[mindwaves]

Well, no I haven't. But anything is possible. That is a quote to be remembered.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
You people are so silly to think that this little thing would end in a nuclear war. Now that China's 24 ICBMs have new guidance systems thank's to Clinton they could make it over here.


Have you ever seen one of those planes? I've been on one (not in the air though). They don't swerve and hit other things. They just fly straight. You a tool if you thing the US plane is at fault here. It's not. They hit our plane. Their guy crashed. Our plane landed at the nearest airstrip.

Yes, it is possible that the Orion hit the Chinese fighter - just unlikely.

Hell... now that I think about it... its not THAT unlikely... the Chinese fighter flies under the Orion, going to pull up in front of it and give the Orion a wash and a taste of its jets... it miscalculates and hits the Orion.

Or, the Orion crew freaks and tries to maneuvre a little. Hitting the Chinese fighter.

EITHER way, its the Chinese who are at fault.

Lets just agree on that, theres no point argueing about hwo crashed, cause we don't know.

Scott - indeed, I think its been blown out of proportion a little
Nothing will come of this. Not at the rate its going.


------------------

[AlbertWu]

Well, there is NO WAY that it could be the american's fault. That thing is completely unmanuverable and they could not have flown it sideways into the chinese fighter.

My guess is that the chinese sent some sort of unmanned fighter to knock it down,(to gather spy data)

that also explains why the pilot of the fighter has not been found. DUH

------------------

[ctt1wbw]

Originally posted by maxelson:

Originally posted by gumby5647:


[This message has been edited by gumby5647 (edited 04-04-2001).]

Want more irony and ridiculousness? The aircraft that the Chinese pilots were flying were... F8s. Yep. American made. Hmmmmm.[/B]

Hey man, do you know anything at all? The F-8 is not American made. It's a Chinese version of an ex-Soviet design. Next thing I hear is that everyone here thinks the Sovremmennyy DDG is American made too.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally posted by finboy:
Sorry, dude. The US certainly had F-8s during Vietnam. They were made by Chance/Vought (I think)

Sorry man, wrong F-8. It was called the Crusader. This is not the same F-8 that the Chinese have. Just because it's called the F-8 doesn't mean it's the same one.

[Not_Dark_Yet]

I am sure that George W. Bush, The Statesman, will handle this crisis just right . . . or maybe not . . .

------------------
To know that you know, and to know that you don't know, that is the real wisdom - CONFUCIUS

[edit: spelling]

[This message has been edited by Not_Dark_Yet (edited 04-05-2001).]

[maxelson]

Originally posted by mindwaves:
I would also like to add that people who think that a country is bad just because it is based on Communism is dumb. Communism has been given a bad name during the Cold War for many reasons.

Right you are. I tend to bash politics as a whole, rather than the type of political philosophy. We should also remember that Communism, as it was laid out by Marx, has never existed (to my knowledge) in human society- of course, I am barring a total lack of kowledge of smaller societies such as Magyar or Bedoin. I have no idea how powerstructure works there. In short, the term "Communism" as applied to, say China or the Former Soviet union is a total misnomer. The got themselves on the road, but could never really see themselves past the "period of societal control" that is used to get people used to the idea of true decentralized power.. Again, it's a great idea, but given human nature, it'll never work.

------------------
Hat, Hat, baby.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by ZO:
Absolutely, totally, completely.. WRONG

Get your facts straight. USA does not, has not, and will not sell US made fighters to China. Taiwan yes, but China is OUT of the question.

Look at the photographs of the jets. If you know anything about fighters you will see in an instant they resemble nothing the US has. MAYBE an F-4 a little, but thats it. And btw, the USA never had an F-8 fighter.
F-4 Phantom
F-5 Tigershark
F-14 Tomcat
F-15 Eagle
F-16 Falcon
F-18 Hornet
etc...

Begging your pardon, Jane. I am heartily sorry for having offended thee. My source of information was incorrect and I failed to recheck. Point taken. I do, however, deeply appreciate the verbal spanking. Thank you sir, may I have another?


------------------
Hat, Hat, baby.

