[design219]

Or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Jew?

If you are a Christian, you will probably say "Because I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and believe Him to be the living son of God who died for the redemption of man" ... or something like that.

I think a better answer is because you were born into a Christian family or at some point formed a close association with Christian people who influenced you to believe as they do. The same goes for all faiths.

A child born at the exact same time as you on the other side of the world may has a very different belief system from yours solely by luck of their birth place.

Does anyone dispute this? Is their a better reason why some people are Christian, or Muslim, or whatever?

[OldManMac]

I was a Christian precisely because I was born into a family that practiced Christianity (at least as far as attending church). I would suspect that most people believe the way they do simply because that's part of their upbringing and socialization.

[turtle777]

I like it.

-t

[Railroader]

Because God changed my heart. Seriously, that's the only way it can happen. To say I had any input into it is to be theologically wrong.

Nearly my entire family is NOT Christian. And over 50% label themselves as atheists. The couple of family members that are Christian became Christians after I became one. We get ridiculed at family gatherings often.

I associated and hung around with atheists before I became a Christian. I was not "peer pressured" into become a Christian. As a matter of fact, I was the guy peer pressuring Christians into becoming atheists. Basically, my story is that of a Saul who became a Paul if you will.

No one "led me to Christ" or convinced me of it. If you want to get nitpicky, I did have a copy of the Bible, but being as the Bible is the most printed text on Earth, most people have a couple copies.

Now, answer these questions: Why did you start this thread? Don't you think the thread title is a bit misleading? You didn't really want to have any discussion or dialogue. Don't you think a more honest thread title would be: "You only have whatever beliefs you have because of your upbringing/culture/family/friends/geographical location"?

Again, another anti-religious thread started by a non-religious person. How typical.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Again, another anti-religious thread started by a non-religious person. How typical.

Ah, let's be nice and pray that they still go to hell Beijing airport heaven.

-t

[Atomic Rooster]

A lot of people say they're Christian but they're not really. They only pretend they believe in Jesus when someone dies or some other life crisis. They need to feel comfort. Thats the whole idea...comfort.

Frankly, I'm a Pixel. I have put my faith in Pixies.

[besson3c]

I'm a Christian because a snake gave me an apple in some garden while I was naked, I think.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm a Christian because a snake gave me an apple in some garden while I was naked, I think.

You callin' Eve a snake? Them's smitin' words.

[el chupacabra]

Because I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and believe Him to be the living son of God who died for the redemption of man ... and those of you who reject him or commit blasphemy are cursed to hell.

Originally Posted by design219 

I think a better answer is because you were born into a Christian family or at some point formed a close association with Christian people who influenced you to believe as they do.

I was Siddhattha Gautama Buddhist (atheist). Buddhists introduced me to Christianity.

A child born at the exact same time as you on the other side of the world may has a very different belief system from yours solely by luck of their birth place.

thats fine.

[Sage]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

... and those of you who reject him or commit blasphemy are cursed to hell.

Cool!

Seriously though, as a militant atheist, I’m going to say something that might sound strange – thank you for actually saying that. I hate trying to have discussions/debates with Christians who try to tip-toe around the less, uh, “likable” aspects of Christianity. Conversely, I have much more respect for someone if they’re willing to be forthright with me, and I can have an honest discussion with them.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Sage 

Cool!

Seriously though, as a militant atheist, I’m going to say something that might sound strange – thank you for actually saying that. I hate trying to have discussions/debates with Christians who try to tip-toe around the less, uh, “likable” aspects of Christianity. Conversely, I have much more respect for someone if they’re willing to be forthright with me, and I can have an honest discussion with them.

Well, let me be forthright: you're going to hell.

And you know: hell for Atheists is a great place, but full of Christians
So you actually might go to heaven, but not like it.

-t

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Sage 

Cool!

Seriously though, as a militant atheist, I’m going to say something that might sound strange – thank you for actually saying that. I hate trying to have discussions/debates with Christians who try to tip-toe around the less, uh, “likable” aspects of Christianity. Conversely, I have much more respect for someone if they’re willing to be forthright with me, and I can have an honest discussion with them.

