[macintologist]

For any of you using Mactracker, or check out Apple - Support - Computer and Server Support , you can see that the oldest Mac that is considered "Vintage" is the iMac bondi blue from August '98 and the latest Mac considered "Obsolete" is the beige G3. How long will it take for ALL G3s include the B&Ws and iBooks to be considered completely obsolete? Will it take the release of Leopard requiring a G4? I already consider any non-Firewire Mac to be completely obsolete but that's just me.

[nonhuman]

I assume when they can't (technically) run the latest version of OS X.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

I assume when they can't (technically) run the latest version of OS X.

True, Beige g3's need 3rd party software in order to install OS X. I wonder if Leopard will block out more Macs.

[mindwaves]

It has been revived in its latest incarnation in the Wii.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

It has been revived in its latest incarnation in the Wii.

Heh I didn't think of that. The Wii processor is basically a speedbump of the Gamecube G3 processor.

[Atomic Rooster]

Well since Mac OSX comes on a DVD, technically any Mac with a built in CD player is obsolete. You can send for CD install discs but hey.

[imitchellg5]

I think it will be at least 2 years before all G3s are obsolete. There are plenty of iBook G3s and G3 Blue and Whites still floating around dutifully performing exciting tasks. My school still uses a G3 Blue and White ( albeit upgraded to 1.1 GHz G3 with 1 Gb of RAM and two speedy HDs).

[wataru]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Well since Mac OSX comes on a DVD, technically any Mac with a built in CD player is obsolete. You can send for CD install discs but hey.

No, it's the exact opposite of that. Technically they're not obsolete because you can order CDs.

[Buckaroo]

Gads, what's the rush. Alright, alright, I now declare the G3's obsolete.

Are you happy now. Take you G3 and put it in the trash, and buy a G5 ASAP.

[JazzCatDRP]

I'm running Tiger on a 333 Lombard G3 powerbook. It required me to install the OS on the drive, and then install the drive in the laptop, but hey it runs, and not too shabbily either.

[centerchannel68]

I think they're obsolete when you can't use them for much. I can use my original iMac for a lot of things, but since I want to run super stable OSX, it severely limits what I can do...but it still does it (whatever it still can do) very well.

I doubt I'll be getting rid of it anytime soon.

[Eug]

I'd suspect that official G3 support could be dead with OS X 10.6 in 2009. That's 6 years after the last G3 Mac was released.

Effectively though, I consider the G3s obsolete already for some people. Why? Cuz of Apple's software. A lot of it requires a G4. Even playing back basic H.264 QuickTime trailers is pretty much impossible on a G3.

[centerchannel68]

What really pisses me off is that my G3 iMac could play videos just fine in OS9, and it could play 3d accelerated games FINE in OS9, but in OSX they killed the drivers for it. So the hardware isn't what's making it obsolete, it's the OS.

[macintologist]

Ah you're talking about the Voodoo2? Yea I also have that for my bondi blue iMac and it kicks ass!! Too bad Nvidia never released OS X drivers.

[centerchannel68]

Well, yeah, that and the RAGE IIC, or the Rage Pro, the built in videocards. They weren't much, but they could play Quake 1 fairly well. With OSX, it can only run everything in software mode, and it can't even really play videos, as OSX/quicktime f*cked all that up also. Funky colors, and about 1 frame per 2 seconds. Thanks apple.

[macintologist]

You actually couldn't play any 3d games with the Rage II unless you upgraded the vram from 2mb to 6mb, even then it was crap slow. I always played the Quake demo in software rendering. The only 3d accelerated game I played with the Rage II was Myth II in 640x480 @10fps which worked fine IMO. Then I got the Gamewizard and all changed...

[Big Mac]

I'd say you'll see technical obsolescence with the release of Leopard, which apparently eliminates G3 support. Practical obsolescence will vary though, depending on the user and his or her purposes.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'd say you'll see technical obsolescence with the release of Leopard, which apparently eliminates G3 support. Practical obsolescence will vary though, depending on the user and his or her purposes.

Ah yes, you're right. The initial statements from Apple about Leopard were that it would run on machines from the "G3 to Xeon", but apparently that was wrong, and was subsequently taken out. Checking the sites it looks like a G4 is mandatory for the developer previews. So I guess my 2009 prediction is off by 2 years.