[maxelson]

As it was so eloquently pointed out, I was in error as to the type of Chinese aircraft.
The correct information is that it was a J-8 Interceptor. http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-8.htm
Nothing remotely American about it. I promise to go home and read the enire Jane's library of publications tonight.

------------------
Hat, Hat, baby.

[Raman]

Originally posted by zac4mac:
Matsu, I agree in a large part with you.
At this point, and I hate to say it but, those men and women aren't worth a nuclear holocaust with China.
They knew the risks when they signed up.
And kissing China's A$$ with an apology is WRONG.

Z

And to Raman... go hang out in the Fifth Ward a$$hole, I'm not brainwashed. Very non-military/establishment minded here.I did six years and only avoided court-martial because I was good at fixing radios.

What the hell is the fifth ward? Brainwashed is the term my brother (ex navy used) so you can to fsck yourself. It's great to hear why you're not in jail.. I'm glad ppl like you contribute to this board and I'm even happier expendable ppl like you are defending my freedom. We shoudl trade you for thse that want to come back on free soil. Get a life.

[Scott_H]

So when do we start calling these people "hostages"?

[gwrjr33]

I liked John Derbyshire's take on things today.

What Does China Want?
Hint: They are Communists.

Colin Powell's statement of regret over the loss of that Chinese pilot is "a step in the right direction," honked a Chinese spokesman. "If the U.S. takes a co-operative approach," he further harangued, China "would consider arrangements" for another visit to the kidnapped crew. However, "the U.S. has made a mistake and should first apologize." The tone is that of a bossy schoolteacher lecturing a naughty child. You can almost see the finger wagging.

These kinds of arrogant threats, self-righteous bluster, and de haut en bas scolding are reflex actions for the Chinese leadership. This is how they talk to their own people. This is how Chinese interrogators address prisoners. Confess! And we'll go easy on you. While living in China, I myself got into a spot of trouble with the authorities. A Chinese friend instructed me in the required techniques of self-abasement. The two guiding principles were:

� Flatter the "leaders," criticize yourself.

� Make a big matter into a small matter.

Everyone in China knows this stuff. It's the way they live. The Chinese Communist Party is, according to its own doctrine and written histories, infallible. It follows that, if anything untoward happens, it must be someone else's fault. It is more than their pysche can tolerate to admit otherwise. To insist that the Party might be wrong in any way whatsoever is to attack the very ground of their being...

Of course, nobody is actually expected to believe in these things.

[Matsu]

I want to clarify 'expendable'. That is the way soldiers are treated, of course their actual value as humans is otherwise, but goverments tend to keep the needs of soldiers and their families second to other national priorities.

[ZO]

Originally posted by maxelson:
[/B]

Begging your pardon, Jane. I am heartily sorry for having offended thee. My source of information was incorrect and I failed to recheck. Point taken. I do, however, deeply appreciate the verbal spanking. Thank you sir, may I have another?


[/B][/QUOTE]

sorry about the snappy reply, but it was just a blatent mistake and the way you wrote it seemed like you just wanted to try to add more fuel to the fire.

I also stand corrected by a previous reader who noted that there *was* an American figher, the F-8. The F-8 Sabre. Used extensively in 'nam to bomb the hell out of.. well, everything.

They were good, but had their limitations. Eventually the F-4 Phantom became the workhorse in 'nam.

I didnt consider the F-8 becaus ethere is no way Chinese would be using a 50's technology today... well, then again looking at the rest of their inventory I wouldn't be surprised if they were.

They may have numerical superiority in their arsenal, but its pretty proportional to the USA in terms of population et al. They have A LOT more territory to cover for their borders and they have to always keep they surveyed seeing that Russia and China loathe eachother.

Their weapons, that could possibly be a real threat are minimal. They could never and would never attempt to attack the USA (at least at present day levels). They would get whooped so badly in the long run. We just need to have suffiecent number of missles to down all them Migs and it wont be a prob.

In 10 years? Still not much to worry about... 20? maybe... depends how much more confidential stuf they manage to get from us

[zac4mac]

Raman
e-mail me off-list, unlike you, i post my location and address.
Let's try and put an end to this flame and let this topic run its course.
BTW, the Fifth Ward is a VERY BAD place in Houston.(or it used to be, 20 years ago)

[Scott_H]

Will you two "Cool it" as my father, the ex Navy P3-C pilot, used to say. Just chill.