I always have to wonder, though, whether such forthright people are really being forthright with themselves. Can you really tell someone they're going to be mercilessly tortured without feeling like it's a little bit, y'know, wrong? Why would you willingly worship such a demon? I kind of doubt so many people are so callous. I have to believe there's some kind of cognitive dissonance involved. (I'm being similarly forthright here. I hope nobody is too badly offended.)

Anyway, the idea that somebody is damned to Hell just because he doesn't currently believe in Christ is not exactly Biblical. Logic tells us, and the Bible agrees, that it's entirely within Christ's power to reveal himself to us and he'll do so in his own time. It also tells us that Jesus' sacrifice was for everybody, not just a certain special subset of people. And lastly, Christ explicitly warns us not to judge our fellow man in his place. So I think a Christian could quite honestly admit that he's not qualified to tell me where I'm going when I die.

[Chuckit]

As for me: The OP's hypothesis is wrong. I'm Buddhist because I find Buddhist teachings and practices are good for me. I initially got interested in it by reading a book. Nobody in my family agrees with my beliefs and I didn't know any others when I started practicing. I'm sure there are some people who are the same way with Christianity or Judaism or what-have-you.

[MacosNerd]

I'm a Christian because as RR said, God changed my heart. I realized my sins were dooming my to an enternity of hell. My family is Catholic and thought I went off the deep end when I started reading the Bible.

While this thread like many others are started to belittle Christians, either overtly, or in a backhanded way. It does provide me with the oppratunity to say what I believe since its the most important thing I've ever did.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Again, another anti-religious thread started by a non-religious person. How typical.

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

While this thread like many others are started to belittle Christians, either overtly, or in a backhanded way.

This is the thing about most faiths that I have problems with. If you question it, you are "anti" or "belittling" that belief. There are hundreds of discussions around religion on this board, but I was interested in how people come to, or think they come to, their beliefs.

I should have added "atheist" into the beliefs I mentioned in the op, that was an oversight.

Thanks for sharing your background. I don't doubt your individual paths, but I still don't believe it is typical for people to come to a belief without cultural influence.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Buddhists introduced me to Christianity.

That is really cool. Do the Christian reciprocate?

[Faust]

I'm Christian by birth, have a Jewish background and spent most of my childhood in a Muslim country. I'm agnostic by choice, so not really a Christian, except on paper.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by design219 

That is really cool. Do the Christian reciprocate?

Are you mocking me?!?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by design219 

This is the thing about most faiths that I have problems with. If you question it, you are "anti" or "belittling" that belief. There are hundreds of discussions around religion on this board, but I was interested in how people come to, or think they come to, their beliefs.

I am asking you to be honest. You thread title was not honest.

You are not really interested in knowing how we came to believe what we do. You are interested in telling us that our culture has made us believe what we do.

Please, be honest.

Originally Posted by design219 

... but I still don't believe it is typical for people to come to a belief without cultural influence.

Now this, is what your thread is about. You want to be belittle people's beliefs and tell them they probably only believe what they do because of their culture/socialization.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Ah, let's be nice and pray that they still go to hell Beijing airport heaven.

-t

More mocking by the anti-religious.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by design219 

I think a better answer is because you were born into a Christian family or at some point formed a close association with Christian people who influenced you to believe as they do. The same goes for all faiths.

The same applies for everything in life, not just faith/religion.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by design219 

I still don't believe it is typical for people to come to a belief without cultural influence.

Then explain all the conversion in Africa, Asia and India. Those are areas that do not have a history of cultural Christianity. Missionaries/priests put their lives at risk proselytizing everyday, especially in areas where there are Muslims.
The Mormons are very active in Asia. One of my coworkers was in South Korea for his two years. Another (born in South Korea), spent her days off leaving copies of "Watchtower" everywhere. She was not born into a JW family.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by design219 

If you are a Christian, you will probably say "Because I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and believe Him to be the living son of God who died for the redemption of man" ... or something like that.

So... why ask? If you're already this resolved in your opinion, what was it you had hoped to attain by fronting the questions?

I think a better answer is because you were born into a Christian family or at some point formed a close association with Christian people who influenced you to believe as they do. The same goes for all faiths.

