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-Q- · Jun 17, 2002, 01:39 PM

And it *STILL* doesn't respect the dock!

And it changed my homepage to MSN.

Quartz text rendering is nice.

Still crashes at random times.

Unimpressed so far...

xi_hyperon · Jun 17, 2002, 01:47 PM

oops, forgot... insert obligatory remark about increased snappiness here. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

CharlesS · Jun 17, 2002, 01:49 PM

Well, it seems to be a full installer. It seems that my program is no longer the only means by which you can reinstall IE.

I was wondering how long that rather bizarre situation was going to last.

-Q- · Jun 17, 2002, 01:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CharlesS:
Well, it seems to be a full installer. It seems that my program is no longer the only means by which you can reinstall IE.

I was wondering how long that rather bizarre situation was going to last.<hr /></blockquote>I guess two months from the agreement expiration is long enough....

[ 06-17-2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: -Q- ]

Eug · Jun 17, 2002, 01:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CharlesS:
Well, it seems to be a full installer. It seems that my program is no longer the only means by which you can reinstall IE.

I was wondering how long that rather bizarre situation was going to last.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm... maybe they did that knowing that people are going to be uninstalling IE with all these other browsers available, only to find out too late they can't (easily) reinstall IE later.

P.S. Congrats on getting your BootCD app into the latest Macworld's recommended list.

[ 06-17-2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Eug ]

Hobbes · Jun 17, 2002, 01:57 PM

I know providing any feedback to M$ is like plssing in the wind, but after installing IE I did post this feedback on their Mactopia Feedback Page...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Two complaints with IE 5.2 for OS X...

1. There is NO REASON why this browser should have to quit all other applications. It is absolutely idiotic that IE requires this. If its a matter of not wanting other MS apps open while IE installs, perhaps due to shared libraries, then simply close those, not every single application running.

2. What gives you the right to reset my preferences and make IE the default browser? Please explain this. I searched the License agreement and didn't find anything that stated that by installing this product I was giving it the right to override my preferences. So please tell me exactly what does give you the right to take such liberties? <hr /></blockquote>Like I said, I know it won't do any good, but that just ticked me off. Other than the installation, this update is a welcome improvement IMHO.

[ 06-17-2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]

ratlater · Jun 17, 2002, 01:59 PM

A couple of things to point out:

1. Quartz rendering still looks like ass compared to OmniWeb. Brows over to slashdot or almost any other site and compare what you see to OmniWeb. OmniWeb is crips and clean and IE text looks like crap. It's the same with Chimera and Mozilla. What does Omni do differently to make everything look so nice?

2. That installer ****ed me off! What kind of OS X installer has to quit every frickin' application you are running. This is not OS 9, there is no reason to quit all my apps, it's rude.

3. There is still no AA on the app itself, the location bar and the bookmarks still look like ass. MS is lazy period. They turned on Quartz rendering and called it 5.2. When is everyone going to figure out that they don't care about Macs and start using a browser that does like OmniWeb, Chimera, or Mozilla?

-matt

King Kong · Jun 17, 2002, 02:00 PM

Force quit once a week? Consider yourself lucky, I have to about 5 times a day...minimum.

So odd. I have IE for weeks even months at a time (only quit when I have to reboot for a system update) with no problems...macnn or otherwise.

I don't notice any speed improvement in 5.2, but as I have fast internet things are fairly zippy anyway. I wonder if the improvements are more visible on slow dialup connections...

btw I do notice Mozilla's speed over IE 5's and I love tabbed browsing... once the program gets a bit more finished I'll probably switch... but it's still a bit clunky.

Eug · Jun 17, 2002, 02:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2. That installer ****ed me off! What kind of OS X installer has to quit every frickin' application you are running. This is not OS 9, there is no reason to quit all my apps, it's rude.<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps, but I do this anyway whenever I install major software, since it's the safest way to install IMO. Maybe it's a bit paranoid, but I don't see what the big deal is.

wingdo · Jun 17, 2002, 02:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by King Kong:
Force quit once a week? Consider yourself lucky, I have to about 5 times a day...minimum.