[olePigeon]

This is off topic, but someone listed a bunch of jets the Navy/Airforce has. What's everyones favorite jet(s)?

1) F-14 Tomcat <-- An oldie but still my favorite
2) Harrier (F-21?) <-- Just damn cool with the vertical **** . Looks kinda like a Hornet.
3) F-22 Somethingoranother (The semi-new spiffy stealth fighter/bomber with the multidirectional engines. ) <-- Cuz we can kick anyone's ass with 0 casualties.

[vega24]

China wants to be seen standing up to the evil United States. They want the rest of the world to see them as not being afraid. Taking a risk like this is not going to hurt China in the long term. China's economy is heavily dependent on US companies. China provides slave labor to US companies and US customers provide the cash to make these companies rich. Try buying a pair of shoes that are not made in China, in fact go shopping and try buying only products that are made in the USA. It has become nearly impossible. See, it's like this, US companies will ,in the end, make the decision for the outcome of this situation very easy for our fine President. They will say in a unified voice "Mr. President money talks and bullsh!t walks.

It all comes down to money. China has millions and millions of people in it that will work for next to nothing in pay. US companies see China as a the answer for higher profits. Why would they care to pay a US citizen at least minimum wage when they can pay someone in China 10 or 15 cents a hour. Companies get to make a product for half or three quarters of what it would cost to make it here in the US, but still charge the same price.

Some US congressmen and women have tried to show off in front of the American people. Saying if China doesn't release our servicemen and women we'll revoke China's Most Favored Nation status or we'll do something to hurt their economy, blah blah blah. That's all bullsh!t. In a country like this, where politicians can be bought and sold like some sort of commodity, nothing bad will ever happen to China.

I say this crisis will get smoothed over just like every other one. Don't expect world war 3 to happen or some crazy sh!t like that. This crisis will get defused before anything bad happens and we'll all continue on buying our made in China Nike's like nothing ever happened. It all just makes me want to puke.

EDIT: for some f*cking reason all my f*cking cus words turned out like this ****************. AGH After venting my fustrations and releasing my anger, I post my reply and what do I get, ******* instead of a real cus word. {b]AGH!!!![/b] Serious buzz kill, man.



[This message has been edited by vega24 (edited 04-05-2001).]

[zac4mac]

Sorry about the escalation. Shalee-done.

favorite military jet? so many.
F-101? Voodoo
F-104 Starfighter

Of the ones you listed, I'd pick the Harrier. They are surreal when hovering over the flight deck.

[Scott_H]

The plot thickens. We'll see these photos once our guys are back.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/05/chinese.pilot.photo/

[Cipher13]

Fave jet? F/A-18 Hornet E model. Sweet
Next would come the A-10 Thunderbolt II. Don't wanna get in the way of that thing with its Avenger...

Fave bomber... B-52. That thing just totally rocks.
Literally if you're on the ground


------------------

[ctt1wbw]

I think the B-52 falls under the category of "Phycological Warfare." There's just something mentally disturbing about putting that much lead down range. Just like the 16 inchers on the Iowa BB, which I contend to be the most powerful surface warship that has ever sailed the open ocean.

[DV]

Originally posted by zac4mac:
favorite military jet? so many.
F-101? Voodoo
F-104 Starfighter
.

The F-104 rules! That thing hardly has any wings!! But you have to admit the SR-71 is THE coolest jet (and airplane-- and spacecraft, almost) ever made-- I cried when they decommissioned it.

Dallas


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Click www.dallasvaughan.com for a good time </cheap_hits_generator>

[zac4mac]

In '94, I was working at HP and we had access to Unix boxes, Apollos I think, Mosaic was the browser and they had a FAT pipe.While there we found the Dryden Test Facility Pages... Tons of photos of experimental air and space vehicles, going back to the 40's, movies too. Smithsonian Air and Space also has good stuff.
When I was little, my pop got moved to Beeville, Texas, when NAS Chase Field was the only "all jet NAS in the country" They flew F9-F's and every once in a while you'd get to hear a sonic boom. Those are cool.
Later, in my teens, I saw a B-58 Hustler over NAS Corpus Christi. Huge airplane. We thought it was a Delta Dagger, but realized it was way too big.
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/modern_flight/mf58.htm

ya, I know that's not a B-58, but it is wild.