The same is true of any notion or view. Non-Christians or those in general disbelief of any religious doctrine like to cite this as evidence of some kind when in reality it means almost nothing in the broader scope. I concede, most Christians are "Chreasters" who celebrate their faith twice a year, then come home and watch the ballgame. This may be the Christianity to which you refer and is generally the product of an obligatory practice founded by a traditional upbringing. However, there are other Christians who came to Christianity at the most profound points in their lives, witnessing things they could only explain as "extra-coincidental", do not a priori reject the supernatural, and accept the Biblical account as the most plausible to them. This could happen as easily in the East as it does the West.

A child born at the exact same time as you on the other side of the world may has a very different belief system from yours solely by luck of their birth place.

... and yet may denounce it in favor of another or nothing at all... or back again.

Does anyone dispute this? Is their a better reason why some people are Christian, or Muslim, or whatever?

"better" is entirely subjective. To some there is no "better".

[Shaddim]

Yet another opportunity to abuse the religious types, how creative.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Are you mocking me?!?

Not my intent. You make an interesting point that I will pick up on. Buddhist are very open and accepting of other faiths. The same cannot generally be said of Christians, Muslims and many other beliefs. You are proving that point by being so defensive, but I completely understand your reaction. You are a Christian and obviously have a strong faith. That's great, and I can respect that.

On the other hand, I was raised in a Christian environment and was terrified of God, the Devil, blood drinking rituals, etc. as a child. I have rejected religion as an adult. I honestly don't understand how any group can believe they alone hold the keys to eternity while others, who have never even been exposed to that belief, are condemned. I think It is an interesting human social construct. But looking again at my op, I don't think it was intentionally worded to offend.

If you don't like a discussion topic, don't discuss it, but don't presume I have any agenda. ( I criticize atheist too for presuming to know too much. )

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by design219 

Not my intent. You make an interesting point that I will pick up on. Buddhist are very open and accepting of other faiths. The same cannot generally be said of Christians, Muslims and many other beliefs. You are proving that point by being so defensive, but I completely understand your reaction. You are a Christian and obviously have a strong faith. That's great, and I can respect that.

So, you going to admit you made a mistake or edit your post?

Originally Posted by design219 

On the other hand, I was raised in a Christian environment and was terrified of God, the Devil, blood drinking rituals, etc. as a child. I have rejected religion as an adult. I honestly don't understand how any group can believe they alone hold the keys to eternity while others, who have never even been exposed to that belief, are condemned. I think It is an interesting human social construct.

"blood drinking rituals, etc."?!?! Fear of the Devil?!? Let me guess, Catholic? I'm, also going to guess that you didn't read the Bible much while you were a Catholic.

Originally Posted by design219 

But looking again at my op, I don't think it was intentionally worded to offend.

If you don't like a discussion topic, don't discuss it, but don't presume I have any agenda. ( I criticize atheist too for presuming to know too much. )

So, you can't see how saying this...

Originally Posted by design219 

I think a better answer is because ...

... is condescending or mocking?

You are basically saying you know why we believe what we do more than we do ourselves. How much more condescending can you get?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Yet another opportunity to abuse the religious types, how creative.

Why do you think that is? You certainly don't see the people of a faith mocking or being openly condescending to non-believers around here.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Why do you think that is? You certainly don't see the people of a faith mocking or being openly condescending to non-believers around here.

Not true, you see people of faith mocking those that display "faith" in things that are incompatible with people of faith's view. E.g. Christians against gays.

-t

[brassplayersrock²]

give it a rest rr. you always take bait. surprise us for once, and stop ****ing up this thread.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

give it a rest rr. you always take bait. surprise us for once, and stop ****ing up this thread.

This thread, and conversation, was ****ed before it started.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Not true, you see people of faith mocking those that display "faith" in things that are incompatible with people of faith's view. E.g. Christians against gays.

-t

Show me a thread that was started by a person of faith that mocks or says anything about Christianity and homosexuality? Just one.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

give it a rest rr. you always take bait. surprise us for once, and stop ****ing up this thread.

So, you think design219 should be banned for baiting?

I am actually keeping this thread on topic, unlike you who is derailing it.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Not true, you see people of faith mocking those that display "faith" in things that are incompatible with people of faith's view. E.g. Christians against gays.

-t

"against" gays? Where? Just because some people may not approve of a lifestyle doesn't mean they're "against" the people who live it.