I guess that makes sense though, cuz like I said so much software these days requires the G4 anyway.

Time to sell your G3s people. (I sold mine years ago, because my G3 600 was damn slow for my tastes.)

[mitchell_pgh]

IMHO, once you can't run the current OS, you are using an obsolete computer. Apple seems to do a good job phasing computers out slowly. They give you ~5 years before you need to start hacking them to get them to work with the current OS.

Just out of curiosity, how old of a computer can Vista run on? I'm guessing ~4 years old?

[Eug]

When Leopard launches, I suspect a lot of G3 owners are gonna be pissed with that Get-a-Mac commercial that claims that OS X upgrades are painless.

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

IMHO, once you can't run the current OS, you are using an obsolete computer. Apple seems to do a good job phasing computers out slowly. They give you ~5 years before you need to start hacking them to get them to work with the current OS.

Just out of curiosity, how old of a computer can Vista run on? I'm guessing ~4 years old?

800 MHz CPU
DirectX 9 GPU - nVidia 5200, GMA 900, AMD Radeon 9500, AMD Xpress 200

So something like 2002. Fortunately for Windows users, many PCs can be upgraded.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Well, yeah, that and the RAGE IIC, or the Rage Pro, the built in videocards. They weren't much, but they could play Quake 1 fairly well. With OSX, it can only run everything in software mode, and it can't even really play videos, as OSX/quicktime f*cked all that up also. Funky colors, and about 1 frame per 2 seconds. Thanks apple.

I would um, get a new iMac. Preferably one with at least a Rage 128.

[AppleOptionFour]

Isnt there a stripped down Ubuntu one might use for this?

Would be a nice small scale web server.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I would um, get a new iMac. Preferably one with at least a Rage 128.

At this point, I wouldn't get anything less than a 1 GHz G4 eMac with Radeon bare minimum. However, one of those will cost you $400.

I think the low cost sweet spot is a refurb 1.83 GHz Core Duo 17" iMac with GMA 950 - $799, or else the next step up with Core 2 Duo, Airport Extreme, and iSight for $849. Yeah, it costs twice as much as a used eMac 1 GHz, but it comes with a full warranty, and it's a bazillion times better in just about every way.

[the_glassman]

You could probably install Leopard on a G3 with firewire by using Firewire Target Disc mode. This is how I've gotten around not having a DVD drive in some of my older Macs.
Eug, I agree that the 17" refurb is a much better deal than the eMac.

[analogika]

Apple's definition of "obsolete" is "no longer supported".

All G3s are obsolete. Apple will no longer supply spare parts for these machines.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

You actually couldn't play any 3d games with the Rage II unless you upgraded the vram from 2mb to 6mb, even then it was crap slow. I always played the Quake demo in software rendering. The only 3d accelerated game I played with the Rage II was Myth II in 640x480 @10fps which worked fine IMO. Then I got the Gamewizard and all changed...

The rage IIC and Rage Pro both worked for unreal tournament. Also, both cards, if supported, would allow this machine to play video. But nope.

And yeah, the gamewizard was awesome. Too bad nobody ever made OSX drivers, that thing would still scream today, on certain games.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I would um, get a new iMac. Preferably one with at least a Rage 128.

You obviously don't know about my history with that machine, and ignored the fact it's just a backup/file server. I was the first person to swap daughtercards, the first person to create a hybrid 333cpu on a rev a mobo with a gamewizard, the first person to try 512 sticks of ram, the first person with an iMac that lit up, bla bla bla bla. I'll never get rid of it. It's the most modified 1st gen iMac in the world, that still has iMac guts.

[macintologist]

Huh?? I thought you put in one of those harmoni things??

[centerchannel68]

I did. After all that mentioned above. I went through two 333mhz daughtercards, switched from aluminum core g3 to copper for better cooling.

[imitchellg5]

Didn't the later G3 cards have a copper core ( 500 MHz+)

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Didn't the later G3 cards have a copper core ( 500 MHz+)

The copper process was IBM's, and they took over G3 production after 450MHz~.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

You obviously don't know about my history with that machine, and ignored the fact it's just a backup/file server.

You commented on how Apple never released drivers for the GPU, so I responded with a solution for getting an OS X friendly GPU. If you're just using it as a backup server, GPU driver problems aren't really a problem.

