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ablaze · May 21, 2001, 01:50 PM

Now this is a surprise, isn't it?

Severed Hand of Skywalker · May 21, 2001, 01:54 PM

OS9.1 is still the default though. How does that work?

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ablaze · May 21, 2001, 01:57 PM

That means (as I see it) two partitions with OS9 as Default Start-Volume! Probably like: "Try it out, but for DVD and stuff boot back to OS9!"

Severed Hand of Skywalker · May 21, 2001, 01:59 PM

That doesn't sound like much fun for new users. Hope they come out with one hell of a bug fix for OSX today.

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JFK2000 · May 21, 2001, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
OS9.1 is still the default though. How does that work?

Maybe OS 9.1 is just selected in the start up disk preference. That way if someone wants to try OSX, they also learn at the same time how to switch back to OS 9. Eventhough it is an easy operation, by making it a necessary exercise for those wanting to try X, they are sure to know from hands on experience how to go back.

Cooter · May 21, 2001, 02:02 PM

I'm growing weary of waiting for DVD playback. If they're gonna pre-install OSX, they need to give us some GD DVD playback!

JFK2000 · May 21, 2001, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by ablaze:
Now this is a surprise, isn't it?

I am an OSX fan, but this decision makes me wonder if apple actually thinks X in its present state is really something for the general Mac population.

I would feel more comfortable with the decision if it came along with a major update.

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Always go to other people's funerals or they won't come to yours.

dws · May 21, 2001, 02:05 PM

I strongly doubt that Apple would partition the internal hard drive. This is way too geeky for most people to handle. It's possible, I suppose, but it would create quite a large learning curve for grandma to deal with as she turns on her new Dalmation iMac.

I think that "default" simply means that this will be the OS that the machine first starts up in.

The big question... Is 10.1 ready?

Severed Hand of Skywalker · May 21, 2001, 02:09 PM

I think that this will be a mess. If you boot into OS9 then all the OSX files on the same partition or separate are visible. New users can move and copy invisible files and will get confused with files that start with a .mach type thing. Also they will be saving their AppleWorks files into the system folder of OSX if they don't know what the hell they are doing.

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t_hah · May 21, 2001, 02:11 PM

Great move Apple.

The way I look at this is that Apple wants to make sure everyone will be able to make the move to OSX when it is time. Thy include OSX on their machines from now on and then noone will complain about not being able to partition their drives, or cannot backup the data. Now it is all there.

I wonder what build of OSX do the new machines come with.

t

MikeM32 · May 21, 2001, 02:13 PM

That doesn't sound like much fun for new users. Hope they come out with one hell of a bug fix for OSX today

Yes I definitely agree there. I'm really hoping there's some big OS update coming out while the site is currently being updated (now being about 2:00 pm E.S.T. May 21st).

I'm still playing the "trying to use OSX more" game here at home, but OS 9.1 is still kicking it's collective butt.

I'm actually starting to lose interrest in general in the whole "keeping up on what's going on at Apple" game also :-/

Mike

typoon · May 21, 2001, 02:15 PM

Awesome. This is great news. BTW the new cinema display is sweet too. 17" WOW. I'm glad they are shipping it pre-installed today and letting everyone get used to using it. I think now hopefully developers will see Apple's commitment to OS X and speed up development of there new carbonized products.

JFK2000 · May 21, 2001, 02:15 PM

Maybe it's not actually installed on the machines. Maybe OS 9.1 or 9.2? is installed and the OSX software is just included.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · May 21, 2001, 02:23 PM

Here are your answers: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/may/21macosx.html

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pete · May 21, 2001, 02:25 PM

I'm losing interest too. You buy an os, install it and want it to work smoothly and swiftly. It's that simple for most people. Most people don't have DSL or cable to update their operating systems every few weeks and Apple does not send you free updates on cd. Modem takes ages for big files. How can they expect people to keep up to date? For all those people who have been saying that Apple isn't pushing MAcOs X and that we should wait until the summer when it becomes standard on all machines.....well we're there now- kind of. Apple is pushing it and basically t elling people it's ready to use for the average person. I don't think it is and I think it'll be really confusing for new users to go back and forth.Will there be some kind of interface to make it easier? Some people don't even know what an operating system is! It's a mess. I hope Apple has done something to clean up and preempt the mess.

iKent · May 21, 2001, 03:28 PM

So they're installing X on an iMac or iBook with only 64 meg of RAM? What's wrong with that picture?

May 21, 2001, 03:33 PM

I have just returned from the Apple store. People gravitate to the OS X machines like magnets, so for the pure "oh it's cool" factor, preinstalling is a good idea. Practically speaking, the folder layout is confusing to newbies (the os 9 documents folder vs the user documents folder really throws people for starters). Also it is clear that longtime MacOS users totally "get" classic, while newbies find it really confusing.