A person can live however they want, provided they don't harm others, but that doesn't mean they require everyone's endorsement.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

So, you going to admit you made a mistake or edit your post?

What mistake?

Originally Posted by Railroader 

"blood drinking rituals, etc."?!?! Fear of the Devil?!? Let me guess, Catholic? I'm, also going to guess that you didn't read the Bible much while you were a Catholic.

No, Baptist, and I've probably read more of the Bible than the average person, but I'm no Bible scholar. So many chapters about burning guts. Ew.

What do you have against Catholics? Aren't they Christians too?
(I never liked communion, even if it supposed to be symbolic of drinking blood)

Originally Posted by Railroader 

So, you can't see how saying this...

I think a better answer is because ...

... is condescending or mocking?

Not really. I thought it was a starting point of discussion, and starting with my opinion (a good way to start a discussion). Again, I think Christian are way too sensitive and defensive.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You are basically saying you know why we believe what we do more than we do ourselves. How much more condescending can you get?

I didn't say anything like that. I don't claim to KNOW the answers, but yes, I have my thoughts on the matter, and this is a place to discuss.

Why not talk about my premise? If you had been born in Iran, wouldn't you most likely be a Muslim?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

"against" gays? Where? Just because some people may not approve of a lifestyle doesn't mean they're "against" the people who live it.

…but if somebody suggests that there are cultural reasons behind your beliefs, that's "abuse"?

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

design929

*giggle*

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

…but if somebody suggests that there are cultural reasons behind your beliefs, that's "abuse"?

People don't care ****-all about cultural reasons, they just want to keep beating a dead horse and heaping ridicule upon the people of faith on this forum, and it's been going on for years.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

*giggle*

I too laugh at passive aggressive stuff

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

People don't care ****-all about cultural reasons, they just want to keep beating a dead horse and heaping ridicule upon the people of faith on this forum, and it's been going on for years.

Wait, are you telling me it bothers you when people openly express disapproval of your lifestyle?

[subego]

Originally Posted by design219 

I thought it was a starting point of discussion, and starting with my opinion (a good way to start a discussion).

If you're actually interested in a discussion, judging by the results here it should come as no surprise to you that what you say above is in fact, the worst way to do it.

At best it invites others to give their opinion as well, which is a completely different animal than a discussion.

In reality, since you decided to make a value judgment about how your answer is "better" even before someone has had a chance to respond, I find it hard to believe you're actually even interested in that.

Which frankly, is fine. If you have an axe to grind, grind away with your bad self, but don't get all confused-like when people treat your rant like a rant.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I always have to wonder, though, whether such forthright people are really being forthright with themselves. Can you really tell someone they're going to be mercilessly tortured without feeling like it's a little bit, y'know, wrong? Why would you willingly worship such a demon?

Most religious people aren't worshiping Satan. With Christianity you are told whats going to happen and how to get out of it, God's just sitting there waiting for people to ask to be saved. So I dont see it as so wrong considering people get to choose their situation.

Im wondering why people feel the need to convince everybody else not to be religious? Maybe it's because they think we don't have enough people in society reveling in in crude, drunken, sexual absurdities?

Anyway, the idea that somebody is damned to Hell just because he doesn't currently believe in Christ is not exactly Biblical.

That is true. That's why I said people who "reject" or commit blasphemy are damned to hell. Because someone can't reject Christ or any religion if they never heard of him/it; or grew up in a part of the world with a different prevailing religion. I don't have a problem with people who think religion is silly. Obviously it would seem silly to someone who hasn't really gotten into it. I have a problem with people who have heard of it, dont know much about it, think it's silly, and then use that reasoning to mock and criticize it.... That's the blasphemy part.

Logic tells us, and the Bible agrees, that it's entirely within Christ's power to reveal himself to us and he'll do so in his own time. It also tells us that Jesus' sacrifice was for everybody, not just a certain special subset of people. And lastly, Christ explicitly warns us not to judge our fellow man in his place. So I think a Christian could quite honestly admit that he's not qualified to tell me where I'm going when I die.