Besides, that's why the iMac shipped with OS 9. If you need the older hardware to run, boot into 9. Even when OS X came along those iMacs were getting long in the tooth.

[asagai]

I have an 400Mhz B&W and there is nothing wrong with that machine. It has ran every version of OS X, has DVD, FireWire, USB...Thee is nothing wrong with this machine.

I posted A WHILE BACK, how when Apple stated that the iCam would not work with machine that were below 600Mhz, that it actually does work WITHOUT A FLAW OR PERFORMANCE HIT...I also showed how to do so.

Apple has been so ANTI-TECHNOLOGY, and pro stock returns that it is making me vommit. Again, I am a Mac fan but Apple biz model is becoming very anti-technolgy. They seem to simply desire people to purchase a new machine every 2 years. To all you older people that have used Macs for some time, think about the way they were made...not like to cheap an flimsy way thaey are today. I have a BRAND NEW black MacBook. I have replaced this 3 times!! The "paint" coating was peeling, bad pixels, bad speaker, and the case began to open. I love this machine...but it is NOT made to last...not mor than 2yrs!!

I am beginning to desire an Apple competitor. Apple has no competition and they are making some BAD moves.

Best Regards,
-Asagai

[goMac]

Originally Posted by asagai 

I have an 400Mhz B&W and there is nothing wrong with that machine. It has ran every version of OS X, has DVD, FireWire, USB...Thee is nothing wrong with this machine.

I posted A WHILE BACK, how when Apple stated that the iCam would not work with machine that were below 600Mhz, that it actually does work WITHOUT A FLAW OR PERFORMANCE HIT...I also showed how to do so.

Apple has been so ANTI-TECHNOLOGY, and pro stock returns that it is making me vommit. Again, I am a Mac fan but Apple biz model is becoming very anti-technolgy. They seem to simply desire people to purchase a new machine every 2 years. To all you older people that have used Macs for some time, think about the way they were made...not like to cheap an flimsy way thaey are today. I have a BRAND NEW black MacBook. I have replaced this 3 times!! The "paint" coating was peeling, bad pixels, bad speaker, and the case began to open. I love this machine...but it is NOT made to last...not mor than 2yrs!!

I am beginning to desire an Apple competitor. Apple has no competition and they are making some BAD moves.

Best Regards,
-Asagai

You have a 400 mhz G3. I don't think Apple asking you to use a 600 mhz G3 over a 400 mhz G3 when both machines are pretty old to begin with is exactly an evil sales tactic. So your machine can run the camera fine. It probably can't decompress video very well from a stream, which is required for iChat AV chat. I'm betting that that's the reason your machine is below the requirements, it has nothing to do with actually using the camera itself.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You commented on how Apple never released drivers for the GPU, so I responded with a solution for getting an OS X friendly GPU. If you're just using it as a backup server, GPU driver problems aren't really a problem.

Besides, that's why the iMac shipped with OS 9. If you need the older hardware to run, boot into 9. Even when OS X came along those iMacs were getting long in the tooth.

Except apple claimed those iMacs were built to be OSX ready. That was one of their selling points.

[Eug]

The G3 is just about useless for H.264 encoding and decoding (since it's heavily dependent on Altivec), and iChat in Tiger uses H.264.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Except apple claimed those iMacs were built to be OSX ready. That was one of their selling points.

I don't think Apple ever sold those iMacs under the claim that they were OS X ready. OS X was still Rhapsody when those machines were made.

[centerchannel68]

Think what you want.

[Philip J. Fry]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I don't think Apple ever sold those iMacs under the claim that they were OS X ready. OS X was still Rhapsody when those machines were made.

Yes they did. When Aqua was introduced in 2000, Steve said that all 'current' machines would run OS X. Current at the time of course, but still, those machines ran some variant of the Mac OS (8.6 or later).

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Philip J. Fry 

Yes they did. When Aqua was introduced in 2000, Steve said that all 'current' machines would run OS X. Current at the time of course, but still, those machines ran some variant of the Mac OS (8.6 or later).

The iMacs at that time shipped with Rage 128's. Actually all iMacs since October 1999 shipped with Rage 128's.

[Philip J. Fry]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The iMacs at that time shipped with Rage 128's. Actually all iMacs since October 1999 shipped with Rage 128's.