If X is going to be preinstalled apple needs to do a couple of things: 1) release a real significant update 2) provide a training app (for both 9 and X) and 3) release a decent manual.

They would also be wise to have the OS 9 config app also config OS X (especially internet), and they should add a "restart to X" to OS 9 and a "restart to 9" to OS X.

SkullMacPN · May 21, 2001, 03:33 PM

Cool move. This will acomplish several things:

- It will kill any resent about having to "pay a $130 tax" on a new computer if you want to try OS X.
- Apple can now tell developers that there are [number of macs shipped + number of OS X copies shipped] installed copies of OS X, luring them into Carbonizing or writing new apps.
- A dev can no longer complain that OS X isn't pre-installed on all Macs, therefore he/she/it doesn't want to develop for it. One could argue that its not the default OS, however that is quite a weak arguement since users could make the switch back to OS 9 once OS X ships as the default OS!
- It gives new computer buyers a chance to explore OS X without really paying for an unpolished OS.

hmurchison2001 · May 21, 2001, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by pete:
I'm losing interest too. You buy an os, install it and want it to work smoothly and swiftly. It's that simple for most people. Most people don't have DSL or cable to update their operating systems every few weeks and Apple does not send you free updates on cd. Modem takes ages for big files. How can they expect people to keep up to date? For all those people who have been saying that Apple isn't pushing MAcOs X and that we should wait until the summer when it becomes standard on all machines.....well we're there now- kind of. Apple is pushing it and basically t elling people it's ready to use for the average person. I don't think it is and I think it'll be really confusing for new users to go back and forth.Will there be some kind of interface to make it easier? Some people don't even know what an operating system is! It's a mess. I hope Apple has done something to clean up and preempt the mess.

Drivel! Apple is NOT your Personal Entertainment Center(PEC). If you don't have a Cable Modem or DSL then simply wait. Why do some of you think new users are dumb? I've seen new users do better on Macs than so called guru's because some will RTFM. Apple has saved people the expen$e of shelling out $130 for OSX. They've put money and value back into the machines. Why don't we consider this one a "glass is half full" scenario for once.

Richard Clark · May 21, 2001, 03:39 PM

It is a surprise.

For one they did not release Puma today. A significant update is needed especially for general users. Us die hards can handle it. But for Joe Schmoe or Joe Cool, they're gonna be scratching their heads.

Also it appears (I could be wrong) but OS X will be installed on top of OS 9.1. Yes I read that OS 9.1 will be default. That's not the issue. The issue is that if the HD is not divided into two volumes (one for 9.1 and the other for X) then major problems could arise with lose of data. Here's hoping they partition the drives.

IMHO Apple is putting the cart in front of the horse. OS X is not ready for this. The general audience is going to be playing with Dynamite with the current build of X. Getting it out the door was fine. BUT not releasing a major update and sending it out to the masses as is ??? It's like opening a Pandora's Box . Unless they want tech support to be working 24/7.

OwlBoy · May 21, 2001, 04:14 PM

Hmm, Im a new user:

What the hell is Mach? do I need a Mach.

::too the trash it goes::

Im Owl Boy now (^v^):

Cant you see this happening? people who have no clue they have 2 operating systems installed will no know that they cant remove such files/folders.

-Owl

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[email protected] www.owlboy.com

JFK2000 · May 21, 2001, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Richard Clark:
It is a surprise.

For one they did not release Puma today. A significant update is needed especially for general users. Us die hards can handle it. But for Joe Schmoe or Joe Cool, they're gonna be scratching their heads.

Also it appears (I could be wrong) but OS X will be installed on top of OS 9.1. Yes I read that OS 9.1 will be default. That's not the issue. The issue is that if the HD is not divided into two volumes (one for 9.1 and the other for X) then major problems could arise with lose of data. Here's hoping they partition the drives.

IMHO Apple is putting the cart in front of the horse. OS X is not ready for this. The general audience is going to be playing with Dynamite with the current build of X. Getting it out the door was fine. BUT not releasing a major update and sending it out to the masses as is ??? It's like opening a Pandora's Box . Unless they want tech support to be working 24/7.

I totally agree. As I said above, I am an OSX fan, but I don't think it is polished enough for the general user. By installing it on new hardware, it is like saying this is a finished, final release, which it is not. I think that will only create a negative impression of X . Just wait until the average user has trouble emptying the trash, or finds he can't play dvds or burn data disks or that half of his hardware isn't supported yet.