Z

[DV]

Originally posted by zac4mac:
[Bya, I know that's not a B-58, but it is wild.[/B]

"Stilletto" is a good name for it-- do they sharpen that nose?

BTW, why DID they decommission the SR71? Satellites, I know, but aren't there situations (like flying lower reconnaissance missions) that the Blackbird would be good at? It definitely wouldn't have had any trouble with those pesky F8 MiG wannabes. Just hit the afterburner, and... Seee yaaaa!!!!

Dallas

[Cipher13]

The B-58 is awesome.
Why decomission the SR-71? Well, it doesn't really matter, cause I'm sure they still use it anyway
Along with the U2s and whatnot.


------------------

[ctt1wbw]

I don't think that all of the SR-71 Blackbirds are gone. I think the USAF still has some in comission for use as R&D platforms.

[maxelson]

Originally posted by ctt1wbw:
Hey man, do you know anything at all? The F-8 is not American made. It's a Chinese version of an ex-Soviet design. Next thing I hear is that everyone here thinks the Sovremmennyy DDG is American made too.

Already covered, Jane II. And, hey, call me crazy, but I am thinking that the apparent hole in my knowledge of militarty aircraft at the international level does not exactly qualify for a "don't you know anything at all" kind of comment. Of course, as promised, I sat in the MIT library last night, all night, and memorized the entire library of Jane's publications, because my life was in sore need of this information. Lighten up.

[This message has been edited by maxelson (edited 04-06-2001).]

[maxelson]

Originally posted by ctt1wbw:
Hey man, do you know anything at all? The F-8 is not American made. It's a Chinese version of an ex-Soviet design. Next thing I hear is that everyone here thinks the Sovremmennyy DDG is American made too.

And, as also previously covered, the plane was not an F-8, it was a J-8 Interceptor- based on a Soviet design. Don't you know anything at all? Next you'll be telling me that the SAAB Viggen is engineered by the same company that makes... Oh. Huh. Looky here. It is. Those clever Swedes. Making a warplane and not actually using it in an armed conflict. The very idea.

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Hat, Hat, baby.

[This message has been edited by maxelson (edited 04-06-2001).]

[Macfreak7]

Anyone see the news?
They showed an interview with the second Chinese pilot where he claims to have seen the collision, and says that the US plane swerved and hit the Chinese jet.


And on the other hand... we have a chinese player making his NBA debut. So cool.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by maxelson:
And, as also previously covered, the plane was not an F-8, it was a J-8 Interceptor- based on a Soviet design. Don't you know anything at all?

Yeah, I should grab a copy of Janes.
Off the to of my head, the J-8 is a joke. Really. I can't remember, maybe thats the J-5? Or the J-7?
Ugh. I'm getting them mixed up with MiGs... I'm gonna have to refresh my memory, it been years since I read all that stuff.


------------------

[maxelson]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Yeah, I should grab a copy of Janes.
Off the to of my head, the J-8 is a joke. Really. I can't remember, maybe thats the J-5? Or the J-7?
Ugh. I'm getting them mixed up with MiGs... I'm gonna have to refresh my memory, it been years since I read all that stuff.

Hey Cipher- http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-8.htm
More than you ever wanted to know on this particular series of aircraft. The rest of the site is pretty informative, too.


------------------
Hat, Hat, baby.

[tioga]

A few years ago, a Chinese pilot defected to a US airbase in Japan in a late-model MIG, maybe a MIG-27. We had that plane disassembled in a matter of hours. There was no hue and cry about soveriegn territory, etc.
About a year ago, a Cuban defected to Florida in an old MIG. We let him stay, and sent that plane back intact.
Nuf said. Let's keep the hypocrisy in check, please.

[Daishi]

Originally posted by tioga:
A few years ago, a Chinese pilot defected to a US airbase in Japan in a late-model MIG, maybe a MIG-27. We had that plane disassembled in a matter of hours. There was no hue and cry about soveriegn territory, etc.