So odd. I have IE for weeks even months at a time (only quit when I have to reboot for a system update) with no problems...macnn or otherwise.
<hr /></blockquote>Must be nice. I use IE for everything except my visits to macnn. For this I use Omni as IE hoses up all the freaking time.

tomas1119 · Jun 17, 2002, 02:13 PM

I've been using the latest IE for about an hour and it looks great and works fine for me.

Those who don't seem to like this free IE browser should not complain and just use something else.

I'm happy with it. It "ain't perfect, but it works for me, and the price is right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Bruce O'Neal · Jun 17, 2002, 02:15 PM

it seems fast. faster? i am not sure about that. also, it looks great and you can change the skins (in this case only colors) pretty easily.

all in all ... i like it, but it still doesn't have features that netscape 7 does. i LOVE the password feature of 7. i am not sure why IE has never really done this.

also, i think the tabbed screens in N7 are a killer app.

i am pretty much browser agnostic and do not care which browser i use. some work better for some things, other applications for other things.

CaseCom · Jun 17, 2002, 02:18 PM

Doesn't seem faster to me.

And what's the point of changing the home page to MSN.com? Irritating.

KellyHogan · Jun 17, 2002, 02:23 PM

Rendering is a bit faster. Perhaps there is better security, how do I tell. I have dual firewalls anyway. Otherwise it is still the most compatible browser out there.

ducasi · Jun 17, 2002, 02:24 PM

I have another problem with the installer, besides that it wants to quit all your applications (like, not even the system updates do that, and they're usually replacing the kernel...) and that's code that seems to be "phoning home" to mindvision.

If you dowloaded the .dmg version, try this in a terminal window (it shows you embedded strings from the installer)...

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">% cd /Volumes/Internet\ Explorer\ 5.2\ Installer/Install\ Internet\ Explorer.app/
% strings - Contents/MacOS/Install\ Internet\ Explorer | less +/Netscape
</pre><hr /></blockquote>you'll get a screen that might look like this... (type "q" to quit)

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> : :Netscape
:Netscape Preferencesuser_pref("network.proxy.
$type
$http
)http_port
:Netscape Users:User Profiles
:Netscape Preferences
:Netscape Users:ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqr stuvwxyz0123456789+/=
Internet Preferences^LUseHTTPProxy
HTTPProxyHost^LFTPProxyUser
FTPProxyPassword
http://http://
@%0D%0A
%POST
+ HTTP/1.0
&Host:
Proxy-Authorization: Basic
Cookie:
1User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Macintosh)
1Content-type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
0Referer: http://
0Content-Length:
www.mindvision.com
/RegForm/SendEMailData.asp
e%from=
$&to=
)&subject=
)&message=
FIRST-CLASS MAIL PERMIT NO.
</pre><hr /></blockquote>This looks to me that MindVision's installer is connecting to their web server to pass some sort of (email-type) message either to mindvision, or maybe ultimately to microsoft.

Anybody know anything about Installer VISE, and what it's doing?

Is Installer VISE spyware?

Anybody have a list of what files it installs?

Enquiring minds...

Colonel Panic · Jun 17, 2002, 02:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:
A couple of things to point out:

1. Quartz rendering still looks like ass compared to OmniWeb. Brows over to slashdot or almost any other site and compare what you see to OmniWeb. OmniWeb is crips and clean and IE text looks like crap. It's the same with Chimera and Mozilla. What does Omni do differently to make everything look so nice?

...

-matt<hr /></blockquote>Wow - OmniWeb (cocoa) does look better than IE and Mozilla (carbon). I hadn't noticed the difference until now. IE w/quartz is still leaps and bounds better than IE w/o quartz, but Omni still is the prettiest....

The update left my default browser as Mozilla, don't know why it changed some other folks' default. Agreed that needing to quit other apps sucks, especially since 5.2 is X only.

