[Cody Dawg]

Thank you.



P.S., I love you too, Dakar Unibrow.

[Dakar]

Unibrow?

[Dakar]

If it had been someone other than you besson3c, I might have bit.

Instead, I sat back and waited.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I'd like to unify with those sweater puppies.

I think that's just the kind of unity abe is looking for. You are now deemed 'cooperative'

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by itai195

I think that's just the kind of unity abe is looking for. You are now deemed 'cooperative'

Clever of him to appeal to my weakness. He's no better than Chavez after all.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Pick your enemies wisely Kilbey. I've been around for a long time. Go obsess over someone else now.

V

Enemies eh? I am not surprised.

What the heck does that mean? You've "been around a long time"? Does that mean your old? Does that mean you've had a membership with 'NN a long time? Does that mean you've been sitting in the same place for a long time and your butt is sore?

You start obsessing about your own little country and I'll stop taking you to task on your attacks on Americans. Deal?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by marden

(Not playing the Clinton truthiness game.)

Railroader has friends.

I know I can count on you and others to squash ignorance when it rears it's ugly little head.

[Cody Dawg]

Using your mother in your games?

Pretty sad.

If something happens to her now you'll feel like sh*t.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I know I can count on you and others to squash ignorance when it rears it's ugly little head.

You seem like a good guy.

[Mark Larr]

Originally Posted by voodoo

I've been around for a long time.
V

So you're sayin you are more or less the Herpes of the Internet™.

More irritating than harmful.


Seek treatment.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by itai195

This thread is just starting to get interesting...

Okay now this thread is getting boring, time to lock it.

[marden]

Back on topic.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110009001

What Clinton Didn't Do . . .
. . . .and when he didn't do it.

BY RICHARD MINITER
Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

Bill Clinton's outburst on Fox News was something of a public service, launching a debate about the antiterror policies of his administration. This is important because every George W. Bush policy that arouses the ire of Democrats--the Patriot Act, extraordinary rendition, detention without trial, pre-emptive war--is a departure from his predecessor. Where policies overlap--air attacks on infrastructure, secret presidential orders to kill terrorists, intelligence sharing with allies, freezing bank accounts, using police to arrest terror suspects--there is little friction. The question, then, is whether America should return to Mr. Clinton's policies or soldier on with Mr. Bush's.

It is vital that this debate be honest, but so far this has not been the case. Both Mr. Clinton's outrage at Chris Wallace's questioning and the ABC docudrama "The Path to 9/11" are attempts to polarize the nation's memory. While this divisiveness may be good for Mr. Clinton's reputation, it is ultimately unhealthy for the country. What we need, instead, is a cold-eyed look at what works against terrorists and what does not. The policies of the Clinton and Bush administrations ought to be put to the same iron test.

With that in mind, let us examine Mr. Clinton's war on terror. Some 38 days after he was sworn in, al Qaeda attacked the World Trade Center. He did not visit the twin towers that year, even though four days after the attack he was just across the Hudson River in New Jersey, talking about job training. He made no attempt to rally the public against terrorism. His only public speech on the bombing was a few paragraphs inserted into a radio address mostly devoted an economic stimulus package. Those stray paragraphs were limited to reassuring the public and thanking the rescuers, the kinds of things governors say after hurricanes. He did not even vow to bring the bombers to justice. Instead, he turned the first terrorist attack on American soil over to the FBI.

In his Fox interview, Mr. Clinton said "no one knew that al Qaeda existed" in October 1993, during the tragic events in Somalia. But his national security adviser, Tony Lake, told me that he first learned of bin Laden "sometime in 1993," when he was thought of as a terror financier. U.S. Army Capt. James Francis Yacone, a black hawk squadron commander in Somalia, later testified that radio intercepts of enemy mortar crews firing at Americans were in Arabic, not Somali, suggesting the work of bin Laden's agents (who spoke Arabic), not warlord Farah Aideed's men (who did not). CIA and DIA reports also placed al Qaeda operatives in Somalia at the time.

By the end of Mr. Clinton's first year, al Qaeda had apparently attacked twice. The attacks would continue for every one of the Clinton years.