The difference is this: The MIG pilot defected. The Orion landed in a distress situation. Defections are a grey area for international law. Emergency landings are not.

------------------
i close my mouth now and i scream

[Apple_John]

Sure, China is spying on US. Every Nike shoe made in China has embedded a small chip to track down American movement. China gov�t use these data to see why Jordan can jump so high (the Chinese NBA player�), how fast is the stock broker walking on the exchange floor (slow him down can bring US into R-world), how much �gas, brake, horn� American driver doing on highways (SUV roll-over)� Also, beware of the Chinese restaurants, many of them are the secret spy offices. And they use the cookies for brain-washing. Don�t read them! Oh, one last thing, the Powerbook. There are many Chinese spy working in Taiwan Apple plant. 3.8% of Tibook has a small �Made in China� processor, call Pandaum 8, inside. China gov�t can see everything you do on these Powerbook, and send the data back to China by airport. The Pandaum chip cost most of the problem on Tibook, overheating, DVD drive, airport card, delivery time so don�t blame Apple. �As usual Blame China�. Steve Jobs knew Pandaum incident for many years, so he made the Tibook 1 inch to try to avoid any space for Pandaum chips. The metal housing to degrade the airprt performance. If your Tibook has any problem, chances are the Pandaum inside. Every American patriot should destroy the evil chip. You can�t burn them, it increase Power from Burn, the only way is to pour Chinese beer on them, Chinese beer ONLY.

FYI, my brother used to date commander�s daughter all over the globe. Of course he was looking for true love and not picking up chick.

Well, I do understand why many of you think China is wrong. Propaganda. Cold war is over, Uncle Sam need some �excuses� to spend money on his militarily toys. So, beside USSR, who is next enemy? China, of course. (India is next.) US always try to tell its people we are in danger, we need better weapons�Why most reviews said Mac sucks, because they are on PC side. Same theory. China is not as bad as you think. For those of you who think China is wrong, China is the one to blame, China is dumb-ass� Read more newspaper, read newspaper around the world. You will be amazed how much propaganda is going on.

[Matsu]

Apple John

Are you Chinese?
Or just a citizen of one of it's insignificant neihbours?

That or an angry middle-easterner?

[crazycylon]

It is all a game, you will never get the absolute truth from both parties. While it most likely true that the accident occurred in international air space, it is also likely that the US plane was in Chinese air space and as US plane detected the J-8 fighters they moved back into international air space. There is no reason for either side to apologize. The service men will be home before the end of this month. I reason I say this this is not a serious enough incident worth risking a war over.

------------------
As a man comes, so he departs.

[ctt1wbw]

I think it's amazing that somehow everyone here knows exactly how the US Military conducts intelligence gathering missions. Everyone knows it all, huh? No one here knows **** about any of this in my opinion.

[Daishi]

Originally posted by crazycylon:
it is also likely that the US plane was in Chinese air space

Probably not... That'd be like trying to sneak a barn around downtown. The Orion has a freakin' huge radar signature. It couldn't sneak into Chinese airspace, and i doubt that American military is so stupid as to risk an international incident by blatantly entering Chinese airspace when they could do their job about as well from a fair ways off the coast...

------------------
i close my mouth now and i scream

[gwrjr33]

... it is also likely that the US plane was in Chinese air space and as US plane detected the J-8 fighters they moved back into international air space.

No, that's not at all likely. The Chinese ambassador has even conceded that we were in international airspace. Check it out for yourself.

Yang (Chinese Ambassador Yang Jiechi) conceded the aircraft was in international airspace, but "in an area very close to the airspace of China."

[crazycylon]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the link.

------------------
As a man comes, so he departs.

[mikithecrackhead]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
So when do we start calling these people "hostages"?

they where hostages since day 1

btw the chinese have more english speaking chinese than our ( us ) population. I think we should reduce it a few via a couple A bombs that we hand over to taiwan

[mindwaves]

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
they where hostages since day 1

btw the chinese have more english speaking chinese than our ( us ) population. I think we should reduce it a few via a couple A bombs that we hand over to taiwan

Are you kidding????? Just because they have english speaking people and because a few government people are keeping some "prisoners," then you want to kill a few million people????