While this is a good update, Mac browsers are still far behind browsing speed of Windows IE. Any hope for IE 6 & Jag? or anything else and Jag? Chimera, perhaps? Mozilla?

KaptainKaya · Jun 17, 2002, 02:42 PM

Yes, does anyone know what files this installer places on the HD? You would think that you could just drag and drop IE off disk image and just place it on the HD like in 9.x.

solitere · Jun 17, 2002, 02:47 PM

I don�t know if I �m the only one with this problem in browsers! � Java applets misbehave or don�t work in OS X with any browser!

Developer · Jun 17, 2002, 02:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hobbes:
2. What gives you the right to reset my preferences and make IE the default browser? Please explain this. I searched the License agreement and didn't find anything that stated that by installing this product I was giving it the right to override my preferences. So please tell me exactly what does give you the right to take such liberties? <hr /></blockquote>It didn't do that for me. That often happens when I install a new OmniWeb version, but it's Apple's bug, not Microsoft's.

As for changing the start page to msn: I consider this a service. I wouldn't have found this excellent site myself.

useEvil · Jun 17, 2002, 02:53 PM

Why is it that I have to quit all my applications to install IE? Its a bit passe with OSX, don't you think? I guess I'll have to wait till the next time I reboot.

TheMosco · Jun 17, 2002, 03:34 PM

Is it really that big a deal that you have to quit your applications to install? if they are doing something why can't some of you just wait until they are done to install.

And it is not so bad here but at vt people giving it one star because it changes our defualt homeapge. is that really that bad? its not like you can't change it.

My installation didn't change my internet preferences to MS.

Go to <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/</a> in mozilla or omniweb. Scroll down the page and see how they mess up the navbar. IE displays it fine.

xi_hyperon · Jun 17, 2002, 03:42 PM

I'm getting occasional IE crashes after updating to 5.2. Anyone else?

KaptainKaya · Jun 17, 2002, 03:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TheMosco:
Is it really that big a deal that you have to quit your applications to install? if they are doing something why can't some of you just wait until they are done to install.

And it is not so bad here but at vt people giving it one star because it changes our defualt homeapge. is that really that bad? its not like you can't change it.

My installation didn't change my internet preferences to MS.

Go to <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/</a> in mozilla or omniweb. Scroll down the page and see how they mess up the navbar. IE displays it fine.<hr /></blockquote>In some cases, yes its bad to quit all apps to install a program. Running Photoshop and ImageReady all day to get actual work done is one example. I can understand if this was an OS update, but its not.

cpac · Jun 17, 2002, 03:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
As for changing the start page to msn: I consider this a service. I wouldn't have found this excellent site myself.<hr /></blockquote>Congratulations! You will shortly be contacted by M$'s legal department to testify how having M$ make decisions like what your homepage should be, or which is your default browser for you is really a "service" and not illegal monopolistic behavior.

I, for one, feel confident in my choice of a homepage and am quite certain that MSN's advertising would have gotten me to visit the site if I thought it would be one I'd enjoy or use.

The Sheik · Jun 17, 2002, 03:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wevah:
I'm rather disappointed...still no Array.pop()/Array.push()/etc.
<hr /></blockquote>So am I.

I came across this bug back when IE X was still in beta. It couldn't understand why my JavaScript worked perfectly in OmniWeb (not known for its JavaScript prowess) and not in IE.

How hard could it be to implement simple array manipulation? They've got a DOM module and XML parser working fine for ****s sake!!

Eug · Jun 17, 2002, 04:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In some cases, yes its bad to quit all apps to install a program. Running Photoshop and ImageReady all day to get actual work done is one example.<hr /></blockquote>If your few minutes were that important, and the work was that critical, you wouldn't be upgrading Internet Explorer to get font smoothing at that time.

Indeed, I think it's a bad idea to install software (from anyone) while in the middle of cranking out unsaved work. It's much worse to lose 20 minutes of work because the installer hung the system than it is to simply to save the work and quit the app for a few minutes.