I'm glad you bring this up. Because it's one of those parts of the bible people often choose to skip. Christ said he reveals himself to everyone on the planet in one way or another. One doesn't need to have a bible to know christ. Most religions such as christianisty/islam/buddhist don't condemn people to hell for being of another faith . And I may not be able to tell/judge YOU specfically, that you're going to hell, because I don't know you; but I can say according to the religion if one 'rejects' christ - fighting the religion like people do on macnn, they go to hell (even though hell isnt really a place to go, but thats a different topic).

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Wait, are you telling me it bothers you when people openly express disapproval of your lifestyle?

The atheists on this forum are against the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. on this forum, not just their lifestyles, but the individuals themselves. There have been years of baiting, attacks, and belittlement.

tol·er·ance (n.)
1. sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own.

Is it possible for the atheists around here to practice this? So far, the answer is no.

From another thread:

You can't reconcile Adam and Eve with evolution. Besides, it's pointless to argue with people who believe in talking snakes and talking donkeys.

Ridiculous notions deserve ridicule. If you tell me the world is flat, I'm gonna make fun of you.

It would seem that MacNN atheists need to learn how to play nice with others.

[design219]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Christ said he reveals himself to everyone on the planet in one way or another. One doesn't need to have a bible to know christ.

Hey, that's something interesting. Where would I find where Christ said that? I don't think I've ever heard that stated before.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

…but if somebody suggests that there are cultural reasons behind your beliefs, that's "abuse"?

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

People don't care ****-all about cultural reasons, they just want to keep beating a dead horse and heaping ridicule upon the people of faith on this forum, and it's been going on for years.

Waitaminnit... Did you actually report this thread?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by subego 

Waitaminnit... Did you actually report this thread?

Oh, I wasn't talking about an abuse report. He said (in a post) that the OP was using this thread to "abuse the religious types."

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Oh, I wasn't talking about an abuse report. He said (in a post) that the OP was using this thread to "abuse the religious types."

Got it. My bad. Never mind.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by design219 

That is really cool. Do the Christian reciprocate?

first of all you misquoted rr. I said that.
to answer your question, no. It is not in Christian nature to do that.. or any religion. The Buddhists did not mean to convert me to another religion. They were trying to convert me to their sect of Buddhism (Gautama did not believe in reincarnation or anything supernatural-he had no opinion of the matter at all because he said there was no evidence). Part of the new-age-Buddhist selling point is trying to find similarities that link all religions together; by first educating people about different religions. The version of buddhism that believes in reincarnation is closer to Hindu than to original buddhism of Gautama.

I honestly don't understand how any group can believe they alone hold the keys to eternity while others, who have never even been exposed to that belief, are condemned.

Most people don't.... even during christs time, thats why he was asked about that. There's nothing new or profound in realizing that there are many religions and cultures that wont learn of christ, or mohammed or whoever; and how unfair it is....

[design219]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

first of all you misquoted rr. I said that.

Most people don't.... even during christs time, thats why he was asked about that.

My apologies to railroader, I think I had the multi quote and screwed up.

I'm glad to hear that most believe they are exclusive. The group that I was raised with tended to think that way.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Most religions such as christianisty/islam/buddhist don't condemn people to hell for being of another faith .

In my understanding and experience, most Christian doctrine believes that it is the only true way - Jesus says this in John 14:6.

Originally Posted by design219 

Hey, that's something interesting. Where would I find where Christ said that? I don't think I've ever heard that stated before.

I'm guessing this is the passage he's referring to:

Originally Posted by Romans 1:18-23

But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.[i] 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

first of all you misquoted rr. I said that.
to answer your question, no. It is not in Christian nature to do that.. or any religion. The Buddhists did not mean to convert me to another religion. They were trying to convert me to their sect of Buddhism (Gautama did not believe in reincarnation or anything supernatural-he had no opinion of the matter at all because he said there was no evidence). Part of the new-age-Buddhist selling point is trying to find similarities that link all religions together; by first educating people about different religions. The version of buddhism that believes in reincarnation is closer to Hindu than to original buddhism of Gautama.

I'm curious: How do you figure? This doesn't mesh at all with my impressions of early Buddhist tradition. I don't recall off the top of my head any Buddhist works where he denies the reality of devas or death and rebirth. Obviously he didn't believe in the Hindu idea of reincarnation (which involved a soul), but he's pretty consistently portrayed as believing that rebirth follows death.