[OllO]

Originally posted by mikithecrackhead:
they where hostages since day 1

btw the chinese have more english speaking chinese than our ( us ) population. I think we should reduce it a few via a couple A bombs that we hand over to taiwan

those other yellow people in Taiwan happen to BE Chinese.

[AirSluf]

The story of the Chineese fighter pilot is almost plausible. Anyone here old enough to remember the XB-70 Valkeryie? It was a way cool HUGE Mach 3 bomber project that was cancelled in the late 60's (I think). The second prototype was destroyed in a mid-air collision with an F-104 Starfighter that had been flying formation on it for a picture. Moving air acts funny when it is squeezed between two objects. The F-104 with a legendary test pilot on board was pulled into the larger plane by the wake turbulence coming off the wings and vertical stabilizers (tails).

The story looks very much like the boneheaded F-8 pilot flew too close and caused an uncontrollable situation that literally sucked the planes together, helplessly. The P-3 is no where near as heavy as an XB-70 so it would probably get buffeted around pretty good, literally dropping that left wing on top of the F-8 being sucked upwards. Once he was too close, ther was nothing anyone could do.

[tonton]

Here's what happened.

The US plane drifts into or close to Chinese air space.
The Chinese fighters rush in to protect their air space, and the US plane backs off.
The Chinese planes want to make sure the US plane goes away, so they give it a little pressure to do so.
An inexperienced pilot, "Wong Wei" pronounce "Wong Way" (how's that for irony) gets a little too close to the US plane.
The US plane shifts course as a result of the pressure.
The Chinese plane gets stuck in an air draft that draws the plane toward the US plane, and the pilot loses control, clipping the plane's wing.
The Chinese pilot ejects safely (this was reported by the South China Morning Post, a VERY conservative and generally pro-Beijing newspaper).
The other Chinese pilot asks permission to shoot down the American plane and permission is refused (also reported by the SCMP).
The Chinese force the American plane down in Chinese territory. The American plane had attempted to change course (also SCMP).
The American crewmen begin destroying equipment and data.
The plane lands in Hainan, the crewmen are detained and the plane is confiscated.

Somewhere in there China sees this as an opportunity to gain political leverage, claim the pilot has died, and blame the US, saying the crash was "100% the fault of the American Plane". The fact that the American plane was a spy plane, and that it was the Chinese plane that went down gives China a moral advantage in the eyes of people who don't realise that this kind of spying happens everywhere, with every country, including China guilty of such.

[DBursey]

The American plane did not cross into Chinese airspace. The incident occurred approximately 90 km south of China's airspace, over international waters. This distance is a standard approach limit to sovereign airspace.

Such missions are routine, as are the interceptions of surveillance craft. What is not routine is the high risk, overly aggressive tactics of the Chinese fighter pilot, who has aptly demonstrated to the world the 'wong wei' of performing such interceptions.

The United States owes China no apology over this incident. Further, China is completely out of line with regard to diplomatic decorum in detaining the American crew.

[ctt1wbw]

Not to mention in violation of international law regarding boarding the plane and detaining the crew, who landed due to an emergency.

[maxelson]

...Except that, because of the "Infallibility" of the Chinese government (did I not read that, according to Maoist doctrine, the Chinese Communist party is infallible?) they cannot apologize. To do so would admit some fault or another. Sounds to me like we need Capt. Yossarian on the negotiation team.

------------------
Hat, Hat, baby.

[DBursey]

Exactly. And the crew will eventually be released of course. I have serious doubts about the release of the aircraft, and its treasure trove of high tech surveillance gear. Even if the crew managed to destroy some equipment inside the plane, the external transponders and other sophisticated RF hardware will be intact, and is years ahead of anything the Chinese (or the Russians) possess.

This is a real loss for the pentagon.

Of course, much of China's military technology that wasn't purchased from the old Soviet Union is likely based on espionage carried out against the US military industrial complex. The same holds true for Russia.

[This message has been edited by DBursey (edited 04-09-2001).]