[ 06-17-2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Eug ]

dbergstrom · Jun 17, 2002, 04:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
Otherwise it is still the most compatible browser out there.<hr /></blockquote>That's a little bit like saying the old Apple ADB mouse was the most compatable mouse around. It was compatable as long as you were using a computer with ADB. IE is the most compatable as long as you frequent sites designed with Microsnarfs tools and "standards" (is this akin to frequenting a brothel?). I'd prefer a browser that respects open standards, even at the cost of making sites that use Microsnarf's "standards" look like crap.

funkboy · Jun 17, 2002, 04:52 PM

Here's some informal testing:
IE 5.1: (which must no longer be on my hard drive...)
8.58 for MacCentral.macworld.com
14.62 for cnn.com
8.12 for imdb.com
7.21 for msn.com
7.70 for mosr
8.21 for forums.macnn.com
13.67 for fark.com
4.98 for karlbecker.com
3.10 for index2.shtml
3.21 for tigers-eye.com
1.77 for tiger's eye pub link
2.50 for tiger's eye pub pictures

IE 5.2:
10.89 for maccentral.macworld.com
14.31 for cnn.com
9.40 for imdb.com
6.40 for msn.com
5.77 for mosr
8.78 for forums.macnn.com
13.43 for fark.com
5.22 for karlbecker.com
3.73 for index2.shtml
2.90 for tigers-eye.com
1.70 for tiger's eye pub link
2.26 for tiger's eye pub pictures

Overall it seems to not be too much snappier; slower, in fact, for some places.

Eug · Jun 17, 2002, 05:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by funkboy:
Here's some informal testing:
IE 5.1: (which must no longer be on my hard drive...)
8.58 for MacCentral.macworld.com
14.62 for cnn.com
8.12 for imdb.com
7.21 for msn.com
7.70 for mosr
8.21 for forums.macnn.com
13.67 for fark.com
4.98 for karlbecker.com
3.10 for index2.shtml
3.21 for tigers-eye.com
1.77 for tiger's eye pub link
2.50 for tiger's eye pub pictures

IE 5.2:
10.89 for maccentral.macworld.com
14.31 for cnn.com
9.40 for imdb.com
6.40 for msn.com
5.77 for mosr
8.78 for forums.macnn.com
13.43 for fark.com
5.22 for karlbecker.com
3.73 for index2.shtml
2.90 for tigers-eye.com
1.70 for tiger's eye pub link
2.26 for tiger's eye pub pictures

Overall it seems to not be too much snappier; slower, in fact, for some places.<hr /></blockquote>This doesn't really tell you anything either way, except to say the speeds are not hugely different. By the way, how are you timing them? Just wondering.

Does anyone have a link to some super complex web pages that we can save to our hard drives and then test them off the HD?

[ 06-17-2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Eug ]

AliP · Jun 17, 2002, 05:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tinrib:
wow this update rocks. This seriously beats the PANTS off mozilla!!! I thought I would never use IE again. It just reclaimed the top spot in my book. LOVE the new 'hidden features'

<hr /></blockquote>Excuse my stupitidty but what are the hidden features?
KRO
Ali P

goatnet · Jun 17, 2002, 05:35 PM

I'm incredibly stupid. I just found out about the scrapbook feature... Damn, I really like it. <img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

TheMosco · Jun 17, 2002, 05:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'd prefer a browser that respects open standards, even at the cost of making sites that use Microsnarf's "standards" look like crap.<hr /></blockquote>so if you go to <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/</a> in IE, it displays the navbar correctly. Most other others dont. Myabe IE is more complient then you think.

funkboy · Jun 17, 2002, 05:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Eug:
This doesn't really tell you anything either way, except to say the speeds are not hugely different. By the way, how are you timing them? Just wondering.<hr /></blockquote>Right, the speeds are not producing a huge speed increase. That's all

I'm timing them by starting the watch when I hit return and stopping when it says "Internet Zone" in the bottom left so that the entire page has loaded (I realize many of those sites are dynamically generated, but like I said, it's informal!