Well then, they were current machines at the time of Jobs' keynote address then, correct?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The G3 is just about useless for H.264 encoding and decoding (since it's heavily dependent on Altivec), and iChat in Tiger uses H.264.

For video chatting. Otherwise iChat works just fine on G3s.

[asagai]

My problem is the idea that they are pushing to consumers, the idea that we have to buy a new machine every 2yrs. Again, just look at the quality of Apple's products today. They are designed to last for only that time span. This is my problem! Trying to trick consumers into the mentality that we need a new machine every 48 months!!

-Asagai

[macintologist]

If you stick with the current software on your current machine you might not need a new one so badly. But when it comes to the internet, things change.

Hop on to an old iMac, boot into OS 9, run IE 5, and try surfing the net. Compared to 1998, the net is a lot more processor intensive and complex. So unless you're not gonna surf the net, you CAN stick with your old computer, just don't run newer software on it.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by asagai 

My problem is the idea that they are pushing to consumers, the idea that we have to buy a new machine every 2yrs. Again, just look at the quality of Apple's products today. They are designed to last for only that time span. This is my problem! Trying to trick consumers into the mentality that we need a new machine every 48 months!!

-Asagai

I'm not sure what you think you're talking about. I bought my computer in 2003 and it's still running just fine. It runs all the current software, and not at 'acceptable' levels, it runs it the way you want it to run. Apple computers, in general, last for a very long time. Usually 5 to 6 years. That's far longer than you're likely to get from any of the competitors. Of course they want you to buy a new computer more often than that, they're a business. But are you really so gullible as to fall for the ads? Buy a new computer when you need a new computer. Mine's going just fine, 4 years later. I expect to use it for at least another year and probably more.

[cSurfr]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Gads, what's the rush. Alright, alright, I now declare the G3's obsolete.

Are you happy now. Take you G3 and put it in the trash, and buy a G5 ASAP.

G5? That's sooooo 2006

[11011001]

Originally Posted by asagai 

I have an 400Mhz B&W and there is nothing wrong with that machine. It has ran every version of OS X, has DVD, FireWire, USB...Thee is nothing wrong with this machine.

I posted A WHILE BACK, how when Apple stated that the iCam would not work with machine that were below 600Mhz, that it actually does work WITHOUT A FLAW OR PERFORMANCE HIT...I also showed how to do so.

Apple has been so ANTI-TECHNOLOGY, and pro stock returns that it is making me vommit. Again, I am a Mac fan but Apple biz model is becoming very anti-technolgy. They seem to simply desire people to purchase a new machine every 2 years. To all you older people that have used Macs for some time, think about the way they were made...not like to cheap an flimsy way thaey are today. I have a BRAND NEW black MacBook. I have replaced this 3 times!! The "paint" coating was peeling, bad pixels, bad speaker, and the case began to open. I love this machine...but it is NOT made to last...not mor than 2yrs!!

I am beginning to desire an Apple competitor. Apple has no competition and they are making some BAD moves.

Best Regards,
-Asagai

That kind of philosophy would basically stop the industry in its tracks.

The features in leopard require faster hardware, and hardware with modern features (for instance in the GPU). If they dropped those features, what incentive is there to upgrade? Indeed, what difference would there be between OS X 10.4 and OS X 10.5? What incentive would there be to upgrade. Not a lot.

This is asking the technologically impossible of Apple.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Philip J. Fry 

Well then, they were current machines at the time of Jobs' keynote address then, correct?

Correct. So therefore the iMacs shipping at the time of Job's keynote were fully supported with graphics acceleration.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The G3 is just about useless for H.264 encoding and decoding (since it's heavily dependent on Altivec), and iChat in Tiger uses H.264.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

For video chatting. Otherwise iChat works just fine on G3s.

Well, obviously. H.264 is a video codec, and video is what makes iChat actually interesting.

However, it is note that if you want to host an audio-only conference of more than just a few people, you'd still want a G4.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

If you stick with the current software on your current machine you might not need a new one so badly. But when it comes to the internet, things change.

Hop on to an old iMac, boot into OS 9, run IE 5, and try surfing the net. Compared to 1998, the net is a lot more processor intensive and complex. So unless you're not gonna surf the net, you CAN stick with your old computer, just don't run newer software on it.

iCab is still being developed for OS 9

http://icab.de/dl.php