• In 1994, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (who would later plan the 9/11 attacks) launched "Operation Bojinka" to down 11 U.S. planes simultaneously over the Pacific. A sharp-eyed Filipina police officer foiled the plot. The sole American response: increased law-enforcement cooperation with the Philippines.

• In 1995, al Qaeda detonated a 220-pound car bomb outside the Office of Program Manager in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, killing five Americans and wounding 60 more. The FBI was sent in.

• In 1996, al Qaeda bombed the barracks of American pilots patrolling the "no-fly zones" over Iraq, killing 19. Again, the FBI responded.

• In 1997, al Qaeda consolidated its position in Afghanistan and bin Laden repeatedly declared war on the U.S. In February, bin Laden told an Arab TV network: "If someone can kill an American soldier, it is better than wasting time on other matters." No response from the Clinton administration.

• In 1998, al Qaeda simultaneously bombed U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224, including 12 U.S. diplomats. Mr. Clinton ordered cruise-missile strikes on Afghanistan and Sudan in response. Here Mr. Clinton's critics are wrong: The president was right to retaliate when America was attacked, irrespective of the Monica Lewinsky case.

Still, "Operation Infinite Reach" was weakened by Clintonian compromise. The State Department feared that Pakistan might spot the American missiles in its air space and misinterpret it as an Indian attack. So Mr. Clinton told Gen. Joe Ralston, vice chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, to notify Pakistan's army minutes before the Tomahawks passed over Pakistan. Given Pakistan's links to jihadis at the time, it is not surprising that bin Laden was tipped off, fleeing some 45 minutes before the missiles arrived.

• In 1999, the Clinton administration disrupted al Qaeda's Millennium plots, a series of bombings stretching from Amman to Los Angeles. This shining success was mostly the work of Richard Clarke, a NSC senior director who forced agencies to work together. But the Millennium approach was shortlived. Over Mr. Clarke's objections, policy reverted to the status quo.

• In January 2000, al Qaeda tried and failed to attack the U.S.S. The Sullivans off Yemen. (Their boat sank before they could reach their target.) But in October 2000, an al Qaeda bomb ripped a hole in the hull of the U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and wounding another 39.

When Mr. Clarke presented a plan to launch a massive cruise missile strike on al Qaeda and Taliban facilities in Afghanistan, the Clinton cabinet voted against it. After the meeting, a State Department counterterrorism official, Michael Sheehan, sought out Mr. Clarke. Both told me that they were stunned. Mr. Sheehan asked Mr. Clarke: "What's it going to take to get them to hit al Qaeda in Afghanistan? Does al Qaeda have to attack the Pentagon?"

There is much more to Mr. Clinton's record--how Predator drones, which spotted bin Laden three times in 1999 and 2000, were grounded by bureaucratic infighting; how a petty dispute with an Arizona senator stopped the CIA from hiring more Arabic translators. While it is easy to look back in hindsight and blame Bill Clinton, the full scale and nature of the terrorist threat was not widely appreciated until 9/11. Still: Bill Clinton did not fully grasp that he was at war. Nor did he intuit that war requires overcoming bureaucratic objections and a democracy's natural reluctance to use force. That is a hard lesson. But it is better to learn it from studying the Clinton years than reliving them.

Mr. Miniter, a fellow at the Hudson Institute, is author of "Disinformation: 22 Media Myths that Undermine the War on Terror" (Regnery, 2005).

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by marden

I can't do much more than explain my thoughts on the matter to you. I can't defend it because there is no proof. It is a superstition. You seemed to be unaware of the superstitious aspects of why someone might not want to play around like that. I shared my belief and experience.

I can't defend it.

What more can be said?

That's fair. My point was just that there's no reason Besson should feel guilty about making a joke about his mother dying.

[Cody Dawg]

Oh, that's very funny.

Droll, in fact.

Haw. Haw.

Why doesn't he just call up his mother and say, "Hey, Ma, you still alive? I was making jokes about how you died today."

Like I said, not very funny joke material.

[Chuckit]

No, it wasn't very funny. Most jokes aren't. No reason to feel guilty either.