)

Mactoid · Jun 17, 2002, 05:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ducasi:
I have another problem with the installer, besides that it wants to quit all your applications (like, not even the system updates do that, and they're usually replacing the kernel...) and that's code that seems to be "phoning home" to mindvision.
...
This looks to me that MindVision's installer is connecting to their web server to pass some sort of (email-type) message either to mindvision, or maybe ultimately to microsoft.

Anybody know anything about Installer VISE, and what it's doing?

Is Installer VISE spyware?

Anybody have a list of what files it installs?

Enquiring minds...<hr /></blockquote>Looks clean to me. There were no suspicious TCP connections during my install (that is there were no connections to any MS, mindvision, or other unaccounted for domains). But keep up the good work anyway! I wouldn't have bothered to check if you hadn't mentioned it. It pays to be wary.

Another thing I didn't like about the installer was how it didn't allow you to choose where to install to. They are very insistent about putting IE directly in /Applications. Also, I was ****ed off about having to close everything while installing. It is most defiantly rude, and there is absolutely no legitimate reason for doing it. It's just a PITA. However, at least it didn't try and make me reboot like the iTunes installer.

Senior Member · Jun 17, 2002, 05:58 PM

Eh, it's ok. I have no complaints. It reset my homepage, but who gives a rat's a$$. In the grand scheme of human suffering, who cares if an installer resets your homepage and quits apps? Its a little faster. I have yet to see how much more stable, as it's only been 5 minutes.

Jerommeke · Jun 17, 2002, 06:20 PM

I no longer lose my prefs!!!

Damn, that was a long wait

tobster · Jun 17, 2002, 06:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Eug:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />In some cases, yes its bad to quit all apps to install a program. Running Photoshop and ImageReady all day to get actual work done is one example.<hr /></blockquote>If your few minutes were that important, and the work was that critical, you wouldn't be upgrading Internet Explorer to get font smoothing at that time.

Indeed, I think it's a bad idea to install software (from anyone) while in the middle of cranking out unsaved work. It's much worse to lose 20 minutes of work because the installer hung the system than it is to simply to save the work and quit the app for a few minutes.<hr /></blockquote>Well, thats one of the big advantages of OS X. Being able to work in other programs while another carries out a task. That as well as the fact that a program isn't likely to hang the system no more. Not like in OS 9. You realized this I guess.

If I'm offered the possibility in most installers to work while it installs I don't find it unreasonable to expect the same from a big company like M$. Maybe I've been fooled. Programs aren't made to serve the end user are they?

- tobs

talisker · Jun 17, 2002, 07:50 PM

What a load of whinging sods. If you dont want to quit all your programs, or you dont want to have the 10 second job of changing your homepage, then dont install the upgrade. If your time is that valuable then how can you afford the time to come on here and whine about it? Now shut it.

Back up 15 and punt · Jun 17, 2002, 08:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
I'm getting occasional IE crashes after updating to 5.2. Anyone else?<hr /></blockquote>IE has crashed on me at one particular web site since the beginning. When I tried to call MS they wanted to charge $35.00 for their problem. My response, I won't use your product if you want to charge me for your problem.

I represent HP and I need to go to <a href="http://www.hpinfolab.com" target="_blank">www.hpinfolab.com</a> to complete training. IE for OS 9 never had a problem and for the most part none of the other browser seem to have a problem with it either. Just IE 5.2 for OS X. IE allows me to log on to the web site but as soon as I try to go to the training page it dies. I have tried this on several machines with the same results.

Superchicken · Jun 17, 2002, 08:47 PM

My big complaint. Anyone else think these colours are BOGUS!?
You'd think if they're gona wait soooo freakin long to update for OS X, the least they could do is give us accurate browser colours! It's like they just took a random picture of an iMac, and used the eye dropper tool!