What do you think that is going to do for OSX's reputation? Hopefully apple isn't telling us about a major soon to be released update to address these issues.

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Always go to other people's funerals or they won't come to yours.

Bernard Ducamp · May 21, 2001, 04:52 PM

Another person wrote:
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I am an OSX fan, but I don't think it is polished enough for the general user. By installing it on new hardware, it is like saying this is a finished, final release, which it is not. I think that will only create a negative impression of X . Just wait until the average user has trouble emptying the trash, or finds he can't play dvds or burn data disks or that half of his hardware isn't supported yet.

What do you think that is going to do for OSX's reputation? Hopefully apple isn't telling us about a major soon to be released update to address these issues.
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My response:

I think it's great for OS X to be preloaded along with OS 9.

There are other threads in MacNN forums where people are saying "OS X is not complete,.....it has a long way to go....!!"

If you want a final, perfect, stable 100% operating system, then you will have to wait sooooooooo long. Yes in an ideal world the manufacturer gets all the bugs and problems worked out before releasing anything. But in the realities of our PC industry, there's a point where you get it out. PERIOD. Apple has reached that point. "It may not be perfect, but here it is."

Just think: will Microsoft be able to make a similar statement about XP??

Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead.

pmcd · May 21, 2001, 05:09 PM

It's a great idea. Count on this Forum to hear all the negative comments though. No wonder it's hardly worth coming here anymore.

Philip

Ron Goodman · May 21, 2001, 05:10 PM

And if the new users scew up OS X by playing with files or something, they can fix it just like we do been when they're ready to use it. I'm sure there will be CDs included with the machine that can reinstall the software. I think this is a good move on Apple's part--the bitching and complaining has been getting a little out of hand, at least around here, and here comes Apple saying "OS X is the future--get over it!".

iPond317 · May 21, 2001, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by iKent:
So they're installing X on an iMac or iBook with only 64 meg of RAM? What's wrong with that picture?

Oh, you mean that fact that Apple has pics posted all over their hardware products page for OS X requiring a minimum of 128MB? Now why would that be a problem?

Apple better have a big update for OS X ready and it better be released SOON!

But I'm assuming that there is no major update available because of Apple's new "Up-to-date" program they are running now. It says that users will get the latest version of Mac OS X, but that build number that of 10.0.3 (4P13). In my opinion Apple should not have decided to do this unless these new machines are running X at an acceptable and optimal speed unlike those of us that already have it are experiencing.

One other thing... What's the deal with X Server? Is it faster and more optimized than X client?

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Think different.
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"I'm so afraid, the way I feel. Days when the rain and the sun are gone. Black as night. Agony's torn at my heart too long. So afraid, slip and I fall and I die..." - Lindsey Buckingham

matthewmodern · May 21, 2001, 05:43 PM

Here's a relevant question: If files are made invisible in OS9, are they still invisible in OSX? Because otherwise, they could just make the mach.sym and /System and other stuff like that invisible when you are in OS9. Actually, that's a pretty nice solution. If you can, I'll do it on my machine myself.

iPond317 · May 21, 2001, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by matthewmodern:
Here's a relevant question: If files are made invisible in OS9, are they still invisible in OSX? Because otherwise, they could just make the mach.sym and /System and other stuff like that invisible when you are in OS9. Actually, that's a pretty nice solution. If you can, I'll do it on my machine myself.

Hidden files in OS 9 are still hidden under X, so yes. You could use ResEdit or some other program of choice to hide the mach.sym and all those annoying .DS_Store files in almost all directories that contain the OS X partition. Last time I tried though, after booting back into 9.1 from X, they were visible again. Anyone else tried?

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Think different.
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"I'm so afraid, the way I feel. Days when the rain and the sun are gone. Black as night. Agony's torn at my heart too long. So afraid, slip and I fall and I die..." - Lindsey Buckingham

Orbit · May 21, 2001, 06:42 PM

Umm... yeah... I'm one to defend OS X and its good points to the bitter end, but it may be a bit premature to preload it at this point. On the flipside, it ensures that spots where it's rough around the edges will get worked on *very* quickly, and developer support will be plentiful. I'm holding my breath..

(not really.. I need to breathe)

osiris · May 21, 2001, 07:07 PM

This is obviously Apple getting consumers use to X - which could be horrific under the current version, but at least they will gain exposure to it. And perhaps this will encourage developers to get on the ball with more software, including Apple themselves with some speed centric updates for X. But what a surprise this news was.

This also raises new questions - what will Steve announce at MWNY - the iBook is out and X is shipping, plus a new 17" LCD.... could I smell dual 1ghz G4s? 24" LCD?

What an exciting time it is to be using a Mac.