[sek929]

I used that joke literally hundreds of times. I think if my mére heard about it she would think of it as a rather funny thing to say to somone who mentioned your mother and then tried to backpedal out of an awkward situation.

But my family always had a great sense of humor.

[smacintush]

Well, considering where this thread has gone I'm sure that none of you give a rodents rump about my opinion on this matter, but since no one seems to be discussing the topic anyway I'm gonna throw it on out there:

First of all, though I do understand why people didn't like the whole idea of Clinton being grilled about sex in a grand jury, I still have to ask: is it REALLY OK for a sitting President of the United States to lie to a grand jury simply because he didn't like the questions he was being asked? If that's the case then I think that we can just throw out the perjury law altogether because I'm sure that most or all who are questioned by a grand jury are asked questions they don't like.

Secondly, those of you who buy that this "freak out" was calculated are deluding yourselves. This is just an example of what I already knew about Clinton long before he even left office:

Bill Clinton is an egomaniac concerned only with himself and his image.

Bill Clinton has a problem with the truth in general.

Bill Clinton is a phony.

Bill Clinton personally did almost nothing of substance while he was in office.

Bill Clinton is a smug jerk.

I don't care at all for Bush's mannerisms, he comes off very strangely to me and his speaking style is annoying as hell, but he never struck me as the sleazy type like Clinton. Clinton OOZES slime when he speaks. You lefties can argue Clintons policies and record until the end of time and that's fine, but if you can look at that man and actually trust what he says then you are a damn fool and are letting you politics/ideals get in the way of your better judgement.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by sek929

I used that joke literally hundreds of times. I think if my mére heard about it she would think of it as a rather funny thing to say to somone who mentioned your mother and then tried to backpedal out of an awkward situation.

But my family always had a great sense of humor.

I liked that one season of Survivor where that guy pretended his grandma was dead so people would let him win a challenge. And then the producers called his family to offer their condolences, and his grandmother answered the phone.

[DBursey]

My admiration for the guy's intellect aside; I can understand perfectly well why a married man would want to 'evade capture' when it came to personal questions regarding his marital fidelity.

Me? Cheat? Oh heck, sure ... ya got me.

Perhaps we Canadians have a totally different perspective on what counts in a leader; given that we had Pierre Trudeau, who famously opined that the state has no affair in the bedrooms of the nation while engaging in a few of his own.

We're a much less morally sanctimonious crowd by and large. America has its bible belt, Canada has a bible ... button? Cufflink?

America gets a crew cut. Canada goes for a Brazilian

[Cody Dawg]

Wax.

A Brazilian Wax.

[DBursey]

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by DBursey

My admiration for the guy's intellect aside; I can understand perfectly well why a married man would want to 'evade capture' when it came to personal questions regarding his marital fidelity.

My disdain for sleazy, womanizing egomaniacs aside, I see what you are saying…but perjury is perjury.

The grand jury is the time to say "aw shucks, yeah ya got me."

[Cody Dawg]

What a GREAT post smacintush.



Yeah, Clinton - and his fanboys - will never understand that. If he's 60 and he doesn't "get" it, then he's beyond hope.

Hillary has the same mentality.

[G Barnett]

Originally Posted by smacintush

My disdain for sleazy, womanizing egomaniacs aside, I see what you are saying…but perjury is perjury.

The grand jury is the time to say "aw shucks, yeah ya got me."

And yet you're willing to let six years of malfeasance in office slide, eh?

All those signing statements Bush's made, in which he's basically said "I'll sign the law, but you can't make me enforce it!" are a gross dereliction of duty, thus, malfeasance.

And yet one lie about a quickie in the Oval Office is somehow worse?

[DBursey]

Yeah, Clinton - and his fanboys - will never understand that.

Don't confuse comprehension with concurrence.

Smackintush (still the best MacNN handle IMHO), I understand your point. I too would've called it a day by the grand jury stage. Perhaps Clinton was motivated in part by his reluctance to give in to what he perceived as a Republican smear campaign.

[Cody Dawg]

The law is the law.

The law is not, "Tell the truth only if YOU think it matters."