Snow is not WHITE, it's PURPLE! Oh and did 5.1 have snow?

Blueberry still looks nothing LIKE my iMac's case!
Aqua is STILL off, I mean even fi you've got terrible colour accuracy, at LEAST get aqua right! There's a little apple RIGHTIN THE CORNER OF YER FREAKING SCREEN YOUR IDIOTS! gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Well acctually they're prolly coding on PCs... but STILL!

This thing is... it's from microsoft... haha right, I forgot, it's from M$.. it didn't crash within five minutes of start up... this is a good update <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Anyone else notice apple.com/macosx doesn't have anything on the new update?
Me thinks Jaguar has a new friend for Mail <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

ratlater · Jun 17, 2002, 09:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by talisker:
What a load of whinging sods. If you dont want to quit all your programs, or you dont want to have the 10 second job of changing your homepage, then dont install the upgrade. If your time is that valuable then how can you afford the time to come on here and whine about it? Now shut it.<hr /></blockquote>You are entirely missing the point of the argument. It's not the minute I lose restarting my apps and changing prefs, it's the fact that M$ is a lazy company that makes inferior products, and cares nothing for end user experience. They do NOT need to quit every application, doing so can only be explained by laziness on their part.

Changing the prefs on the other hand is a problem beyond just being inferior programmers. It's rude and obnoxious. No program that is an update should change the prefs I've already made. If I wanted msn.com to be my homepage I would have set it that way. Fact is I don't like the site and don't want to visit it.

This is ust another example of M$'s heavy handed big brother tactics and people like you are the reason they get away with it. We as consumers should care that a company uses an inferior installer and invades our privacy. We only have power in our voices and wallets, and if we sit back and eat the crap M$ feeds us then things will never change for the better.

I won't "shut it" talisker, but apparently you already have.

-matt

Developer · Jun 17, 2002, 09:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:

It's not the minute I lose restarting my apps and changing prefs, it's the fact that M$ is a lazy company that makes inferior products, and cares nothing for end user experience. They do NOT need to quit every application, doing so can only be explained by laziness on their part.

Changing the prefs on the other hand is a problem beyond just being inferior programmers. It's rude and obnoxious. No program that is an update should change the prefs I've already made. If I wanted msn.com to be my homepage I would have set it that way. Fact is I don't like the site and don't want to visit it.

This is ust another example of M$'s heavy handed big brother tactics and people like you are the reason they get away with it. We as consumers should care that a company uses an inferior installer and invades our privacy. We only have power in our voices and wallets, and if we sit back and eat the crap M$ feeds us then things will never change for the better.

I won't "shut it" talisker, but apparently you already have.<hr /></blockquote>OK, let's assume for a minute (and it's not an unreasonable assumption) that it could have bad side affects if Internet Explorer is running while a new version is installed on top of it. What do you think is the probability that people who just have downloaded the update are still running Internet Explorer when they start the updater?
Maybe it has side effects with other running applications too. Maybe Installer VISE doesn't have an option to quit IE only. Who knows?
But it's always easy to claim Microsoft is lazy without knowing the facts.

As for the start page: A company makes you a gift and promotes its own stuff with it. What's the problem? If you don't like it you just change it back (or just don't update. Versiontracker mentioned it).

tobster · Jun 17, 2002, 09:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:
You are entirely missing the point of the argument. It's not the minute I lose restarting my apps and changing prefs, it's the fact that M$ is a lazy company that makes inferior products, and cares nothing for end user experience...

(cut out for shortening)

I won't "shut it" talisker, but apparently you already have.

-matt<hr /></blockquote>Thank you. If only more of us would scream when being stepped on by BIG shoes. Then possibly, possibly, we might be heard.

- tobs

talisker · Jun 17, 2002, 09:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratlater:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by talisker:
What a load of whinging sods. If you dont want to quit all your programs, or you dont want to have the 10 second job of changing your homepage, then dont install the upgrade. If your time is that valuable then how can you afford the time to come on here and whine about it? Now shut it.<hr /></blockquote>You are entirely missing the point of the argument. It's not the minute I lose restarting my apps and changing prefs, it's the fact that M$ is a lazy company that makes inferior products, and cares nothing for end user experience. They do NOT need to quit every application, doing so can only be explained by laziness on their part.

Changing the prefs on the other hand is a problem beyond just being inferior programmers. It's rude and obnoxious. No program that is an update should change the prefs I've already made. If I wanted msn.com to be my homepage I would have set it that way. Fact is I don't like the site and don't want to visit it.

This is ust another example of M$'s heavy handed big brother tactics and people like you are the reason they get away with it. We as consumers should care that a company uses an inferior installer and invades our privacy. We only have power in our voices and wallets, and if we sit back and eat the crap M$ feeds us then things will never change for the better.

I won't "shut it" talisker, but apparently you already have.

-matt<hr /></blockquote>This is a product being distributed at no charge by a commercial organisation. If you feel the installer is of poor quality then exercise your rights and don't use it. You obviously feel very strongly about this (fair enough) but in the end you went ahead and installed it anyway. I utterly fail to see how setting MSN as the home page invades your privacy. Causes you very mild inconvenience yes, but does not disclose any personal information about you to Microsoft or anyone else. Therefore - privacy not invaded. I imagine MS deliberately changed the homepage, rather than because they were lazy, as MSN is their site which advertises and links to MS services and products which generate revenue for them. As they are after all in this to generate returns then this seems entirely logical. Apologies for the "shut it" line, but really folks, lighten up!

tobster · Jun 17, 2002, 09:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
OK, let's assume for a minute (and it's not an unreasonable assumption) that it could have bad side affects if Internet Explorer is running while a new version is installed on top of it. What do you think is the probability that people who just have downloaded the update are still running Internet Explorer when they start the updater?
Maybe it has side effects with other running applications too. Maybe Installer VISE doesn't have an option to quit IE only. Who knows?
But it's always easy to claim Microsoft is lazy without knowing the facts.

As for the start page: A company makes you a gift and promotes its own stuff with it. What's the problem? If you don't like it you just change it back (or just don't update. Versiontracker mentioned it).<hr /></blockquote>I can live with the fact that they forced us to use MSN as a start page, after all, it is their gift to us. And I also, for the time being, will give them the doubt about quitting all apps. VISE however, does allow for one by one app to be quit. I can't imagine any reason why IE would upgrade components of Photoshop. Isn't OS X designed in such a way that the system is *almost* totally independent of the programs (sorry if some of my English is bad in this sentence :S).

What did make me more mad than the change of my start page (from none btw.) was the fact that my default browser had changed to IE instead of OmniWeb. Is it not fair of me to say that is invasion to my choice of how I behave MY computer experience? I realize that it only takes a few seconds to fix, but should I really have to do this? Maybe I am just being overly critical. If so, then take no notice of me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

- tobs

Developer · Jun 17, 2002, 09:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tobster:

What did make me more mad than the change of my start page (from none btw.) was the fact that my default browser had changed to IE instead of OmniWeb. Is it not fair of me to say that is invasion to my choice of how I behave MY computer experience? I realize that it only takes a few seconds to fix, but should I really have to do this? Maybe I am just being overly critical.<hr /></blockquote>This is Apple's bug, not Microsoft's. It happens very often - but not always - when I update OmniWeb (switches back to default).

It didn't happen to me when I did the IE 5.2 update.

MrBS · Jun 17, 2002, 09:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tobster:

What did make me more mad than the change of my start page (from none btw.) was the fact that my default browser had changed to IE instead of OmniWeb. Is it not fair of me to say that is invasion to my choice of how I behave MY computer experience? I realize that it only takes a few seconds to fix, but should I really have to do this? Maybe I am just being overly critical. If so, then take no notice of me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

- tobs<hr /></blockquote>No, you're not being overly critical. That is very bad.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
This is Apple's bug, not Microsoft's. It happens very often - but not always - when I update OmniWeb (switches back to default).