The law is not, "Tell YOUR version of the truth."

The law is "TELL THE TRUTH - THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH."

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by DBursey

Don't confuse comprehension with concurrence.

Smackintush (still the best MacNN handle IMHO), I understand your point. I too would've called it a day by the grand jury stage. Perhaps Clinton was motivated in part by his reluctance to give in to what he perceived as a Republican smear campaign.

I think Clinton was just a fantastic politician. He convinced himself that he had not had sex with that woman.

[besson3c]

Who cares? He got delete, he lied about it. Really, not a big deal... end of story.

No offense, but I think you are incredibly naive if you feel that this is unprecedented or incredibly news worthy. He got his delete, it's really not that glamorous a story. It only became so because sex sells and people seem to really puritan about sex in this society.

It wouldn't have affected his ability to do his job if it weren't a political liability, and it doesn't mean that because he lied once he was a compulsive liar about other things beyond that margin which you should unfortunately expect of any politician.

This is a non issue, really. Why are we still talking about this so many years later?

[DBursey]

The law is "TELL THE TRUTH - THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH."

touche ... and yet the law, like the truth, is a football in the great game of politics. Clinton, like Bush et al, is just another highly placed quarterback.

THey hate our freedoms! <fumble>

Iraqi WMD's! <out of bounds>

Damned lefties! <touchdown!>

He convinced himself that he had not had sex with that woman.

and therein lies the key to fooling the polygraph.

[Moderator]

Just to get on the record...and to prove once again that my mind is open....I think they were perfectly fair questions and wish all interviewers would ask all politicians questions like that. Softballs should not be guaranteed...

[itai195]

Originally Posted by DBursey

Don't confuse comprehension with concurrence.

Amen

You know, I can be pretty critical of some of Clinton's policies, just as I am critical of Bush. I don't think Clinton is perfect. I think it's wrong to lie to a grand jury. I just think it's dumb to get so hung up over it.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Who cares? He got a blowjob, he lied about it.

Under oath. That's like saying OJ Simpson picked up a piece of metal and wiggled it around a little bit.

[DBursey]

That's like saying OJ Simpson picked up a piece of metal and wiggled it around a little bit.

You guys have me LOLLing! Great bit of understatement.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Under oath. That's like saying OJ Simpson picked up a piece of metal and wiggled it around a little bit.

Whatever, still doesn't rock my world.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by G Barnett

And yet you're willing to let six years of malfeasance in office slide, eh?

All those signing statements Bush's made, in which he's basically said "I'll sign the law, but you can't make me enforce it!" are a gross dereliction of duty, thus, malfeasance.

You show me some real charges and we'll talk.

And yet one lie about a quickie in the Oval Office is somehow worse?

Yet again, are we talking about Bush or Clinton? So if Bush is WORSE that would somehow excuse Clinton? If not then why even bring Bush into this? Nevertheless, the last time a checked there have been no charges against Bush.

And as I said, I don't really care that he lied about a* or ten. We are talking about perjury. Answer my earlier question: Is it OK for a sitting President to lie to a grand jury simply because he doesn't like the question?

And why do we always forget about the FACT that this question came up during a LEGITIMATE investigation into real, SEX related accusations? In the context of a SEXUAL HARASSMENT case, inquiries into an inappropriate sexual relationship are perfectly justified IMO.

[DBursey]

So it wasn't all a republican witch-hunt?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by smacintush

You show me some real charges and we'll talk. .

There are many ways to lie without breaking the law. Why would there be any charges if he lied about something where a law wasn't broken, particularly if there is no way this can be proven in a court of law?

Politicians lie all the time - plain and simple. Some are what you might call "white lies", but lies are lies. There is very little fundamental difference between Clinton's lie and any other lie with exception to the fact that he carried it on for a long time thinking that it would blow over or that he would get away with it. Big deal, politicians carry on lies when it is in their best interest to do so.


Why is this still an issue? Really? This is completely a non-issue. He lied under oath about an insignificant issue... okay... why are we still tearing our hair out about this? And more importantly, why is this non-issue split down partisan lines?