It didn't happen to me when I did the IE 5.2 update.<hr /></blockquote>It doesn't reset it, when you update OW it breaks the link, as the original file is gone. Then it goes to default. If you don't overwrite the browser that is selected it shouldn't go to default.

I really doubt this is an unintentional by-product of the install. Who'd have thought that Microsoft would make a facist piece of software that doesn't respect the user's preferences?
~BS

ratlater · Jun 17, 2002, 10:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by talisker:
This is a product being distributed at no charge by a commercial organisation. If you feel the installer is of poor quality then exercise your rights and don't use it. You obviously feel very strongly about this (fair enough) but in the end you went ahead and installed it anyway.<hr /></blockquote>I installed it because I am trying to keep an open mind about M$ products. I prefer OmniWeb, but if the new IE turned out to be greatly improved I could see myself switching. Unfortunately the new IE is not much different than the old so I won't be using it and all the installer did was give me a negative impression of the app from the start. It's bad business to annoy your customers before they even get to use your product.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I utterly fail to see how setting MSN as the home page invades your privacy. Causes you very mild inconvenience yes, but does not disclose any personal information about you to Microsoft or anyone else. Therefore - privacy not invaded. I imagine MS deliberately changed the homepage, rather than because they were lazy, as MSN is their site which advertises and links to MS services and products which generate revenue for them. As they are after all in this to generate returns then this seems entirely logical.<hr /></blockquote>It's not a terrible invasion of privacy, but it is an invasion of privacy IMO. If you got new tires put on your car and the people at the shop changed all of the presets for your radio stations to stations they advertise on, you'd probably be pretty annoyed. Basically that's what happened here. I installed an upgrade, like new tires, and when they were servicing my computer they saw fit to advertise for themselves by changing my home page.

I was most annoyed by my system prefs being reset to IE as the default browser though. I've gone through a lot of pain to get OmniWeb to be default and having that changed is rude, and outside of M$'s jurisdiction on my comp as far as I'm concerned.

Also I question the logic of changing people's homepages. Yes you get more people to visity your site, so in that sense it is good. But at the same time you anger a number of people by forcing them to the site which is bad. Most people don't like to be tricked or forced into anything, so this tactic will make people wary of your company.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Apologies for the "shut it" line, but really folks, lighten up!<hr /></blockquote>Thanks. I realize this isn't that big of deal. The real problem is this isn't a first offense for Microsoft. This is just another example of their ongoing anti-consumer behavior. They are good at making money, but terrible at making good products.

-matt

Developer · Jun 17, 2002, 10:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MrBS:

I really doubt this is an unintentional by-product of the install. Who'd have thought that Microsoft would make a facist piece of software that doesn't respect the user's preferences?
~BS<hr /></blockquote>1) It didn't happen (to everybody) with the IE 5.2 install
2) I wasn't aware the Microsoft wrote LaunchServices (or whatever part of the OS is responsible for remembering the default browser)
3) This thread reached its end of life astonishingly fast; time to close

Mactoid · Jun 17, 2002, 10:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
OK, let's assume for a minute (and it's not an unreasonable assumption) that it could have bad side affects if Internet Explorer is running while a new version is installed on top of it. What do you think is the probability that people who just have downloaded the update are still running Internet Explorer when they start the updater?
Maybe it has side effects with other running applications too....<hr /></blockquote>Ok, let us assume for a moment that the IE installer can have bad side affects if IE or some other app is running.

Hmm, what do you know, that changes nothing. The installer or the application still has some serious problem. No web browser should have these sorts of side affects for any reason that I can think of. If anyone can give me at least one valid reason why I am wrong I would love to hear it.

Also note that the Finder, the Dock, all the menu and dock items, as well as over a dozen background daemons were not shut down during the install and they apparently did it no harm.

BTW talisker, I do not use IE. However, how am I to justify preferring some other browser if I do not at least try the updated IE?